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geekhack Community => Ergonomics => Topic started by: noctua on Fri, 16 July 2010, 14:14:40

Title: Wanna Switch - Colemak?
Post by: noctua on Fri, 16 July 2010, 14:14:40
This is now my third day, since i have decided to give Colemak (http://colemak.com/) a try. After the first lessons
i can write this thread very slowly.. more burdensome. My first impression, apart from the
effort of time and concentration, is it feels more calmer..

Beginners or advancer here that can report their experience?
Title: Wanna Switch - Colemak?
Post by: Oqsy on Fri, 16 July 2010, 17:19:21
I've got a colemak cooler that I fill with beer from time to time.  It works pretty well, but sometimes it seems like the ice melts a little faster than it should.  I don't know if the insulation inside the plastic degrades with age or what...
Title: Wanna Switch - Colemak?
Post by: Computer-Lab in Basement on Fri, 16 July 2010, 17:42:21
My dad has a similar cooler, he likes to fill it with Yuengling and bring it camping in the rain once a year.
Title: Wanna Switch - Colemak?
Post by: EverythingIBM on Fri, 16 July 2010, 17:42:56
Quote from: Oqsy;203402
I've got a colemak cooler that I fill with beer from time to time.  It works pretty well, but sometimes it seems like the ice melts a little faster than it should.  I don't know if the insulation inside the plastic degrades with age or what...


Beer?? ewwwww. How about some cranberry juice. YUM! Cranberry juice w/ a 300PL w/ some DOS games w/ a LAN party. Just better hope the games use TCP/IP instead of IPX. I HATE IPX AAAAAAAH, nothing I tried would work. Then again, I tried using modems and that didn't work either. Luckily most of my games support TCP/IP.
Title: Wanna Switch - Colemak?
Post by: EverythingIBM on Fri, 16 July 2010, 17:45:11
Quote from: Computer-Lab in Basement;203408
My dad has a similar cooler, he likes to fill it with Yuengling and bring it camping in the rain once a year.


I wouldn't be surprised if your dad opened it one day and seen a bunch of 5" floppies spilling out. "ohhh, little CLIB is at it again!"
Title: Wanna Switch - Colemak?
Post by: Computer-Lab in Basement on Fri, 16 July 2010, 17:47:07
No he would open it up and find that I had stolen all his beer.
Title: Wanna Switch - Colemak?
Post by: EverythingIBM on Fri, 16 July 2010, 18:01:51
Quote from: Computer-Lab in Basement;203412
No he would open it up and find that I had stolen all his beer.


And then you'd trade the beer with MW for some vintage computers.
Title: Wanna Switch - Colemak?
Post by: sam113101 on Fri, 16 July 2010, 20:01:21
I'm using a french dvorak keyboard layout called bépo since 5 months I think, and I love it, better than qwerty

the first month was very hard, I was typing at the speed of 60 words a minute in qwerty and fell back to 6 words a minute, it got frustrating sometimes

now I might have reached my qwerty speed, I might even type faster now
I will take a typing test soon, I'm curious too

I wasn't a touch typist and it's the reason why I tried dvorak
Title: Wanna Switch - Colemak?
Post by: Oqsy on Fri, 16 July 2010, 20:12:32
Bepo (http://onepiece.wikia.com/wiki/Bepo)
Title: Wanna Switch - Colemak?
Post by: microsoft windows on Fri, 16 July 2010, 20:18:55
(http://shellgames.files.wordpress.com/2008/12/roadkill.jpg)
Title: Wanna Switch - Colemak?
Post by: Viett on Fri, 16 July 2010, 20:19:53
Love Colemak. I wrote a review (http://geekhack.org/showwiki.php?title=Island:10018) about QWERTY, Dvorak, and Colemak a while ago. Stick with it. It'll pay off.
Title: Wanna Switch - Colemak?
Post by: EverythingIBM on Fri, 16 July 2010, 20:44:12
Quote from: Oqsy;203474
Bepo (http://onepiece.wikia.com/wiki/Bepo)

(http://images3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20090909132152/onepiece/images/2/27/Bepo_attacks.jpg)
EDIT: it took me awhile to get the URL for that... they masked it with a one-pixel invisible GIF file lol. I started seeing people do that. But luckily there's "source code" (and messy code at that, lots of generators).

Bepo? What is that, really. Some four-legged bear thing.

Quote from: microsoft windows;203477
Show Image
(http://shellgames.files.wordpress.com/2008/12/roadkill.jpg)

Possum! Squirrel!

(http://www.treehugger.com/Roadkill-Litter.jpg)
Title: Wanna Switch - Colemak?
Post by: aegrotatio on Sat, 17 July 2010, 02:04:50
Colemak is nobile but too different from the day-to-day, get-work-done keyboard layouts that I need to survive.  Even after the several weeks of learning the format I'm not sure the 10% of typing efficiency I might gain would matter to anyone more than people who transcribe thousands of words per day, but then, doesn't OCR handle that, too?  But I digress.  Sigh.
Title: Wanna Switch - Colemak?
Post by: noctua on Sat, 17 July 2010, 02:46:01
I can switch between qwertz and colemak on my protoype quickly, both layouts was programmed
into the controller and are selectable via key combination, no software is required. Today on the
fourth, my speed is ~20 wpm..

Colemak does a good job at loading the stronger fingers (index and middle)
and uses them most of the time.
Title: Wanna Switch - Colemak?
Post by: noctua on Sat, 17 July 2010, 03:45:20
Quote from: Viett;203478
Love Colemak. I wrote a review (http://geekhack.org/showwiki.php?title=Island:10018) about QWERTY, Dvorak, and Colemak a while ago. Stick with it. It'll pay off.


How long you type already with Colemak, and you never repented this decision?
Title: Wanna Switch - Colemak?
Post by: effnish on Sat, 17 July 2010, 09:54:12
I thought I'd chime in here with my Colemak experiences.  About 6 months ago I made the switch.  I'm a software developer by day, so I thought it was worth my time if it was more comfortable to type on.

Prior to the switch I typed QWERTY at 80-90 WPM.  It took about an hour or two to memorize the Colemak layout.  The first couple of days were brutal.  I was typing a dismal 13 WPM and abandoned using it at work until I could type at a more respectable rate.  By the end of the week I was closer to 25 WPM.  Another 2-3 weeks later I was up to 40ish WPM.  

For me 40 WPM is the real sweet spot for using the layout comfortably.  I don't think much faster than 40 WPM so I don't notice the speed difference that much unless I'm transcribing text.  I currently type about 65-70 WPM on Colemak and my QWERTY speed has stayed about the same (more on this later).

Colemak is definitely a "calmer" layout.  Your fingers aren't dancing across the keyboard nearly as much.  I find that it's also much more comfortable to type on for long periods of time.  I did have more hand discomfort when I first started because I was typing a lot more and I was much more tense when I typed.

Here are some of my suggestions for making the switch.

Plan to practice for about an hour a day for the first couple of weeks.  When you get frustrated take a break for a while.

Don't try and use it for anything that's time critical until your comfortable with your typing speed.  It just caused me frustration and increases typing discomfort since I was stressed and tense while I typed.

If you have more than one computer set one up as Colemak and leave a QWERTY computer.  Your brain does an amazing job of associating keyboard layouts by physical environment.  This helped me learn Colemak without losing QWERTY.  I stopped using QWERTY for a month and found it really difficult to type it when I needed to.  Maintain QWERTY because you'll need it if you ever have to help a coworker with a problem or borrow someone else's computer.  At this point all of my computers but one are set to use Colemak.  The one I use the least is set to QWERTY which forces me to use it regularly.
Title: Wanna Switch - Colemak?
Post by: Viett on Sat, 17 July 2010, 10:47:37
Quote from: noctua;203546
How long you type already with Colemak, and you never repented this decision?


I learned the layout a year ago, but I only started actually using Colemak in February. I feel more comfortable with it now than I ever did with Dvorak, which I typed for almost two years.
Title: Wanna Switch - Colemak?
Post by: HaaTa on Sat, 17 July 2010, 11:02:11
I started to learn Colemak in November last year. Only kept up to it because it didn't annoy me like Dvorak did trying to learn it a year earlier (mostly symbols for programming).

As for speed, I'm probably a little bit faster on QWERTY still. However the comfort and convenience (I don't touch type with QWERTY) keep me with Colemak.
Title: Wanna Switch - Colemak?
Post by: noctua on Sun, 18 July 2010, 03:26:39
Thanks for sharing your experiences, today on the fifth my fingers feels good with "calmer" Colemak.
But i have to be very concentrated to reach the required accuracy, memorizing the layout is one
thing, the other to hit the right key each time..

My qwertz-status-quo smiles only about the slow typing maneuver...
Title: Wanna Switch - Colemak?
Post by: mcbrite on Sun, 18 July 2010, 12:40:24
I started only yesterday evening. This msg is typed in Colemak. It's veeeeery slow still, but surprisingly I don't have to look at the layout at all anymore.

Memorizing it was FAR easier than I imagined!

Nocuta:
May I ask where you put the german Umlaute?

Pro Tipp for peeps learning to touchtype:
Whatever your training schedule, make sure you have at least a small training unit at the end of the evening, just before going to bed.
Title: Wanna Switch - Colemak?
Post by: noctua on Sun, 18 July 2010, 13:47:37
Indeed, the keys aou are occupied by the french accents áóú. The german umlauts
have unfavourable positions.. ä -> q, ü -> y and ö is on ;!

This guy (http://www.colemak.de/Colemak_Deutschland.html) has moved the umlauts to their "original" positions (ÄÖÜ -> AltGr AOU),
much more better.

Personally i have built my own keyboard prototype from scratch, both layouts
(QWERTZ/COLEMAK) are stored into Teensy++ controller, i press Fn+aou and
get äöü.

What was your reason for trying resp. switch to Colemak?
Title: Wanna Switch - Colemak?
Post by: krstf on Sun, 18 July 2010, 16:44:32
I switched about 6 weeks ago. In the beginning I trained about 1-2 hours a day, before going on holiday a for 2 weeks about 2 weeks after I switched. After returning I trained much less and now my speed is about 20-30 wpm (which is about half my qwerty speed), progressing slowly but steadily.
I really like the feel of the layout - much more relaxing to type. There's only one thing which can be a bit annoying: as soon as I reach a certain speed my QWERTY muscle memory seems to kick in from time to time - most prominent example is hitting r when I intend to hit s - but I guess that will go away with time.

Anyone else experience this?

Cheers
Title: Wanna Switch - Colemak?
Post by: Viett on Sun, 18 July 2010, 17:42:46
Quote from: krstf;203946


Anyone else experience this?



Maybe the opposite. Before I forgot how to type Dvorak completely, when I decided to switch to Colemak, the only way I could type Dvorak was if I told myself to type as fast as possible. If I typed too slowly, I'd start to type Colemak again.

