Author Topic: Redefining what it means to be a Vendor/Artisan  (Read 3452 times)

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Offline Binge

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Redefining what it means to be a Vendor/Artisan
« on: Tue, 01 April 2014, 18:39:27 »
::EDIT:: I've had a few people ask me for a bit clarification.  Getting to the point isn't my strongest suit :(

I feel as if the artisan section is a patch job and as an artisan (don't know if I want to even use that term now) I have to choose to post in Geekhack Projects or the Geekhack Marketplace or both.  To post in Projects and Marketplace would be spamming, but that's the only way to really get proper exposure.  Whatever is happening now isn't making things better it's just making it different.  The below is a lengthy way to try and explain a Custom Summary and system of child forums to promote a single location for hackers to show off their projects/organize artisan sales/contests/promotions.

::EDIT::

Hello folks!  Binge with another meaningful post :D

* Binge pats self on back.

Patting aside I would like to talk with everyone about an issue which concerns our community, evolution of our community, and the importance of evolving due to our growth.  I'll start out by briefly defining what -I- believe are the definitions of these three points.

1) Geekhack.org has become an established and recognized internet community.  We've heard from MKAWA plenty of times and seen it throughout the years that this is a developed community of enthusiasts and that brings me to...

2) Evolving Geekhack.org.  The process by which the community gives back to itself and survives is by changing to better suit the lurker, member, and nutball alike.  Recently I feel as if evolution is forced because...

3) We are growing!  The growth may plateau a bit but truthfully we've had more meets between last year and now than I believe have ever happened in previous years combined.  We have more projects, more successful group buys, more in depth discussion, and more importantly more exposure to vendors and artisans.

How is Binge affected?  Well as an artisan I feel as if exposure is part of the game, and I think everyone deserves to be exposed for hacking stuff up and making it appealing to the community.  Geekhack has had a place for vendors and now a place for artisans has popped up with a great intent, but I feel as if the message is even less clear than it was before.   

I had to make an effort to secure a topic in Making Stuff Together which showed what it is that I do, and instructed others about how they could get started.  Others have to go through similar steps, but now there is a break in logic.  We are making things, but that is not to be put in "Making Stuff Together".  I am forced to choose between two spots to "hang out" in the forums.

How are other members affected?  Maybe you are an artisan as well, or you may want to see what community members and artisans are doing.  Either way this changes the way you look for user generated content on the forums.

I suggest that a subforum hub is created that features a "Custom Summary" page.  The custom summary page will be composed of ONE of the most recent posts from all "child forums" in order of newest to oldest.  These sub/child forums would be things like... Bro Bots or Killed By Kaps, and even what is now "making stuff together".

This would keep the landing page for projects/vendor news separated from other discussion, and it would show that some artisan/vendor child forums are just as content rich as an established sub like "making stuff together" while bringing active contributors into the summary to attract attention to the child forums.

There are problems with this design, but that is why I'm bringing the idea to the surface...  My reasoning is that the number of artisans/vendors/creators are the community, the need for showing everyone's most recent works is increasingly important, and I feel a fair and organized way of displaying people's wares/projects is important to the concerns listed above.

Thanks for your time and as always sorry about my formatting.

« Last Edit: Tue, 01 April 2014, 20:36:35 by Binge »
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Offline Photoelectric

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Re: Redefining what it means to be a Vendor/Artisan
« Reply #1 on: Tue, 01 April 2014, 18:57:51 »
In the meantime, if you'd like any of your threads moved into Artisan Services, please let us know.  The AS area is meant to be the kind of "summary" of artisan activity that you are talking about.

A problem with a unified subforum of announcements is that someone needs to be on top of updating it ALL the time.  It's not like group buys which are less numerous.  There are a fair number of people coming out with a lot of "stuff" all the time.  Artisans would need to keep them very up-to-date.

