Author Topic: Is this a rubber dome board?  (Read 12561 times)

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Offline Voixdelion

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Is this a rubber dome board?
« on: Fri, 09 April 2010, 09:49:02 »
And if so WHY on earth is it so expensive?

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16823131087
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Offline didjamatic

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Is this a rubber dome board?
« Reply #1 on: Fri, 09 April 2010, 09:50:57 »
It is a rubber dome, but it's a keytronic which is a very good rubber dome.  This model also has an integrated trackball which would drive the price up.
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Offline wellington1869

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« Reply #2 on: Fri, 09 April 2010, 10:04:30 »
i've never tried a keytronic, now i'm curious.

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Offline Voixdelion

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Is this a rubber dome board?
« Reply #3 on: Fri, 09 April 2010, 10:08:51 »
better to be curious at geeks.com instead of newegg tho- half the price:

http://www.geeks.com/details.asp?InvtId=TRACKBALL-P2-PB&cpc=RESX

And what qualifies a good rubber dome?  I was getting the idea that general opinion was that there was no such thing..
"The more you tolerate each other, the less enforcement will happen."-iMav

Offline Voixdelion

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Is this a rubber dome board?
« Reply #4 on: Fri, 09 April 2010, 10:26:22 »
Aha!  the not-pronounceable  demystified for me.  Thank you; with all my other worries I hadn't gotten around to looking it up yet.
"The more you tolerate each other, the less enforcement will happen."-iMav

Offline ruumis

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Is this a rubber dome board?
« Reply #5 on: Fri, 09 April 2010, 10:29:42 »
Quote from: Voixdelion;170867
And what qualifies a good rubber dome?  I was getting the idea that general opinion was that there was no such thing..


I dunno, the older Dell QuietKey boards (with the "plungers over rubber domes") are pretty solid. Not something I'd want to type on every day, but certainly workable for short-term situations where you need a decent typing experience without the noise of buckling springs...
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Offline wellington1869

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« Reply #6 on: Fri, 09 April 2010, 10:31:54 »
did some quick googling, keytronics get rave reviews on newegg and amazon. Some reviewers comparing it to the M (!), describing them as clicky, tactile, smooth. Also one review says keytronics domes are rated at 30 million strokes (!) (IIRC alps are only rated at 10 million).
Which just feeds my curiosity. Might pick one up on ebay or geeks.com.

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Offline ch_123

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« Reply #7 on: Fri, 09 April 2010, 10:39:07 »
Quote from: wellington1869;170880
did some quick googling, keytronics get rave reviews on newegg and amazon. Some reviewers comparing it to the M (!), describing them as clicky, tactile, smooth. Also one review says keytronics domes are rated at 30 million strokes (!) (IIRC alps are only rated at 10 million).
Which just feeds my curiosity. Might pick one up on ebay or geeks.com.


Logitechs get rave reviews. Microsoft "ergonomic" keyboards get rave reviews. 65% of computer users use XP. You get the idea...

I'm confused by this guy who goes on a large rant about being addicted to buying keyboards and then comes back to spend lots of money on **** keyboards. Oh well...

Offline wellington1869

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« Reply #8 on: Fri, 09 April 2010, 11:17:29 »
Quote from: ch_123;170885
Logitechs get rave reviews. Microsoft "ergonomic" keyboards get rave reviews. 65% of computer users use XP. You get the idea...

I'm confused by this guy who goes on a large rant about being addicted to buying keyboards and then comes back to spend lots of money on **** keyboards. Oh well...


not sure $30 is "a lot of money". I wish i had a lot of money.

as for **** keyboards, I think the point being made is that not all domes/scissors are **** keyboards.

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Offline Voixdelion

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Is this a rubber dome board?
« Reply #9 on: Fri, 09 April 2010, 11:23:59 »
Are all key tronic boards having the same type of tech?  I was curious about whether the  trak101 would solve my M5-1 concerns   -  The keyboard would be a daily type fest, so ultimately that takes precedence over mousing added benefits.  Would it and my sanity be able to take the pounding of hours at a stretch muse inspirations?
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Offline wellington1869

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« Reply #10 on: Fri, 09 April 2010, 11:26:12 »
so a lot of folks have asked me how I can go thru nearly every mechanical switch on the market and in the end wind up on domes.

I guess at some point I stopped buying into the "domes vs mechanical" paradigm.  At some point I just see keyboards as "nice to type" or "not nice to type". Not saying thats how it should be done; just saying that seems to be what happened in my case. Each has its advantages (simplicity and (usually) inexpensive domes; expensive and uber-tactile mechanicals).

I also own both an ibook and a dell.  At some point I got over 'apple vs ms' and started looking at 'whats useful for what purpose'.  Again not saying thats how it should be done; just saying thats what happened in my case.