For a while I wanted to retain all three layouts. But I gave up-- it was way too much to bother remembering Dvorak when there was no real reason to ever use it.
Title: Wanna Switch - Colemak?
Post by: n3rrd on Sun, 18 July 2010, 22:18:55
I have no real qualms with QWERTY myself, but I've always been interested in learning an alternative.  It sounds as though one should learn Colemak over Dvorak?  I appreciate that Colemak leaves cut, copy, and paste shortcuts in the same place.  I'm not sure how I feel about having to remap keys for VIM, though.
Title: Wanna Switch - Colemak?
Post by: noctua on Mon, 19 July 2010, 04:43:48
I type since 10 years on the QWERTZ layout, this was/is ok for me too.
But this layout isn't "really" ideal for everybody whose native language
is not english.. you know, but this is also true for the Colemak layout.

Specially for germans the NordTast (http://wiki.nordtast.org/w/Hauptseite) layout may be an alternative.

Why Colemak, hmm we all creature of habit. The fact that the letters
"qwahzxycvbm,." are unchanged on the Colemak layout is personally
an advantage for me.. still i will feel how it is in another Church ;-)
Title: Wanna Switch - Colemak?
Post by: noctua on Tue, 20 July 2010, 06:50:40
Today on sixt day, i have replaced the green mx switch (under the spacebar)
with an lighter blue one, this feels better. For my practice training, i "perform"
now an slower steady rhythm/beat. It will take some time..

Does anybody use the left thumb for the spacebar?
Title: Wanna Switch - Colemak?
Post by: muchadoaboutnothing on Tue, 20 July 2010, 07:14:25
Quote from: noctua;204467
Does anybody use the left thumb for the spacebar?


I mostly use my right, but if my right thumb isn't on the space bar I will use my left.
Title: Wanna Switch - Colemak?
Post by: noctua on Tue, 20 July 2010, 10:28:39
Huh, I'm stuck resp. i am confused. I have so much practiced Colemak that i can't type some lines with Qwerty at the moment, no chance..
Title: Wanna Switch - Colemak?
Post by: JBert on Tue, 20 July 2010, 16:34:53
I tried to go cold turkey and mostly kept it up. I had to cheat those few first days though as I couldn't type fast enough to get mails or chat out of the door soon enough.

As for WPM, I can't really say how fast I typed before on QWERTY. I used some hunt-and-swarm technique where I knew some rolls and letters but still continuously had to look to reposition my hand to the right letter. That's what you get from chatting without formal touch-typing training.

To put a number on it, I think I did somewhere between 20-40 WPM before, depending on the type of text to be typed. Right now I can get 50-60 WPM although my accuracy is still off. It seems this remains the same, even when typing at 40 WPM, I just seem to start missing characters when I lose focus.
Title: Wanna Switch - Colemak?
Post by: effnish on Tue, 20 July 2010, 19:39:48
Quote from: noctua;204519
Huh, I'm stuck resp. i am confused. I have so much practiced Colemak that i can't type some lines with Qwerty at the moment, no chance..


If you dedicate some time to qwerty (1-2 hrs), it'll come back.  Early on it's really tough to switch back and forth, especially if it's the same computer/keyboard.  With enough practice you'll be able to switch pretty seamlessly.  I had a period where I couldn't use qwerty.  All it took was moving back to it as my primary layout for a few days.  This was at a time when I was at 50-60 WPM on Colemak.  Since then it's been much easier to switch.

On a somewhat related note, I took my cherry blue keyboard to work today to annoy my officemate and I made a small discovery.  My office computer is qwerty and has been for some time.  As soon as I start typing on the blues, I suddenly wanted to type in Colemak.  Apparently my brain has associated the blue-click with Colemak.
Title: Wanna Switch - Colemak?
Post by: noctua on Wed, 21 July 2010, 11:23:25
It is curious, when i type english on Colemak layout it feels at the moment more conclusively
resp. logical, contrary to Qwertz that feels now so uncoordinated and scattered..

effnish: Do you type during the first 5-10 minutes of every day in QWERTY? (to maintain your QWERTY skills)
Title: Wanna Switch - Colemak?
Post by: noctua on Thu, 22 July 2010, 13:09:22
The German keyboad layout is an catastrophe specially for proramming ([]{}..),
therefore i have changed once again the controller "USB usage codes", the
prototype represents now an US Colemak layout. For more consistence, i
have used the Microsoft Keyboard Layout Creator V1.4 to handle with
the german umlauts (äöü) and the ß.
Title: Wanna Switch - Colemak?
Post by: noctua on Thu, 22 July 2010, 13:30:22
The German keyboad layout is an catastrophe specially for proramming ([]{}..),
therefore i have once again changed the controller "USB usage codes", the
prototype represents now an "hardcoded" US Colemak layout. For handling
with the umlauts i have used MS Keyboars Layout Creator 1.4 (http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/goglobal/bb964665.aspx).

Combination AltGr+a = ä, AltGr+s = ß etc.
Title: Wanna Switch - Colemak?
Post by: effnish on Thu, 22 July 2010, 14:26:32
Quote from: noctua;204821
It is curious, when i type english on Colemak layout it feels at the moment more conclusively
resp. logical, contrary to Qwertz that feels now so uncoordinated and scattered..

effnish: Do you type during the first 5-10 minutes of every day in QWERTY? (to maintain your QWERTY skills)


I just leave one computer that I use daily, set to QWERTY.  So for example I may set my office computer and laptop to Colemak, but leave my desktop on QWERTY.  The little bit I use my desktop after work is sufficient to keep my QWERTY skills honed.  Lately I've been working on a lot of lab computers that are all set to QWERTY since my coworkers don't share my enthusiasm for Colemak.

I noticed, especially early on that it was very difficult to switch the keyboard layout on the same computer.  I found it was much easier to switch if the environment was different such as: keyboard, physical computer, OS, etc.  At this point I can pretty much switch at will on the same computer.  There are a few keys (T, G, K) that give me grief depending on the layout.
Title: Wanna Switch - Colemak?
Post by: noctua on Fri, 23 July 2010, 04:02:15
Today i know Qwerty wasn't the "best" idea, but this layout exist now since > 134 years,
..the strange face of an status quo.. , that i have self learned - like anybody candidate too
in the manner of conformance..

(http://geekhack.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=11836&stc=1&d=1279875600)

This is the Colemak layout that i use on my prototype, any suggestions regarding to the modifications?
Title: Wanna Switch - Colemak?
Post by: dissident on Fri, 23 July 2010, 06:50:45
I'd like to learn it, I really would, but so many keyboards out there are qwerty that it seems like too much of a  hassle to be worth it, especially since I type 60 plus words a minute now, and that won't really improve much with a new layout, the only way to improve that speed is to deliberately try to with exercises to improve muscle memory. As I sit here typing this message though I realize just how stupid qwerty really is... my fingers are going all over the place!
Title: Wanna Switch - Colemak?
Post by: dissident on Fri, 23 July 2010, 09:27:58
What's the best way to learn colemak? I printed out a mapping of the keys... since I can type the other format just fine I figured it would be less painful then trying to do it blind... force myself to use it full time on this computer...
Title: Wanna Switch - Colemak?
Post by: Viett on Fri, 23 July 2010, 09:52:02
I wouldn't try anything like going cold turkey immediately. In one memorization session, memorize the entire layout from your printout using touch typing (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Touch_typing) (using the correct finger to a corresponding key). Use something like TypeFaster to help you learn a few keys at a time, if necessary. This will take only 1-2 hours, and you'll only ever need to do this once.

Once you have the key positions memorized, you can ditch your reference and cease looking at your keyboard altogether. From there, expect to be typing far below 5 WPM. Practice 1-2 hours a day until your speed improves. Once you feel decently comfortable with the new layout, you can switch to Colemak exclusively. The key is to not use Colemak outside of a practice environment until you are comfortable, or you may get stressed out, leading to poor typing form and the temptation to switch back to QWERTY.

This is what I would recommend, but do what works for you.
Title: Wanna Switch - Colemak?
Post by: noctua on Fri, 23 July 2010, 11:18:29
For some practice lessons i used my left thumb to press the spacebar,
one might think that "we" should do so with Colemak ;-)
Title: Wanna Switch - Colemak?
Post by: HaaTa on Fri, 23 July 2010, 12:54:56
lol, due to my copious amounts of FPS playing before learning to touch type, I only use the my left thumb for the space bar.

Noctua, where's the tab key?
Title: Wanna Switch - Colemak?
Post by: noctua on Fri, 23 July 2010, 13:45:04
The location of the tab key and all other keys (enter, backspace..) is an
surprise and will not yet be revealed. :smile: But i give you an hint, i was
inspired by the PLUM (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PLUM_keyboard) keyboard.

Normally i use my right thumb to press the spacebar, but i found it very
comfortable to use the alternative left thumb, unfortunately my brain
becomes more stressed (focus on the left thumb) and my accuraccy
has suffered..

I think, it's just a matter of practice and habits. Anyway today i have
reached sometimes the 40 wpm, Qwerty your days are numbered.. :tape:
Title: Wanna Switch - Colemak?
Post by: HaaTa on Fri, 23 July 2010, 13:47:07
Closer to this one (http://geekhack.org/showthread.php?t=10710) then?
Title: Wanna Switch - Colemak?
Post by: noctua on Fri, 23 July 2010, 14:19:03
Yes - because of the splitted layout and No - because of the staggered layout.
But the index finger dosn't use tab or the enter key on my prototype.. hmm
Anyhow, congratulation to your fine µTRON keyboard with Topre switches!
Title: Wanna Switch - Colemak?
Post by: Viett on Fri, 23 July 2010, 15:41:55
Quote from: HaaTa;205620
lol, due to my copious amounts of FPS playing before learning to touch type, I only use the my left thumb for the space bar.


After learning to touch type, I switched to ESDF instead of WASD. This is especially nice with NKRO, because a lot of combos on the ESDF row are blocked on normal keyboards.
Title: Wanna Switch - Colemak?
Post by: noctua on Tue, 27 July 2010, 11:03:53
The power of habit, i have changed the positions of symbols once more. The
brackets are now accessible via Shift key and need no longer the awkward
AltGr key. The key #' is double occupied, on the second layer here is the ´`
key located. I have ordered some keyboard sticker's (http://www.4keyboard.com/languagestickersenglishus-c-82_39.html) to update the
keycaps to the Colemak layout..

(http://geekhack.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=11880&stc=1&d=1280246494)

My practice speed: ~35 wpm with an higher focus on accuracy..
Title: Wanna Switch - Colemak?
Post by: noctua on Thu, 29 July 2010, 04:32:56
Today after two weeks, my current speed on Typeracer (http://play.typeracer.com/) ~40 wpm, of course i have to concentrate
on my typing but with each day it becomes more "easier" and Colemak is it worth.

For learning and practicing the whole layout i use the "free" sense-lang.org (http://www.sense-lang.org/typing/tutor/index.php?lang=EN_colemak) website, also i have
placed an layout image on my monitor, and i use different keyboard's: the "clicky" for Colemak
and my "old" MS Natural Keyboard for Qwerty.
Title: Wanna Switch - Colemak?
Post by: gr1m on Thu, 29 July 2010, 04:45:10
I gave up learning how to touch type in about 3 days, but I see many posts about learning new layouts (like yours above) and they all involve long periods of time, as well as being slow to start with to learn how to be precise. I ignored all of that. I pushed myself to reach the same 90 wpm in about 3 days and got too annoyed with the mistakes I was making to keep trying.