P.S.: If you have a running thread in the Artisan Services main area, you can already highlight your most recent developments in the first post if you'd like.   As far as choosing between two places, Artisan Services is in the Marketplace section, and Making Stuff Together is in the Projects (non-commercial) section.  One should be for actual tutorials and examples, and the other should be for actual sales.
--
example:

Jolonar's thread in the Making Stuff Together subforum: http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=47704.0
"Making leather wrist rests"

Jolonar's thread in the Artisan Services subforum: http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=51762.0
"Noko's Leatherworks - Custom Leather Wrist Rests - Quick Sale"
« Last Edit: Tue, 01 April 2014, 19:15:29 by Photoelectric »
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Offline noisyturtle

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Re: Redefining what it means to be a Vendor/Artisan
« Reply #2 on: Tue, 01 April 2014, 18:58:37 »
I was actually thinking about something similar earlier, which is great to know other GH'ers heads are in the same space. The main page featuring a board or creation from the folks here is a great idea, but would be cooler if everyone had the chance to be featured as well. I was toying with the notion of having something similar to employee of the month, but it would be Board of the Week. Posted each Saturday or Sunday, just featuring a snapshot of a board that stood out in the What Did You Add/Get in the Mail/Make Yourself. The only conundrum is who/whom would choose the board?

Of course being featured doesn't net you anything more than bragging rights, but it would be a cool way to display the output of the community. Featured pics of craters creations would also make the main page more welcoming and inciting. Personally I think it's great that GH is making changes to accommodate a wider audience. There's a growing demand in mech keyboard stuffs recently, and it would be stupid not to get in on the ground floor (with style.)
« Last Edit: Tue, 01 April 2014, 19:00:23 by noisyturtle »

Offline Binge

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Re: Redefining what it means to be a Vendor/Artisan
« Reply #3 on: Tue, 01 April 2014, 19:34:36 »
In the meantime, if you'd like any of your threads moved into Artisan Services, please let us know.  The AS area is meant to be the kind of "summary" of artisan activity that you are talking about.

I appreciate the offer, but I've not yet decided how things are going to pan out with my threads here on GH.  I'd like what I offer and what I do to be part of the community and not part of a segregated hodgepodge.  It's not that Binegcaps = Geekhack, but Bingecaps loves Geekhack and believes that Geekhack survives off of the inventive nature of its members whether the intention is less/more "commercial" or open source.  It all leads to innovation and creativity.

I feel as if the current AS area is an incomplete step in summarizing the developments of artisans.  There is no reason for people who have child forums to make another thread in this area because it is going to be cluttered.

A custom summary would have to be something not monitored by people, but implemented into the structure of the code.  The summary as I believe it best executed should display the most recent topic from each child/sub board in descending order by date/time max 20-50 results.  If the topic a sub/child is no longer active its posts won't even show in the custom summary.  The custom summary is like an evolution of the Spy function to be more user friendly and show the most up to date information from each section it oversees.

Again-- I find whats in place now to work, but as a patch job instead of a long term solution.  The growth will be messy.
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Offline Photoelectric

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Re: Redefining what it means to be a Vendor/Artisan
« Reply #4 on: Tue, 01 April 2014, 19:40:34 »
So you're saying that the artisan section is somehow not part of the community?  We don't have THAT many people offering custom-made things for sale per unit time, on average, and it's preferred to have as few child boards there as possible.
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Offline Binge

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Re: Redefining what it means to be a Vendor/Artisan
« Reply #5 on: Tue, 01 April 2014, 20:20:08 »
I'm saying that community discussion  tends to gravitate toward certain sections of GH.

Did it ever really seem like a great idea for vendors to always be part of a marketplace sub?  Some people don't run sales out of their vendor sub, and do their business entirely off of GH.  The sub they use works to inform people of changes or upcoming projects.

Does it make sense for hard working artisans to be given the real estate to shelf their efforts in a more "out of the way" location instead of making it more user friendly/organized?

Let's just for the sake of example imagine that I just read nubs guide and wanted to start making Bingecaps for the first time.  I would really wonder "where the heck do I belong?  where should I even post about this stuff? do I want to be seen in the artisan section or making stuff together?"

To me this shouldn't even be a question.  I shouldn't have to choose between projects and marketplace or be split between them.

As things grow and the community gets larger does this system really permit growth or force it to re-define itself once its designed capacities are taxed to the breaking point?

How does this solution differ from a band-aid?

To me it seems like a patch because it will eventually look like a mess unless heavily moderated.  Moderation should not be necessary for the sake of maintaining a subforum.

Sorry for ranting... but I just got a bit stirred up again because
So you're saying that the artisan section is somehow not part of the community?
is far from the truth.  It's part of the community and that's why I would rather it be something much more constructive and inviting.