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Offline wellington1869

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« Reply #11 on: Fri, 09 April 2010, 11:30:06 »
Quote from: Voixdelion;170896
Are all key tronic boards having the same type of tech?  I was curious about whether the  trak101 would solve my M5-1 concerns   -  The keyboard would be a daily type fest, so ultimately that takes precedence over mousing added benefits.  Would it and my sanity be able to take the pounding of hours at a stretch muse inspirations?


from my quick googling, it appears there are some things to watch out for with keytronics boards:
--layout differences. A lot (most?) of keytronics boards seem to have the large L-shaped enter key and tiny backspace key. Have to be careful if that matters to you.
--lots of ps2 keytronics boards out there; usb ones seem harder to come by.
--not all models are equally celebrated. A lot of reviewers have mentioned that some keytronics boards are much better than others. Probably thing to do once you have a part number is google for reviews on it.

IIRC, the original DAS  was a rebranded keytronics board. I think it was the 'lifetime' model with the different weightings on the keys.
« Last Edit: Fri, 09 April 2010, 11:41:36 by wellington1869 »

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Offline ch_123

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« Reply #12 on: Fri, 09 April 2010, 11:35:17 »
Quote from: wellington1869;170897
so a lot of folks have asked me how I can go thru nearly every mechanical switch on the market and in the end wind up on domes.

I guess at some point I stopped buying into the "domes vs mechanical" paradigm.  At some point I just see keyboards as "nice to type" or "not nice to type". Not saying thats how it should be done; just saying that seems to be what happened in my case. Each has its advantages (simplicity and (usually) inexpensive domes; expensive and uber-tactile mechanicals).

I also own both an ibook and a dell.  At some point I got over 'apple vs ms' and started looking at 'whats useful for what purpose'.  Again not saying thats how it should be done; just saying thats what happened in my case.


Right, so where are rubber dome keyboards better than mechanicals?

Offline wellington1869

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« Reply #13 on: Fri, 09 April 2010, 11:37:27 »
Quote from: ch_123;170901
Right, so where are rubber dome keyboards better than mechanicals?


this is highly subjective. I dont think anyone here used the word "better". There are definitely rubber dome boards that people have "liked".  Some of them mentioned in this thread.

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Offline itlnstln

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« Reply #14 on: Fri, 09 April 2010, 11:46:37 »
Quote from: ch_123;170901
Right, so where are rubber dome keyboards better than mechanicals?

Topres.


Offline kishy

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Is this a rubber dome board?
« Reply #15 on: Fri, 09 April 2010, 11:46:51 »
If KeyTronic is still building them "like they used to", then yes, Keytronic rubber dome keyboards are acceptable-ish. They do have a somewhat "crisp" tactile point when they collapse, but as is true for rubber domes in general, you need to crush the thing down with force to get a keystroke to register.

Come to think of it, the feel of my old KeyTronic was like that of the Unicomp rubber dome, but not quite as crisp.

I wouldn't want to type on one for any extended period of time - any keyboard without a very loud noise and highly pronounced click bothers me after a while - but they're acceptable.

Welly, if you really do like the SK-8115 and aren't messing with us, you will NOT like a KeyTronic. SK-8115s are extremely mushy keyboard with lots of board flex, and a KeyTronic (assuming equal build quality to the past models) is a very dramatic departure from that.
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Offline wellington1869

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« Reply #16 on: Fri, 09 April 2010, 12:12:27 »
Quote from: kishy;170906
If  but as is true for rubber domes in general, you need to crush the thing down with force to get a keystroke to register.


as an aside, I always crush the keys anyway when i type, so the whole 'not bottoming out' thing never applied to me personally. I was just more interested some level of sound it makes and in some level of tactility. But yea, if someone doesnt like bottoming, then mechanicals are probably better suited for them.

different strokes...

Quote

Welly, if you really do like the SK-8115 and aren't messing with us, you will NOT like a KeyTronic. SK-8115s are extremely mushy keyboard with lots of board flex, and a KeyTronic (assuming equal build quality to the past models) is a very dramatic departure from that.


well technically what i'm using is the RT7D50. This thread discusses the difference between it and the sk-8115. They look nearly identical but there's actually a noticeable difference. The RT is crisper. It took some doing to find one of these boards on ebay.
Of course "crisp" is relative, i'm not making any absolute claims here.  But yea even on domes, there are total mush ones (which i dont like) and relatively crisper ones (which i dont mind) (and hell some of the scissors boards like the dinovo or ci73 can be substantially crisp so long as you dont mind bottoming).

I mash the keys anyway, and the more crisp dome boards can provide a nice velvety bottom (rather than merely being mush). Thats definitely the case on the topre for instance.

Dome boards can vary so much even in the initial key resistance. I like relatively heavy keys in general and its not hard to find initial-resistances that suit me well even  among dome boards.  (Among mechanicals mostly i stuck with the heavier switches like alps or buckling springs).

