Author Topic: about the separation of "vendor" GB into the separate subforum....  (Read 22484 times)

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Offline skuko

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first let me preface this with the following:

i joined geekhack in may last year, so my perception of certain things and processes on GH may be wrong/skewed due to lack of experience. furthermore, i'd like to state beforehand, that this is by no means an attack on any GH member or GB runner, i have the utmost respect for everyone who has the nerves and dedication to run a GB.

now...
a couple of weeks ago, a decision was made to move the macross GB into the Signature Plastics (SP) subforum. i have no idea who or why made this decision, but i think it is bad. let me explain why:

1. the cap design, IC and surrounding discussion was run by a GH member here on GH.
2. SP only provides a platform for the administrative work, which i guess is pretty exhausting, unless you have your own (kudos to bunny and the team at ctrl alt for developing their own)
3. i'm not convinced that SP is doing this to gain any exclusivity for GBs or any significant sales revenue (since they're doing stuff en masse for big vendors, if i'm not mistaken)
4. there already are negative remarks about this by GH members who missed this GB because of reduced visibility

all in all, i don't think that running GBs through the SP platform is any different than say BunnyLake running GBs through the ctrl alt website - it is merely a tool for making the GB run easier and smoother (provided that the bugs are ironed out), the GB design, IC and everything leading up to the actual GB is managed by GH members, as far as i can tell.

separating it only hurts both the GB and the community in my opinion.

i'd like to hear the reasoning behind this decision.

thank you

edit: proposed solution - create a subforum WITHIN the GB forum, labeled appropriately, i.e. "vendor group buys" and congregate all GBs from people labeled as "vendor" there. this would

1. separate the "professional" buys from the pure GH ones
2. solve the problem with the lack of exposure

edit2: probably the best solution by JD:
I'm a mod, and here's my opinion.

I think all community group buys should be placed in geekhack marketplace > group buys. If a commercial vendor is doing their own design, it should go under their vendor forum. But keycap group buys which were designed by community members or "non-commercial" vendors, regardless of the venue used to organize the group buy, should stay in the group buys forum.

Also, I think we need to make a bigger distinction between so-called "Commercial Vendors" whose main enterprise is the sale of keyboards and related accoutrements, but who maintain a forum presence for exposure and accessibility; and "Artisans" or "Community Vendors" whose main purpose here on Geekhack is as community members, but who also sell goods and/or services as a side operation.



« Last Edit: Fri, 14 March 2014, 04:35:33 by skuko »

Offline Krogenar

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Re: about the separation of "vendor" GB into the separate subforum....
« Reply #1 on: Tue, 11 March 2014, 14:49:25 »
What about putting vendor sponsored GB's into the same thread as all the rest, but mark out the first post clearly as being sponsored by a vendor? Then all the groupbuys are in one place, and can be found. I don't find the distinction between traditional and sponsored GBs to be an important one, but it is to some people.

I don't believe the Macross GB was put into the vendor thread in an attempt to reduce the visibility (give the mod staff the benefit of the doubt) -- but that is what happened. People just assumed all the groupbuys would be found in a single place -- the groupbuy subforum. This reasonable assumption was wrong.
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Offline riotonthebay

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Re: about the separation of "vendor" GB into the separate subforum....
« Reply #2 on: Tue, 11 March 2014, 14:57:46 »
I agree with all of the above.

The primary concern seems to be thread volume, but I don't think that's much of an issue – new threads seem to be frequently reviewed and non-serious posters or those just linking directly to another site can be tossed out. I don't think the distinction should be "run from start to finish by a GH member" but instead "run for the sake of the community". Using this metric, the Macross GB clearly belongs.

Offline hashbaz

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Re: about the separation of "vendor" GB into the separate subforum....
« Reply #3 on: Tue, 11 March 2014, 15:01:36 »
A maintained, sticky'd "Active Group Buys" thread would be another possible solution.  Reaper did this for a while but it hasn't been touched in months.

Offline regack

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Re: about the separation of "vendor" GB into the separate subforum....
« Reply #4 on: Tue, 11 March 2014, 15:49:36 »
A maintained, sticky'd "Active Group Buys" thread would be another possible solution.  Reaper did this for a while but it hasn't been touched in months.

I suppose that would depend on if the rules allowed for it to be counted as a group buy, and subsequently posted into that thread... well, that and the thread would need to be updated.

On that note, I have a semi-related/tangential question...

Community members (from here on, just members) can be vendors... and vendors can be members.  I think everyone can agree this is true.  In fact, vendors get a little tag by their name so we Know Who They Are.  Now my question is... when a member/vendor posts... how do we know under which hat they are posting?   Does it even matter?  Apparently it might.

I'm not trying to be weird about it, or stir up crap, but if vendors and members are going to be held to different standards, perhaps vendors should be required to have a separate account when doing vendorish things in their vendory area.

Feel free to convince me that it should NOT be this way.

Things to consider for this discussion: What if a vendor is selling/buying in the classifieds?  What if a vendor is reviewing a product?  What if a vendor is participating in a group buy?  What if a vendor is running a group buy....



Offline ideus

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Re: about the separation of "vendor" GB into the separate subforum....
« Reply #5 on: Tue, 11 March 2014, 17:38:32 »

The point here is not about who is running a GB, either vendor, or not, but who at the end is collecting the money. In the case of SP, its sponsered GB, was relocated under SP thread when it was known that SP was to collect the money with its new GB site.


It should be considered that even with non vendor led GB the money paid will end in a vendor's pocket most of the time. Thus, if separation is required because of that, I do not see an actual reason, a subforum for GB should include a vendors area, and a non vendors one. Otherwise just allow vendor sponsored GB to be in the same forum.

Offline skuko

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Re: about the separation of "vendor" GB into the separate subforum....
« Reply #6 on: Wed, 12 March 2014, 04:54:08 »
The point here is not about who is running a GB, either vendor, or not, but who at the end is collecting the money.

why? is there a good reason why it's important? i disagree with this. as the "end user", i don't really care who collects the money, as long as the process is hassle-free and smooth, the keys get done and shipped.

i really don't think that SP is in this for a massive profit, i think of this as a more of a enthusiast community type of thing with the "potential" of going completely independent.

