about the separation of "vendor" GB into the separate subforum....

[Matt3o]

when a group of enthusiasts team together and organize a GB to get a product that it wouldn't be available to them otherwise, that is a GB. There's no turn back, no margin, just pain blood and sweat.

Anything else is commercial. I don't see the gray area.

If you are an enthusiast who has a very nice hand crafted product and you sell it to the community, you are a vendor. Even if that is not your main activity. Even if you make very little profit from it.

My point is that I see absolutely no harm in putting all (vendor or not) time-based purchases (aka GB) in one place so they are easier to find. That's all. But, like I said, DSA Granite did well even in the sub-forum, so evidently if the product is good people find it anyway.

why not a "community GB" AND "vendors GB" sub-forums?

[mkawa]

point in case: feng is a vendor but also runs community-oriented GBs. BL is an artisan vendor but also runs community-oriented GBs. where do we draw the line? that's the gray area.

if you want to get nuts and bolts technical, anyone who runs a GB becomes a vendor for the time they are running the GB. they take payments, fulfill items. it's kind of a mess. the problem is really answering the following question concisely: "what is a community GB?"

[Matt3o]

point in case: feng is a vendor but also runs community-oriented GBs. BL is an artisan vendor but also runs community-oriented GBs. where do we draw the line? that's the gray area.

A vendor may organize a no-profit/community GB. I see no harm in that. Those GBs should go in the "public" GB area.

if you want to get nuts and bolts technical, anyone who runs a GB becomes a vendor for the time they are running the GB. they take payments, fulfill items. it's kind of a mess. the problem is really answering the following question concisely: "what is a community GB?"

if the organizer takes no direct advantage from the sell, I guess?

Anyway, if it's so hard to understand what is what, this is just down to the moderators' gut. That's fine by me.

[SpAmRaY]

At what point do we discuss how people profit off of the 'community'.

I mean without geekhack SP's system wouldn't even have a chance.

How much does it really cost make a key cap?

Seems like a lot of commercialization around here lately. Definitely need more transparency and accountability.

Nothing wrong with people making a profit but don't last us think favors are being done when we are being fleeced.

[mkawa]

point in case: feng is a vendor but also runs community-oriented GBs. BL is an artisan vendor but also runs community-oriented GBs. where do we draw the line? that's the gray area.

A vendor may organize a no-profit/community GB. I see no harm in that. Those GBs should go in the "public" GB area.

the issue of profit is touchy. most community GBs end up costing the organizers a ton of money, even if they make a profit on paper. once you amortize for time spent, customer service, etc. etc. etc. and GB organizers often grab a few parts at the high tiers to try to break even. if some cases they can ultimately make a small profit using lots of these little tricks. so i don't think money is a good way to distinguish between community GBs and otherwise.

in response to spamray, commercial vendors need to make a profit, or they will go out of business. the community really has to decide whether it's being fleeced or not by commercial vendors. mod team has been debating this behind the scenes but we also welcome user feedback. we definitely tend to be conservative about this though. our community is very unique in that it's relatively large but also very open, unbiased and not filled with advertising. we really work hard to preserve that, and i feel the community itself helps a ton in that respect.

with the smaller vendors, artisans, etc. though, that's where it becomes touchy and kind of weird. i think we need a pretty extensive discussion on how we want to treat commercial concerns and the marketplace in general in this community. remember that marketing for a commercial vendor is equivalent to money. my previous efforts have focused on allowing marketing, for example, but only when the entire community can benefit from the quid pro quo. i really think that the making CM storm cases subforum has been a great example of that. i'm able to get topcases to people basically for free, and they get to go to town on them, so even though they are publicizing the brand, they get to add their own creativity and make it their own.

[Krogenar]

i don't think money is a good way to distinguish between community GBs and otherwise.

I don't see why the differences between these groupbuys matters. What public good is being served by making the distinction? If the argument is that SP is 'fleecing' the community by making a profit from the groupbuy, that argument falls apart because SP has made a profit off every previous groupbuy they serviced. So, what's the problem? I think this is something new and people are worried.

Right now SP is the only vendor (as far as I know) that is willing to handle the logistical dog work using their website -- but I have a feeling that other suppliers might follow suit. The policy should be that every organizer state the arrangement with the vendor in the original posting. Then, if people feel that they are being exploited by anyone, for any reason, or in any way, they can make that decision there and then. And all the groupbuys are in one place for review, not scattered around the forum. Yeah, this is a new development and some people might be scared of it, like a big wave coming. We can either try to build a wall against it and be crushed, or we can surf it. I say we surf. If this is a good development (and if the last two GBs handled by PMK are any indication, it is) then we can't actually hope to stop it -- but why would we want to stop something that gives everyone what they want.

[mkawa]

exploitation isn't an issue that determines where the thread goes.

first, i like the suggestion that everyone state their interests in any sale, mass or otherwise. however, if that statement is "i designed this set, and SP will be vending it", it goes into SP's vendor forum, period. it's SP vending SP product. bam, vendor forum.

however, if the statement is "i designed this set, and will be proxy buying a large number of copies from GMK, who will be manufacturing, vending directly to me, at which point i will fulfill", then it's proxy buyer's club situation with all the legal issues involved. that's a group buy.

as far as "getting fleeced" is concerned, mod team doesn't particularly want _anyone_ to be "fleeced" here. so that's not ever going to determine where threads go. if a party seems to be or is actively stealing from the community, the community will probably want to make the choice not to be stolen from.

