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geekhack Community => Keyboards => Topic started by: Brendan on Sun, 01 April 2012, 15:44:46

Title: Dim KBC Poker LED's
Post by: Brendan on Sun, 01 April 2012, 15:44:46
I've tried rebooting, a different USB port as well as different cables but still the LED's for the FN layer arrow keys function are half as bright as the other LEDs. This problem just started occurring months after I took delivery of my Poker, seems like it's not getting enough voltage? There was also a period when the LEDs would flash or not even turn on.

Brendan
Title: Dim KBC Poker LED's
Post by: net2522 on Sun, 01 April 2012, 15:49:02
Might be LED itself that has a problem.
Title: Dim KBC Poker LED's
Post by: Brendan on Sun, 01 April 2012, 16:33:34
All 5? The Esc and Cap Locks keys are fine though.
Title: Dim KBC Poker LED's
Post by: mkawa on Sun, 01 April 2012, 16:36:09
that's pretty odd. do you have a multimeter?
Title: Dim KBC Poker LED's
Post by: Brendan on Sun, 01 April 2012, 16:45:37
Yeah I was going to probe them when I have time. Left a message with Vortex as well, see what they say.
Title: Dim KBC Poker LED's
Post by: tp4tissue on Sun, 01 April 2012, 17:23:53
Quote from: Brendan;563766
Yeah I was going to probe them when I have time. Left a message with Vortex as well, see what they say.

Do they just appear dim from certain angles, supply pics.
Title: Dim KBC Poker LED's
Post by: Brendan on Sun, 01 April 2012, 17:40:31
No, I took the caps off and compared, they are maybe 50% of  the brightness of the other LEDs. Will take pics after a reboot, as they are completely off right now.
Title: Dim KBC Poker LED's
Post by: net2522 on Sun, 01 April 2012, 17:44:25
similar to this pic. this was from race 75%  someone said about the led quality.
(http://geekhack.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=41257&d=1329814525)
Title: Dim KBC Poker LED's
Post by: Brendan on Sun, 01 April 2012, 18:26:49
Overall pic:

[ATTACH=CONFIG]46838[/ATTACH]

Escape and Caps Lock:

[ATTACH=CONFIG]46839[/ATTACH]

FN Arrows (Dim):

[ATTACH=CONFIG]46840[/ATTACH]

FN Arrows (Half brightness):

[ATTACH=CONFIG]46841[/ATTACH]

The lighting isn't consistent and keeps on flickering or worse, turns off.

Brendan
Title: Dim KBC Poker LED's
Post by: tp4tissue on Sun, 01 April 2012, 21:36:27
Quote from: Brendan;563856
Overall pic:

(Attachment) 46838[/ATTACH]

Escape and Caps Lock:

(Attachment) 46839[/ATTACH]

FN Arrows (Dim):

(Attachment) 46840[/ATTACH]

FN Arrows (Half brightness):

(Attachment) 46841[/ATTACH]

The lighting isn't consistent and keeps on flickering or worse, turns off.

Brendan

Ah, definitly check with the multimeter..

if the voltage is lower than the brighter led, look for a resistor, and see if a replacement would help

Unless they don't bother setting up resistors for these keyboards leds anymore.
Title: Dim KBC Poker LED's
Post by: Brendan on Sun, 01 April 2012, 21:53:19
Confirmed with multimeter (voltages across LEDs):

ESC Key = ~2.823 V
Caps Lock = ~2.822 V
Space Bar = ~2.666 V
Left Arrow = ~2.662 V
Down Arrow = ~2.663 V
Right Arrow = ~2.666 V
Up Arrow = ~2.666 V

Bear in mind I have NO idea what the specs are for the LEDs, but there is enough of a drop to be significant.

Brendan
Title: Dim KBC Poker LED's
Post by: Brendan on Sun, 01 April 2012, 21:58:30
Just measured a drop to 2.496V, I'd say the brightness level is similar to my 'dim' ref pic. One more thing, I used a Fluke 87 to measure the voltages, while not as accurate as bench meters, I'd say its more than enough for this task. Looks like I'm SOL, board is multilayered, can't check traces, nor can I replace any one component.
Title: Dim KBC Poker LED's
Post by: mkawa on Sun, 01 April 2012, 21:59:33
the flickering is what worries me. can you follow the traces back from the affected LEDs to the controller and check for cold joints along the way?
Title: Dim KBC Poker LED's
Post by: Brendan on Sun, 01 April 2012, 22:06:52
I can't even do that, the PCB is multilayered, there are no naked traces, nor are the traces silkscreened on.
Title: Dim KBC Poker LED's
Post by: tp4tissue on Sun, 01 April 2012, 22:12:38
Quote from: Brendan;564137
I can't even do that, the PCB is multilayered, there are no naked traces, nor are the traces silkscreened on.