Speaking of decent/crisp domes, the ibm thinkpad ultranavs rock too, i could type on those all day.
« Last Edit: Fri, 09 April 2010, 12:33:29 by wellington1869 »

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Offline itlnstln

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« Reply #17 on: Fri, 09 April 2010, 12:26:18 »
Quote from: wellington1869;170920
different strokes...

I see what you did there.


Offline wellington1869

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« Reply #18 on: Fri, 09 April 2010, 12:32:06 »
Quote from: itlnstln;170930
I see what you did there.


tee hee :)

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Offline kishy

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« Reply #19 on: Fri, 09 April 2010, 12:38:55 »
I didn't, but now I do.

And you royally trashed my quote when you quoted me lol, "If but as is true" lmao
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Offline ch_123

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« Reply #20 on: Fri, 09 April 2010, 12:53:43 »
Quote from: itlnstln;170905
Topres.


Doesn't sound like a Topre to me.

Also, metal domes? Lolwut?

Offline Voixdelion

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« Reply #21 on: Fri, 09 April 2010, 12:59:01 »
Well after asking the owner of a keytronic trak101 under my consideration what was under the key caps:

"It had rubber piece that springs the key up"

and referred to this as apparently the guts of the thing-

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=260581066714&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT

 I'm, guessing this is the plunger dome spoken of?  does anybody have typing experiences to go with these?  SPecifically how does the tactile correspond to signaling actuated keystrokes?  even if the keytronics are quiet, if they successfully can communicate whether or not my stroke was registered and has some resistance/spring to it I think typing would be fine.  what I love most about my model M's is that I can trust more than my eyes to know if a "backspace" is in order while fingers are trying to keep up with my brain...

EDIT>> nvm relevant stuff posted while I was typing that...- see? this is why I need my M's - by the time I get the info typed the whole world has  moved on...
« Last Edit: Fri, 09 April 2010, 13:03:26 by Voixdelion »
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Offline ch_123

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« Reply #22 on: Fri, 09 April 2010, 13:03:07 »
Interesting. That would make it a buckling rubber sleeve keyboard. I wonder if there were different revisions of the Trak101, because rubber sleeve keyboards are not all that common these days.

Offline wellington1869

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« Reply #23 on: Fri, 09 April 2010, 13:07:59 »
Quote from: kishy;170934


And you royally trashed my quote when you quoted me lol, "If but as is true" lmao


haha. that prolly wouldnt have happened if i was on my M ;-)

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Offline Rajagra

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Is this a rubber dome board?
« Reply #24 on: Fri, 09 April 2010, 13:51:08 »
Quote from: wellington1869;170898
things to watch out for with keytronics boards:
...
--lots of ps2 keytronics boards out there; usb ones seem harder to come by.


That's pretty ironic since they claimed to be the first brand to produce USB keyboards.

Quote
SPOKANE, Wash.--(BUSINESS WIRE)--Nov. 18, 1996--Key Tronic Corp. (NASDAQ: KTCC), a world leader in keyboard and input device technology, today announced KT2000 USB Keyboards, the first ready-for-market Universal Serial Bus (USB) keyboards, offering PC users unprecedented flexibility and ease of use for attaching peripherals.

Showcased today at Fall COMDEX in Las Vegas, KT2000 keyboards usher in a new era of plug-and-play ease for users, being the first keyboards available for use with the new USB plug-in ports that will soon become the industry standard single …

Offline keyb_gr

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Is this a rubber dome board?
« Reply #25 on: Fri, 09 April 2010, 15:02:02 »
Wouldn't USB boards be more likely to be still in use? Just a thought...

Anyway, what's a serious keyboard collector without a Blue Cube or comparable adapter?
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Offline hyperlinked

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« Reply #26 on: Fri, 09 April 2010, 15:17:38 »
Poor Welly. He goes away for a while and comes back and gets fistsfulls of GH Love. ;)

I'm actually with ya on this one Welly... sort of. I think mechanicals are more fun, but there are plenty of domes that I would have no issue with having as my regular board except for one reason. So far the only board that has allowed me to type almost as much as I want without suffering pain is my Filco Cherry Brown. Before I got this, I was rationing my keyboard time with speech recognition, uber mouse macros, and anything I could do allow me to make the most of my time behind the screen.

That said, if I didn't have much firsthand knowledge of a specific domed board vs. a specific mechanical board, I'd rather go with the mechanical board even if it costs me several times as much because I've spent way too much money going through domed boards one after another because the rubber wore out after 10 months of pounding or the keys started jamming after a couple of months.