Offline ideus

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Re: about the separation of "vendor" GB into the separate subforum....
« Reply #7 on: Wed, 12 March 2014, 08:58:25 »
The point here is not about who is running a GB, either vendor, or not, but who at the end is collecting the money.

why? is there a good reason why it's important? i disagree with this. as the "end user", i don't really care who collects the money, as long as the process is hassle-free and smooth, the keys get done and shipped.

i really don't think that SP is in this for a massive profit, i think of this as a more of a enthusiast community type of thing with the "potential" of going completely independent.


I am in your side. What I was trying to say is that it appeared that was the only reason GH mods considered to separate SP GB from the other GBs.

Offline skuko

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Re: about the separation of "vendor" GB into the separate subforum....
« Reply #8 on: Thu, 13 March 2014, 06:12:07 »
yeah i get it. just looking for the reasoning behind it, since it seems completely unreasonable to me :X

Offline ideus

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Re: about the separation of "vendor" GB into the separate subforum....
« Reply #9 on: Thu, 13 March 2014, 10:09:13 »
Based on the read times and posted responses this thread has not gotten enough attention. Thus, it may not be of the interest of the community, which is a shame. Besides mods have not jumped in the discussion.

Offline Krogenar

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Re: about the separation of "vendor" GB into the separate subforum....
« Reply #10 on: Thu, 13 March 2014, 10:57:16 »
Based on the read times and posted responses this thread has not gotten enough attention. Thus, it may not be of the interest of the community, which is a shame. Besides mods have not jumped in the discussion.

Hash posted a response, he's a mod.

As for the separation of vendor-sponsored groupbuys -- I still don't really see the necessity for those groupbuys to be put into the vendor forums. Most of those forums seem to be dedicated to direct client-to-vendor issues: requests for repair, questions about upcoming products, etc. As long as everyone is clear on the special nature of the groupbuy, where's the harm?

What about Ctrl-Alt groupbuys? Are their groupbuys listed in the groupbuy forum, or their vendor subforum?

EDIT: Nope, they're all listed under the groupbuy forum -- which I think makes perfect sense. Why not put SP sponsored groupbuys into the same forum?
« Last Edit: Thu, 13 March 2014, 10:59:37 by Krogenar »
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Offline ideus

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Re: about the separation of "vendor" GB into the separate subforum....
« Reply #11 on: Thu, 13 March 2014, 14:03:01 »
Let's see if someone with decision authority jumps into the discussion.

Offline jdcarpe

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Re: about the separation of "vendor" GB into the separate subforum....
« Reply #12 on: Thu, 13 March 2014, 14:40:01 »
I'm a mod, and here's my opinion.

I think all community group buys should be placed in geekhack marketplace > group buys. If a commercial vendor is doing their own design, it should go under their vendor forum. But keycap group buys which were designed by community members or "non-commercial" vendors, regardless of the venue used to organize the group buy, should stay in the group buys forum.

Also, I think we need to make a bigger distinction between so-called "Commercial Vendors" whose main enterprise is the sale of keyboards and related accoutrements, but who maintain a forum presence for exposure and accessibility; and "Artisans" or "Community Vendors" whose main purpose here on Geekhack is as community members, but who also sell goods and/or services as a side operation.
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Offline ideus

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Re: about the separation of "vendor" GB into the separate subforum....
« Reply #13 on: Thu, 13 March 2014, 14:53:58 »
I'm a mod, and here's my opinion.

I think all community group buys should be placed in geekhack marketplace > group buys. If a commercial vendor is doing their own design, it should go under their vendor forum. But keycap group buys which were designed by community members or "non-commercial" vendors, regardless of the venue used to organize the group buy, should stay in the group buys forum.

Also, I think we need to make a bigger distinction between so-called "Commercial Vendors" whose main enterprise is the sale of keyboards and related accoutrements, but who maintain a forum presence for exposure and accessibility; and "Artisans" or "Community Vendors" whose main purpose here on Geekhack is as community members, but who also sell goods and/or services as a side operation.


A coherent and objetive point of view. Let's do it this way then.

Offline hashbaz

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Re: about the separation of "vendor" GB into the separate subforum....
« Reply #14 on: Thu, 13 March 2014, 15:41:03 »
I'm a mod, and here's my opinion.

I think all community group buys should be placed in geekhack marketplace > group buys. If a commercial vendor is doing their own design, it should go under their vendor forum. But keycap group buys which were designed by community members or "non-commercial" vendors, regardless of the venue used to organize the group buy, should stay in the group buys forum.

Also, I think we need to make a bigger distinction between so-called "Commercial Vendors" whose main enterprise is the sale of keyboards and related accoutrements, but who maintain a forum presence for exposure and accessibility; and "Artisans" or "Community Vendors" whose main purpose here on Geekhack is as community members, but who also sell goods and/or services as a side operation.

I'm picking up that distinctive jdcarpe undertone. :thumb:

Offline jdcarpe

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Re: about the separation of "vendor" GB into the separate subforum....
« Reply #15 on: Thu, 13 March 2014, 15:47:00 »
I'm picking up that distinctive jdcarpe undertone. :thumb:

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Offline MOZ

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Re: about the separation of "vendor" GB into the separate subforum....
« Reply #16 on: Fri, 14 March 2014, 01:18:46 »
I'm a mod, and here's my opinion.

I think all community group buys should be placed in geekhack marketplace > group buys. If a commercial vendor is doing their own design, it should go under their vendor forum. But keycap group buys which were designed by community members or "non-commercial" vendors, regardless of the venue used to organize the group buy, should stay in the group buys forum.