I think they probably daisy chained a bunch of the leds to a single resistor.  so they won't have a single resistor for each LED

You PROBABLY have to only replace a single or maybe 2 resistors..

can you find ANY of the resistors??


Because it is unlikely that so many leds are bad together. so there is likely a single root cause..

You could actually replace ALL the resistors if you like, since then you could be sure that takes them out of the equation..
but, this is only possible if they're NOT doing one resistor per led, .
Title: Dim KBC Poker LED's
Post by: mkawa on Sun, 01 April 2012, 22:15:49
ok. my guess is that there is a cold joint either between that bank of LEDs and ground or that bank of LEDs and the keyboard controller. i think the only other possibility is that the keyboard controller is plain bad (but that seems less likely). if it were mine, i'd try to reflow everything i could find between these points. hopefully vortex can help you though.
Title: Dim KBC Poker LED's
Post by: Brendan on Sun, 01 April 2012, 22:18:59
I could only trace these two resistors directly connected to the LEDs, unless I can find a schematic or more infor, that is all I have (see the third pic for what I mean):

R15 (ESC) = 2.184V (voltage drop for the resistor?)
R13 (Space Bar) = 1.742V (voltage drop for the resistor?)

(http://img593.imageshack.us/img593/1998/r0026699.jpg)

(http://img515.imageshack.us/img515/8268/r0026698.jpg)

(http://img210.imageshack.us/img210/6735/r0026700.jpg)

Brendan
Title: Dim KBC Poker LED's
Post by: Brendan on Sun, 01 April 2012, 22:22:22
I am going to  try and see if I can get a reply from Vortex before and reflowing.
Title: Dim KBC Poker LED's
Post by: mkawa on Sun, 01 April 2012, 22:36:47
good call, and good luck!
Title: Dim KBC Poker LED's
Post by: Brendan on Sun, 01 April 2012, 23:00:39
Quote from: Vortex Keyboard
yes, If you want change Res(R13) , maybe now is 1.5K ohm , you can change to 330 Ohm (0603 size)

Hmm?
Title: Dim KBC Poker LED's
Post by: Brendan on Sun, 01 April 2012, 23:06:53
Yep, confirmed again. I guess I will try that and void my warranty in the name of flickering LEDs.
Title: Dim KBC Poker LED's
Post by: Brendan on Sun, 01 April 2012, 23:47:56
Well fvck. That's just great, seems like I'll be a pro at replacing LEDs and SMF's on my Poker throughout its lifetime. ()%*@&(%@*.
Title: Dim KBC Poker LED's
Post by: limmy on Sun, 01 April 2012, 23:49:43
My poker also had a LED problem in that cluster -- a single LED failure affected all four LEDs in the cluster (space bar and arrows).

Shortly after I swapped stems on a right shift key, the LEDs in the cluster didn't light up. I replaced the right shift key LED with working LED and it worked fine. It was an easy fix because I knew which of the four may have gone wrong.

I don't know much about resistor and how led brightness are controlled, but I know the cluster is bound together from my experience. If it worked fine and suddenly didn't work, then it may be possible some of the LEDs have gone bad.

I hope it helped.
Title: Dim KBC Poker LED's
Post by: metafour on Sun, 01 April 2012, 23:54:31
I just took some of those keys off my Poker and my LEDs seem to follow the same pattern of dimness. My Poker is pretty new. Design flaw?
Title: Dim KBC Poker LED's
Post by: Brendan on Sun, 01 April 2012, 23:56:43
Looks like I have to pick one LED to try out of the 5, which one shall it be?

(http://img52.imageshack.us/img52/4421/img1069wr.jpg)

They are incredibly dim now, almost off. I'm going to talk to Vortex again, I recommend you tell them about it on their Facebook page (Vortex Keyboard).
Title: Dim KBC Poker LED's
Post by: limmy on Sun, 01 April 2012, 23:57:34
Quote from: ripster;564261
Another reason not to do that  crazy lubing of MX stems.

Breaks stuff limmy!

I think it was static discharge that fried the LED.. Cheap synthetic carpet + dry environment = ESD danger!

The stem swap was well before I tried to lube MX stuff. Thanks for the concern though. I have to admit. Modding is not recommended for everyone.
Title: Dim KBC Poker LED's
Post by: Awful on Sun, 01 April 2012, 23:59:08
mine are the same way, my poker is like 2 weeks old. Good thing I dont EVER have any of the led locks on.
Title: Dim KBC Poker LED's
Post by: Brendan on Mon, 02 April 2012, 00:03:34
I mostly have them off, but arrow keys are fairly useful in Excel, so...

