[IC] Alps Revival - Keycaps, PCBs and much more

[MOZ]

Alright, let me start of by saying that I love Alps switches and I needed me some keycaps and PCBs to build the keyboards and use the keycaps on, and thus began the journey.

Keycaps:
I've discussed with SP, and we can do an Alps keycap GB, profile would be DCS, legends will be double shot and we will have all the legends otherwise available for MX DCS.

Regarding the stabs, in Calavera's earlier attempt it was discovered that there were many variations and it wasn't possible to cover them all, taking this into consideration, I've decided we should do Alps mount for switch and MX-compatible mount for stabs. This means that we can use Cherry stabs or costar stabs.

I am yet to get word on the available spacebars, besides that any keycap that is available for MX DCS will be available to us.

Now we need to decide on what colorway we want to go with, and from their I can start making mockups. Also Cherry legends or WYSE?

The actually GB for the keycaps will be done on the SP system.


PCBs:
To use the keycaps, one needs keyboards, there are a few PCBs out in the wild, such as the Leeku 1800 and the Duck Mini V2. I am working on converting the GH60/GHPad/Ergodox/TKL to support MX and Alps to allow for all sorts of combinations.

I will not, and I repeat I will not do a GB for any of my PCBs, they will be opensource and anybody can do a run.


Switches:
New Matias switches can be bought from MechanicalKeyboards.com as well as 7bit over on Deskthority.


Plates:
I have no idea where to source plates from, so if someone wants to help out, that would be great.


Cases:
The attempt will be to be able to use existing cases and design the PCB so that it can be used witch plates similar to those already in existence and thus compatible with existing cases. This is true for 60% as well as TKL.

[Pacifist]

fck yes alps

[MOZ]

I am almost done with the GHPad conversion. Will make a parallel thread in "making stuff" subforum on progress on conversion of various PCBs.

Lets start discussion on possible colorway for the keycaps. I'm thinking the blue-green color SP did the TKL set with:
with Cherry legends.

[Pacifist]

Can TaiHao do ALPS?

[MOZ]

According to their website, yes. However I don't know what options they have with the stabs, and it is OEM profile, which isn't that great.

[HoffmanMyster]

I am almost done with the GHPad conversion. Will make a parallel thread in "making stuff" subforum on progress on conversion of various PCBs.

Lets start discussion on possible colorway for the keycaps. I'm thinking the blue-green color SP did the TKL set with:

Show Image

with Cherry legends.

I would buy this set.  I'm not obsessed with Alps, but it would be fun to get a set other than white or black, so I'd definitely be in.

[nubbinator]

I'll be in for a cap set no matter what. Two if we do more than one color way.  I'd love to see DSA Alps caps, if possible, but DCS is good too.  A functioning Alps sets of any kind would be awesome.  It might be nice to also see about a modifier run as well so people who have found cheap Alps sets can just get the caps to make their sets funtional.  I know I've got some Dolchish ones I'd love mods for.  Since Alps boards tend to be cheap and somewhat plentiful, that might be a nice intro for people.  Just buy an AT101W for $20-30, use those switches and Alpha caps, get a PCB and modifier set and you're good to go.

A 60% Alps PCB would be amazing.  I'd grab at least two, especially if they had through hole diode and LED support so that we didn't have to do SMD soldering.  Total lack of SMD work would require a Teensy, but would probably lower the production cost enough to get more people on board.

[exitfire401]

I'll be in for a cap set no matter what. Two if we do more than one color way.  I'd love to see DSA Alps caps, if possible, but DCS is good too.  A functioning Alps sets of any kind would be awesome.  It might be nice to also see about a modifier run as well so people who have found cheap Alps sets can just get the caps to make their sets funtional.  I know I've got some Dolchish ones I'd love mods for.  Since Alps boards tend to be cheap and somewhat plentiful, that might be a nice intro for people.  Just buy an AT101W for $20-30, use those switches and Alpha caps, get a PCB and modifier set and you're good to go.

A 60% Alps PCB would be amazing.  I'd grab at least two, especially if they had through hole diode and LED support so that we didn't have to do SMD soldering.  Total lack of SMD work would require a Teensy, but would probably lower the production cost enough to get more people on board.