Also, I think we need to make a bigger distinction between so-called "Commercial Vendors" whose main enterprise is the sale of keyboards and related accoutrements, but who maintain a forum presence for exposure and accessibility; and "Artisans" or "Community Vendors" whose main purpose here on Geekhack is as community members, but who also sell goods and/or services as a side operation.

My thoughts exactly.

Offline skuko

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Re: about the separation of "vendor" GB into the separate subforum....
« Reply #17 on: Fri, 14 March 2014, 04:34:17 »
I'm a mod, and here's my opinion.

I think all community group buys should be placed in geekhack marketplace > group buys. If a commercial vendor is doing their own design, it should go under their vendor forum. But keycap group buys which were designed by community members or "non-commercial" vendors, regardless of the venue used to organize the group buy, should stay in the group buys forum.

Also, I think we need to make a bigger distinction between so-called "Commercial Vendors" whose main enterprise is the sale of keyboards and related accoutrements, but who maintain a forum presence for exposure and accessibility; and "Artisans" or "Community Vendors" whose main purpose here on Geekhack is as community members, but who also sell goods and/or services as a side operation.

exactly this, couldn't agree more. i took the liberty and included it in the op with a proper quote.
« Last Edit: Fri, 14 March 2014, 04:36:15 by skuko »

Offline Neebio

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Re: about the separation of "vendor" GB into the separate subforum....
« Reply #18 on: Tue, 25 March 2014, 17:21:51 »
I'll throw in my opinion, cause why not.

I don't give a flying fruit who makes, handles the order, moves the money, or does the shipping, for a group buy.  If it's a group buy, I want it in the group buy section.

It's bloody simple: visibility.  I don't want to miss a group buy because it's hidden away in the vendor subforum.  I don't check the vendor subforums because honestly, I've never had a reason to and they're out of the way.

I don't care if you think 'vendor' group buys should be distinguished as such with either tagging them in the title or in the thread, as long as they're with all the other group buys.  Personally I think it's pretty clear if the thread is started by somebody with 'vendor' under their username.

From my perspective, if I'm browsing the group buy section because I'm thinking of buying some awesome key caps, I don't want to miss an awesome key cap group buy because it was delegated to a vendor subforum where I didn't see it.  Plain and simple.  To not have all the group buys together in one place, it hurts the users looking for them as much as it hurts the group buys themselves, by reducing exposure.

TL;DR: Put all group buys together, regardless of who runs them.  Have tags in titles or in threads if that's your fancy. 
« Last Edit: Tue, 25 March 2014, 17:27:53 by Neebio »
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Offline Krogenar

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Re: about the separation of "vendor" GB into the separate subforum....
« Reply #19 on: Wed, 26 March 2014, 07:29:51 »
TL;DR: Put all group buys together, regardless of who runs them.  Have tags in titles or in threads if that's your fancy.

Agreed -- is this going to be the new policy for groupbuys that are vendor-sponsored, but community designed? What if someone who hasn't registered at GH were to design a keycap set under SP's new system -- would that make it a vendor groupbuy (and hence placed in the vendor forum) or would it still be considered a community groupbuy -- and thus would be listed with all the other groupbuys?

Let's just put all the groupbuys in the one forum, clearly labeled so that people who wring their hands over these distinctions can feel safe, and people who assume all the groupbuys would be listed under "groupbuys" will find them there. So what's GH policy on this?
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Offline skuko

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Re: about the separation of "vendor" GB into the separate subforum....
« Reply #20 on: Thu, 27 March 2014, 03:24:58 »
i think this should be looked at by the staff asap. with the upcoming DSA PBT monster GB, it would be a shame if it didn't get enough traction because of this.

Offline Krogenar

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Re: about the separation of "vendor" GB into the separate subforum....
« Reply #21 on: Mon, 31 March 2014, 06:35:17 »
Would it be possible to move the Granite Dyesub PBT GB thread from the SP subforum to the main GB forum? It was designed by Matteo, who's a member of the community.
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Quote from: Samuel Adams
"If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, go home from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or your arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains set lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen."

Offline StylinGreymon

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Re: about the separation of "vendor" GB into the separate subforum....
« Reply #22 on: Mon, 31 March 2014, 06:46:31 »
Would it be possible to move the Granite Dyesub PBT GB thread from the SP subforum to the main GB forum? It was designed by Matteo, who's a member of the community.
This.
To imply that it wasn't community designed and driven is a massive insult to Matt3o and everyone else here who put so much work into making this set.

Not to mention, is there even a way for new members (and even existing members) to know that there are group buys located in places other than the group buy subforum?
« Last Edit: Mon, 31 March 2014, 06:50:52 by StylinGreymon »
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Offline Krogenar

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Re: about the separation of "vendor" GB into the separate subforum....
« Reply #23 on: Mon, 31 March 2014, 06:52:44 »
Not to mention, is there even a way for new members to know that there are group buys located in places other than the group buy subforum?

Someone referenced an old thread documenting all the current (and past) GBs, but it hasn't been maintained. The Granite GB should be placed alongside the other groupbuys. Right now people are deciding which GB fits into their budgets and which don't -- if they commit to another GB and then notice granite (or others) -- they'll be pissed, and rightfully so.

Matt is following the guidelines laid out -- I don't think the GB was placed in the SP subforum by the mods, I think it was created there in order to comply with the rules. I respectfully request that the rules be changed and the GB placed (with Matt's permission) into the GB forum where it will receive the exposure it deserves.
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Offline StylinGreymon

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Re: about the separation of "vendor" GB into the separate subforum....
« Reply #24 on: Mon, 31 March 2014, 07:05:18 »
I am not a clever man, and I admit it freely.
So can somebody explain to me why community and vendor group buys needed to be separated in the first place, with absolutely no connection with each other?
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Offline SpAmRaY

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Re: about the separation of "vendor" GB into the separate subforum....
« Reply #25 on: Mon, 31 March 2014, 07:07:41 »
I'm a mod, and here's my opinion.