A good board is still a good board to me no matter what's underneath it.
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Offline wellington1869

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« Reply #27 on: Fri, 09 April 2010, 15:28:08 »
Quote from: hyperlinked;170992
Poor Welly. He goes away for a while and comes back and gets fistsfulls of GH Love. ;)

I'm actually with ya on this one Welly... sort of. I think mechanicals are more fun, but there are plenty of domes that I would have no issue with having as my regular board except for one reason. So far the only board that has allowed me to type almost as much as I want without suffering pain is my Filco Cherry Brown. Before I got this, I was rationing my keyboard time with speech recognition, uber mouse macros, and anything I could do allow me to make the most of my time behind the screen.

hey i'm an equal opportunity inputter -- i also use Dragon, with a wireless cs50 microphone (and it rocks). I'm quite a dragon fan actually. So dont even get me going on voice input :)

Plus I'm in process right now of building a copy stand. "Why?" you ask?
Copy stand + canon sx100 + abbby fine reader OCR = digital copier with instant conversion of paper into searchable pdfs. No typing! Great not only to begin digitizing some of my books into ebooks on my own, but also for not having to type in long quotes for book reviews and papers.

so yea, images, voice input, mechanicals, or domes -- whatever gets me there efficiently, I'll use!


Quote

going through domed boards one after another because the rubber wore out after 10 months

even here domes are catching up; the keytronic lifetime series apparently advertizes 30 million strokes, whcih is as much (in some cases, like alps, more) as mechanicals.

again, i'm not advocating domes OVER mechanicals (i'm not that crazy). I'm just saying they're more functional than ever, and as you say:

Quote

A good board is still a good board to me no matter what's underneath it.

qft

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Offline ch_123

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« Reply #28 on: Fri, 09 April 2010, 15:31:33 »
Likewise, I could probably live with some cheapo-brand rubber dome keyboard, and I don't recoil in horror when I have to use one, but it's really a case of why you'd bother getting one if you know about the better things out there.

Sure if you only have a very limited budget then a rubber dome keyboard may be the only way to go, but if you're looking into $70-80, you're starting to get into the price range of a decent new mechanical keyboard (or about two decent second hand keyboards) and there's no point in buying something that's objectively worse. Besides, 9 times out of 10, the expensive rubber dome keyboards are like the expensive ones, except with an LCD screen, or a slight bend put in it so that the marketing department can go "ERGONOMIC HURR DURR" but really has no correlation to anything vaguely related to healthy typing positions.

"Objectively worse?!" I hear you cry - yep. Think about it, what exactly is it that rubber dome switches do that mechanical ones don't? Sure, I can see some people who would want a Blue Cherry over a Bickling Spring, a Topre over a Cherry, an Alps over a Topre... But rubber domes don't really do anything other than be cheap. On the flipside, any mechanical switch is going to give you greater reliability and a much longer lifetime. Sure there's differences in relative quality between rubber dome keyboards, but that really just determines whether it feels like **** out of the box, or after a few months of use. No problem if it cost you $20, but if you're spending the sort of money on a rubber dome keyboard that you could spend on a keyboard that would last you 10 years, then you're only fooling yourself.

Quote
A good board is still a good board to me no matter what's underneath it.

I'd be willing to say that at least 75% of what makes a good board is what's underneath it, so it's a bit of a copout argument to say the least. It's like "I don't care what sort of engine my car has as long as it's fast"
« Last Edit: Fri, 09 April 2010, 15:43:02 by ch_123 »

Offline kishy

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« Reply #29 on: Fri, 09 April 2010, 15:32:57 »
Well, they claim that time period before it stops functioning...

Not the same thing as when it stops feeling the same.

Of course, same goes for Alps, so whatever.

Glad to hear you don't like the SK-8115. There are actually very few boards much worse than it if you ask me.

And yes, I'm with CH on the overall lack of a sensible reason to use rubber domes, but for some of us we migrate to mechanicals from preference, regardless of them being better or not. It then stands to reason that people can prefer inferior things simply because they prefer them. It's difficult to argue with that...nobody is going to tell me to stop using buckling spring keyboards. I don't use them because I consider them superior, I use them because I like them (but I do feel they are superior, though this isn't factored into the preference).
« Last Edit: Fri, 09 April 2010, 15:35:31 by kishy »
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Offline Voixdelion

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« Reply #30 on: Fri, 09 April 2010, 15:35:59 »
Quote from: ch_123;170949
Interesting. That would make it a buckling rubber sleeve keyboard. I wonder if there were different revisions of the Trak101, because rubber sleeve keyboards are not all that common these days.

 I suppose this is what they mean by "rubber mechanical keyswitch technology" which I have just spent hours trying to figure out wtf that meant... Is there a write up of this somewhere?