[Neebio]

however, if the statement is "i designed this set, and will be proxy buying a large number of copies from GMK, who will be manufacturing, vending directly to me, at which point i will fulfill", then it's proxy buyer's club situation with all the legal issues involved. that's a group buy.

Sounds like you have a vendor on your hands there.  In that instance, you should set them up with a vendor sub-forum and segregate them out of the group buys section.

But seriously, the way I see it, you have two cases:

1) Somebody creates a design (as stated, it doesn't matter who), and they go to a manufacturer, get a quote, collect money, pay, receive, sort, and ship out the product.

2) Somebody creates a design (again, doesn't matter who), and they go to a manufacturer who then agrees to release a quote, collect money, sort, and ship out the product.

Differences:

- who collects the money is different.
- who sorts and ships the product is different.

Both are timed purchases, with a minimum order quantity requirement, based on the idea that a group of people will band together to make a purchase possible that would not have been otherwise, due to said minimum quantity requirement.

In both the above cases, there is a group of people banding together to make a purchase possible because of some minimum quantity requirement.  If in either case, not enough people order in the allotted time, no production takes place.  Hence, both of these cases are group buys.

Now, if both of these cases are group buys, why is one flavour of group buy being segregated? I am having great difficulty in understanding any rational as to why a manufacturer collecting money and assuming additional risk in place of an individual is reason to push a particular group buy out of a sub-forum dedicated to just that.

As a consumer, it is only a logical expectation that if a group buy sub-forum exists, that it would encompass all of the group buys.  As a consumer, I care not if a manufacturer is the one to collect the money for a group buy as opposed to an individual, especially if I am made aware of this in the forum posting.  In fact, as a consumer, I would prefer it!  If something goes south on the group buy for whatever reason, it would be far easier to receive a refund or compensation from a manufacturer than from an individual.  Companies have insurance for the exact risks that an individual normally takes on when they organize a group buy.  This is an undisputable benefit to having a manufacturer handle the money from the start.

Why group buys are being segregated according to who collects the money first is beyond me.  I feel it's completely illogical and discriminatory.  The nature of a group buy is for consumers to come together and purchase a bulk order of something so that they can get what they want and enjoy it.  Why the administration and moderation team has chosen to make this more difficult based on some nonsensical demonization of a manufacturer handling money and fulfilling sorting and shipping directly is beyond my poor human understanding.

Profit is made by the manufacturer no matter what, so this cannot play a part in the decision.  This community of consumers orders and receives a product that they choose by collecting orders in bulk to meet a minimum quantity in both cases as well, so this cannot play a part in the decision either.  So what's left to affect the decision to segregate?  The fact that a manufacturer assumes additional risk and effort?

From where I sit, a group buy sub-forum by definition of name should exist to hold group buys, of which both of the above cases are by definition.  Discrimination against group buys should be left to the consumer who is looking to make a purchase.  Allow us to be the ones to decide which group buys we take part in.  Segregating group buys and potentially removing a consumer's decision to enter into a group buy as a result of mis-categorization of a forum posting is illogical and wrong.

I leave you with the above in hopes that you take an honest and real look at why group buys are being segregated.

edit: grammar

[SpAmRaY]

however, if the statement is "i designed this set, and will be proxy buying a large number of copies from GMK, who will be manufacturing, vending directly to me, at which point i will fulfill", then it's proxy buyer's club situation with all the legal issues involved. that's a group buy.

So IF I were to buy 250 sets of some design I come up with from GMK say for $80 a set then come here and offer them for $120 a set is that a group buy?

[Krogenar]

however, if the statement is "i designed this set, and will be proxy buying a large number of copies from GMK, who will be manufacturing, vending directly to me, at which point i will fulfill", then it's proxy buyer's club situation with all the legal issues involved. that's a group buy.

So IF I were to buy 250 sets of some design I come up with from GMK say for $80 a set then come here and offer them for $120 a set is that a group buy?

Are you suggesting that the person buying the 250 sets buys them first and then offers them for sale? That would be just a sale -- the product is already made. If they're trying to get payments from 250 people, talking to people to gauge interest (and tweaking the design accordingly) in order to reach a MOQ that would sound like more of a groupbuy to me. The qualities that define a groupbuy for me are:

Community Involvement - who wants ISO? Also, screw you Ergodoxians, lol!
Tiered Pricing - we reach this amount, the price drops.
Time Window - the groupbuy period ends on such-and-such time.
Unique Item - this hasn't been seen before.

Not every groupbuy has all of these elements, but these feel like the hallmarks of "groupbuys."

If a manufacturer declared it would manufacture keycaps made from unobtanium at various price tiers depending on how many people signed on to buy them by a certain deadline, that, to me, is still a groupbuy. It's not particularly "communal" if the manufacturer doesn't take input from the community, but it's still a groupbuy. Whomever handles the logistics and design feels immaterial to me.

From where I sit, a group buy sub-forum by definition of name should exist to hold group buys, of which both of the above cases are by definition.

(emphasis added by me)

I agree. The argument that the SP-sponsored groupbuys are not actually groupbuys because the money is being collected by SP feels pointlessly legalistic, and the real reason for the distinction hasn't been made clear.

Discrimination against group buys should be left to the consumer who is looking to make a purchase.

Well said. We should (as a community) require transparency; that should be sufficient.