This is about where I stand on caps. I'll gladly buy a set for eaqch colorway done. As for PCB, I'd also love a 60% alps board as long as we can do a plate and make it fit in a poker case =D

[Pacifist]

What's sprit's status for the Alps?

[Beca]

I'm definitely interested. I would like to see how sprit's gb works out too

[nubbinator]

What's sprit's status for the Alps?

Same as the current GB.  Someday it will be done, but there's no timeline for anything.

[MOZ]

SP can do DSA as well, so that is a possibility for the future, they can also produce keycaps in PBT but those will be blank no dyesub and they don't plan having the facility in the near future.

I too was thinking about also having a modifier pack for the Dolch-like caps, I too am getting a set and that seems to be one of the more popular one due to a the eBay sales. However those are closer to OEM profile, so there is a profile mismatch and the reason why I didn't give it much thought.

Having through hole diode, through hole resistor and LED is very hard with the controller stuff on board, maybe possible with a Teensy. How about LED + SMD diode and pick n placed controller parts.

[nubbinator]

I'm just thinking cost and ease of access.  I know the cheaper it is and easier we make it to assemble, the higher the potential that more people get on board with it and the more viable it is to do small scale runs.  I'm being selfish in wanting LEDs since I have Greens, switches made for LEDs, but if a lot of people scrounge their Alps or just do Mathias Alps, LEDs would be less of an issue and would require more thought in design since you'd want SMD LEDs and SMD LED resistors.

Through hole diode and Teensy makes it so that fewer people have to rely on someone else to do the soldering for them. Anything that makes it easier will make buys more likely and more enticing to more people.

[riotonthebay]

I'd definitely be interested in this group buy.

One thing that comes to mind is that many Alps boards (e.g. SGI Granite, Dell AT101) have an offset CapsLock where the stem is lined up with the Tab stem above it. So it's offset, but not as offset as a Cherry offset CapsLock. Do you know if SP has this mold?

[MOZ]

I'd definitely be interested in this group buy.

One thing that comes to mind is that many Alps boards (e.g. SGI Granite, Dell AT101) have an offset CapsLock where the stem is lined up with the Tab stem above it. So it's offset, but not as offset as a Cherry offset CapsLock. Do you know if SP has this mold?

Yes they do

[riotonthebay]

I'd definitely be interested in this group buy.

One thing that comes to mind is that many Alps boards (e.g. SGI Granite, Dell AT101) have an offset CapsLock where the stem is lined up with the Tab stem above it. So it's offset, but not as offset as a Cherry offset CapsLock. Do you know if SP has this mold?

Yes they do

I'm on board.

[mashby]

I'm in.

[nuclearsandwich]

Can the Duck mini's Alps plate actually support Cherry Stabilizers?

If we go this route we may have to start completely from scratch. I don't have any spare stabilizers at the moment but I do have an Alps plate for a Duck mini. I'll get some Costar stabilizers from WASD and a test those. I should be able to test cherry stabilizers on it in the next week or so.

[riotonthebay]

Can the Duck mini's Alps plate actually support Cherry Stabilizers?

If we go this route we may have to start completely from scratch. I don't have any spare stabilizers at the moment but I do have an Alps plate for a Duck mini. I'll get some Costar stabilizers from WASD and a test those. I should be able to test cherry stabilizers on it in the next week or so.

No, it can't. On that note, I don't actually agree with the decision to use Cherry stabilizers. We'd need a separate group buy for plates which seems like a huge PITA. I'd love to be able to use these caps with existing Alps plates.

[elton5354]

Can the Duck mini's Alps plate actually support Cherry Stabilizers?

If we go this route we may have to start completely from scratch. I don't have any spare stabilizers at the moment but I do have an Alps plate for a Duck mini. I'll get some Costar stabilizers from WASD and a test those. I should be able to test cherry stabilizers on it in the next week or so.

I don't believe so.  They have the same stabilizer mounts as Dell AT101W

[riotonthebay]

Can the Duck mini's Alps plate actually support Cherry Stabilizers?