It's kind of like learning how to play guitar, except I don't put the effort in for learning how to touch type because I don't find that it is as important as guitar (I think I'm wrong, touch typing should be great ergonomically and otherwise).
Title: Wanna Switch - Colemak?
Post by: noctua on Wed, 04 August 2010, 10:06:40
Today, after almost three weeks i'am at the 50 wpm "barrier". With each day of practicing,
my muscle becomes more and more adapted to the Colemak layout. I have realised that
my mistakes comes from "hasty" reading from screen, also i must give my hands a little
bit more time when i roll some combinations "to fast". In this case my synchronization between the left ant right hand becomes confused..
Title: Wanna Switch - Colemak?
Post by: noctua on Wed, 04 August 2010, 10:40:51
Today, after almost three weeks i'am at the 50 wpm "barrier". With each day of practicing Colemak,
my muscle memory becomes more and more adapted to that. I have realised that my mistakes
comes from "hasty" reading from screen, also from hasty rolling of some combinations..  In this
case my synchronization between the left ant right hand becomes quickly confused..

On Colemak layout i feel my right hand sometimes, after long typing sessions,
in contrast to Qwerty where i feel my left hand more..

I have seen here (http://geekhack.org/group.php?groupid=11) a small minority of "typists" that use a non-standard layout,
i'm sure we have also Dvorak "typists" here..
Title: Wanna Switch - Colemak?
Post by: noctua on Thu, 12 August 2010, 06:32:58
So after four weeks, the 50 wpm barrier is broken, up to the next "60" wpm ;-)
Apropos non-staggered layout, personally for me an clear improvement, and
the blue clicky's are much lighter to press than the rubber-domes on my
Natual Keyboard, for the moment i like the click and Colemak!
Title: Wanna Switch - Colemak?
Post by: noctua on Wed, 18 August 2010, 14:01:46
I have changed the number's layout back again to the orginal US style, it is more pleasant.
The symbols " and ? have unfavorable positions on the German variant and {[]} are
plain and emotional an disaster.. ;-)

As you can see on the chart, my previous QWERTY speed was ~70 wpm, and today with
Colemak i'm on the way. I am most eager..

(http://geekhack.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=12200&stc=1&d=1282157211)
Title: Wanna Switch - Colemak?
Post by: lethjakman on Thu, 19 August 2010, 00:22:08
I use colemak! It's great, I've noticed the greatest benefit comes from not speed, but ease of typing. Especially on uncomfortable keyboards like my netbook, it's still much easier to type. If you keep using qwerty every once in a while, you will be able to switch back on the fly as well.
Title: Wanna Switch - Colemak?
Post by: noctua on Mon, 23 August 2010, 03:20:43
You are right, no dancing on the board instead doing it more "calmer" or even in an comfortable way.
It's only an personal thing, to see if the "travel-reduced" Colemak layout comparable to the old
Qwerty in terms of ego-speed-tests.. ;-)

I have Qwerty total neglected in all the Colemak practice time..
Title: Wanna Switch - Colemak?
Post by: noctua on Thu, 26 August 2010, 10:01:02
I have these days expiremented with various angels with my adjustable prototype.
Position (a) is the standard and was ok, personally position (b) was the most
comfortable for me. Surprisingly positions (c, d) was very strange to type
on (then the keyboard is near to you, it becomes uncomfortable..).

(http://geekhack.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=12263&d=1282831716)

Today after six weeks of Colemak practicing, up to <60 WPM are comfortable possible, but it
will take some time before the "old" flow comes back, without the permanent "intern focus"..
Yesterday i had an dayfly lucky home run with 77 WPM -- but surprisingly with
position (a).. hhhmmm should i convert back?
Title: Wanna Switch - Colemak?
Post by: HaaTa on Thu, 26 August 2010, 11:43:19
B seems to be the optimal position for me as well. Otherwise some of the keys tend to be more difficult to use.
Title: Wanna Switch - Colemak?
Post by: noctua on Thu, 02 September 2010, 15:00:31
After some days of experiencing with position B, i have the subjective impression
that i reach more accuracy (WPM is better), then i use an 0° degree angle instead
 of the most used ~22° degree. I use now an distance d = ~9 cm. Also i found
it comfortable then the keyboard half has an slant position like the
µTron keyboart..

(http://www.luxurylaunches.com/entry_images/1208/02/μTRON_Keyboard_1-thumb-450x378.jpg)
Title: Wanna Switch - Colemak?
Post by: Kira on Thu, 02 September 2010, 19:05:18
I just started using COLEMAK today. Last week I tried using DVORAK but giving up those shortcuts was too much for me. Anyways, I've been practicing for an hour now and am averaging somewhere around 15-24WPM. Sometimes I might go as low as 9 if I "forgot" where a key is. So far so good.

I hear that when people switch to mechanical keyboards they begin to type much slower because they aren't used to the keyboard so I'm thinking why not learn a new keyboard layout with a new keyboard! Also I hear learning how to NOT bottom out your keys also slows you down so if I type in COLEMAK, I'll learn to type in a more comfortable way and ALSO learn NOT to bottom out my keys.
Title: Wanna Switch - Colemak?
Post by: noctua on Fri, 03 September 2010, 02:59:54
I was satisfied with my Qwerty skills an my rubber dome keyboard, until the day if found
this forum here. Since i have build my own clicky keyboard from scratch, programming
controllers, have learned the Colemak layout and experiencing currently with keyboards
located in various positions..

So yeah this forum let you make things you never have heard before.. ;-)

As you can see, with each week of particing Colemak i comes closer to
my old Qwerty speed.. -- but in an comfortable "calmer" manner!

(http://geekhack.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=12348&stc=1&d=1283500267)

Hint: if you become frustrated or you hand stressed, during all the Colemak
practicing, make an break!
Title: Wanna Switch - Colemak?
Post by: MahBoi on Fri, 03 September 2010, 05:31:57
Quote from: noctua;209059
I have seen here (http://geekhack.org/group.php?groupid=11) a small minority of "typists" that use a non-standard layout,
i'm sure we have also Dvorak "typists" here..


Guilty as charged :smile:

Actually, I switched over to Dvorak only a couple of weeks ago. Of course, it was pretty frustrating initially having to type at 15 wpm at first, but some constant practice has made the switch fairly painless.

After the first week, I could type 40 wpm fairly accurately.

Today marks the end of my second week with Dvorak, and I'm getting 60 wpm comfortably.

My normal speed with QWERTY was about 80 wpm, so if I can get up there within a couple of months, I'll be satisfied.

The keyboard shortcuts didn't take long to get used to. If anything, it's a minor inconvenience to move my hand over for ctrl-x, ctrl-v, etc.

The main thing that I've been doing is just trying to keep a steady pace/rhythm while typing. I still have the occasional brain fart, but overall I've grown accustomed to this layout pretty quickly, and I'm liking it a lot. It feels very natural.

Colemak seems like another good alternative for QWERTY, but right now I'm dead set on getting back to my normal speed with Dvorak.
Title: Wanna Switch - Colemak?
Post by: noctua on Thu, 09 September 2010, 15:16:40
Nice to see and hear from other "typists" here in the forum, which use or learn
different layouts, regardless of their age! Other may think why we do so, hmm
i will give you an short answer: (n) years have past, (n) years with Qwerty..  ;-)


Today after 8 weeks of colemak practicing..

(http://geekhack.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=12428&stc=1&d=1284063107)
Title: Wanna Switch - Colemak?
Post by: noctua on Thu, 30 September 2010, 05:56:58
Today after 10 weeks, i'm knocking on the 80 WPM door. With a little bit more
practicing (time) i believe that i outbid my "old" Qwerty niveau in an "calmer"
way.. ;-)

(http://geekhack.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=12699&stc=1&d=1285843778)
Title: Wanna Switch - Colemak?
Post by: noctua on Sun, 31 October 2010, 11:28:39
So after 14 weeks, i have opened the 80 WPM door.. it has taken a little bit more time.
I have long thought about, how can i improve my typing skills, unfortunately i haven't long
fingers that can help me in this case.. ;-) Basically i practice each morning (except the
weekend) the typically colemak lesson plus the top most english word lesson, this is the
one half. The other half that has helped me was to type in an steady rhythm, the most
important thing thereby is: do it  r e l a x e d. I was surprised about this minor but
enormous fact..

Meanwhile i type faster english than german.. ;-)
Title: Wanna Switch - Colemak?
Post by: Keymonger on Mon, 01 November 2010, 10:01:59
I've used computers since I was a little kid, but didn't learn touch-typing until a few months ago. Starting in July, I went for Dvorak and haven't regretted it. Previously I could type as fast as 100 wpm with Qwerty. I'm at around 50-70 wpm now with Dvorak, but speed is not my concern at all. It's a little disappointing to see touch-typing be encouraged as something you can type faster with... it's not about speed, it's about comfort. Using a keyboard without hardly ever looking at it is an absolute joy! The most fun I'm having is using numbers... this always slowed me down because I had to look at the numbers, the topmost row. But even this can be done without looking, I never even knew that!

Actually, when I was 14 I recall touch-type lessons at school. But it was kind of hard to get used to so I went back to my old ways of typing, which entailed looking at the keys every once in a while and using 6 fingers or so... I think it's good they tried teaching this at high school, but for me it was too late. At home I spent way more time on a computer than school, so those lessons weren't helpful.

I have more thoughts about touch-typing, keyboards, Qwerty, key layout configuration, and alternative keyboard layouts, but I'm still in the process of thinking about all these things. It feels too premature to expound my thoughts at the moment. I will say this: learn to touch-type, focus on accuracy plus comfort, and enjoy typing more than ever before. There Is No Keyboard.
Title: Wanna Switch - Colemak?
Post by: rickysio on Tue, 02 November 2010, 03:40:09
I started learning Colemak exactly two weeks ago, cold turkey-ing after the first 3 days, abandoned the lessons after 2 days of trying them. I used to type in QWERTY in about 80+WPM (peak was 89 IIRC) but now with Colemak I'm languishing about 37WPM.
Title: Wanna Switch - Colemak?
Post by: Azuremen on Tue, 02 November 2010, 03:50:41
This reminds me a bit of when I switched to Dvorak a few years ago when I was doing some programming. The short cuts killed it for most of the time, though I was at 40WPM when I was relaxed, and could switch to QWERTY on the fly.

I see Colemak has the C and V keys in the same place though... Might have a new way to kill some time it seems.
Title: Wanna Switch - Colemak?
Post by: alec on Tue, 02 November 2010, 08:12:19
Let me insert my two cents into this rollercoaster ride.

While not Colemak, I, too, know several keyboard layouts. QWERTY English, Estonian (almost same but most symbols shuffled to other keys) and ЙЦУКЕН Russian (which has no legend of being designed for slowing down typists).
Experience was as mentioned here. Learning is slow. Mantaining speed requires daily practice. But if these layots are necessary in daily life its no problem.

Learning Dvorak or Colemak is interesting as personal achievement. But in hundreds of stories how someone learned new layout, only one or two actually stuck with it later on. It can't really be used everywhere all the time.

You become incompatible. Incompatible with software, hardware, other people.

For people unsure about whether to switch for ergonomic purposes, I suggest the alternative h omerow position. Instead of ASDF JKL; use SDFV NJKL
(http://typingsoft.com/img/sdfv.gif)
This achieves instant ergo-keyboard feel on any regular keyboard. My hands are relaxed and typing is very pleasant.