[Mooby]

Hiding group buys in different subforums simply makes them harder to find, especially for newer members. I don't understand how that's supposed to help the community in any way.

[IvanIvanovich]

I do not like this either. It makes it too easy to miss out on things as I very rarely even look at vendor subforums. If they are running it like a proper groupbuy I don't see any reason to not allow them ('vendors') to use groupbuy section.
Groupbuy section - any items that are 'pre-order' at real cost by pool of forum member buyers in order to be custom manufactured that would not get made at all otherwise.
Vendor section - items that vendor had made upfront on their own bought by them wholly and sells likely for profit.

If vendor wants to put groupbuys in their own vendor section so hardly anyone notices it... well that is their decision.

[Photoelectric]

If you're interested in keeping tabs on vendor group buys, you could always subscribe to their subforums, using the "Notify" button, to get notifications about new threads created there.

Group buys usually run for at least 2-4 weeks or longer, so you could also just click on those forums once every few weeks to see what's new.

[riotonthebay]

I went through a significant portion of this thread, and I apologize if I missed this, but: what's to be gained by this distinction again?

[StylinGreymon]

I went through a significant portion of this thread, and I apologize if I missed this, but: what's to be gained by this distinction again?

This is what  I've been struggling to understand for quite a while.
This distinction is clearly very important to the mods, but for the life of me, I can't see why.

Maybe to generate more traffic to other parts of the site?

If I want to see all of the different groupbuys I might want to participate in, I now have to go to a hell of a lot more places than just the Groupbuy section.

[Matt3o]

as far as I understand it's an ethical or deontological disambiguation. Regarding SP, GBs moderators don't see them as real GBs. In that regard I agree with them, but I also agree that all deals should go in the same cauldron, maybe with the only distinction between vendor and community based.

But moderators' mind seem pretty much settled on this and I stand to it.




PS: wow, I used deontological and cauldron in the same paragraph. I feel accomplished

[Krogenar]

I went through a significant portion of this thread, and I apologize if I missed this, but: what's to be gained by this distinction again?

I went through a significant portion of this thread, and I apologize if I missed this, but: what's to be gained by this distinction again?

This is what  I've been struggling to understand for quite a while.
This distinction is clearly very important to the mods, but for the life of me, I can't see why.

Maybe to generate more traffic to other parts of the site?

I completely agree that the motive for the ghettoization of vendor-sponsored groupbuys has not been adequately explained. It's been hinted at, I think, in little spurts of inadvertent candor, and we can try to guess why, but no mod had provided a satisfying answer. I don't think the policy is designed to make people visit other parts of the site. If that were so, we could put groupbuys in hidden places, like easter eggs!

as far as I understand it's an ethical or deontological disambiguation. Regarding SP, GBs moderators don't see them as real GBs. In that regard I agree with them, but I also agree that all deals should go in the same cauldron, maybe with the only distinction between vendor and community based.

Matt, you're probably right. The mods cannot openly declare that they're putting the vendor-sponsored groupbuys in the vendor ghetto for ethical reasons because that would imply that those groupbuys are somehow less ethical. Likely, it's more of a political decision -- there's animus against profit, and for whatever reason, the mods seem to owe some fealty to that attitude.

The deontological (rule-based, as opposed to results-based -- teleological -- ethical framework) reason given by mkawa boils down to: "groupbuys go in the groupbuy thread, and these are not groupbuys." This is unsatisfying to most people because these 'events' really, really look like groupbuys to any normal person. If the deontological explanation feels lawyerly and forced to you, that's because it is. Why are these 'events' not groupbuys? Well, because the mods have declared them not to be. Satisfied? Me neither.

The point of any forum is to make communication easier, right? This policy actively hinders communication.

It doesn't matter if the mods explain their motives -- just change the policy, please. The moderators deserve the benefit of the doubt, and in that case, they're not trying to keep vendor-sponsored groupbuys down so much as uplift the more traditional groupbuys. That's a fine intention, but if it necessitates twisting policy into nonsense, it should stop.

But moderators' mind seem pretty much settled on this and I stand to it.

I respect the mods' right to set policy; but I applaud their past willingness to not only listen to the community but to change policy according to that feedback. I'm hopeful that they will do it again in regards to this policy. The question remains: what community 'good' is achieved by this policy? The negative consequences are known to us -- how does this benefit the community? Legalese doesn't seem sufficient reason.

[ideus]

Mkawa has stated that this issue has been defined as it is. There is no space for debate anymore. However, I think a clear explanation of the motivations of the moderators for this policy is still needed. Two things should be addressed: Benefit for the community, and reasons to not allow some vendors GB in the GB subforum.

[Krogenar]

Mkawa has stated that this issue has been defined as it is. There is no space for debate anymore.

The discussion is over? Good to know. Mods can close and lock the thread, but that doesn't actually stop people from discussing anything.

However, I think a clear explanation of the motivations of the moderators for this policy is still needed. Two things should be addressed: Benefit for the community, and reasons to not allow some vendors GB in the GB subforum.

An explanation would be nice, but a better policy would be best of all. Their motives are almost certainly good; only the policy is flawed.

and reasons to not allow some vendors GB in the GB subforum.

No offense ideus, but get your facts straight.*** The Granite and Skull Squadron ... 'events' were not groupbuys, that's been established. They might have seemed to be "groupbuys" but they were really something else entirely. Something so different that they could not in good conscience be included with actual groupbuys.