I think all community group buys should be placed in geekhack marketplace > group buys. If a commercial vendor is doing their own design, it should go under their vendor forum. But keycap group buys which were designed by community members or "non-commercial" vendors, regardless of the venue used to organize the group buy, should stay in the group buys forum.

Also, I think we need to make a bigger distinction between so-called "Commercial Vendors" whose main enterprise is the sale of keyboards and related accoutrements, but who maintain a forum presence for exposure and accessibility; and "Artisans" or "Community Vendors" whose main purpose here on Geekhack is as community members, but who also sell goods and/or services as a side operation.

+1

I concur with jd's statement.

Offline Matt3o

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Re: about the separation of "vendor" GB into the separate subforum....
« Reply #26 on: Mon, 31 March 2014, 07:28:43 »
This time Signature Plastics is selling directly, taking huge advantage of the community without giving anything back (at least financially speaking).

Also SP is seen as taking very little risk on its own. The whole risk is on the community, if the GB doesn't sell enough it will simply dropped. In this scenario SP is taking huge advantage of a very passionate community.

That being said, SP actually demonstrated that is willing to take the risk, the Skull Squadron GB is a clear example of SP willingness of doing the right thing. They listened to the community requests, they lowered the price and they will also produce some extra sets with my prior permission.

Also, from now on it will be possible for anybody to organize even "micro" GBs not only for full sets but also few keycaps, which, in my opinion is a great service for us all.

This on the other hand might pose a serious thread for all the great small vendors who did a really great job for the community with very little (if none) turn back.

This is not an easy issue to solve. SP could make a "donation" to GH for every GB they push on the forum, but that wouldn't solve the "small vendor" issue.

Lastly.

Designing a full sublimated PBT set is a HUGE work! It's not like for doubleshot that you are going to use SP's font and the mock-up can be done with Paint.net.

Every legend has to be designed exactly the way it will be printed (font size, spacing, thickness, positioning). It took me a hell lot of time (weeks!) and the work is not finished yet! Granite set is by no means an SP creation. It's 100% community's blood and sweat. Every legend has been designed by me with your help, and this time SP is really just the manufacturer.

In fact, this time (contrary to Skull Squadron) if SP will ask me to produce extra sets I won't give them permission unless they pay for the design phase.

Offline Neebio

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Re: about the separation of "vendor" GB into the separate subforum....
« Reply #27 on: Mon, 31 March 2014, 12:30:38 »
I looked over your set this morning, and I must say, Matt3o, it looks fantastic.  Unfortunately for me, my disposable income allotted to keycaps is diminished... Even if I am not able to pick up a set, thanks for your work in getting the set designed and off the ground.

Matt3o has certainly provided some insight here into why it is probably a good idea to distinguish between vendor run and individual/non-profit run group buys. Still, I believe all group buys, regardless of who is running them, should fall in the group buys section of the forum.  From an information organization standpoint, it only makes sense.  With that said, perhaps it would be best to create a vendor sub-forum within group buys.  This would firmly distinguish vendor group buys from others, without harming the exposure and visibility that the group buys get.
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Offline CPTBadAss

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Re: about the separation of "vendor" GB into the separate subforum....
« Reply #28 on: Mon, 31 March 2014, 12:33:16 »
A maintained, sticky'd "Active Group Buys" thread would be another possible solution.  Reaper did this for a while but it hasn't been touched in months.

My team and I could organize that thread again.

Offline ideus

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Re: about the separation of "vendor" GB into the separate subforum....
« Reply #29 on: Mon, 31 March 2014, 12:39:24 »
This time Signature Plastics is selling directly, taking huge advantage of the community without giving anything back (at least financially speaking).

Also SP is seen as taking very little risk on its own. The whole risk is on the community, if the GB doesn't sell enough it will simply dropped. In this scenario SP is taking huge advantage of a very passionate community.

That being said, SP actually demonstrated that is willing to take the risk, the Skull Squadron GB is a clear example of SP willingness of doing the right thing. They listened to the community requests, they lowered the price and they will also produce some extra sets with my prior permission.

Also, from now on it will be possible for anybody to organize even "micro" GBs not only for full sets but also few keycaps, which, in my opinion is a great service for us all.

This on the other hand might pose a serious thread for all the great small vendors who did a really great job for the community with very little (if none) turn back.

This is not an easy issue to solve. SP could make a "donation" to GH for every GB they push on the forum, but that wouldn't solve the "small vendor" issue.

Lastly.

Designing a full sublimated PBT set is a HUGE work! It's not like for doubleshot that you are going to use SP's font and the mock-up can be done with Paint.net.

Every legend has to be designed exactly the way it will be printed (font size, spacing, thickness, positioning). It took me a hell lot of time (weeks!) and the work is not finished yet! Granite set is by no means an SP creation. It's 100% community's blood and sweat. Every legend has been designed by me with your help, and this time SP is really just the manufacturer.

In fact, this time (contrary to Skull Squadron) if SP will ask me to produce extra sets I won't give them permission unless they pay for the design phase.


Totally agree on asking design royalties in your behalf if SP wants to produce extra sets.

Offline Matt3o

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Re: about the separation of "vendor" GB into the separate subforum....
« Reply #30 on: Mon, 31 March 2014, 12:40:48 »
A maintained, sticky'd "Active Group Buys" thread would be another possible solution.  Reaper did this for a while but it hasn't been touched in months.

My team and I could organize that thread again.

hold on I'm organizing something even better :) and I would need help maintaining it

Offline Krogenar

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Re: about the separation of "vendor" GB into the separate subforum....
« Reply #31 on: Mon, 31 March 2014, 13:46:08 »
I still don't see why we're putting vendor-run but community designed groupbuys in a kind of subforum ghetto. If it were designed by SP and produced by SP, then sure, that makes sense -- it's not a community affair any more at all on any level and would qualify more as a product announcement.

Let's just do what makes logical sense -- put groupbuys in the groupbuy forum, and put warning labels in the thread titles and the first post so that people know that the groupbuy is being run by a vendor. Put a Scarlet V in the thread title, lol. This way people who worry about this development can avoid these groupbuys for the sake of social justice, Market Leninism, or whatever other reason they might have.