If we go this route we may have to start completely from scratch. I don't have any spare stabilizers at the moment but I do have an Alps plate for a Duck mini. I'll get some Costar stabilizers from WASD and a test those. I should be able to test cherry stabilizers on it in the next week or so.

I don't believe so.  They have the same stabilizer mounts as Dell AT101W

Yes, this is true. Also the same as the AEK II and a number of other common Alps boards.

[MOZ]

Let me clear this, what I meant by Cherry-compatible stabs, was the mount on the keycap (The +), so you can use costar, you won't be able to to use the rectangular Alps style though.

If I understand correctly, many of the later Alps boards too used costar stabs.

[Puddsy]

in

[geniekid]

I'd rather have blanks but Alps caps aren't exactly easy to come by so I'd probably get one of these sets anyway.

[MOZ]

Just got word that spacebar is only available in DSA alps, not DCS.

[dorkvader]

Cases:
The attempt will be to be able to use existing cases and design the PCB so that it can be used witch plates similar to those already in existence and thus compatible with existing cases. This is true for 60% as well as TKL.

more like:
Cases: Don't need a case if you got ALPS! Bare PCB and rubber bumpers on the desk.

[jacobolus]

If you make an Ergodox PCB, MassDrop would absolutely love to offer a Matias switch Ergodox (according to the guy at MassDrop responsible for keyboards).

Only thing I’d be worried about with that is that Alps switches won’t work quite as well as MX with the super thick acrylic plates. (The little plastic clips that hold the switches into a plate will just break off.)

Maybe we could design an Ergodox case to work with a bunch of layers of acrylic plus one layer of metal plate, to fix that problem. I think MassDrop might be able to get a reasonable number of purchasers and some supplier in China to make the metal (1.5mm thick aluminum or something) plate viable.

[jacobolus]

SP can do DSA as well, so that is a possibility for the future, they can also produce keycaps in PBT but those will be blank no dyesub and they don't plan having the facility in the near future.

I would love love love some blank PBT Alps caps. Especially DSA, but DCS would be okay too. I mainly just want a pile of 1x1 caps, and maybe some 1.25x1 / 1.5x1 caps. They had some Alps caps for sale as inventory, but only blank gray ABS DSA 1x1s, for $1/each.

Why can’t they do dye-subs for Alps? They seem to be able to do them for MX mount caps. I wonder what the difference is

However those are closer to OEM profile, so there is a profile mismatch and the reason why I didn't give it much thought.

I’ll try to take a picture of the profiles for various Alps caps. Those Alps-made ones (for Toshiba, etc. laptops) in particular are definitely lower than OEM profile.

Having through hole diode, through hole resistor and LED is very hard with the controller stuff on board, maybe possible with a Teensy. How about LED + SMD diode and pick n placed controller parts.

LEDs are so overrated. :-)

[jacobolus]

One thing that comes to mind is that many Alps boards (e.g. SGI Granite, Dell AT101) have an offset CapsLock where the stem is lined up with the Tab stem above it. So it's offset, but not as offset as a Cherry offset CapsLock. Do you know if SP has this mold?

I think these boards use Alps-style stabilizers, so SP caps don’t work anyway. You need a new PCB/plate.

[jacobolus]

Switches:
New Matias switches can be bought from MechanicalKeyboards.com as well as 7bit over on Deskthority.

Or directly from Matias in boxes of 200 switches. 7bit might be cheaper though, as I think he bought the larger sized boxes.

[MsYutai]

I'm interested... if I can get complicated Blue ALPS. I guess the original switch is hard to come by so I will definitely settle for the knock-off blue alps. They sound super awesome.

[jacobolus]

I'm interested... if I can get complicated Blue ALPS.

You need to hunt around on ebay then. Used keyboards with blue Alps are typically about $80-100.

I guess the original switch is hard to come by so I will definitely settle for the knock-off blue alps.

There aren’t really any knock offs of blue Alps, per se.

But you can get complicated white Alps, which are similar, with a bit heavier spring.

Or you can take the housing + slider + spring from an orange Alps switch, and add the click leaf from white Alps or Matias clicky switches, and then optionally slightly bend the click leaf to a more acute angle (i.e. slightly reduce the clickiness), and you’ll get something very close to blue Alps (though not 100% identical). The blue switch spring is very slightly lighter than the orange switch spring.