*** I'm engaging in hyperbole to prove a point. You're absolutely right to call them groupbuys because that's what they are.

[Krogenar]

https://www.qwerkeys.co.uk/group-buys-interest-checks/

So now Qwerkeys is doing something similar to what SP has done. Assuming they implement it well, there would now be three different places to scan for groupbuys. Also, in an interesting wrinkle, Qwerkeys is also hosting the interest check for a DT keycap: https://www.qwerkeys.co.uk/group-buys-interest-checks/current-group-buys/deskthority-dt-logo-key-caps/

I think this is a wave coming at our community and we should be aiming to surf it, not stop it.

[riotonthebay]

https://www.qwerkeys.co.uk/group-buys-interest-checks/

So now Qwerkeys is doing something similar to what SP has done. Assuming they implement it well, there would now be three different places to scan for groupbuys.

I believe QWERkey's platform is quite different from SP's. They're not a manufacturer as well, and are providing an integrated platform for organizers that manages things like ordering, communication, and payment. The organizer is still responsible for managing manufacturing and distribution. However, this adds even more grey area to the mix.

I still do not see any benefits of the divide, and no one has responded to my inquiry 3 days ago.

[mkawa]

let me put this argument in context here.

the objection to this rule is that you have a click 6 extra times to see all the things that vendors are selling

[jdeblese]

let me put this argument in context here.

the objection to this rule is that you have a click 6 extra times to see all the things that vendors are selling

Honestly, that's a little disingenuous. The issue isn't the difficulty of checking the vendor forums, it's that people aren't aware that there are buys going on in boards other than the main marketplace GB board. The way it is now, you have to at least check all the vendor forums or you might miss something that you just weren't aware of before, and who knows where else unorthodox buys might end up in the future.

I can appreciate the argument for favoring fully-community-run buys, because we still want to encourage people to run buys that target companies who aren't yet consumer-oriented, the type of company that has to be dealt with as a group. It would be better if we could at least create a single marketplace "Vendor Buy" or "Miscelaneous Buy" board that groups together all other buys. That avoids searching for buys becoming an Easter egg hunt.

[Krogenar]

the objection to this rule is that you have a click 6 extra times to see all the things that vendors are selling

You're assuming people know that they have to look for other groupbuys in other subforums. They don't, necessarily.

[rowdy]

Ultimately this is a keyboard discussion forum and community.

The classifieds section was added as a convenience for members.

I see group buys as the same - otherwise we would all just go through Massdrop or something similar.

Most vendors announce group buys in their vendor forums here anyway - you can easily see when a new IC or GB is starting.  You can subscribe to their IC/GB thread to follow updates on the IC/GB (and hopefully an alert and astute vendor would update their thread often - see the Granite thread for a very good example).

I have a bunch of web pages I check every morning - if there is something I'm interested in, I add the page to my bookmarks folder.  Once I lose interest, or the event finishes, I simply delete the bookmark.

[Photoelectric]

This might help:
http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=57761

[mkawa]

I would like to add that this the above thread, starting it and keeping it up to date, is a completely voluntary effort that some of mod team has offered, including but not limited to photoelectric and hoffmanmyster. To that end, _I think_ they deserve quite a bit of thanks for setting this up for you guys.

[jdcarpe]

Regardless of my personal feelings as to what is and isn't considered a group buy, it has been decided that all "products" brought forth by Vendors and Artisans on this forum should be posted in their respective subforums. I really don't see where the confusion and malcontentedness is coming from, regarding where on the forum a thread is posted.

And to classify the Vendor and Artisan subforums as "ghettos" is an outright insult to the many talented Vendors and Artisans who are a part of our community.

Instead of browsing the forum in a rigid and focused manner, only clicking links to areas of ones own personal interest, one could always click the Unread or Spy links at the top, and view threads from various areas of the forum listed chronologically.

But that's just like, my opinion, man.

[SpAmRaY]

Regardless of my personal feelings as to what is and isn't considered a group buy, it has been decided that all "products" brought forth by Vendors and Artisans on this forum should be posted in their respective subforums. I really don't see where the confusion and malcontentedness is coming from, regarding where on the forum a thread is posted.

And to classify the Vendor and Artisan subforums as "ghettos" is an outright insult to the many talented Vendors and Artisans who are a part of our community.

Instead of browsing the forum in a rigid and focused manner, only clicking links to areas of ones own personal interest, one could always click the Unread or Spy links at the top, and view threads from various areas of the forum listed chronologically.

But that's just like, my opinion, man.

I don't think individual products are really being addressed here just group buys. 

But I do encourage people to browse places they might not regularly go to be sure and experience the entirety of geekhack 

[jdcarpe]

Group buys are a product, if you consider that a product can be a service rendered. Apparently Massdrop, SP, and possibly a few others consider them so.

[rowdy]

This might help:
http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=57761

Thanks for setting this up peeps!

reaper had one ages ago, and it was a great idea.

[Krogenar]

And to classify the Vendor and Artisan subforums as "ghettos" is an outright insult to the many talented Vendors and Artisans who are a part of our community.

FTFY.