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Offline Matt3o

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Re: about the separation of "vendor" GB into the separate subforum....
« Reply #32 on: Mon, 31 March 2014, 13:51:09 »
I agree all GBs should go under the main GB section unless directly designed by SP. After all even if I managed the GB directly the money would have gone to SP anyway...

btw, I stand admins' decision.

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Re: about the separation of "vendor" GB into the separate subforum....
« Reply #33 on: Mon, 31 March 2014, 13:52:31 »
A maintained, sticky'd "Active Group Buys" thread would be another possible solution.  Reaper did this for a while but it hasn't been touched in months.

My team and I could organize that thread again.

hold on I'm organizing something even better :) and I would need help maintaining it

Sounds good :D. Looking forward to it!

Offline taylordcraig

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Re: about the separation of "vendor" GB into the separate subforum....
« Reply #34 on: Thu, 17 April 2014, 16:11:10 »
I'm a mod, and here's my opinion.

I think all community group buys should be placed in geekhack marketplace > group buys. If a commercial vendor is doing their own design, it should go under their vendor forum. But keycap group buys which were designed by community members or "non-commercial" vendors, regardless of the venue used to organize the group buy, should stay in the group buys forum.

Also, I think we need to make a bigger distinction between so-called "Commercial Vendors" whose main enterprise is the sale of keyboards and related accoutrements, but who maintain a forum presence for exposure and accessibility; and "Artisans" or "Community Vendors" whose main purpose here on Geekhack is as community members, but who also sell goods and/or services as a side operation.

I'm with JD.

Offline mkawa

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Re: about the separation of "vendor" GB into the separate subforum....
« Reply #35 on: Thu, 17 April 2014, 18:59:21 »
a couple things:

jd is now exclusively on the keeper side of the fence. his was previously allowed to act as both a moderator and a keeper due to short staffing and a large number of fires.

regarding SP's new sales system, any situation in which a vendor such as SP receives payment from individuals, manufactures product, and then delivers said product to individuals is not a group buy but a vendor selling wares. a group buy is an independently organized (mess, unfortunately but most often) in which a cohort bands behind a small finite number of buying parties, who exclusively interact with a vendor/manufacturer and then do fulfillment themselves.  it doesn't matter at all who does the design. in fact, in SP's situation, it seems to me that they are having the community design their products and then collecting all payment and margin on that product and giving the designer only a single set of keycaps. this seems eyebrow raising to me if i were either a designer or customer. that said, there have been many many traditional group buys whose terminal manufacturers were SP and went extremely badly, so mod team invites either option, but the rules on where these threads should go are pretty much set. if there are other situations in which the lines are unclear, we invite examination of _those_ situations, and not the rules as they regard to SP.

to recap, direct vendor sales go in their own subforums, period, and within SP's new direct sales system, they are very clearly accepting and fulfilling direct vendor sales. as i said above, this is probably, on the whole, not a bad thing; it may be one that needs some tweaking for the community's sake and keyset designers, but my personal opinion is that it's a step in the right direction

about the vendor forums being a ghetto, that is only the case if the vendor does not put forth the effort required to do the marketing, outreach and generally participate on the forum. some great examples of subforums that are NOT ghettos are edgar matias' subforum, CM storm's, and mechanicalkeyboard.com's forums. corsair opted against having a vendor forum because they preferred to use the hours they had available to interact with the community organically, and i think they have done an excellent job at that. again, vendors who can formulate clear goals within our rubrick do well and have plenty of interaction between their representatives and the community. those that do not don't, regardless of whether they have a vendor forum or not.

to all the brilliant friends who have left us, and all the students who climb on their shoulders.

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Re: about the separation of "vendor" GB into the separate subforum....
« Reply #36 on: Fri, 18 April 2014, 01:35:07 »
this all discussion is pointless. Granite set did so well that hugely proved that the location where the the GB is placed is totally irrelevant.

it doesn't matter at all who does the design. in fact, in SP's situation, it seems to me that they are having the community design their products and then collecting all payment and margin on that product and giving the designer only a single set of keycaps. this seems eyebrow raising to me if i were either a designer or customer.

While an ABS set can be designed in a couple of hours, a PBT set requires really a lot of time. So while I see no harm in running double-shot sets or single keycaps (like the Vim key), the work I've done for the Granite set has been huge and I will hardly do the same again. That being said, SP acknowledged my help and I got far more than a "set of keycaps", so it has not been entirely eyebrow raising for me. Not enough to run another sublimated set, but still credit goes where credit is due.

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Re: about the separation of "vendor" GB into the separate subforum....
« Reply #37 on: Fri, 18 April 2014, 02:36:54 »
this all discussion is pointless. Granite set did so well that hugely proved that the location where the the GB is placed is totally irrelevant.

it doesn't matter at all who does the design. in fact, in SP's situation, it seems to me that they are having the community design their products and then collecting all payment and margin on that product and giving the designer only a single set of keycaps. this seems eyebrow raising to me if i were either a designer or customer.

While an ABS set can be designed in a couple of hours, a PBT set requires really a lot of time. So while I see no harm in running double-shot sets or single keycaps (like the Vim key), the work I've done for the Granite set has been huge and I will hardly do the same again. That being said, SP acknowledged my help and I got far more than a "set of keycaps", so it has not been entirely eyebrow raising for me. Not enough to run another sublimated set, but still credit goes where credit is due.


I am very glad to know that you feel satisfy with the outcomes of the GB. You really did a great job with the set, so more than deserved to be credited, so if that was the case great for you my friend.

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Re: about the separation of "vendor" GB into the separate subforum....
« Reply #38 on: Fri, 18 April 2014, 09:50:10 »
this all discussion is pointless. Granite set did so well that hugely proved that the location where the the GB is placed is totally irrelevant.

it doesn't matter at all who does the design. in fact, in SP's situation, it seems to me that they are having the community design their products and then collecting all payment and margin on that product and giving the designer only a single set of keycaps. this seems eyebrow raising to me if i were either a designer or customer.