[katushkin]

Yes please. I've been meaning to look into getting more than MX switches, and I think it's time I dived in headfirst to a big GB.

[SonOfSonOfSpock]

An Ergodox with Alps sounds pretty awesome. I'm in if that's where this leads.

[AKmalamute]

Can someone more technically minded then I, finish what I started?

Attached is a file created in Inkscape; it's an SVG of the layout I want, in ALPS, but with a jpeg 'imported' for reference.

Also floating in the middle of the layout you'll find a bright shiny square. It is precisely the size one should expect between plate holes' edges -- just don't rotate it, and it will work for both height and width.

But I've never seen one of the cases it appears to be trying to match with so the mounting holes are just by guess and by-golly.

 Also the plate, as it stands now, has no edges. Just an infinite piece of metal with a few cut outs, just here.

Edit: LOL maybe this could go into, I don't know, 'making stuff together' ?

But 1st: I'm interested in getting an ALPS keyboard. See attached
and 2nd: once this is fixed, I think it would be okay to leave it hanging in a thread about ALPS plates and parts. Maybe someone will do a GB to make the idea a physical thing.

 Also I didn't see a handy ALPS thread in 'making stuff' that caused me to pine for reason of my lack of drafting talent.

 ALPs_60_175wkl.svgz (51.71 kB - downloaded 143 times.)

[MsYutai]

I'm interested... if I can get complicated Blue ALPS.

You need to hunt around on ebay then. Used keyboards with blue Alps are typically about $80-100.

I guess the original switch is hard to come by so I will definitely settle for the knock-off blue alps.

There aren’t really any knock offs of blue Alps, per se.

But you can get complicated white Alps, which are similar, with a bit heavier spring.

Or you can take the housing + slider + spring from an orange Alps switch, and add the click leaf from white Alps or Matias clicky switches, and then optionally slightly bend the click leaf to a more acute angle (i.e. slightly reduce the clickiness), and you’ll get something very close to blue Alps (though not 100% identical). The blue switch spring is very slightly lighter than the orange switch spring.

I was able to pick up the Rosewill RK-6000 which has clone blue ALPS! I just need to learn how to solder and potentially get in on this GB to get a sweet custom case. O_O

[nuclearsandwich]

I'm interested... if I can get complicated Blue ALPS.

You need to hunt around on ebay then. Used keyboards with blue Alps are typically about $80-100.

I guess the original switch is hard to come by so I will definitely settle for the knock-off blue alps.

There aren’t really any knock offs of blue Alps, per se.

But you can get complicated white Alps, which are similar, with a bit heavier spring.

Or you can take the housing + slider + spring from an orange Alps switch, and add the click leaf from white Alps or Matias clicky switches, and then optionally slightly bend the click leaf to a more acute angle (i.e. slightly reduce the clickiness), and you’ll get something very close to blue Alps (though not 100% identical). The blue switch spring is very slightly lighter than the orange switch spring.

I was able to pick up the Rosewill RK-6000 which has clone blue ALPS! I just need to learn how to solder and potentially get in on this GB to get a sweet custom case. O_O

Do you have details on the clone switches? Have you written them up anywhere? I am rather intrigued!

[MsYutai]

There's a review on them here:
http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=55191.0

I posted a first impressions on the bottom of that thread: http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=55191.msg1293525#msg1293525

I think they're pretty sweet, since I've never used the monterey blue ALPS I can't compare it to those though.

[AKmalamute]

I'd actually rather have the ALPS GH60 than an alps ergodox. Someday Spirit will move forward with his Face your World ALPS-version but too, there's shipping from the other side of the world to consider.

What happens if you use ALPS switches plateless? Does it just not work at all because there's no stabilizer pin like the PCB version of the MX switches?

[Hak Foo]

The plate serves two purposes:  making the board feel more solid, and probably eating some of the force that would otherwise pound on the switches' solder joints.

I'd expect if you tried to use an ALPS board plateless, you'd suffer fastrer breakdown, because all the force of the keystrokes would be forced onto thePCB and its connections.