Post on their Facebook page and get them to change the design. poor LED binning/quality and crappy resistors are ruining the keyboards.
Title: Dim KBC Poker LED's
Post by: metafour on Mon, 02 April 2012, 00:05:25
Quote from: Brendan;564278
I mostly have them off, but arrow keys are fairly useful in Excel, so...

I don't use them in spreadsheets. Universal vim movement keys FTW! ;)
Title: Dim KBC Poker LED's
Post by: limmy on Mon, 02 April 2012, 00:07:54
Is the keyboard attached to a USB hub? I think under powered keyboard is one thing to rule out before doing anything with soldering iron.
Title: Dim KBC Poker LED's
Post by: metafour on Mon, 02 April 2012, 00:09:34
Quote from: limmy;564285
Is the keyboard attached to a USB hub? I think under powered keyboard is one thing to rule out before doing anything with soldering iron.

Don't listen to him. Get a bottle of bourbon and a soldering iron. I'm sure you'll have that Poker "fixed" in no time at all. ;)
Title: Dim KBC Poker LED's
Post by: Brendan on Mon, 02 April 2012, 00:10:35
Well everything is technically attached to a hub, but no I have tried my monitor's USB ports, the back I/O panel ports, as well as the front panel ports, same flickering/dimness.
Title: Dim KBC Poker LED's
Post by: Brendan on Mon, 02 April 2012, 00:11:33
Quote from: metafour;564288
Don't listen to him. Get a bottle of bourbon and a soldering iron. I'm sure you'll have that Poker "fixed" in no time at all. ;)

Scotch will have to do, should show Vortex what happened after my 'repair' session.
Title: Dim KBC Poker LED's
Post by: metafour on Mon, 02 April 2012, 00:14:00
Um sir, step away from the soldering iron. This can only go downhill from here.

Mine are dim but I don't really notice any flickering. But I seriously never use them.

I have Ctrl-[ mapped to escape and Ctrl-H, Ctrl-J, Ctrl-K, Ctrl-L mapped to arrow keys.
Title: Dim KBC Poker LED's
Post by: limmy on Mon, 02 April 2012, 00:15:59
I see. Good luck with the soldering iron then. It was pretty hard for me to desolder the LEDs, so be prepared to be frustrated if you are not experienced. If you happened to know tips, please share them with us.
Title: Dim KBC Poker LED's
Post by: metafour on Mon, 02 April 2012, 00:17:29
Quote from: limmy;564300
If you happened to know tips, please share them with us.

The only tip I have for situations like these is prayer, meditation or divine intervention.
Title: Dim KBC Poker LED's
Post by: Brendan on Mon, 02 April 2012, 00:18:57
Probably going to try and grab the LED with some soft faced pliers then suck out all the solder and finally heat up both leads at the same time while;e allowing the board to fall free (or something to that effect).
Title: Dim KBC Poker LED's
Post by: mkawa on Mon, 02 April 2012, 00:33:45
no, stop! jumper the pads with some 24+ga hookup wire and put a small valued vishay 1% metal film (these are particularly small for through-pin parts), in parallel with the SMT resistor.
Title: Dim KBC Poker LED's
Post by: Brendan on Mon, 02 April 2012, 00:38:14
Well Vortex wanted me to replace the SMD altogether, if I was going the LED route, I'd do what I posted above. I don't have a Vishay handy, will have to search for one. What value? To match the 330, I'd need a 420.98 ohm, round that down to 420.

http://www.digikey.ca/product-detail/en/CMF55422R00FHEB/CMF422HFTR-ND/1553970

Reasonably close (422 ohms)
Title: Dim KBC Poker LED's
Post by: mkawa on Mon, 02 April 2012, 00:44:33
it doesn't have to be a vishay, was just the first thing that came to mind since i have a ton of them and they're really tiny for through-hole resistors.

re: value, anywhere near 300o is probably fine. it doesn't have to be super precise unless you're really anal about having the lower right and upper left LEDs be equally bright.

but i wouldn't pull the existing resistor off, personally. in my experience, it's really hard to pull SMT components off with hobbyist gear without destroying them and often doing some damage to the pads.
Title: Dim KBC Poker LED's
Post by: Awful on Mon, 02 April 2012, 00:58:50
So, not knowing **** about stuff like this. How feasible would it be to throw LEDS on the entire board?
Title: Dim KBC Poker LED's
Post by: mkawa on Mon, 02 April 2012, 02:33:41
this is one of those situations where if you don't know, you shouldn't try it.
Title: Dim KBC Poker LED's
Post by: Brendan on Mon, 02 April 2012, 22:45:05
Getting some resistors in tomorrow, crossing my fingers.
Title: Dim KBC Poker LED's
Post by: mkawa on Tue, 03 April 2012, 00:16:25
good luck! be careful with the SMT pads. use a low wattage iron, generous flux, and some fine desoldering braid if you have it.

edit: oh whoops, i told you not to desolder. lol! just reflow the joint and stick some fine hookup wire into it while the joint is molten.
Title: Dim KBC Poker LED's
Post by: tp4tissue on Wed, 04 April 2012, 02:35:44
Quote from: mkawa;565361
good luck! be careful with the SMT pads. use a low wattage iron, generous flux, and some fine desoldering braid if you have it.

edit: oh whoops, i told you not to desolder. lol! just reflow the joint and stick some fine hookup wire into it while the joint is molten.