This policy is an outright insult to common sense. It doesn't make sense, and you've said so yourself:

I think all community group buys should be placed in geekhack marketplace > group buys. If a commercial vendor is doing their own design, it should go under their vendor forum. But keycap group buys which were designed by community members or "non-commercial" vendors, regardless of the venue used to organize the group buy, should stay in the group buys forum.

mkawa has openly admitted that it will be more difficult for groupbuys (sorry, non-groupbuy events) to be found under their respective vendor subforums, and numerous people besides me have wondered at the necessity -- which still has not been explained, aside from 'it's the law.' or some torturous explanation of how these groupbuys aren't actually groupbuys.

This placement of what are obviously groupbuys in a place where they have to work harder to be noticed is why I use (and will continue to use) the word 'ghettoization'. The new kinds of groupbuys should not have a steeper climb to become noticed than other groupbuys, or if they must, explain why that benefits the community.

[jdcarpe]

And to classify the Vendor and Artisan subforums as "ghettos" is an outright insult to the many talented Vendors and Artisans who are a part of our community.

FTFY.

This policy is an outright insult to common sense. It doesn't make sense, and you've said so yourself:

I think all community group buys should be placed in geekhack marketplace > group buys. If a commercial vendor is doing their own design, it should go under their vendor forum. But keycap group buys which were designed by community members or "non-commercial" vendors, regardless of the venue used to organize the group buy, should stay in the group buys forum.

mkawa has openly admitted that it will be more difficult for groupbuys (sorry, non-groupbuy events) to be found under their respective vendor subforums, and numerous people besides me have wondered at the necessity -- which still has not been explained, aside from 'it's the law.' or some torturous explanation of how these groupbuys aren't actually groupbuys.

This placement of what are obviously groupbuys in a place where they have to work harder to be noticed is why I use (and will continue to use) the word 'ghettoization'. The new kinds of groupbuys should not have a steeper climb to become noticed than other groupbuys, or if they must, explain why that benefits the community.

And why did you cross out where I wrote Artisan? There is at least one major Artisan group, CtrlAlt, that runs many group buys here, and their threads will be placed in their Artisan subforum. So why is it you think Vendors are being singled out?

When the decision was first made to separate the Vendor GBs from community GBs, I was of the opinion that all GBs should be in the Group Buys forum. But after a while of seeing it in practice, I have found that it really makes no difference. At least not to me, in the way I use the forum.

Because visibility is NOT a problem. No offense to matt3o, but Granite just wasn't my thing. I don't like DSA, I don't like PBT, and I don't like dyesub. Those are my personal preferences. But I was presented with the thread every time I clicked the Unread link, when someone had posted a new post in the thread. Not only that, but I several people put links to the GB in their signature, which actually has had the effect of considering turning off my viewing of signatures altogether.

Let me put this here again, in case you missed it:

Instead of browsing the forum in a rigid and focused manner, only clicking links to areas of ones own personal interest, one could always click the Unread or Spy links at the top, and view threads from various areas of the forum listed chronologically.

[riotonthebay]

Isn't the necessity of signature billboards an indication that visibility remains a challenge? Did you always find signatures frustrating, or is this a new side effect of the new system?

I apologize if I seem contrarian, but I genuinely believe that we're worse off because of all this. I'd be happy to be convinced otherwise, but I'm not quite there yet

[jdcarpe]

Isn't the necessity of signature billboards an indication that visibility remains a challenge? Did you always find signatures frustrating, or is this a new side effect of the new system?

I apologize if I seem contrarian, but I genuinely believe that we're worse off because of all this. I'd be happy to be convinced otherwise, but I'm not quite there yet

I'm not convinced that the signature advertisements were any more than a "perceived" necessity. Is there any real evidence that any number of participants joined the group buy, and pushed it over the tipping point, due solely to an advertisement in someone's signature?

As to your other question, I'm usually amused by what people put in their signatures. It can show some of their personality or humor, whatever. But I just find the advertisements a bit of a nuisance.

[jdeblese]

I'm not convinced that the signature advertisements were any more than a "perceived" necessity. Is there any real evidence that any number of participants joined the group buy, and pushed it over the tipping point, due solely to an advertisement in someone's signature?

The signature links went through a click counting system, which logged a total of 1357 clicks. Can't say it's what tipped any one set, but I think it's large enough to be significant.

Related, there have already been a few posts along the lines of "Can't believe I missed this".

[BunnyLake]

i dont like to post actual opinions on here, because someone smarter than me is always around to chew me out, however someone said i should express some of my thoughts here

i dont know any of the mods reasoning etc for this, so im speaking only on my experience and what i think/assume

so im in a spot where this can really affect me, and i see it from both points of view so ill quite possibly contradict myself a lot

for full disclosure ill catch you up with my current position

so i / ctrlalt have run many gbs among other things, ctrlalt used to have a vendor forum (now we have an artisan sub) that we would use for products other than gbs as well as ctrlalt announcements etc, and then separately run gbs in the gb sub forum

when the artisan sub forum was created recently, it was proposed we move from a vendor to artisan sub, and separately after that a decision was made to move my gbs from the gb thread to my artisan sub and was then changed back again

i was upset with both of these changes initially, but i, like many others are still now, were only really looking at the short term impact

but speaking as someone who was super against any change, ill try and explain why i now think its the right move

so really, we are all here to consume data, thats all a forum really is, so when a forums user base is small, you dont need many sections, but as the community grows, you have to separate things further, what initially feels like an inconvenience because things you are used to looking for are no longer where you think, will later turn into a convenience where itll be easier to only consume the info you want