And lastly for those that know qwerty at 80 wpm level and want to switch to achieve better average speed - forget it. You get much better results putting those practice hours into qwerty. Instead you'll be making more errors and less speed in both layouts.
Title: Wanna Switch - Colemak?
Post by: rickysio on Tue, 02 November 2010, 08:31:00
Well I don't know about other layouts but with Colemak all you need is a thumbdrive and the pkl program.
Title: Wanna Switch - Colemak?
Post by: Keymonger on Tue, 02 November 2010, 09:41:50
Quote from: alec;241520

You become incompatible. Incompatible with software, hardware, other people.

That's only a concern if you're working on other people's keyboards all the time. If most time is spent on your own computer and keyboard, it's no issue at all. I switched to Dvorak, but I've used Qwerty from time to time without even noticing. At the library, with my electronic dictionary, and more. I'm not fast when using other people's computers, but I never was. And I don't exactly intend to do a lot of typing at the library.

Quote from: alec;241520

For people unsure about whether to switch for ergonomic purposes, I suggest the alternative h omerow position. Instead of ASDF JKL; use SDFV NJKL
Show Image
(http://typingsoft.com/img/sdfv.gif)

This achieves instant ergo-keyboard feel on any regular keyboard. My hands are relaxed and typing is very pleasant.

That looks interesting, but it looks like the topmost row becomes difficult to reach if you do it like that.

Quote from: alec;241520

And lastly for those that know qwerty at 80 wpm level and want to switch to achieve better average speed - forget it. You get much better results putting those practice hours into qwerty. Instead you'll be making more errors and less speed in both layouts.

I disagree. I used to be lightning fast at times, but now I'm slower with Dvorak, and more content. Why? Because it's far more comfortable. Big deal if I was fast... my hands were all over the place with Qwerty. It's even worse when you try to touch-type Qwerty. The lazy method of not using a home row is better for Qwerty, in my experience. It's a pretty much worthless layout.
Title: Wanna Switch - Colemak?
Post by: HaaTa on Tue, 02 November 2010, 09:48:03
Quote from: alec;241520

Show Image
(http://typingsoft.com/img/sdfv.gif)



Very interesting scheme. It also solves the difficulty of getting to the center keys.
Unfortunately it fails on the Tab and \ | key, also a bit difficult for 1 and Backspace.
Interesting, nonetheless, though.
Title: Wanna Switch - Colemak?
Post by: Azuremen on Tue, 02 November 2010, 15:14:36
Quote from: rickysio;241531
Well I don't know about other layouts but with Colemak all you need is a thumbdrive and the pkl program.


With Dvorak, I used a small program called DVassist that I could just run from a flash drive, hit a key combo, and instantly toggle between QWERTY and Dvorak in Windows. Was nice, because I could easily and quickly switch between them, so using Photoshop wasn't a nightmare of learning hotkeys again.
Title: Wanna Switch - Colemak?
Post by: Daniel Beaver on Tue, 02 November 2010, 17:17:20
I finally gave up on Colemak, but in the process I found a very neat autohotkey script that allows you to set a colemak layout for typing, but use the normal shortcut keys. Whenever a modifier key is pressed, it reverts the rest of the keyboard back to Qwerty so that normal hotkeys are used. I find this rather essential, since hotkeys become very awkward with alternate layouts.

Code: [Select]
Menu, Tray, Icon, main.cpl, 8

; Use Scroll Lock to control keyboard (&quot;on&quot; is Colemak)
; and do not let Control, Alt, or Win modifiers act on Colemak
Loop {
   If GetKeyState(&quot;ScrollLock&quot;, &quot;T&quot;)
   and !GetKeyState(&quot;Control&quot;)
   and !GetKeyState(&quot;Alt&quot;)
   and !GetKeyState(&quot;LWin&quot;)
   and !GetKeyState(&quot;RWin&quot;) {
      Suspend, Off
   } else {
      Suspend, On
   }
   Sleep, 50
}

; QWERTY to Colemak mapping

;q::q
;w::w
e::f
r::p
t::g
y::j
u::l
i::u
o::y
p::;
;[::[
;]::]

;a::a
s::r
d::s
f::t
g::d
;h::h
j::n
k::e
l::i
`;::o
;'::'

;z::z
;x::x
;c::c
;v::v
;b::b
n::k
;m::m
;,::,
;.::.
;/::/

;Backspace and Caps lock swap
;backspace::Capslock
;Capslock::backspace


Works for Dvorak too:

Code: [Select]
Menu, Tray, Icon, main.cpl, 8

; Use Scroll Lock to control keyboard ("on" is Dvorak)
; and do not let Control, Alt, or Win modifiers act on Dvorak
Loop {
   If GetKeyState("ScrollLock", "T")
   and !GetKeyState("Control")
   and !GetKeyState("Alt")
   and !GetKeyState("LWin")
   and !GetKeyState("RWin") {
      Suspend, Off
   } else {
      Suspend, On
   }
   Sleep, 50
}

; QWERTY to Dvorak mapping
-::[
=::]

q::'
w::,
e::.
r::p
t::y
y::f
u::g
i::c
o::r
p::l
[::/
]::=

;a::a
s::o
d::e
f::u
g::i
h::d
j::h
k::t
l::n
`;::s
'::-

z::`;
x::q
c::j
v::k
b::x
n::b
;m::m
,::w
.::v
/::z
Title: Wanna Switch - Colemak?
Post by: steeef on Tue, 02 November 2010, 19:24:13
Interested to try this, but kind of wary about dealing with mapped keys in programs like Vim. I'd have to spend time remapping everything. Nice AutoHotkey script though. I may just try it out.
Title: Wanna Switch - Colemak?
Post by: alec on Wed, 03 November 2010, 06:40:49
Quote from: Keymonger;241560
I disagree. I used to be lightning fast at times, but now I'm slower with Dvorak, and more content.
Hmm, but that sort of proves my point. Main selling argument for Colemak is that you will be typing faster because your fingers have to move less. But mostly it is not the case.

With alternative quwerty homerow you do have to move hand off it to hit Backspace.. But then it is additional incentive to be making less mistakes
Title: Wanna Switch - Colemak?
Post by: rickysio on Wed, 03 November 2010, 06:45:50
Quote from: alec;242018
Hmm, but that sort of proves my point. Main selling argument for Colemak is that you will be typing faster because your fingers have to move less. But mostly it is not the case.

With alternative quwerty homerow you do have to move hand off it to hit Backspace.. But then it is additional incentive to be making less mistakes


You know, if you'd just hit the Colemak image in my signature...


Quote
Advantages
Ergonomic and comfortable – Your fingers on QWERTY move 2.2x more than on Colemak. QWERTY has 16x more same hand row jumping than Colemak. There are 35x more words you can type using only the home row on Colemak.
Easy to learn – Allows easy transition from QWERTY. Only 2 keys move between hands. Many common shortcuts (including Ctrl+Z/X/C/V) remain the same. Typing lessons available.
Fast – Most of the typing is done on the strongest and fastest fingers. Low same-finger ratio.
Multilingual – Allows to type in over 40 languages and to type various symbols, e.g. "pâté", "mañana", €, em-dash, non-breaking space.
Free – Free software released under the public domain. You don't have to buy a new keyboard, just install a program.


Realise how it doesn't mention Fast first? AKA, not key selling point.
Title: Wanna Switch - Colemak?
Post by: alec on Wed, 03 November 2010, 06:53:56
Quote from: Keymonger;241560
I disagree. I used to be lightning fast at times, but now I'm slower with Dvorak, and more content.
Hmm, but that sort of proves my point. Main selling argument for Dvorak/Colemak is that you will be typing faster because your fingers have to move less. But mostly it is not the case.

About alternative qwerty homerow: you do have to move hand off it to hit Backspace.. But then it is additional incentive to be making less mistakes :)
Title: Wanna Switch - Colemak?
Post by: noctua on Wed, 03 November 2010, 07:44:22
My burst speed with Qwerty was 83 WPM, with Colemak after 3 month 82 WPM..
True is, i have to practice daily to get my "old" speed as with Qwerty, but the
most important point now is: my hands feels comfortabler with it..

In my earlier Qwerty days i had sometimes become trouble with my left hand..
Title: Wanna Switch - Colemak?
Post by: Keymonger on Wed, 03 November 2010, 09:59:06
Quote from: alec;242022
Hmm, but that sort of proves my point. Main selling argument for Dvorak/Colemak is that you will be typing faster because your fingers have to move less. But mostly it is not the case.


Disagree. When typing in English, your fingers use certain keys more and certain keys less, and other keys not so much. Proper placement of keys that are used most makes a difference. It makes sense that if you have something you reach for often, like a book on a shelf, you put it there so it can be easily and frequently reached for.

Here you can see where your fingers will be the most when you type in English (using some English text sample):

(http://viralintrospection.files.wordpress.com/2010/10/usage-viz-grid2.png)

I think it makes a difference.

Quote from: alec;242022

About alternative qwerty homerow: you do have to move hand off it to hit Backspace.. But then it is additional incentive to be making less mistakes :)

I used to think like that too, but with that kind of logic, you'd end up relegating the backspace all the way to the numeric keypad. Mistakes are inevitable. And it's not just mistakes, but revisions of text also make backspace an oft used key.
Title: Wanna Switch - Colemak?
Post by: woody on Thu, 04 November 2010, 18:44:36
Quote from: alec;241520
?????? Russian

Oh my, oh my. On a certain 8-bit computer the capital letters were in QWERTY, but the lower-case letters were in this (????) Russian layout. Imagine the pain.
We also have local standart (???) for Cyrillic layout, but most prefer phonetic QWERTY-alike layout. Change of layout at runtime kills.
________
AMC Computerized Engine Control (http://www.dodge-wiki.com/wiki/AMC_Computerized_Engine_Control)
Title: Wanna Switch - Colemak?
Post by: noctua on Mon, 22 November 2010, 03:59:31
For all the infidels that believe you can't write faster with an different layout..
After 4 months of Colemak practicing i'm knocking on the 90 WPM door, my old
burst speed with Qwerty was 83 WPM, now with Colemak i reach 87 WPM..
We'll see what is after 5 month of continous practicing..
Title: Wanna Switch - Colemak?
Post by: Moogle Stiltzkin on Mon, 22 November 2010, 04:37:50
Colemak looks interesting, but how will it affect gamers used to WASD for movement ? Games usually come pre binded to qwerty keyboard design :/

o_O;
Title: Wanna Switch - Colemak?
Post by: Kairxa on Mon, 22 November 2010, 04:46:45
Hmm.. I'm wondering. Is it possible to have 2 boards at once, one having colemak layout, and the other qwerty layout?
Title: Wanna Switch - Colemak?
Post by: noctua on Mon, 22 November 2010, 04:51:24
I have built my own keyboard from scratch, also i have implemented an 3-layer layout,
especially for gaming i use my 3rd layer ;-)

Alternatively you use an second qwerty-keyboard, for gaming only..
Title: Wanna Switch - Colemak?
Post by: Kairxa on Mon, 22 November 2010, 04:59:02
Err, what does a 3 layer layout means? Also, I don't really like the idea of building boards from scratch D: Don't have the capability nor time to do it :(

Edit, I think I've found the answer, Portable Keyboard Layout seems useful. :D
Title: Wanna Switch - Colemak?
Post by: Moogle Stiltzkin on Mon, 22 November 2010, 15:12:24
Quote from: noctua;250476
I have built my own keyboard from scratch, also i have implemented an 3-layer layout,
especially for gaming i use my 3rd layer ;-)

Alternatively you use an second qwerty-keyboard, for gaming only..