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Offline jdcarpe

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Re: Redefining what it means to be a Vendor/Artisan
« Reply #6 on: Tue, 01 April 2014, 20:30:27 »
I don't really know where the confusion lies. If you have something you made, and want to show it off, post it in the appropriate section, e.g. Keycaps or Keyboards. If you have a guide or tutorial for making something that you want to share with others, post it in Making Stuff Together. If you have something you made for sale, or you have services to offer, post that in Artisan Services. Simple, right?
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Offline digi

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Re: Redefining what it means to be a Vendor/Artisan
« Reply #7 on: Tue, 01 April 2014, 20:37:21 »
*edit, I thought Binge would get his own subforum, apparently he doesn't have one...yet?
« Last Edit: Tue, 01 April 2014, 21:58:39 by digi »

Offline Photoelectric

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Re: Redefining what it means to be a Vendor/Artisan
« Reply #8 on: Tue, 01 April 2014, 20:37:36 »
I'll point our forum software maintenance people to this thread, because this currently not something we can implement, if I understand you correctly.  Unfortunately, even important changes take time with the limited workforce that we have on that front.  Suggestions that seem simple still are in the pipeline of changes to be made, with some being more important and at the front of the queue, and others being almost 'wishful thinking for some future date'.

The current changes are utilizing the features we currently have and can work with.  They may seem sub-optimal from the point of view of what could be IF we had a group of 100 full-time website administrators, working out all the issues and implementing lots of features, but we are very far from that.  The latest subforum was added as a step toward giving more room for artisans to offer their goods in a more liberal fashion than the Classifieds allows and for greater exposure.  I'm sure there are a dozen better ways to go about doing this, but this was the most straightforward one for what we can do right now.
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Offline demik

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Re: Redefining what it means to be a Vendor/Artisan
« Reply #9 on: Tue, 01 April 2014, 20:47:48 »
So you're saying that the artisan section is somehow not part of the community?  We don't have THAT many people offering custom-made things for sale per unit time, on average, and it's preferred to have as few child boards there as possible.

but you just added a subforum with ONE link in it for the last week.

and you added another subforum with links from another subforum. and all you did was transfer some childboards to another subforum.

there is an xzibit joke in there somewhere
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Offline Photoelectric

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Re: Redefining what it means to be a Vendor/Artisan
« Reply #10 on: Tue, 01 April 2014, 20:54:41 »
The reason for the external auction links subforum is as follows: we no longer allow auctions on the site, so it's a compromise.  Also we encourage others to sell on eBay, as it's a more secure place to have a monetary transaction with multiple levels of buyer and seller protection.  It's safer for people to sell there and link here if they wish.  I think there's a good possibility that subforum will be utilized more once the new 2-month + 25-post requirement for posting on the Classifieds will be implemented.  Those new members who are impatient will list on eBay and link in that subforum--which is fine for the aforementioned reasons.
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Offline Binge

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Re: Redefining what it means to be a Vendor/Artisan
« Reply #11 on: Tue, 01 April 2014, 20:55:09 »
I don't really know where the confusion lies. If you have something you made, and want to show it off, post it in the appropriate section, e.g. Keycaps or Keyboards. If you have a guide or tutorial for making something that you want to share with others, post it in Making Stuff Together. If you have something you made for sale, or you have services to offer, post that in Artisan Services. Simple, right?

Totally understandable except that vendors were given a section where they could maintain and archive a bunch of information important to their business/craft. 

They really only have one place they should be posting news/updates.  Sort of like their own private micro-blog, but it doesn't get seen anywhere unless someone subs to an individual thread.  There's no chance to see that exposure.

Now these folks have a great advantage of being able to archive information and keep things organized which comes at the cost of the aforementioned handicap of the subforum.

That is where I'm confused.

I'll illustrate with pros/cons?  That might work...

Child Forum Artisan

Pros
1. Quick Link right on the forum index
2. Name out for public view
3. Ability to organize/archive without losing old threads to someone else's mess.

Cons
1. Only update visibility is that the child forum will be marked unread, spy, and potentially a subscription.
2. Probably frowned upon to use the classifieds for short sales
2. Probably frowned on to post about artisan creations outside of child forum.

Regular Artisan
Pros
1. Able to post updates to all subforums and get more exposure.

Cons
1. Probably frowned upon to use the classifieds for short sales
2. Lacking forum forum index recognition
3. Lacking the ability to archive posts/organize information.
4. Lacking name recognition of child forum artisans.