as a community we need to be forward thinking, as the community grows, not only do we need to make it easier to navigate to things people wanna see, but also protect ourselves, as the community gets bigger and bigger, we will experience more and more growing pains

things such as scams and failed gbs will become more prevalent, the bigger the community grows, and at that point, having dedicated areas for the work of trusted vendors or community members will be a great thing, you wont be marred by the potentially unsafe gb section, but can live on just your reputation, obviously moderation has to occur as to when and who justifies there own sections, either as vendors or artisans or something new

what may start as an initial hit to visibility, that will change as people learn to view the board differently

the trouble with subtle changes is, peoples viewing habits dont change, i think as time goes on, and the hobby or community grows, eventually the structure of the forum will change to find the best fit to accommodate things

i guess as an example, look at how the media thread works, what most likely started as post your keyboard, turned into post your poker, post your Korean keyboard, post your duckies etc, or even post your brobots or post your clacks, now instead of going through pages and pages of pics trying to see pics of things you want, you can narrow your search, if you just wanna see pics of unicorn vomit boards, there is a place for you

gbs should be no different, it just hurts a bit at first, particularly for people who make a profit, the hit in visibility can hurt there bottom line, but in time viewing habits will change, and as gbs and artisan services get more prevalent, having a place of your own will be a positive thing

and once you have people who run large or multiple gbs in there own sections, it frees up the gb section and helps with visibility for the people trying something new or smaller buys

all that being said, for my particular set of circumstances, i currently want to be in the gb section, as we grow, that may need to change in the future, but for the position we are in right now, i feel we have the right set up for us

for gb participants, in time, your viewing habits will change, and being able to quickly locate buys from people you enjoy dealing with will be a good thing

for gb runners

there are good and bad points for everyone as to whats going on, people who run smaller or first time buys, having people running large trusted buys draws traffic to the gb thread and can help you get noticed, however they can also overshadow you, for vendors who run gbs, the loss in viewership right now may suck, but when community members change there habits, i think there will be many positives to not be lumped in with everyone else

ive had no sleep

most likely best to ignore me

holla

[jdcarpe]

I think a good example of BunnyLake's point is my own thread in the Artisan Services subforum, where I am taking orders for my 40% keyboard builds. I had a thread in Classifieds (created before the new rules were implemented and Artisan Services didn't exist yet), and it got a few hits, and I sold a few keyboards. But now that I have a thread in Artisan Services where it belongs, I have much better visibility there. I have received more interest in the past few days than in the couple months that my Classifieds thread was active.

Now, I'm just one guy, and I have limited spare time to build these hobby projects. But if I were serious about selling something, and invested lots of time and money into the products I was offering, I could definitely see where having my own subforum under Artisan Services (or Vendor Forums) would be of great benefit. Your product or service listed in your own subforum isn't competing for visibility with many other threads in one general forum area.

[CPTBadAss]

what may start as an initial hit to visibility, that will change as people learn to view the board differently

Instead of browsing the forum in a rigid and focused manner, only clicking links to areas of ones own personal interest, one could always click the Unread or Spy links at the top, and view threads from various areas of the forum listed chronologically.

Just because you don't take in the information in the same way others do doesn't mean it doesn't happen. If I didn't know the Berlin Wall fell, does that mean it didn't happen? If you want to know about GBs, adapt your browsing habits or miss out. Would you only take in your news at *only* CNN or BBC or NPR? Why not spread out and look and other ways to take in that information?

I think this entire arguement boils down to "I don't want to click on something new 'cause its scary". Adapt or don't get what you want.

But like, that's my opinion man.

[Krogenar]

And why did you cross out where I wrote Artisan?

I crossed it out because I never mentioned the Artisan subforum in relation to my ghettoization comments.

There is at least one major Artisan group, CtrlAlt, that runs many group buys here, and their threads will be placed in their Artisan subforum. So why is it you think Vendors are being singled out?

Here's why I think the policy is designed to put down some groupbuys and uplift others:

it doesn't matter at all who does the design. in fact, in SP's situation, it seems to me that they are having the community design their products and then collecting all payment and margin on that product and giving the designer only a single set of keycaps. this seems eyebrow raising to me if i were either a designer or customer.

Vendor-sponsored groupbuys (of which SP is the only one so far, but Qwerkeys may soon enter the field) are somehow "eyebrow raising" because they turn a profit? Nevermind that they make a profit on every groupbuy anyway, this attitude that SP is 'using' the community is poisonous, unnecessary, and shouldn't be expressed via policy. At best, the policy is designed to protect friends and fellow forum members from competition -- and that's a good goal, but there are better ways to do it.

When the decision was first made to separate the Vendor GBs from community GBs, I was of the opinion that all GBs should be in the Group Buys forum. But after a while of seeing it in practice, I have found that it really makes no difference. At least not to me, in the way I use the forum.

I have to agree. The Macross GB (the first vendor-sponsored groupbuy) was a success, but Granite was much stronger. I believe SP's PMK system needs work, but there's a lot of potential there and the policies of an internet forum aren't going to keep people from finding what they want to purchase. But the act of trying to stop good things from happening (or at least giving them a steeper climb) makes the forum leadership look petty, even foolish. We shouldn't do that.

Let me put this here again, in case you missed it:

Instead of browsing the forum in a rigid and focused manner, only clicking links to areas of ones own personal interest, one could always click the Unread or Spy links at the top, and view threads from various areas of the forum listed chronologically.