I can't do that. I only have money for 1 decent keyboard. If colemak is as good for typing as they say i would try it, but i wouldn't do it if its gonna affect my gaming.
Title: Wanna Switch - Colemak?
Post by: Kairxa on Mon, 22 November 2010, 21:45:12
Use Portable Keyboard Layout (http://sourceforge.net/projects/pkl/), it's efficient for daily use.
Title: Wanna Switch - Colemak?
Post by: Tony on Tue, 11 January 2011, 05:15:50
I have touch typed in Qwerty for 15 years with the speed of 60wpm, and I have switched to Colemak (http://Colemak.com) for 40 days by now.

My current speed is 48wpm today, and I expect to get to the 60wpm in 3 months time. My wrists are much more calmer and relaxed.

For natural typing experience I suppose a year's time before you can type fluently without any thinking or full concentration. During that time your brain will learn many specific combinations of typing style for the Colemak layout (just like what I have experienced in learning to touchtype in Qwerty long time ago)

I haven't played much FPS games, but whenever I feel the need to play it, I will happily change the keyboard layout to Qwerty, instantly with a hotkey set up in Regional Settings (Control Panel), to have a good shooting and killing time.

By the way, WASD bunch of keys in shooting games now called WARS in Colemak layout. How appropriate!

(http://img31.imageshack.us/img31/6770/img6764q.jpg)

I have gone all the way and changed my Mitsumi keyboard to Colemak layout
Title: Wanna Switch - Colemak?
Post by: noctua on Tue, 11 January 2011, 05:47:09
Quote from: Tony;276585
...For natural typing experience I suppose a year's time before you can type fluently without any thinking or full concentration...

I also believe that, with my full agreement -- it takes some time, beside the
gain in comfort, i also confirm the average speed improvement in my case..
Title: Wanna Switch - Colemak?
Post by: Tony on Tue, 11 January 2011, 20:49:59
Quote from: Moogle Stiltzkin;250750
I can't do that. I only have money for 1 decent keyboard. If colemak is as good for typing as they say i would try it, but i wouldn't do it if its gonna affect my gaming.


You can switch between Colemak, Dvorak or Qwerty through a hotkey (Regional settings under Control Panel), so your choice of layout doesn't affect your gaming at all. I use Ctrl-Shift-1 for Colemak, Ctrl-Shift-2 for Qwerty.

Whenever you type, use your favorite keyboard layout. When you play games that use WASD or other specific keys in Qwerty you get used to, then turn to Qwerty.

It is like you switch to CNN to watch news, then go to ESPN to watch soccer, then to Cartoon to watch Tom and Jerry. Just press a button.

You don't have to stick to a channel, be it CNN, ESPN or Cartoon Network. So is the layout.
Title: Wanna Switch - Colemak?
Post by: HaaTa on Tue, 11 January 2011, 21:09:36
Been using Colemak for a bit over a year now, no thinking whatsoever to type :P. I've also kept up my old QWERTY typing style for whenever it's needed, though I try not to do much serious typing with it.

Anyways, it took me a good 2 months before I was fully comfortable using Colemak (not up to my QWERTY speed mind you).
Title: Wanna Switch - Colemak?
Post by: Tony on Sat, 15 January 2011, 04:17:43
Here is my graph of typing speed after 40 days in Colemak (http://Colemak.com):

(http://img522.imageshack.us/img522/4489/speedxi.png)

For someone who don't know about the Colemak layout, here is a picture

(http://www.upl.co/uploads//Colemak2.jpg)
Title: Wanna Switch - Colemak?
Post by: eMps on Sat, 15 January 2011, 16:59:48
I really like Colemak so far. I tried Dvorak and C-Dvorak before Colemak, but I didn't really like them. I started this Monday, and I'm already typing 50-55 wpm consistently. The only somewhat common letter combination I've noticed that's properly annoying to type is "you" so far. Hopefully it'll get easier over time. I'm having so much fun learning Colemak! :)
Title: Wanna Switch - Colemak?
Post by: Tony on Sun, 16 January 2011, 01:40:32
Quote from: eMps;279165
I really like Colemak so far. I tried Dvorak and C-Dvorak before Colemak, but I didn't really like them. I started this Monday, and I'm already typing 50-55 wpm consistently. The only somewhat common letter combination I've noticed that's properly annoying to type is "you" so far. Hopefully it'll get easier over time. I'm having so much fun learning Colemak! :)

For me "you", "which", "would", and "people" are the common words difficult to type fast in Colemak (http://Colemak.com).
Title: Wanna Switch - Colemak?
Post by: chimborazo on Mon, 17 January 2011, 00:01:03
i'll pass. i tried it a few times but didn't like it. it certainly is superior than qwerty - speed, efficiency, accuracy, less traveling, etc

dvorak suffers from L and S, but the culprit w/ colemak is the awkward position of the vowels.

colemak is just for right-handed Hawaiians.
Title: Wanna Switch - Colemak?
Post by: msiegel on Mon, 17 January 2011, 00:05:25
a'ole pilikia.

wait, what's wrong with it? :-S
Title: Wanna Switch - Colemak?
Post by: chimborazo on Mon, 17 January 2011, 00:29:47
left-handed Hawaiians is the second suitable group for the layout, since they speak the language
Title: Wanna Switch - Colemak?
Post by: msiegel on Mon, 17 January 2011, 00:36:09
in english, it looks like vowels and consonants alternate a lot.

that means typing with colemak alternates hands a lot, right? :)
Title: Wanna Switch - Colemak?
Post by: Tony on Mon, 17 January 2011, 00:45:33
I am left-handed and my experience with Colemak (http://Colemak.com) is ok so far. My left hand is typing more a bit (Backspace in Capslock key and space).

I suppose learning a layout is a full commitment and it require at least a month with 1-2 hours per day practicing. If you never touch type before, it will be a hellish experience.

Perhaps someone should learn touch type with Qwerty before changing the layout. Otherwise the double toll of touch typing and learning a new layout is too hard on them.
Title: Wanna Switch - Colemak?
Post by: chimborazo on Mon, 17 January 2011, 02:30:24
Quote from: msiegel;279722
in english, it looks like vowels and consonants alternate a lot.

that means typing with colemak alternates hands a lot, right? :)



hello msiegel

you are missing the point here.

alternation isn't my argument.

position of the vowels is.

colemak prioritizes the left hand w/ consonants, the home row - which overworks the heck out of it in the process, and fails to distribute the rows as it should. that's why, if i remember correctly, the qwerty crowd still vouches for theirs since the top row keeps up with speed at the expense of distance.

with that being said, i still think colemak is slightly ahead - ergonomically speaking, but only right-handed Hawaiians would get the most out of it.
Title: Wanna Switch - Colemak?
Post by: Tony on Mon, 17 January 2011, 05:23:43
In Colemak, the left pinky have to press Backspace, so the workload is pretty even between hands. This workload is not recorded in all statistics.
Title: Wanna Switch - Colemak?
Post by: symphonic1985 on Mon, 17 January 2011, 09:04:38
I've been trying to learn Colemak, but I have to say that I'm really struggling with discomfort in my right hand. When I type QWERTY I keep my middle fingers on the top row and my index finger on J. Colemak forces me onto the home row where the shortness of my index finger becomes a huge problem. I can't imagine being comfortable unless the key heights were different. I plan to build an ergo keyboard... until then, I'm not sure that Colemak is right for me.
Title: Wanna Switch - Colemak?
Post by: noctua on Mon, 17 January 2011, 10:35:12
Leave yourself the time you need, you coming from Qwerty, confusions at this early stage
is quite normal. You may remember the "perfect" layout dosn't exist, but you have choosen
one where the finger travel is "comfortable" reduced.. your finger will notice this fact after
the adaptation phase..

this travel reduction has of course it's price, but on the other side qwerty
has an respectable price too ;-)
Title: Wanna Switch - Colemak?
Post by: Keymonger on Mon, 17 January 2011, 10:51:33
A while ago I wanted to design my own layout, using Colemak as a base, with this tool: http://patorjk.com/keyboard-layout-analyzer/

I ended up with something really good, but I didn't save it! I can't remember how I did it, too. You can easily lose hours testing it out though. But anyways, my criteria was different from other layouts. For me, it feels like my middle fingers are the workhorses of my hands. I don't think fingers are equal, in other words. I would love to overload my middle fingers, but I do worry about typing 'flow', whatever that really means. But the easiest way to really find out and what does and does not work, is to design a layout, and try them out. IMO, a layout is not such a big deal for your brain. At least not mine. :P
Title: Wanna Switch - Colemak?
Post by: symphonic1985 on Mon, 17 January 2011, 11:09:15
For the comfortable Colmakers:
How do your fingers rest on the keyboard? If i curl up my fingers to sit on the home row then my index and pinky feel like they are falling off of the keys. towards the bottom. Do you type more with your finger tips near the nail?
Title: Wanna Switch - Colemak?
Post by: Tony on Mon, 17 January 2011, 11:52:06
I had been Qwerty typist before I discovered Colemak, so my fingers are hovering over the home row. Fingers are a bit hovering from keys, so that they could type and perform key combinations.

(http://www.oleviolin.com/boerneprogrammer/Skrivemaskinen/udgangstilling.jpg)

Typing in Colemak makes you feel "tight" since your fingers fly less often, and they mostly rest on the home row. That feeling lasts for 3 weeks, then you will be familiar and even happy with that, since that is the sign of your wrists can relax more.

If you are not a typist, then the switch to Colemak plus touch typing will be very hard on you at the first 3 weeks. You have to train your hand, make fingers stronger as well as building muscle memory for the new layout.

For Qwerty typist, your hands are ready for fast typing but you have to unlearn Qwerty skills and learn new Colemak combos.
Title: Wanna Switch - Colemak?
Post by: noctua on Mon, 17 January 2011, 13:42:31
Quote from: symphonic1985;279826
...being comfortable unless the key heights were different...

taken out of context, but there is some truth in it. i would say the keys have
to follow the "curved" line of fingers.. there are two keyboards on the market
that are curved, the Kinesis and the Maltron. The latter looks good, the other
one the Kinesis has some design failures in my opinion..
Title: Wanna Switch - Colemak?
Post by: symphonic1985 on Tue, 18 January 2011, 05:21:38
Thanks for the picture Tony. Your wrists are much more aligned than mine. When I QWERTY I hold them each at quite a large angle.

I've put the F keycaps on the index and pinky keys and it feels much better. I am typing this in Colemak at about 40 wpm. My right wrist hurts a little but nowhere near as bad as was before. I couldn't type Colemak for more than a minute without a lot of discomfort before.

I'm still determined to make my own layout with thumb keys... but I will try Colemak for a bit longer while doing that to learn more about what typing styles I like the most.
Title: Wanna Switch - Colemak?
Post by: Tony on Tue, 18 January 2011, 09:48:35
40wpm is a good speed. My current speed is 50wpm and my max Qwerty is 60wpm, so you have done well.