As to the concept of something being "objectively worse", the whole point is that it isn't objective at all, but subjective preference at the heart of the issue isn't it?  I was talking about this forum with another friend of mine as I regaled him with the story of my delight in getting hold of  a ye olde model M of my very own and he (my age) agreed that they were the most pleasant for him to use as well.  He then brought up something that I've only seen a couple of references to in discussing those, in that for those of us who first learned to type on the IBM Selectrics, it was also the most familiar for us in terms of how it felt.

 TOUCH-type= Feel, duh.  The user experience then might be entirely different in what is comfortable to use depending on what their first instrument was in that same vein.  There are many who find the M lot just too much work to bang the keys, maybe because their first typing steps were taken on a (shudder) flimsy membrane mushy board that responded to a much lighter touch.  I wonder if there has been an empirical gathering of "preferential" data which might show a generation of those who prefer the way those boards feel because the other alternative has such a foreign tactile sensation.  My fingers are so clumsy on those rubber domey things because I've trained my hands to work on the M-feeling ones, but I didn't even notice it as an issue until I started typing all day and happened upon something that triggered a nostalgia by accident and provided my wake-up call that I needed something better suited to my typing than what I had.  

Thing is, even then, without that nostalgia, it would never even have occurred to me that the keyboard was a problem.  Not only is it important to use the right tool for the job, but sometimes it can even be a matter of the right tool for the person doing the job.  Home depot is making some notable efforts towards female-friendly equipment as of late in just that line of thinking.  Gloves come to mind in particular, though my Mom and I saw a Black & Decker cordless driver that we both thought was "cute" last time we were there.  Might as well have tinted it pink.
« Last Edit: Fri, 09 April 2010, 16:11:26 by Voixdelion »
"The more you tolerate each other, the less enforcement will happen."-iMav

Offline ch_123

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« Reply #31 on: Fri, 09 April 2010, 15:48:58 »
Quote from: kishy;171002
And yes, I'm with CH on the overall lack of a sensible reason to use rubber domes, but for some of us we migrate to mechanicals from preference, regardless of them being better or not. It then stands to reason that people can prefer inferior things simply because they prefer them. It's difficult to argue with that...nobody is going to tell me to stop using buckling spring keyboards. I don't use them because I consider them superior, I use them because I like them (but I do feel they are superior, though this isn't factored into the preference).


That depends on whether the person has tried a representative sample of the options available to him or her. If someone actually feels that a rubber dome keyboard is better than a mechanical one after trying a number of mechanicals, then fair enough. I just doubt you're going to find many people like that.

Other than that, you get into "That's good enough for me" syndrome, which is something I despise in people. It's rather annoying when helping people with, for example, computer issues, and you recommend them an alternative software package or piece of hardware that would make their lives a whole lot easier, but they cling on to what they are used to like a child to it's blanket. Of couse, you see it with non computer related things, and it's just as annoying. I think people should always have an open mind and be willing to shop around within limits of reason.

Offline ch_123

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« Reply #32 on: Fri, 09 April 2010, 15:50:32 »
Quote from: Voixdelion;171003
I suppose this is what they mean by "rubber mechanical keyswitch technology" which I have just spent hours trying to figure out wtf that meant... Is there a write up of this somewhere?


Do a geekhack search on the IBM M4-1. This would be the most common example of a rubber sleeve keyboard around here, but exact implementations may vary from keyboard to keyboard.

Offline hyperlinked

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Is this a rubber dome board?
« Reply #33 on: Fri, 09 April 2010, 16:19:08 »
Quote from: ch_123;171000
I'd be willing to say that at least 75% of what makes a good board is what's underneath it, so it's a bit of a copout argument to say the least. It's like "I don't care what sort of engine my car has as long as it's fast"

Ok then, let me refine that statement. I really don't care if I'm typing on domes as long as they're good domes. I don't see how that's a cop out and like what Welly said, I didn't just say rubber domes are better. I actually said that I'd rather take my chances on an unknown mechanical over an unknown rubber domed board if I had no prior knowledge of either, but if I had one of those Keytronics, I might be typing on that instead of Cherry switches right now and laughing at everyone here who have withdrawl symptoms when they go beyond smelling distance of their Model M.
« Last Edit: Fri, 09 April 2010, 16:47:19 by hyperlinked »
-

Topre: Realforce 103U Cherry: Filco Majestouch 104 (Brown), Ione Scorpius M10 (Blue)
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Offline kishy

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Is this a rubber dome board?
« Reply #34 on: Fri, 09 April 2010, 16:42:14 »
Quote from: hyperlinked;171015
everyone here who have withdrawl symptoms when they go beyond smelling distance of their Model M.


Solution:



Model M, while also being rubber dome! We must have evaluated this incorrectly...it's the best thing since x86.

CH, true true. However sometimes it's best to let it go when attempting to correct people's behaviour, so long as they don't cross the line into suggesting their behaviour should propagate itself throughout a community.
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Offline ch_123

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« Reply #35 on: Fri, 09 April 2010, 16:48:06 »
Quote from: kishy;171021
CH, true true. However sometimes it's best to let it go when attempting to correct people's behaviour, so long as they don't cross the line into suggesting their behaviour should propagate itself throughout a community.