While an ABS set can be designed in a couple of hours, a PBT set requires really a lot of time. So while I see no harm in running double-shot sets or single keycaps (like the Vim key), the work I've done for the Granite set has been huge and I will hardly do the same again. That being said, SP acknowledged my help and I got far more than a "set of keycaps", so it has not been entirely eyebrow raising for me. Not enough to run another sublimated set, but still credit goes where credit is due.
good to know, and for other potential set designers to know. i expect that SP and the community can work out the economics and publicity issues so that other sets go just as well if not better. like i said, regardless of where the threads go, i think this is a step forward from the old days. remember when tjcaustin had to finance 20k of the first klaxon set by himself because of short payments? i don't particularly want that to ever happen again, but i do want the community to have access to custom caps, so in all i think this is a brave new world that will ultimately be a huge positive for the community.

to all the brilliant friends who have left us, and all the students who climb on their shoulders.

Offline Krogenar

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Re: about the separation of "vendor" GB into the separate subforum....
« Reply #39 on: Fri, 18 April 2014, 15:12:17 »
regarding SP's new sales system, any situation in which a vendor such as SP receives payment from individuals, manufactures product, and then delivers said product to individuals is not a group buy but a vendor selling wares.

I could buy that argument if we were talking about a product that was designed by the manufacturer, and the agreement is only that they will provide a quantity discount if enough orders are aggregated. By this reasoning, mkawa, you're saying that the Macross and Granite ... "events?" were not actually groupbuys, they were merely sales of wares by SP. This is surprising to me because they sure as hell looked like groupbuys to me. It feels like you're saying, "Yes, it quacks like a duck, looks like a duck, but since it flew in from the north (and we know all ducks fly in exclusively from the south) it is therefore not a duck."

Quote from: mkawa
a group buy is an independently organized (mess, unfortunately but most often) in which a cohort bands behind a small finite number of buying parties, who exclusively interact with a vendor/manufacturer and then do fulfillment themselves. it doesn't matter at all who does the design.

So if I follow your logic correctly, if SP executives were to sit down and design a keycap set, and then give it to Matteo or some other GH community member and say, "Here's the design, get the orders, collect the money and we'll ship them to you in bulk, and you can sort and ship them." then that would in fact be a 'groupbuy' and listed in the Groupbuy forum? Since, as you say, it doesn't matter who does the design, so this situation would qualify as a groupbuy? I think the designer's role is crucial to what defines a community groupbuy.

Quote from: mkawa
it seems to me that they are having the community design their products and then collecting all payment and margin on that product and giving the designer only a single set of keycaps. this seems eyebrow raising to me if i were either a designer or customer.

Wait, now who designs it matters again? What's eyebrow raising about the designer receiving nothing more than a complimentary set, free of charge? Isn't that the traditional standard for groupbuys anyway? To hear others tell it, groupbuy organizers should reap no profit besides their own keycap set, and in fact are better organizers (or more saintly, at least) when they lose money, or sanity (sorting, packing, invoicing, etc.) -- but if SP handles the logistics for a groupbuy that arrangement of no profit becomes 'eyebrow raising'? Again, no, that's not the issue -- the issue is that someone (SP) has a margin at all, and aren't willing to sanctify their efforts by taking a financial beating. Yes, the crux of this separation is profit. Someone is making a profit -- and thus the groupbuy will be put out of sight, kept apart from the other groupbuys.

But SP (and other vendors) always makes a profit, even with traditional groupbuys -- so what's the point of setting these groupbuys apart?

Quote from: mkawa
about the vendor forums being a ghetto, that is only the case if the vendor does not put forth the effort required to do the marketing, outreach and generally participate on the forum. some great examples of subforums that are NOT ghettos are edgar matias' subforum, CM storm's, and mechanicalkeyboard.com's forums. corsair opted against having a vendor forum because they preferred to use the hours they had available to interact with the community organically, and i think they have done an excellent job at that. again, vendors who can formulate clear goals within our rubrick do well and have plenty of interaction between their representatives and the community. those that do not don't, regardless of whether they have a vendor forum or not.

There have been reports of people who missed out on these two groupbuys because they made the (absolutely reasonable) assumption that all groupbuys would be found under the groupbuys forum. The main rule here at GH is to keep discussions in their proper threads, and it makes sense. So let's say someone else from GH uses SP's system; they cannot create their thread in the groupbuys forum, so they have to place it in the SP vendor forum. Could the organizer go into the groupbuys forum, create a topic that says, "Hey, check out my groupbuy!" and link to the vendor forum? Would that be acceptable? My guess is that it would not be allowed. This seems silly ("Hey! Bread aisle shoppers, there's a new brand of bread over in the seafood aisle, come check it out!") and more importantly, it requires groupbuy organizers to work harder than other organizers. For Granite, people put the link in their signatures so that the groupbuy wouldn't be overlooked. Why do that? Why punish these groupbuys? For some legalistic reason? Also, by listing all groupbuys together our community can make better decisions -- they can more easily compare all the groupbuys going on, and decide where best to spend their finite money. How aggravating to buy into a groupbuy and then discover there is a groupbuy that you would have preferred, but it was not listed alongside all the others.