::edit:: from reading some of the posts above it seems like posting on all subforums is suggested?  This sort of stuff just isn't clear. :(
« Last Edit: Tue, 01 April 2014, 20:58:00 by Binge »
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Offline demik

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Re: Redefining what it means to be a Vendor/Artisan
« Reply #12 on: Tue, 01 April 2014, 20:59:58 »
The reason for the external auction links subforum is as follows: we no longer allow auctions on the site, so it's a compromise.  Also we encourage others to sell on eBay, as it's a more secure place to have a monetary transaction with multiple levels of buyer and seller protection.  It's safer for people to sell there and link here if they wish.  I think there's a good possibility that subforum will be utilized more once the new 2-month + 25-post requirement for posting on the Classifieds will be implemented.  Those new members who are impatient will list on eBay and link in that subforum--which is fine for the aforementioned reasons.

but why even have a rule if you're just giving people an alternative to by-pass that rule?
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Offline Photoelectric

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Re: Redefining what it means to be a Vendor/Artisan
« Reply #13 on: Tue, 01 April 2014, 21:03:31 »
The reason for the external auction links subforum is as follows: we no longer allow auctions on the site, so it's a compromise.  Also we encourage others to sell on eBay, as it's a more secure place to have a monetary transaction with multiple levels of buyer and seller protection.  It's safer for people to sell there and link here if they wish.  I think there's a good possibility that subforum will be utilized more once the new 2-month + 25-post requirement for posting on the Classifieds will be implemented.  Those new members who are impatient will list on eBay and link in that subforum--which is fine for the aforementioned reasons.

but why even have a rule if you're just giving people an alternative to by-pass that rule?

We don't have a proper infrastructure for running auctions.  Auctions generate a lot of drama because of this lack of infrastructure.  eBay has this infrastructure.  People listing on eBay instead of here = good.  If a newbie with zero heatware feedback wants to sell a keyboard on eBay and advertise it here, and someone buys it via eBay, the buyer is covered, and no one is going to argue about auction terms.
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Offline demik

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Re: Redefining what it means to be a Vendor/Artisan
« Reply #14 on: Tue, 01 April 2014, 21:06:26 »
that's not my point. i understand why gh doesn't want auction hosted here. i understand the drama behind auctions and so on. what i don't get is, you try to discourage users just posting in classifieds to sell their stuff with the 2 month rule.. but you give them a way around it with that new subforum. so why even have the rule? rule should apply to both classifieds and the ebay subforum.

if you don't have 2 months and/or 25 posts, you can't sell here, no matter what. you may be using a third party to list, but you're still advertising it here while others actually take the time to be part of the community before they are allowed to sell.
« Last Edit: Tue, 01 April 2014, 21:08:14 by demik »
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Offline digi

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Re: Redefining what it means to be a Vendor/Artisan
« Reply #15 on: Tue, 01 April 2014, 21:07:01 »
.
« Last Edit: Tue, 01 April 2014, 21:58:50 by digi »

Offline Photoelectric

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Re: Redefining what it means to be a Vendor/Artisan
« Reply #16 on: Tue, 01 April 2014, 21:09:05 »
that's not my point. i understand why gh doesn't want auction hosted here. i understand the drama behind auctions and so on. what i don't get is, you try to discourage users just posting in classifieds to sell their stuff with the 2 month rule.. but you give them a way around it with that new subforum. so why even have the rule? rule should apply to both classifieds and the ebay subforum.

That rule is mainly for people to build some reputation for added buyer protection.  Buying via eBay adds a lot more buyer protection.  The less buying/selling drama on the site due to shady dealings, the better.
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Offline demik

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Re: Redefining what it means to be a Vendor/Artisan
« Reply #17 on: Tue, 01 April 2014, 21:21:32 »
sorry binge, i went off topic in your thread. hope you get your concerns sorted out.
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Offline Binge

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Re: Redefining what it means to be a Vendor/Artisan
« Reply #18 on: Tue, 01 April 2014, 21:21:56 »
sort of going to go out on a limb here and ask to please keep this about vendor/artisan sub forums and best practices...

Auction drama can take up arms somewhere else.

sorry binge, i went off topic in your thread. hope you get your concerns sorted out.

thanks demik, no hard feelins
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Offline SpAmRaY

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Re: Redefining what it means to be a Vendor/Artisan
« Reply #19 on: Tue, 01 April 2014, 21:49:13 »
i see things are still being moved around  :-X
« Last Edit: Wed, 02 April 2014, 14:32:36 by SpAmRaY »