Agreed, what I was getting at there was moreso an assertive smugness than a passive indifference. It wasn't directed at anyone, I was just questioning the wisdom of automatically assuming that if someone likes something that that is the best thing for them.

Offline Otterclock

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« Reply #36 on: Fri, 09 April 2010, 16:48:19 »
I think so far buckling springs are my fave. This is a new development.

However... honestly I've seen zero non-anecdotal evidence for mechanical switch superiority regarding reliability, with the exception of old IBMs. Of the handful of popular mechanical manufacturers, several have a history of problems. I think it's so unfounded that unqualified preaching of it to newcomers is borderline irresponsible.

From what I can tell, the Logitech 200 and $6.99 Lite-On 1788 have a better record of reliability than Das Keyboard, ABS M1, and the Scorpius. That's a big chunk of the handful of companies marketing mechanical boards. I've personally overseen 100s of rubber dome boards that have lasted years in high usage, high abuse environments. It's really more about the particular brand. Keytronic has a lifetime warranty. No mechanical switch board has that. Even if it's a gimmick, it wouldn't be very wise if rubber domes all lasted 10 months.

So that pretty much leaves personal taste.

I likes my buckling spring, but just sayin.
« Last Edit: Fri, 09 April 2010, 16:53:22 by Otterclock »
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Offline ch_123

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« Reply #37 on: Fri, 09 April 2010, 17:04:03 »
This is a good point, but really what I was talking about was the switch design themselves, and not dodgy keyboards that get it wrong. Every camp has their example of that (Even IBM had the notorious Model M2)

Quote
However... honestly I've seen zero non-anecdotal evidence for mechanical switch superiority regarding reliability,

Lifetime ratings from manufacturers. Rubber domes? 1 million? 2 million? 4 million? Some are 10 million... Mechanical switches start at 20 and go well up from there (hitting around the 100 million mark for Model Fs and Beam Springs). Before you talk about objectivity, remember that the like of Cherry and Unicomp make both so the benchmarks are definitely comparable.

I'd be very interested in seeing the details of that Keytronic warranty by the way...
« Last Edit: Fri, 09 April 2010, 17:14:32 by ch_123 »

Offline wellington1869

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« Reply #38 on: Fri, 09 April 2010, 17:15:18 »
Quote from: Otterclock;171024
I think so far buckling springs are my fave. This is a new development.

However... honestly I've seen zero non-anecdotal evidence for mechanical switch superiority regarding reliability, with the exception of old IBMs. Of the handful of popular mechanical manufacturers, several have a history of problems. I think it's so unfounded that unqualified preaching of it to newcomers is borderline irresponsible.

From what I can tell, the Logitech 200 and $6.99 Lite-On 1788 have a better record of reliability than Das Keyboard, ABS M1, and the Scorpius. That's a big chunk of the handful of companies marketing mechanical boards. I've personally overseen 100s of rubber dome boards that have lasted years in high usage, high abuse environments. It's really more about the particular brand. Keytronic has a lifetime warranty. No mechanical switch board has that. Even if it's a gimmick, it wouldn't be very wise if rubber domes all lasted 10 months.

So that pretty much leaves personal taste.

I likes my buckling spring, but just sayin.


I think otter put it well.  come on guys, without anyone saying domes are better, isnt it absolutely true that with so many mechanical models, there have been more headaches than not? This forum itself is a monument to the level of headache that a mechanical board can produce.  Not saying domes are  better; AM saying it really actually is hard to make any objective case for 'betterness' with mechanicals in any broad way.
Just the other day someone was trying to produce a 'persuasive' argument in favor of mechanicals, and they couldnt find enough info, on reliability, not even on ergonomics.
So like otter, while I wont say domes are better, I do think this is a situation where taste and likes/dislikes plays a huge role. I think this is a case where it plays a legitimate role, too. Everyone types differently.

its like if you compare automobiles. You can say one is faster than another, but if that were the only criteria, anyone who doesnt own a bugatti is to be considered an idiot? There are so many other factors that go into the purchase decision, personal tastes, uses for which the automobile will be put, and economics, and availability, and etc etc. But in the end the car is a just a tool, too. It takes you from point A to point B. Hybrids will be replacing gasoline engines - which is 'better'? Depends on what you're comparing. Paddle shifters will be replacing manuals. Which is better?

I know I "like" manual shifters over paddles. I know for a long time they were faster than electronic paddle shifters. I know today paddle shifters shift faster than a human can, and smoother. What do I have left in my defense? Nothing but the simple "like". I "like" manuals over paddles. I can no longer justify it on objective grounds. Or cost. Or maintenance. It does the job and i like it. Its not "the best", but that doesnt make me a looney either.