I know the policy is now set and I accept it. It's bad policy; policy that makes us (as a community) seem petty and even a little stupid. With respect, I urge you to reconsider this policy. Groupbuys shouldn't be exercises in self-sacrifice for organizers, they should be about (as you said once, mkawa, very, very rightly!) making some cool ****. If a manufacturer happens to make a profit in the process that's okay with me. Groupbuys should go in the groupbuy thread.
« Last Edit: Fri, 18 April 2014, 15:19:22 by Krogenar »
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Offline SpAmRaY

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Re: about the separation of "vendor" GB into the separate subforum....
« Reply #40 on: Fri, 18 April 2014, 21:16:43 »
a couple things:

jd is now exclusively on the keeper side of the fence. his was previously allowed to act as both a moderator and a keeper due to short staffing and a large number of fires.

regarding SP's new sales system, any situation in which a vendor such as SP receives payment from individuals, manufactures product, and then delivers said product to individuals is not a group buy but a vendor selling wares. a group buy is an independently organized (mess, unfortunately but most often) in which a cohort bands behind a small finite number of buying parties, who exclusively interact with a vendor/manufacturer and then do fulfillment themselves.  it doesn't matter at all who does the design. in fact, in SP's situation, it seems to me that they are having the community design their products and then collecting all payment and margin on that product and giving the designer only a single set of keycaps. this seems eyebrow raising to me if i were either a designer or customer. that said, there have been many many traditional group buys whose terminal manufacturers were SP and went extremely badly, so mod team invites either option, but the rules on where these threads should go are pretty much set. if there are other situations in which the lines are unclear, we invite examination of _those_ situations, and not the rules as they regard to SP.

to recap, direct vendor sales go in their own subforums, period, and within SP's new direct sales system, they are very clearly accepting and fulfilling direct vendor sales. as i said above, this is probably, on the whole, not a bad thing; it may be one that needs some tweaking for the community's sake and keyset designers, but my personal opinion is that it's a step in the right direction

about the vendor forums being a ghetto, that is only the case if the vendor does not put forth the effort required to do the marketing, outreach and generally participate on the forum. some great examples of subforums that are NOT ghettos are edgar matias' subforum, CM storm's, and mechanicalkeyboard.com's forums. corsair opted against having a vendor forum because they preferred to use the hours they had available to interact with the community organically, and i think they have done an excellent job at that. again, vendors who can formulate clear goals within our rubrick do well and have plenty of interaction between their representatives and the community. those that do not don't, regardless of whether they have a vendor forum or not.

so how does this group buy fit into 'group buys' and not imsto's own commercial subforum?

http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=57244.0

Offline mkawa

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Re: about the separation of "vendor" GB into the separate subforum....
« Reply #41 on: Fri, 18 April 2014, 23:53:01 »
moved.

feng will also have to start putting his threads in his forum unless they represent actual group buys as well (as he does actually run group buys and also vend, so he's kind of a grey area).

to be clear, it does not matter who designs a keyset. if it is vended by a vendor, and is not an independently organized group buy in which a cohort proxy buy through a small group that negotiates with a manufacturer or vendor for bulk pricing, it is allowed in the group buy forum. vendor sales are no longer allowed in the group buy forum unless the vendor can show unequivocally that he or she is acting as a proxy buyer in the above style.

to all the brilliant friends who have left us, and all the students who climb on their shoulders.

Offline nubbinator

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Re: about the separation of "vendor" GB into the separate subforum....
« Reply #42 on: Sat, 19 April 2014, 00:08:39 »
So for my Typewriter GB, I'll have to either either run it myself or work with BunnyLake (though shouldn't his GB's technically be in the CtrlAlt sub based on these rules) or have it relegated to the SP sub and never be seen?

I'm with the others in t having a hard time with the rules since I really see no difference between a vendor GB and a proxy buyer GB outside of levels of abstraction.

Offline Krogenar

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Re: about the separation of "vendor" GB into the separate subforum....
« Reply #43 on: Sat, 19 April 2014, 07:20:53 »
So for my Typewriter GB, I'll have to either either run it myself or work with BunnyLake (though shouldn't his GB's technically be in the CtrlAlt sub based on these rules) or have it relegated to the SP sub and never be seen?

ghetto
put in or restrict to an isolated or segregated area or group.

Why? What's the relevance of whether a groupbuy's logistics are handled by a 'cohort of community members' or handled by the manufacturer? Why does that matter? Why does it matter so much that those groupbuys should be segregated from the other groupbuys? That reasoning has never been sufficiently explained. It feels as arbitrary as placing blue-eyed people in one room, and brown-eyed people in another, more distant, smaller and less accessible room.

This was the most disheartening:

Quote from: mkawa
about the vendor forums being a ghetto, that is only the case if the vendor does not put forth the effort required to do the marketing, outreach and generally participate on the forum.

So you acknowledge that the groupbuys are being forcibly put at a disadvantage, and that it's up to them to drag themselves out of it? Why is this really even necessary? Common sense dictates that you place like things together -- groupbuys should be listed with other groupbuys. The specifics of who does what should be listed on the OP, so everything is transparent. Then, the people who apparently do care about these arrangements can do as they choose. Right now, groupbuys that pass this bizarre rule are placed in a logical place where ordinary people are likely to see them, and these other groupbuys are being placed under a rock, in a dark place, where it's their prerogative to lift the stone that's been placed on them by the forum management, and then compete with other groupbuys.

To me, it's icing on the cake that the last such groupbuy was a huge success, despite the limitations placed on it by this ridiculous, pointless policy.
« Last Edit: Sat, 19 April 2014, 07:31:01 by Krogenar »
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Offline mkawa

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Re: about the separation of "vendor" GB into the separate subforum....
« Reply #44 on: Sat, 19 April 2014, 22:20:02 »
they're not group buys. simma down KJ

to all the brilliant friends who have left us, and all the students who climb on their shoulders.

Offline nubbinator

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Re: about the separation of "vendor" GB into the separate subforum....
« Reply #45 on: Sat, 19 April 2014, 22:31:38 »
they're not group buys. simma down KJ

So would my typewriter inspired sets be considered GBs even if I ran them through PMK?  With all my other projects I'm messing around with, I'm not sure I'd have time to research setting up a DBA and the tax elements of it to properly run the GB on my own.  If I can't run it through PMK and have it in the GB section, it will be in limbo for a while.

That said, I completely agree with your assessment when you stated:

in SP's situation, it seems to me that they are having the community design their products and then collecting all payment and margin on that product and giving the designer only a single set of keycaps. this seems eyebrow raising to me if i were either a designer or customer.