  No, jd, I didn't "miss" your comment. Putting all these different groupbuys in different locations still doesn't make logical sense. It's like saying we put the 'artisan bread' in a completely different supermarket aisle from the other breads. The fact that you can still find the other non-artisan bread by other means doesn't explain the necessity for their segregation. The only hint at the reason so far has been the dark spectre of "eyebrow raising" profit.

as a community we need to be forward thinking, as the community grows, not only do we need to make it easier to navigate to things people wanna see, but also protect ourselves, as the community gets bigger and bigger, we will experience more and more growing pains

(emphasis added by Krog)

I agree that we need to make it easier for people to find what they want to see, that's why I think all groupbuys should be in a single subforum. What I wonder is, what do we need to protect ourselves from? I'm not even disagreeing with the need to protect ourselves -- I'd just like to hear what's threatening us.

things such as scams and failed gbs will become more prevalent, the bigger the community grows, and at that point, having dedicated areas for the work of trusted vendors or community members will be a great thing, you wont be marred by the potentially unsafe gb section, but can live on just your reputation, obviously moderation has to occur as to when and who justifies there own sections, either as vendors or artisans or something new

Is that why we're doing this? To keep untested groupbuy organizers segregated from the main GB subforum until they've proven themselves? Because that would be a sensible policy with a clear public good in mind. How many successful groupbuys would an organizer have to run before they can post in the main thread?

[BunnyLake]

And why did you cross out where I wrote Artisan?

I crossed it out because I never mentioned the Artisan subforum in relation to my ghettoization comments.

There is at least one major Artisan group, CtrlAlt, that runs many group buys here, and their threads will be placed in their Artisan subforum. So why is it you think Vendors are being singled out?

Here's why I think the policy is designed to put down some groupbuys and uplift others:

it doesn't matter at all who does the design. in fact, in SP's situation, it seems to me that they are having the community design their products and then collecting all payment and margin on that product and giving the designer only a single set of keycaps. this seems eyebrow raising to me if i were either a designer or customer.

Vendor-sponsored groupbuys (of which SP is the only one so far, but Qwerkeys may soon enter the field) are somehow "eyebrow raising" because they turn a profit? Nevermind that they make a profit on every groupbuy anyway, this attitude that SP is 'using' the community is poisonous, unnecessary, and shouldn't be expressed via policy. At best, the policy is designed to protect friends and fellow forum members from competition -- and that's a good goal, but there are better ways to do it.

When the decision was first made to separate the Vendor GBs from community GBs, I was of the opinion that all GBs should be in the Group Buys forum. But after a while of seeing it in practice, I have found that it really makes no difference. At least not to me, in the way I use the forum.

I have to agree. The Macross GB (the first vendor-sponsored groupbuy) was a success, but Granite was much stronger. I believe SP's PMK system needs work, but there's a lot of potential there and the policies of an internet forum aren't going to keep people from finding what they want to purchase. But the act of trying to stop good things from happening (or at least giving them a steeper climb) makes the forum leadership look petty, even foolish. We shouldn't do that.

Let me put this here again, in case you missed it:

Instead of browsing the forum in a rigid and focused manner, only clicking links to areas of ones own personal interest, one could always click the Unread or Spy links at the top, and view threads from various areas of the forum listed chronologically.

  No, jd, I didn't "miss" your comment. Putting all these different groupbuys in different locations still doesn't make logical sense. It's like saying we put the 'artisan bread' in a completely different supermarket aisle from the other breads. The fact that you can still find the other non-artisan bread by other means doesn't explain the necessity for their segregation. The only hint at the reason so far has been the dark spectre of "eyebrow raising" profit.

as a community we need to be forward thinking, as the community grows, not only do we need to make it easier to navigate to things people wanna see, but also protect ourselves, as the community gets bigger and bigger, we will experience more and more growing pains

(emphasis added by Krog)

I agree that we need to make it easier for people to find what they want to see, that's why I think all groupbuys should be in a single subforum. What I wonder is, what do we need to protect ourselves from? I'm not even disagreeing with the need to protect ourselves -- I'd just like to hear what's threatening us.

things such as scams and failed gbs will become more prevalent, the bigger the community grows, and at that point, having dedicated areas for the work of trusted vendors or community members will be a great thing, you wont be marred by the potentially unsafe gb section, but can live on just your reputation, obviously moderation has to occur as to when and who justifies there own sections, either as vendors or artisans or something new

Is that why we're doing this? To keep untested groupbuy organizers segregated from the main GB subforum until they've proven themselves? Because that would be a sensible policy with a clear public good in mind. How many successful groupbuys would an organizer have to run before they can post in the main thread?

you seem to be either completely missing my point, or just reading my words and then pretending they mean something totally different

what you are saying is the complete opposite to what i said

[Photoelectric]

The commercial nature of this site is far secondary to its information exchange nature.  That is how we would like to keep it, instead of turning GH into a supermarket.  Therefore, restrictions on commercial sales and compartmentalization are tougher than they would be in a place where the primary goal is sales.  Some people do only come here to buy, and they are still able to with the current scenario, but our primary goal is not to turn GH into a shopping site--it is to keep the commercial side of it in check so it does not overwhelm the unbiased information exchange side.

[Krogenar]

you seem to be either completely missing my point, or just reading my words and then pretending they mean something totally different
what you are saying is the complete opposite to what i said

I'm not willingfully trying to misrepresent your position, BL. I'm sorry if I upset you, that wasn't my intention.