To feel comfortable, at least you should spend a year or so typing in Colemak layout, to learn some specific key combinations that make you type faster.

For fun, you may want to try Typeracer (http://Typeracer.com) (online), Typing of the Dead or Typershark (http://www.mediafire.com/?3iytml19xm9) (offline). It helps me a lot.

Colemak doesn't make me type faster, but makes me more comfortable and relaxed while typing.
Title: Wanna Switch - Colemak?
Post by: symphonic1985 on Tue, 25 January 2011, 17:16:33
To drop a quick update - I hit a new high score of 48 at high games (1 min test) today and a bunch of mid 40s. I was typing on my newly arrived MX 11800 which seems to make a BIG difference for my Colemak comfort. My right hand is responding better to the light keys and is more relaxed. Hopefully this continues.

I am still very unhappy about the high central column usage. I groan whenever I have to type a 'g'. And even 'l' is annoying when you're perched on the home row the rest of the time. It really breaks my flow.
Title: Wanna Switch - Colemak?
Post by: Tony on Tue, 25 January 2011, 20:24:43
Another Compaq 11800 user here. I also find typing on it very relaxing. The right hand now can type such Colemak trigraphs and diagraphs like "you", "ly", "ion", "oil"... faster and at ease.

For exercise, I am pratising g,k,l,f right now.
Title: Wanna Switch - Colemak?
Post by: Moogle Stiltzkin on Thu, 27 January 2011, 09:26:40
Quote from: Tony;278930
Here is my graph of typing speed after 40 days in Colemak (http://Colemak.com):

Show Image
(http://img522.imageshack.us/img522/4489/speedxi.png)


For someone who don't know about the Colemak layout, here is a picture

Show Image
(http://img842.imageshack.us/img842/9264/colemak2.jpg)



So using your picture as an example,

to change from US ansi to colemak i need to

1. rearrange the existing keys like that

2. buy an extra backspace key

?
Title: Wanna Switch - Colemak?
Post by: Tony on Thu, 27 January 2011, 21:51:27
@Moogle Stiltzkin: You don't have to rearrange the keys or buy anything at all. For convenience, I leave the keyboard intact and learn touch type. I don't look at the keyboard, so key placement is not an issue.

Go to colemak.com, install the software. You will be able to switch back and forth from Colemak to Qwerty with a hot key (in case of playing games, for example).
Title: Wanna Switch - Colemak?
Post by: notlofty on Sat, 29 January 2011, 03:25:19
I also use Colemak! I never learned to touchtype so when I was sophomore in college, 3 years ago, I decided I would teach myself. Being the nerd that I am, I'm on geek hack now lol, I thought if I was going to learn I'd learn right and learn a more efficient layout. I used it on and off for a few months and then finally went and permanently switched. Now I type at about 80wpm with it.
The only problem's I've really experienced using an obscure layout is when I have to input text in Chinese. The Chinese reverts back to to qwerty unless I change the layout in the registry which isn't always good for games. Anyone know how I can input simplified characters using pinyin input with the Colemak layout?
Title: Wanna Switch - Colemak?
Post by: Tony on Thu, 24 February 2011, 10:10:53
(http://www.upl.co/uploads/typeracerspeed.jpg)

After 80 days since switching from Qwerty, my Colemak (http://colemak.com) speed reach my old Qwerty speed, 60wpm.

Hopefully I can get to 70wpm in a few months.
Title: Wanna Switch - Colemak?
Post by: noctua on Thu, 24 February 2011, 13:37:13
if you want it, you get it - i'm sure. where are many qwerty sheeps on the
typeracer road - i know this because i was one of them earlier..  ;-)
Title: Wanna Switch - Colemak?
Post by: jpc on Thu, 24 February 2011, 21:37:23
first full Colemak week
twenty-two words per minute
a relaxing pace :)
Title: Wanna Switch - Colemak?
Post by: jpc on Thu, 24 February 2011, 21:44:07
Kinesis Contoured
Colemak, home row, no looking
Relearning to type
Title: Wanna Switch - Colemak?
Post by: noctua on Fri, 25 February 2011, 08:04:03
same for me, with begin of colemak practicing my relearning to type starts too and
continued until today, time to find and remove all these earlier mistypings. i'm now
in my seventh month.. but there is the light at the end of the tunnel..  ;-)
Title: Wanna Switch - Colemak?
Post by: jpc on Mon, 28 February 2011, 22:31:22
Sweet. I just tested 30 wpm. This is after 8 days of full time Colemak touch typing on a radically shaped keyboard (the Kinesis)

Stick with it folks, you'll get there.
Title: Wanna Switch - Colemak?
Post by: noctua on Fri, 04 March 2011, 09:17:12
With begin on the 8th month of my colemak practicing, i've got an home run on
my selfmade colemak keyboard..

(http://geekhack.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=15771&stc=1&d=1299251573)
Title: Wanna Switch - Colemak?
Post by: Rairden on Sun, 06 March 2011, 01:53:35
noctua, how much extra speed do you think I could get?  I average 110 wpm, and yesterday I got 117 wpm on http://freetypinggame.net/free-typing-test.asp

I've read a lot that the comfort bonus is tremendous and reason enough to switch.  But I only want to switch if it will give me 20-30+ wpm.  Have you heard stories of 100 wpm+ people gaining much?
Title: Wanna Switch - Colemak?
Post by: noctua on Sun, 06 March 2011, 03:53:05
I know at least two typists at typeracer.com who types +100WPM average with
the colemak layout - one of them uses the TypeMatrix 2030 keyboard...
Just as much or more that use the dvorak layout..

The +100 region isn't really comfortable.. i think this is dependend on your personally
predisposition, more an practicing issue and also how fast you capture the texts..

The discomfort with qwerty is already known, some typists at typeracer has
switched to an alternative layout - for me is colemak an clear improvement
in comfort and speed - and i'm older then the most typists on typeracer..

Each layout has it's awkward combinations also colemak, if you want top
your average by 20-30WPM stay with qwerty and practice until your hands
hurt - i'm not the oracle - i have chosen the calmer way.. ask me in a year ;-)
Title: Wanna Switch - Colemak?
Post by: Tony on Sun, 06 March 2011, 06:20:59
(http://www.upl.co/uploads/noctua.jpg)

Head to head with you at Typeracer, noctua.

@rairden: Changing the layout from Qwerty to Colemak/Dvorak usually cannot make you type faster, but your hands are less tired while typing.

Personally, in Qwerty I am 60wpm, now I am 62wpm in Colemak.
Title: Wanna Switch - Colemak?
Post by: Keymonger on Mon, 07 March 2011, 08:45:19
The layout can definitely make a difference in speed, but I think it's more about comfort really. I think that any layout that doesn't make the weak fingers do too much work will be fast. Dvorak did the opposite and I was never really fast with it; around 65 wpm after using it for 7 months. It's been less than two months since I switched to a custom layout and I'm already hitting 60 wpm.
Title: Wanna Switch - Colemak?
Post by: Input Nirvana on Tue, 08 March 2011, 18:12:06
Has anyone reviewed the CARPALX (http://mkweb.bcgsc.ca/carpalx/?) website to see the improved and/or fully optimized layout versions of Colemak, etc...? I use Colemak (on a Kinesis Contoured) and am happy, but I wanted to know if anyone has carried it a step or two further. If so, I'd like to hear others thoughts on this.

I fully recognize that it becomes a matter of splitting hairs, but it's interesting from a knowledge standpoint.
Title: Wanna Switch - Colemak?
Post by: Tony on Tue, 08 March 2011, 20:07:58
If ZXCVQWA keys is not locked, or balanced workload is not considered, there are a lot of more optimal layout than Colemak, but with less than 1% difference.

Try this:
qwulpkmyf;[]\
riaohdtens’
zxcvjgb,./

This layout has shorter key travel, but put most used E and T to the right hand, which is imbalanced.
Title: Wanna Switch - Colemak?
Post by: Input Nirvana on Tue, 08 March 2011, 22:11:48
Quote from: Tony;308155
If ZXCVQWA keys is not locked, or balanced workload is not considered, there are a lot of more optimal layout than Colemak, but with less than 1% difference.

Try this:
qwulpkmyf;[]\
riaohdtens’
zxcvjgb,./

This layout has shorter key travel, but put most used E and T to the right hand, which is imbalanced.




Thanks, exactly the input I was looking for. There are several interesting ways to have a layout, and at some point, because of the number and frequency, there can be several with no net gain, just canceling out gains/losses. I'm not a multiple thousands of words a day typist, so I'm not in it for the practical aspect. Although I would consider switching or maybe swapping a few letters for a perceived gain.

Taking a look at qwulpk right now...
Title: Wanna Switch - Colemak?
Post by: noctua on Wed, 09 March 2011, 01:29:25
Tony: do you use qwulpk current?
Title: Wanna Switch - Colemak?
Post by: Tony on Wed, 09 March 2011, 02:10:15
@noctua: No, I've just converted to Colemak from Qwerty and that's ergonomic enough for me.
Title: Wanna Switch - Colemak?
Post by: Tony on Mon, 30 May 2011, 05:01:04
My switching process from Qwerty to Colemak is complete and I am now typing with 63 wpm average - 3pm gain from Qwerty speed.

Here is my day by day experience, for your reference (http://forum.colemak.com/viewtopic.php?id=970).
Title: Wanna Switch - Colemak?
Post by: noctua on Tue, 31 May 2011, 07:41:20
Thanks for sharing your experience, i've seen you sometimes on typeracer,
thats good.. the minority group of colemak typists becomes increased
with each typist ;) i have taken a look at your statistic there.. enough
room for further improvements.. i'm sure, see you on the road!
Title: Wanna Switch - Colemak?
Post by: Tony on Wed, 31 August 2011, 21:27:44
Thanks, the number of Colemak users are steadily increasing over time. But the Colemak is not for everyone.

In my office, none of my work colleagues can touch type. They are impressed by my touchtyping with Ninja keycaps (no legends on top) but only the research department understand the ergonomics of Colemak.

They feel that they will never be able to leave Qwerty comfort zone. I agree with them that the investment in changing layout is quite stressing for most of people and Colemak is not for everyone.

I think that Qwerty typists are most likely to be impressed and motivated to switch to Colemak, since you can only see the inefficiency of Qwerty when touch typing for a long time.
Title: Wanna Switch - Colemak?
Post by: Input Nirvana on Thu, 01 September 2011, 00:02:55
Quote from: Tony;408460
I think that Qwerty typists are most likely to be impressed and motivated to switch to Colemak, since you can only see the inefficiency of Qwerty when touch typing for a long time.

Maybe, but I've never been able to have Qwerty work for me. I'm a much better touch typist on Colemak than I ever was on Qwerty. I don't know if I've ever mentioned that here or not, I think I always say it's more comfortable.
Title: Wanna Switch - Colemak?
Post by: Symmetry on Thu, 01 September 2011, 00:56:03
I really want to switch to Colemak, but I'm at ~110 on rubber domes and, based on testing of other mechanical keyboards, I'm confident I could transcribe at ~115-120 on the right switches. Colemak would improve my efficiency a great deal, as I'm a pianist so rolls and alternating digraphs are first nature to me. However, I'm not sure I can stand typing at 40 WPM or less for a few months until I regain reasonable speed!