I offhand can't think of an ALPS-sans-plate board.

[exitfire401]

I'd actually rather have the ALPS GH60 than an alps ergodox. Someday Spirit will move forward with his Face your World ALPS-version but too, there's shipping from the other side of the world to consider.

What happens if you use ALPS switches plateless? Does it just not work at all because there's no stabilizer pin like the PCB version of the MX switches?

Actually, an alps 60% would be perfect for work. I can't wait to see what comes of all this.

[nuclearsandwich]

The plate serves two purposes:  making the board feel more solid, and probably eating some of the force that would otherwise pound on the switches' solder joints.

I'd expect if you tried to use an ALPS board plateless, you'd suffer fastrer breakdown, because all the force of the keystrokes would be forced onto thePCB and its connections.

I offhand can't think of an ALPS-sans-plate board.

Alps switches need a plate because unlike MX switches there's nothing but the two leads that venture through the PCB like the MX center stem and PCB stabilizing tabs do. The two solder joints aren't enough to hold the switch in place even if using a board like that wouldn't rip out the traces / joints after a while.

[nubbinator]

Alps switches need a plate because unlike MX switches there's nothing but the two leads that venture through the PCB like the MX center stem and PCB stabilizing tabs do. The two solder joints aren't enough to hold the switch in place even if using a board like that wouldn't rip out the traces / joints after a while.

There are Alps style switches (clones or knockoffs) that can be PCB mounted:

[nuclearsandwich]

Alps switches need a plate because unlike MX switches there's nothing but the two leads that venture through the PCB like the MX center stem and PCB stabilizing tabs do. The two solder joints aren't enough to hold the switch in place even if using a board like that wouldn't rip out the traces / joints after a while.

There are Alps style switches (clones or knockoffs) that can be PCB mounted:

Show Image

Oh neat. I had never seen those before.

[AKmalamute]

There are Alps style switches (clones or knockoffs) that can be PCB mounted:

Show Image

Beautiful. Now, where do I get about 60-80 -ish of them? I'm guessing 7bit doesn't have a supplier :p

ah, well. Some day. Those look like they'd fit nicely in the single-switch PCB that's being worked on, since the board is switch neutral and those plastic pins look exactly like MX style PCB mounts.

[nubbinator]

I'm getting ~70 from Taobao.  I can share the link later.

[SonOfSonOfSpock]

I'd actually rather have the ALPS GH60 than an alps ergodox. Someday Spirit will move forward with his Face your World ALPS-version but too, there's shipping from the other side of the world to consider.

What happens if you use ALPS switches plateless? Does it just not work at all because there's no stabilizer pin like the PCB version of the MX switches?

Actually, an alps 60% would be perfect for work. I can't wait to see what comes of all this.

The Matias mini keyboards are smaller than full size. They're in between TKL and 60%. Also, a few months ago Matias was talking about doing a Matias 60% GB here. I don't think anything has come out of it yet though.

[tree]

An Ergodox with Alps sounds pretty awesome. I'm in if that's where this leads.

An Ergodox with ALPS is no longer a pipe dream

Czarek on deskthority found out that ALPS switches are compatible with his Ergodox PCB:
http://deskthority.net/for-sale-f55/ergodox-pcbs-cases-electronics-and-assembly-services-t6972-60.html

All we need is a groupbuy for some ALPS Ergodox keycaps, or those fancy 3d printed mrinterface ALPS-Cherry keycap adaptors, and we're set for life



...dreams do come true

Edit: ****, we'd also need some custom Ergodox ALPS plates too, since most ALPS switches weren't designed to be PCB mounted.

[BlueBär]

Edit: ****, we'd also need some custom Ergodox ALPS plates too, since most ALPS switches weren't designed to be PCB mounted.

Not most, all of them (apart from the ones nubs posted above).

[CPTBadAss]

All we need is a groupbuy for some ALPS Ergodox keycaps, or those fancy 3d printed mrinterface ALPS-Cherry keycap adaptors, and we're set for life

Think Matias can help us out with the keycaps. Ive heard those adaptors are very brittle though. I've been meaning to print some out and try out though.