You freakin newb,, HIGH POWER is easier, in all cases, the longer you use a low power iron and hold it there the more chance you'll damage the components.

for switches,

The contacts in the switch is a metal splint that goes into the switch housing, of which is plastic. So, if the solder doesn't melt right away, there's a chance you'll heat up the inside of the switch, risking melting inside the switch, along the metal contacts.

for resistors,

cleaner solder joints, the less time you hold the iron there

have you noticed the joints come out all discolored and cloudy if you hold it there too long?  but if you do it fast with superman precision, it comes out shiny..
Title: Dim KBC Poker LED's
Post by: dippingriz on Wed, 04 April 2012, 07:00:42
Curious as well.

Quote from: Awful;564357
So, not knowing **** about stuff like this. How feasible would it be to throw LEDS on the entire board?
Title: Dim KBC Poker LED's
Post by: Brendan on Wed, 04 April 2012, 07:34:11
Guys I know how to solder, I'm not an idiot, this isn't the first time I'm working with SMD's.
Title: Dim KBC Poker LED's
Post by: tp4tissue on Wed, 04 April 2012, 11:27:44
Quote from: Brendan;566450
Guys I know how to solder, I'm not an idiot, this isn't the first time I'm working with SMD's.

well did you fix it yet.. I am curious as I am thinking about buying one, but only if this problem can be remedies, don't mind the work,,,,,,,,,, i mean nothing's ever perfect,,
Title: Dim KBC Poker LED's
Post by: mkawa on Wed, 04 April 2012, 11:31:33
Quote from: Brendan;566450
Guys I know how to solder, I'm not an idiot, this isn't the first time I'm working with SMD's.
lol, ok. good stuff. let us know how it goes.
Title: Dim KBC Poker LED's
Post by: Brendan on Fri, 13 April 2012, 20:42:34
Alright guys, tried both solutions and...








..The LED's are still flickering.

I tried the parallel resistor first, then replaced it with a lower resistance SMD to no avail. I guess that leaves only the LED's themselves. Vortex has abysmal customer service, just look at my comments to them recently and their replies.

Brendan
Title: Dim KBC Poker LED's
Post by: mkawa on Fri, 13 April 2012, 22:38:55
vortex is a very small outfit. they're good guys, but they're just enthusiasts like us, quite frankly. sorry to hear about the LEDs :(

on the upside, the LEDs are easier to replace than the SMD resistor you replaced
Title: Dim KBC Poker LED's
Post by: Brendan on Sun, 15 April 2012, 21:50:51
I understand but they act like it's not a problem, that it should be fixed in the Pure. Well, I don't happen to own a Pure but rather a Poker and I feel like if there's no support for old models at all.
Title: Dim KBC Poker LED's
Post by: mkawa on Mon, 16 April 2012, 00:06:22
my feeling is that until they find a US distributor with the ability to repair units, that actually will be the case :(
Title: Dim KBC Poker LED's
Post by: net2522 on Mon, 16 April 2012, 00:11:45
Did you try to change LED. I heard they're said is a quality of the LED that's the problem.
Title: Dim KBC Poker LED's
Post by: Brendan on Wed, 18 April 2012, 20:31:53
That's odd as it's ONLY the arrow keys that are affected, and all 5 stay the same brightness. The escape key and cap locks functions fine, it's too big of a coincidence for me to believe that the LED's are to blame. Here's what I got back from them:

Quote
Vortex Keyboard

    hi, I think we got 2 way can solve your LED problem ,

    1 . I can send spare parts (LED) to HK seller, and he can send spare parts to you , but shipping cost you have to pay ( only HK seller to you)

    2. send your keyboard to HK seller , fix keyboard and return to you ,

    so , how do you think about that , or do you want try Pure ??

What should I do?
Title: Dim KBC Poker LED's
Post by: mkawa on Wed, 18 April 2012, 23:16:55
tell them you want to try a pure, and have them send the pure to me ;)

but really, i'd avoid 2. 1 should actually be pretty inexpensive. i get stuff shipped from HK all the time. it's pretty cheap.
Title: Dim KBC Poker LED's
Post by: Brendan on Mon, 30 April 2012, 23:19:01
I'm waiting for the distributor to contact my dad in HK, but so far, nothing.