Help! I'm trapped in a dilemma!
Title: Wanna Switch - Colemak?
Post by: Tony on Thu, 01 September 2011, 01:34:50
Quote from: Symmetry;408537
I really want to switch to Colemak, but I'm at ~110 on rubber domes and, based on testing of other mechanical keyboards, I'm confident I could transcribe at ~115-120 on the right switches. Colemak would improve my efficiency a great deal, as I'm a pianist so rolls and alternating digraphs are first nature to me. However, I'm not sure I can stand typing at 40 WPM or less for a few months until I regain reasonable speed!

Help! I'm trapped in a dilemma!

Colemak is not for everyone, so if you are too afraid, don't switch. But if you are excited and afraid at the same time, then go for it.

The typing speed is a log curve, so in a month you can get half your Qwerty speed (50wpm). I suppose that is fast enough to do typing work.

The first three weeks will be like hell, but from then on it will be better as you get used to Colemak.

In three to 6 months you can regain your Qwerty speed, and can go past that (My Colemak speed is 4wpm faster).
Title: Wanna Switch - Colemak?
Post by: bluecar5556 on Sat, 03 September 2011, 19:19:39
From typing 90-100wpm on QWERTY and after switching to Colemak, i'm probably up to 60-70wpm approx. 3 months later.  As I say, accuracy first then speed will follow naturally.

That being said, i'm so relieved after switching and glad I did.  My fingers feel like they are running a few miles a day instead of all the way through downtown.

[ATTACH=CONFIG]25637[/ATTACH]
Title: Wanna Switch - Colemak?
Post by: jpc on Sat, 03 September 2011, 20:06:47
I'm still not quite up to my old QWERTY speed. 65wpm Colemak vs. 75 QWERTY. That's after 25 years of practice on QWERTY.

I've been more COMFORTABLE since switching to Colemak and simultaneously learning to touch type. Comfort and hand health is my goal. Colemak does well at that. So I'm happy with it and would switch again.
Title: Wanna Switch - Colemak?
Post by: sordna on Sat, 03 September 2011, 22:26:38
My dvorak surpassed my qwerty 5 years ago. Recently I've been practicing qwerty again, getting 70+ WPM on my KBC Poker (on dvorak/kinesis I get 100+). I'd go with colemak if I had to start all over again, but it's probably not worth it now because dvorak is good enough. So I'm sticking with it.
Title: Wanna Switch - Colemak?
Post by: Tony on Sun, 04 September 2011, 04:45:05
A nice review for you to read

Alternative Layout Review (http://geekhack.org/showwiki.php?title=Island:10018)

By the way, I found geekhack forum while searching for some layout review, then I stumbled on this one. It is excellently written by Viett, a user who has tried Dvorak and Colemak, with 100+wpm speed on both.
Title: Wanna Switch - Colemak?
Post by: Deverica Wolf on Tue, 20 September 2011, 18:19:17
Quote from: Tony;408555
Colemak is not for everyone, so if you are too afraid, don't switch. But if you are excited and afraid at the same time, then go for it.

The typing speed is a log curve, so in a month you can get half your Qwerty speed (50wpm). I suppose that is fast enough to do typing work.

The first three weeks will be like hell, but from then on it will be better as you get used to Colemak.

In three to 6 months you can regain your Qwerty speed, and can go past that (My Colemak speed is 4wpm faster).


Funny you say that because it took me exactly three weeks until I learned to type Colemak quickly. In those three weeks, I could actually feel my brain hurting from the confusion of what keys to press. It sucked...I thought I was gonna cry! I felt like quitting. But I am glad I stuck with it. I highly recommend switching to everyone.
Title: Wanna Switch - Colemak?
Post by: cactux on Tue, 20 September 2011, 18:24:36
Quote from: Deverica Wolf;419283
Funny you say that because it took me exactly three weeks until I learned to type Colemak quickly. In those three weeks, I could actually feel my brain hurting from the confusion of what keys to press. It sucked...I thought I was gonna cry! I felt like quitting. But I am glad I stuck with it. I highly recommend switching to everyone.

I know that frustration when I switch to Dvorak. Switching from QWERTY -> Colemak is not that  painful compare to QWERTY -> Dvorak
Title: Wanna Switch - Colemak?
Post by: Playtrumpet on Tue, 20 September 2011, 19:07:19
Dvorak is sooo different though. With only 2 keys the same from Qwerty (A and M), making that switch requires more rewiring of your brain/fingers/muscles. Either way, if you're gonna switch layouts, you should be ready for a challenge.
Title: Wanna Switch - Colemak?
Post by: chario on Sat, 19 November 2011, 21:03:56
First week is painful if you switch to other layout.

I was going to be full-time Dvorak user but programming hobby converted me to Colemak user.
I started learning Colemak on Nov 4th, 2011 after 20+ years of Qwerty touch typing.  I practice Colemak sixty minutes to ninety minutes every day. I already broke the top speed of my Qwerty at 50 - 53wpm.

Colemak with a decent mechanical keyboard probably makes your hands smile all the time.
Title: Wanna Switch - Colemak?
Post by: Tony on Sun, 20 November 2011, 08:06:04
Yes, I am typing Colemak with a Filco brown and my fingers are happy.
Title: Wanna Switch - Colemak?
Post by: trax on Sun, 20 November 2011, 17:47:19
I'm used to a dutch azerty (probably one of the most retarded layouts ever made) and just purchased a blank (otaku?) keyboard with standard us layout.

qwerty was going to be new for me but this seems better, seems like I'm going to get this instead :)
Title: Wanna Switch - Colemak?
Post by: fireball87 on Thu, 01 December 2011, 22:52:24
I plan to learn Colemak right after I finish school (this is my final year).  I plan to dedicate some time to independent projects anyway, so that should guarantee I have the free time to actually do it.  I figure, it's something that I won't see much benefit for right away, but it will add up.  Will be a bit sad to go from my current 90 to slow, but I'll get over it and get it back anyway.  I once tried learning Dvorak, but it annoyed me when I was trying to code having the symbols thrown all over the keyboard when I was trying to code... and I had to write a few papers.
Title: Wanna Switch - Colemak?
Post by: Tony on Fri, 02 December 2011, 02:35:04
Quote from: fireball87;462532
I plan to learn Colemak right after I finish school (this is my final year).  I plan to dedicate some time to independent projects anyway, so that should guarantee I have the free time to actually do it.  I figure, it's something that I won't see much benefit for right away, but it will add up.  Will be a bit sad to go from my current 90 to slow, but I'll get over it and get it back anyway.  I once tried learning Dvorak, but it annoyed me when I was trying to code having the symbols thrown all over the keyboard when I was trying to code... and I had to write a few papers.

You should reserve three weeks for the switching time, when you have no serious typing work. After that period you will be Colemak fluent enough to type emails/thesis etc.
Title: Wanna Switch - Colemak?
Post by: davkol on Fri, 02 December 2011, 17:32:17
Lorem ipsum dolor sit amet, consectetur adipiscing elit, sed do eiusmod tempor incididunt ut labore et dolore magna aliqua. Ut enim ad minim veniam, quis nostrud exercitation ullamco laboris nisi ut aliquip ex ea commodo consequat. Duis aute irure dolor in reprehenderit in voluptate velit esse cillum dolore eu fugiat nulla pariatur. Excepteur sint occaecat cupidatat non proident, sunt in culpa qui officia deserunt mollit anim id est laborum.
Title: Wanna Switch - Colemak?
Post by: Input Nirvana on Sat, 03 December 2011, 21:10:48
Quote from: trax;456362
I'm used to a dutch azerty (probably one of the most retarded layouts ever made) and just purchased a blank (otaku?) keyboard with standard us layout.

qwerty was going to be new for me but this seems better, seems like I'm going to get this instead :)

Trax, your avatar is THE SPANK! I almost go into convulsive seizures if I look at it for more than a few seconds. Then I can't type regardless of the layout I'm using. LOL
Title: Wanna Switch - Colemak?
Post by: Tony on Mon, 05 December 2011, 02:21:37
Quote from: dante;463945
My only real complaint is that these autoscript programs do not work on windows login screens (I don't know if the situation is different on other operating systems.)

Microsoft support: Since there are several users on every computer to login, so we do not know which user use Colemak/Dvorak or Qwerty. Only when your password have been checked we will set up Colemak for you if your profile is set to Colemak.
Title: Wanna Switch - Colemak?
Post by: JBert on Mon, 05 December 2011, 08:19:20
I've used the setup.exe from the Colemak website, then I've changed my Windows settings to make it selectable at login. If you share your PC, make sure to keep a sane default though.
Title: Wanna Switch - Colemak?
Post by: oneproduct on Mon, 05 December 2011, 09:13:08
You can also just install a Windows language pack for it (available on the Colemak site) so that it shows up in regional and languages settings. You can then add it to your list of keyboard languages and pick which one you want as default. This lets you use it in all places, including the login screen, but also lets you switch anytime you want as well using a hotkey. My default is Colemak but left alt + left shift changes to QWERTY.

For Mac and Unix they have Colemak available by default so you don't have to install anything special.
Title: Wanna Switch - Colemak?
Post by: dorkvader on Mon, 05 December 2011, 12:47:32
I still have my password in dvorak layout for my QWERTY computer. It's just as easy to type in, and doesn't make a real difference in use.
Title: Wanna Switch - Colemak?
Post by: Tony on Wed, 07 December 2011, 01:34:11
For passwords, since Colemak has qwahzxcvbm common keys with Qwerty, you can set a password that contains only these keys with some numbers to make it fine to type in either layout.
Title: Wanna Switch - Colemak?
Post by: Tony on Sat, 17 March 2012, 02:42:18
Just one note: Colemak is 6% preference to the right hand, while Dvorak is 14% to the right and Qwerty is 15% to the left (Qwerty got most used E and T keys to the left hand)

So for balance between hands, Colemak is most balanced between three layouts, leaning a bit toward to the right hand. Most of us are right handed too.
Title: Wanna Switch - Colemak?
Post by: stingrae on Thu, 05 April 2012, 08:48:26
Just hit 50 wpm on basic text in just 2 months and 1 week. The most I hit in qwerty with poor technique was 60 wpm so I am sufficiently close at this point so much so that I doubt the actual speed difference is that much. With time should get much much better and be able to cope with more text still need to work on using the correct shift as sometimes that bad habit takes over.
Title: Wanna Switch - Colemak?
Post by: Tony on Thu, 05 April 2012, 23:24:43
Colemak or any other layouts give you comfort while typing, not 20wpm speed gain.

For speed you will type a bit faster, since all most frequently used keys are in the home row. 5wpm gain would be realistic.
Title: Wanna Switch - Colemak?
Post by: Input Nirvana on Sun, 08 April 2012, 11:43:20
Yea, speed wpm is not the only criteria. Same speed using less effort translates to being able to type longer...so therefore produce more.

Several ways of looking at it.
Title: Re: Wanna Switch - Colemak?
Post by: Burz on Thu, 30 August 2012, 06:07:08
I started touch typing with Colemak around the beginning of spring and practiced every day for the first 8 weeks -- but only sporadically after that. The point at which I really switched over was about 30wpm, although I didn't feel comfortable until I could sustain 40-45wpm.