It pisses me off that they're not even willing to do so much as provide the community with a couple of free to use ABS and PBT color rings and are not reimbursing GB organizers for their investment in the color rings,  They're providing nothing to the organizer, who is expected to do all the work outside of manufacturing and shipping, outside of a single cap set, regardless of how many units are sold.  They're not even giving anything to GH as a community, just using us as a source for sales.  That to me is wrong; however, I think it does penalize those who can't otherwise run a GB, but have some great ideas.

Offline Krogenar

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Re: about the separation of "vendor" GB into the separate subforum....
« Reply #46 on: Sat, 19 April 2014, 23:23:27 »
That said, I completely agree with your assessment when you stated:

in SP's situation, it seems to me that they are having the community design their products and then collecting all payment and margin on that product and giving the designer only a single set of keycaps. this seems eyebrow raising to me if i were either a designer or customer.

It pisses me off that they're not even willing to do so much as provide the community with a couple of free to use ABS and PBT color rings and are not reimbursing GB organizers for their investment in the color rings,  They're providing nothing to the organizer, who is expected to do all the work outside of manufacturing and shipping, outside of a single cap set, regardless of how many units are sold.  They're not even giving anything to GH as a community, just using us as a source for sales.  That to me is wrong; however, I think it does penalize those who can't otherwise run a GB, but have some great ideas.

SP isn't 'giving anything' to the community? How about handling the most tedious aspects of a groupbuy? They're handling money collection, the groupbuy software to give realtime tier updates, the manufacturing, the sorting, the packing and shipping -- which leaves what, exactly, for the groupbuy organizer? Only the really fulfilling aspect of the process: the design work. This idea that a vendor is not giving the community anything when it makes us a product at an agreed upon price is just silly. They get something (the profit necessary to stay in business) and we get a product we want. There's an honesty in that arrangement -- it's not exploitation.

And this arrangement has been going on for a while! They've made a lot of previous groupbuys possible. Was SP guilty of 'using us as a source of sales' in those previous groupbuys? The only difference was that they did not handle as much of the logistics, and they still made a profit. So were those previous groupbuys exploitative? If so, why no complaints about them back then? We didn't complain because we (as a community) were getting what we wanted from SP. How is any of that changed under the PMK system?
« Last Edit: Sat, 19 April 2014, 23:31:49 by Krogenar »
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Offline nubbinator

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Re: about the separation of "vendor" GB into the separate subforum....
« Reply #47 on: Sat, 19 April 2014, 23:30:45 »
Handling shipping isn't giving anything to the community.  Money collection is only a problem with people for tax reasons.  It's no sweat off their back to collect it directly and it reduces costs for end users since it removes one abstraction layer and the PP fees there.

The GB organizer is responsible for all the design work, which can be substantial and expensive, just ask Matt3o, and is responsible for all of the marketing, which is integral to a successful buy.  Yes, shipping is a pain, but they're the ones who decided that they wanted to be the direct distributor, similar to Massdrop's model and the imsto, feng/FMJ, Pexon, and other GBs that have been done in the past.  That doesn't change the fact that they're not giving back to the community.

That said, that's off topic.

Offline Krogenar

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Re: about the separation of "vendor" GB into the separate subforum....
« Reply #48 on: Sat, 19 April 2014, 23:53:31 »
Handling shipping isn't giving anything to the community.  Money collection is only a problem with people for tax reasons.  It's no sweat off their back to collect it directly and it reduces costs for end users since it removes one abstraction layer and the PP fees there.

Handling shipping does give something to community. Anything that makes a GB organizer's life a little less crazy is a good thing. As you say, designing a keycap set already represents a great deal of work -- removing logistical hurdles makes life easier for the organizers, who are a part of the community. And yes, since SP (or any other vendor) is incorporated, they don't set off red flags with PayPal. That's 'no sweat' off the manufacturer's back, true -- but it does represent work taken off the back of the organizer.

Quote from: nubbinator
Yes, shipping is a pain, but they're the ones who decided that they wanted to be the direct distributor, similar to Massdrop's model and the imsto, feng/FMJ, Pexon, and other GBs that have been done in the past.  That doesn't change the fact that they're not giving back to the community.

That said, that's off topic.

I think this is very relevant to the topic at hand because it reveals the real reason behind the policy. What more does a manufacturer have to 'give back to the community' aside from what we asked them to manufacture at a given price? I think the GH moderating team is making these kinds of groupbuys remain in the vendor ghetto because we would prefer the old way of running groupbuys, despite the fact that they cost more, take more time, and are more taxing on the organizers finances, psychological welfare and time because of some sort of anti-corporation bias.

In hippie voice: "These corporations, man, they're suckin' us dry!"  :))

I present this animated gif as a silent protest of the vendor subforum ghettoization policy.

« Last Edit: Sat, 19 April 2014, 23:59:21 by Krogenar »
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Offline mkawa

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Re: about the separation of "vendor" GB into the separate subforum....
« Reply #49 on: Sat, 19 April 2014, 23:58:45 »
we're incredibly off-topic here. mod team will use their discretion to direct threads to the appropriate places. the complaint in this thread seems to have turned into the incredibly specific case of SP, which is inarguable under the mod team rubrick. there are a large number of cases that are gray areas, including BL (who i would consider to be running group buys, as ctrlalt is really a loose band of artisans and gb runners, not a large or well organized vendor), feng, and others.

again, SP is not a gray area, and asking vendors to put effort into making money from the community is a perfectly reasonable thing to do. this branch of the discussion is over as far as i'm concerned. you can continue discussing it in off-topic if you'd like, but your feedback has been heard and mod team is not particularly convinced.

i think there is still a lot of meat in the subtle cases in the gray area, usually run by what we would call artisans or maybe community cabals. and of course there's feng on his bicycle, ferrying keycaps. these absolutely deserve more discussion, and there are definitely arguments both ways within mod team.

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