The commercial nature of this site is far secondary to its information exchange nature.  That is how we would like to keep it, instead of turning GH into a supermarket.  Therefore, restrictions on commercial sales and compartmentalization are tougher than they would be in a place where the primary goal is sales.  Some people do only come here to buy, and they are still able to with the current scenario, but our primary goal is not to turn GH into a shopping site--it is to keep the commercial side of it in check so it does not overwhelm the unbiased information exchange side.

Ok. So let me try to rephrase that back to you, and see if my humble brain can wrap around it.

GH's leadership doesn't want the character of the site to change. We don't want to become purely commercial, or overwhelmingly so, because that would be detrimental to the 'unbiased information exchange' aspect of the forum. How does listing all groupbuys together in a single forum overwhelm any other aspect? If there are 15 different groupbuys actively listed on GH, how does dispersing some of those threads into subforums deflect this harm to GH's character? It only works if some of those groupbuys are more detrimental to GH's character than others, and that's where I take issue. Vendors in good standing are members of our community, and I don't think their efforts should be treated this way.

The distinction between a vendor-sponsored groupbuy and a 'traditional' groupbuy doesn't seem to warrant the segregation.

[Photoelectric]

It sets limits on commercial party involvement into the community.  That is done on purpose, as explained above.  Otherwise any random vendor can come in and begin posting in the classifieds and group buys in volume, just to sell and contribute nothing else.  If there are no guidelines set to compartmentalize and limit commercial activity, the end result will be turning this site into Amazon or Taobao of mechanical keyboards, which is not the intention.

[MsYutai]

Why not have a forum called like "Group Buys","Sales","Buy Stuff!" and then have subforums called "Community" and "Vendor"? Probably need some type of description under each, but that way you can still buy stuff from the same area of the forum.

Then the Vendor area of the site would be restricted to discussion of the sale process, complaints, questions, etc.

Another suggestion would be to separate the "Group Buy" section info active and ended GBs-- I know this may be hard but it would help people figure out what they can still actually buy while also keeping the Group Buys forum less cluttered.

EDIT: Sorry if someone else has already suggested this, didn't read the whole thread XD

[mkawa]

It sets limits on commercial party involvement into the community.  That is done on purpose, as explained above.  Otherwise any random vendor can come in and begin posting in the classifieds and group buys in volume, just to sell and contribute nothing else.  If there are no guidelines set to compartmentalize and limit commercial activity, the end result will be turning this site into Amazon or Taobao of mechanical keyboards, which is not the intention.

thanks for putting it so eloquently, photo. that said, i feel like this has been said in a hundred different (albeit less elegant) ways in this thread and am inclined to move further discussion into OT. philosophical discussions about the nature of the forum are welcome, but at some point we have to draw a line between operational discussion and rhetorical discussion. operationally, the current rules will not be changed, for the reasons above. philosophically, one can pontificate all one wants, but probably not here.

[Photoelectric]

Why not have a forum called like "Group Buys","Sales","Buy Stuff!" and then have subforums called "Community" and "Vendor"? Probably need some type of description under each, but that way you can still buy stuff from the same area of the forum.

Then the Vendor area of the site would be restricted to discussion of the sale process, complaints, questions, etc.

Another suggestion would be to separate the "Group Buy" section info active and ended GBs-- I know this may be hard but it would help people figure out what they can still actually buy while also keeping the Group Buys forum less cluttered.

There is already separation into sections:

geekhack marketplace

• vendors
• group buys
• artisans

What's the purpose of redoing it when it's precisely the division that's being argued against by certain people in this thread.

And the last thing you ask about--you can scan this thread for information about currently-running group buys:
http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=57761.0

[mkawa]

ok, sorry guys, this is getting hot enough that it belongs in OT.

[jdeblese]

It sets limits on commercial party involvement into the community.  That is done on purpose, as explained above.  Otherwise any random vendor can come in and begin posting in the classifieds and group buys in volume, just to sell and contribute nothing else.  If there are no guidelines set to compartmentalize and limit commercial activity, the end result will be turning this site into Amazon or Taobao of mechanical keyboards, which is not the intention.

Ok, now I understand what you're getting at. It's not about giving an advantage to the community organizers, nor about a dislike for profit-seeking, but about the fact that GeekHack is primarily not a marketplace, regardless of who the seller is. In that case, you indeed don't want to make it too easy to launch ventures here, even if they do come from within the community but especially if they're championed by vendors.

[taylordcraig]

Regardless of my personal feelings as to what is and isn't considered a group buy, it has been decided that all "products" brought forth by Vendors and Artisans on this forum should be posted in their respective subforums. I really don't see where the confusion and malcontentedness is coming from, regarding where on the forum a thread is posted.

And to classify the Vendor and Artisan subforums as "ghettos" is an outright insult to the many talented Vendors and Artisans who are a part of our community.

Instead of browsing the forum in a rigid and focused manner, only clicking links to areas of ones own personal interest, one could always click the Unread or Spy links at the top, and view threads from various areas of the forum listed chronologically.

But that's just like, my opinion, man.

I realize I'm late to the party;
I tried doing this when first joining geekhack.
Frankly, there are FAR too many threads to read.
I spend more time than I would like on GH as it is,

That said. Photo has provided me with a satisfying answer.