Before Colemak I was only a 4-finger typist; I did not touch type at all and my average speed on Qwerty was about 50wpm. Now I'm at that speed with Colemak touch typing, and have been for a couple months. My accuracy is about 94% for actual text, and about 97% in Amphetype. Getting to 60wpm would be nice, so I plan to resume practice to get to that speed.

As you can imagine, learning touch typing was very hard esp. when you come from 50wpm speed on Qwerty and with no touch typing experience. Barring language barriers, it seems like the worst of all worlds. Someone with no typing experience would probably suffer less frustration than I did because they have no history or expectation of being able to just sit down and do 50wpm.

The two factors that were at least of some comfort were my pristine and new (to me) Dell AT-101W Alps board, and of course Colemak itself. With the drastically reduced hand and finger movement, I knew by the time I reached 12wpm that I wanted to stick with Colemak (and I'm so glad I did)!

If I could point to any mistake that held me back, it would be starting Colemak (or any layout) without the intention to stay relaxed and accurate. Forcing yourself and correcting too much won't allow you the mental breathing space to develop helpful techniques.

--
P.S.
I do find it a bit perplexing when people suggest that Colemak causes 'compatibility' problems because it is too different from Qwerty, and then suggest an alternative layout that changes slightly less keys. Any time you wish to stick with any alternative layout there is some potential for disappointment. Personally, I do not find it a challenge to momentarily switch to Qwerty when I'm in a situation were I can't use Colemak (it may be easier for me than others, because Qwerty is entirely different for me with look-hunt-and-peck).

If you think you *might* like Colemak, then give it a try anyway and see if you can get up to 20wpm and see how you feel after 4-5 weeks.

--
P.P.S.

I did look into some of the other alternatives like CarpalX, Workman and Dvorak before deciding to try Colemak. None of them seemed to offer a clear advantage over Colemak, and though I occasionally considered Dvorak over decades I guess it never pulled me in because the analysis behind it and the results were too feeble for it to really shine. And despite Microsoft being asleep as usual, having built-in support in Ubuntu and OS X really matters so Colemak it is. If I ever try another layout, it will be something more radical like Arensito; IMHO we've gotten about all we're ever going to get from the current set of assumptions about key placement and modifiers.
Title: Re: Wanna Switch - Colemak?
Post by: Tony on Mon, 17 September 2012, 22:05:44
Very nice to hear another success story from a Colemak user. Hopefully one day Microsoft will include several popular layouts into Windows OS.
Title: Re: Wanna Switch - Colemak?
Post by: sth on Mon, 17 September 2012, 22:07:08
Very nice to hear another success story from a Colemak user. Hopefully one day Microsoft will include several popular layouts into Windows OS.
Wanna switch? OS X includes Colemak and Dvorak out of the box :D
Title: Re: Wanna Switch - Colemak?
Post by: sordna on Mon, 17 September 2012, 23:14:31
Why doesn't this page (http://colemak.com/wiki/index.php?title=Mac) mention that OS X has Colemak built-in as of 10.7 (Lion) ?  Whoever is involved with colemak.com please update that page :-)
Title: Re: Wanna Switch - Colemak?
Post by: Input Nirvana on Fri, 21 September 2012, 23:57:53
Why doesn't this page (http://colemak.com/wiki/index.php?title=Mac) mention that OS X has Colemak built-in as of 10.7 (Lion) ?  Whoever is involved with colemak.com please update that page :-)

Interesting, in the forums people were talking about Colemake being in 10.7 back in the beta days, and once Lion was released. So it has been known....
Title: Re: Wanna Switch - Colemak?
Post by: bnitch on Sat, 22 September 2012, 20:42:07
Seems like most of you are already good typists and are just trying to reach your normal speeds with colemak, I on the other hand never took a typing course and have for years just used 4 fingers at the most. So if I wanted to get serious about typing ( having just gotten a mech. keyboard ) would it be worth switching the keys around to match Colemak and starting to learn to type from almost scratch with it? I'm the only one who uses the keyboard so it won't disturb anyone else. I guess what I'm asking is if you woke up one day and had forgotten how to type what system would you use.
I also only use Linux if that would make any difference.
Title: Re: Wanna Switch - Colemak?
Post by: Input Nirvana on Sat, 22 September 2012, 20:54:21
Colemak.
Title: Re: Wanna Switch - Colemak?
Post by: Burz on Sat, 22 September 2012, 21:38:27
I would use Colemak. If you read above about my experience with it, you'll see that I started in the same spot as you... 4-finger typist for decades, then decided to "get serious". I already knew Qwerty was crap, so I looked for the nicest layout I could find for normal keyboards. IMO, Colemak is it or very close to it.

Leaving the keys themselves in Qwerty configuration probably made no difference. I had a printout of Colemak from colemak.com which I left under my monitor and then discarded after a few weeks.
Title: Re: Wanna Switch - Colemak?
Post by: Input Nirvana on Sat, 22 September 2012, 21:58:00
Colemak.
Title: Re: Wanna Switch - Colemak?
Post by: Tony on Wed, 26 September 2012, 09:16:10
Seems like most of you are already good typists and are just trying to reach your normal speeds with colemak, I on the other hand never took a typing course and have for years just used 4 fingers at the most. So if I wanted to get serious about typing ( having just gotten a mech. keyboard ) would it be worth switching the keys around to match Colemak and starting to learn to type from almost scratch with it? I'm the only one who uses the keyboard so it won't disturb anyone else. I guess what I'm asking is if you woke up one day and had forgotten how to type what system would you use.
I also only use Linux if that would make any difference.

Definitely yes. There are plenty of people like you who learn touch typing and Colemak at the same time. For more switching experiences and success stories, you can read here

http://forum.colemak.com/viewforum.php?id=6
Title: Re: Wanna Switch - Colemak?
Post by: xyril on Fri, 28 September 2012, 03:01:14
I share you my progression / experience video :)

7 weeks in colemak .


I took 1 year for touchtyping for qwerty with 181wpm.

and for 7 weeks in colemak, the result it absolutely astonishing !!

= My highest is 140 wpm - 135 wpm. Which is like 1/5 of  qwerty learning process ^^...


heres a link , u can view other video if u you want

www.youtube.com/xyrilvlog
feature=plcp
Title: Re: Wanna Switch - Colemak?
Post by: Burz on Fri, 28 September 2012, 13:11:34
That's impressive, xyril. I wish I could type that fast.
Title: Re: Wanna Switch - Colemak?
Post by: jwaz on Fri, 28 September 2012, 13:39:39
Woah, that is so fast... I'm at about 25wpm after a week -.-
Title: Re: Wanna Switch - Colemak?
Post by: bnitch on Tue, 30 October 2012, 10:11:24
Also my left little finger has no feeling in it and only some in my left ring finger. Still Colemak?
Title: Re: Wanna Switch - Colemak?
Post by: gameaholic on Tue, 30 October 2012, 13:20:55
I've got a colemak cooler that I fill with beer from time to time.  It works pretty well, but sometimes it seems like the ice melts a little faster than it should.  I don't know if the insulation inside the plastic degrades with age or what...

Just saw something on mythbusters that said to add salt and water to the ice in a cooler.  Helps cool the beer faster.   The water gets so cold it can be painful to put your hand in sometimes though. 
Title: Re: Wanna Switch - Colemak?
Post by: Burz on Tue, 30 October 2012, 13:52:34
Also my left little finger has no feeling in it and only some in my left ring finger. Still Colemak?
Sure... Only one thing changes for the two leftmost fingers: S to R. Colemak will not make a difference for those two, but switching to touch typing will.

Also, don't arrange your keys for Colemak; just print the layout instead. You're not supposed to look at the keys.
Title: Re: Wanna Switch - Colemak?
Post by: Input Nirvana on Tue, 30 October 2012, 23:14:40
Although everybody does it, I did too, looking at keys completely defeats the purpose of learning a layout to touch type.

:)
Title: Re: Wanna Switch - Colemak?
Post by: Tony on Thu, 01 November 2012, 03:48:55
Most typists do not learn the number row, so to type such $@#$^&(&* they neeed to look at the keyboard and it slows them down. Luckily such symbols are rare in normal text
Title: Re: Wanna Switch - Colemak?
Post by: davkol on Thu, 01 November 2012, 16:06:25
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Title: Re: Wanna Switch - Colemak?
Post by: Rinsaku on Thu, 01 November 2012, 21:13:47
Ah It was about this time last year that i made the switch to colemak. Right before though, i had given dvorak a try. Though it did feel some of the wrist strain was minimalized, i was still having trouble with the workload on the pinkies. Colemak was a fine switch and i like that the bottom row was kept intact for shortcuts. I know i struggled for about 5 months but shortly after i climbed past my highest wpm was like 74-75, fast forward to now, i type almost 90 wpm, which is not all that great, but i was stuck at 75 for like 10 years >.< I know i would never go back. And the few times i forget my thumbdrive with my colemak layout on it, it lets me know how sloppy qwerty can be. Once i got the layout down i practiced by copying a pdf of a novel onto a wordpad. plently of material to keep you busy... as well as a good read. ^_^
Title: Re: Wanna Switch - Colemak?
Post by: jwaz on Sat, 10 November 2012, 20:35:07
Just finished programming Colemak into the Aikon on my MXMini. Now to do some cool function layer stuff like home row UNEI arrow clusters (IJKL for QWERTY)


Best justification for a Korean custom :cool:
Title: Re: Wanna Switch - Colemak?
Post by: Tony on Wed, 09 January 2013, 07:41:08
For Qwerty users, Colemak seems to be the most preferred alternative layout available.
Title: Re: Wanna Switch - Colemak?
Post by: sordna on Sun, 03 March 2013, 22:01:28
Hi,
for those of you who are maintaining both QWERTY and Colemak (or other layout) skills, please post your WPMs here:

If you know 2 keyboard layouts post your current WPM for each (http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=40823.0)
Title: Re: Wanna Switch - Colemak?
Post by: Tony on Tue, 24 December 2013, 01:42:06
Three year anniversary with Colemak. Three happy years! 15 years of Qwerty is not bad, but Colemak is much better than Qwerty.

I now type at an average of 70wpm, 15wpm more than with Qwerty. Switching is really tough at first, but the reward are long-term

Best luck to all of you guys.
Title: Re: Wanna Switch - Colemak?
Post by: yasuo on Tue, 24 December 2013, 02:02:35
tony,when  you switch to colemak you change  the layout with changing keycap or with sticker or blank keycaps?
Title: Re: Wanna Switch - Colemak?
Post by: Tony on Tue, 24 December 2013, 02:40:04
tony,when  you switch to colemak you change  the layout with changing keycap or with sticker or blank keycaps?

I didn't change the keycaps at all, but kept a printed Colemak layout on paper and on screen, with small Qwerty notion to show which Colemak key is equivalent to which Qwerty key.

Not changing the keycaps has its own benefit of getting rid of bad habit of looking at the keyboard while typing. If you accidentally look at Qwerty keycaps, it can't help, so you don't look at it but look at the layout paper in front of you.

After three weeks, I could type at 25wpm, so I didn't look at that paper anymore.