There's a lot of middle ground between "best" and "like". I think most people live in that middle ground. I think most people can probably find both domes and mechanicals that work well enough for them, without artificially forcing an (unsustainable) 'either/or' onto it.

"Blah blah blah grade school blah blah blah IBM PS/2s blah blah blah I like Model Ms." -- Kishy

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Offline wellington1869

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« Reply #39 on: Fri, 09 April 2010, 17:16:11 »
Quote from: ch_123;171027

Lifetime ratings from manufacturers. Rubber domes? 1 million? 2 million? 4 million? Some are 10 million... Mechanical switches start at 20 and go well up from there

keytronic claims 30 million.

there's also the replacement-cost factor, as came up in that "persuasive presentation" thread a few days ago. cheap enough to toss it and get an identical new one for another 10 million.

There's also this: do you really need a keyboard that lasts 82 years?  10 million is basically a lifetime, or an incredibly long time.
« Last Edit: Fri, 09 April 2010, 17:22:59 by wellington1869 »

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Offline Voixdelion

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« Reply #40 on: Fri, 09 April 2010, 17:16:42 »
Quote from: ch_123;171007
That depends on whether the person has tried a representative sample of the options available to him or her. If someone actually feels that a rubber dome keyboard is better than a mechanical one after trying a number of mechanicals, then fair enough. I just doubt you're going to find many people like that.

Other than that, you get into "That's good enough for me" syndrome, which is something I despise in people. It's rather annoying when helping people with, for example, computer issues, and you recommend them an alternative software package or piece of hardware that would make their lives a whole lot easier, but they cling on to what they are used to like a child to it's blanket. Of couse, you see it with non computer related things, and it's just as annoying. I think people should always have an open mind and be willing to shop around within limits of reason.

Yes- Its akin to saying 2+2=4 is true and that is all I need to know while refusing to listen to you explain that 3+1=4 as well.

and what in all the world is a "paddle shifter"?
« Last Edit: Fri, 09 April 2010, 17:20:37 by Voixdelion »
"The more you tolerate each other, the less enforcement will happen."-iMav

Offline ch_123

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« Reply #41 on: Fri, 09 April 2010, 17:31:55 »
Quote from: wellington1869;171029
This forum itself is a monument to the level of headache that a mechanical board can produce.  Not saying domes are  better; AM saying it really actually is hard to make any objective case for 'betterness' with mechanicals in any broad way.

The problem with gauging the state of things by a forum like this is that if someone has a problem with a mechanical keyboard, they'll google around and come here. What about all the people who buy their Filco, Unicomp or whatever and are perfectly content with it and don't feel the need to seek out a place like this to vociferate their satisfaction with it? The same problem applies to negative reviews on places like Amazon.

Contrariwise, the average computer user will send back a dodgy rubber dome keyboard if it doesn't work out of the box, and toss in in the trash when it stops functioning. They'd show the same regard for it as a microwave oven. People tend to care more when expensive things screw up.

Quote
I do think this is a situation where taste and likes/dislikes plays a huge role. I think this is a case where it plays a legitimate role, too. Everyone types differently.

The other day I ended up (through no fault of my own) in the middle of an argument started by a Mac lover who was quite seriously angry that the rest of us didn't approve of the iPad. Quite serious arguments were raised as to why the iPad wasn't all that it was cracked up to be, and all were shot down on the basis that "people have different needs". To which I eventually remarked to the other people "Yeah, maybe someone actually just wants a €500 calculator."

The moral of the story - some things are just inferior to certain other things. Saying that some things deserve to be given proper consideration just because they exist without quantifying why this is the case adds nothing to the discussion.

« Last Edit: Fri, 09 April 2010, 17:37:05 by ch_123 »

Offline wellington1869

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« Reply #42 on: Fri, 09 April 2010, 17:37:34 »
Quote from: ch_123;171036

The moral of the story - some things are just inferior to certain other things.


I think that may be true in some contexts, and not in others... trying to say that an objective heirarchy can be applied as a 'rule' in all things everywhere, is just as unhelpful to a discussion, isnt it?

I'm not saying there are no rules. If you want to compare which is the fastest production car at the moment, an objective test can be devised. But who wants to be the first one to create an "objective" test for which car feels best to drive around town? And then defend the results? You could make broad statements about features, but I doubt  you could devise a defensible objective test for that.

"Blah blah blah grade school blah blah blah IBM PS/2s blah blah blah I like Model Ms." -- Kishy

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Offline ch_123

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« Reply #43 on: Fri, 09 April 2010, 17:52:28 »
Really what I'm saying here is - if cost wasn't an issue would rubber domes be as popular? If we did a blindfold test with a Keytronic, a Topre, a Cherry/buckling spring/whatever, how many would really go for the Keytronic?

Definitely I can appreciate that people don't always want to go for the best keyboard. Maybe they don't have the money. Maybe they do but want to spend the money on other things. Perhaps they quantify the quality of their keyboard based on other features like backlighting, macro keys, "ERGONOMICS", tactical nuclear weaponry or whatever. But if we talk about this purely in terms of the action of the keyboard, I seriously doubt (and again, I say this as someone who doesn't suffer mental anguish when confronted with rubber dome keyboards) you're going to find many people who wouldn't find one or more designs of mechanical switch to be superior to the rubber dome. Longevity? Unicomp. And those cherry Filcos aren't half bad either.

And whoever talked about ergonomics earlier - the idea that mechanical keyboards are inherently more ergonomic than rubber domes is definitely off.

Offline Voixdelion

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« Reply #44 on: Fri, 09 April 2010, 17:55:26 »
And despite all the faith we put in what we know to be true ...  in the end when all is said and done it STILL boils down the same way no matter what:  Forums are exactly that.  A forum.  An arena for airing and discussing different points of view.  All we have even in all the accumulated wisdom within this and other forums is really simply a collection of opinions. Even if a majority is favoring the same ones, fact is fact and opinion is opinion.  We cannot redraw the definition of the words  even by supporting an assertion about better or right or lame or whathaveyou.    

favorite line from Men in Black- one of the most profound movies I ever saw:

"Think of what you will know tomorrow..."
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Offline wellington1869

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« Reply #45 on: Fri, 09 April 2010, 18:07:09 »
Quote from: ch_123;171049
Really what I'm saying here is - if cost wasn't an issue would rubber domes be as popular? If we did a blindfold test with a Keytronic, a Topre, a Cherry/buckling spring/whatever, how many would really go for the Keytronic?



i think thats a fair question. I dont know the answer, though like you I'd imagine mechanicals would do well in such a contest.  I dont think it would be a total rout or anything though.

Someone should do some market research cuz i'd be interested in the results. (If mechanical switch companies got off their lazy asses, they'd fund that kind of market research)

I've given mechanicals to friends and relatives to try (back in the days when I was an enthusiastic pusher) and i've definitely had some of them (most?) eventually go back to a logitech. They initially find the noise and tactility "neat" and for many of them later on it was all too much sensory overload, they went back to a keyboard that reminded them of their laptops; they're used to it, they can type fast on it, they dont have any real issues with it, they can use it in a library.

what do you say to them at that point? without fetishizing some aspect of the board that they dont particularly care about? 20 million strokes? They'll say "great!" and keep their logitech. Do they really need a board that lasts a half century? Not really. Ergonomics? Just a solution to a problem they dont feel they have. etc.  In the end its always come down to like or not like.

I've also had friends who tried it, got hooked, and never went back to a dome board. Those are the ones that liked it. They might retroactively come up with specs and reasons for it, but like otter said, the first and most crucial thing is they like the experience aesthetically.
« Last Edit: Fri, 09 April 2010, 18:17:20 by wellington1869 »

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Offline wellington1869

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« Reply #46 on: Fri, 09 April 2010, 18:12:55 »
Quote from: ripster;171059
I don't think my wife and kid choose to use a Unicomp Buckling Spring Space Saver because of aesthetics.  They didn't even complain about the logo.


by "aesthetically" i didnt just mean looks, but also sound and feel. Some aspect of the sensory effect on them, is what they liked.

"Blah blah blah grade school blah blah blah IBM PS/2s blah blah blah I like Model Ms." -- Kishy

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Offline skcheng

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« Reply #47 on: Fri, 09 April 2010, 18:17:03 »
Quote from: ripster;171059
I don't think my wife and kid choose to use a Unicomp Buckling Spring Space Saver because of aesthetics.  They didn't even complain about the logo.


I can't get over how ugly that logo is??   Anyone out there want a LNIB Unicomp Spacesaver.   Typed on for all of 10 minutes??

Offline wellington1869

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« Reply #48 on: Fri, 09 April 2010, 18:21:47 »
I can definitely make a case that feedback from the keys (tactile or auditory) makes for more accurate typing; maybe there are typist studies out there that can back this up with some data too. Its definitely the case for me personally in my own typing tests.

Thats the broad case I could make for higher quality keyboards that include such feedback features. But beyond that its hard to quantify. For instance, "how much feedback is enough?". That depends on a lot of things. Sometimes better dome boards do give me 'enough' to keep my typing accuracy quite high. Sometimes mechanicals give me too much and its distracting (northgates, anyone?).  But in between those extremes is a pretty wide space in which I can usually insert all kinds of other considerations and still be okay with the typing part.

Also humans arent robots; we adapt really well to our tools.
« Last Edit: Fri, 09 April 2010, 18:24:47 by wellington1869 »

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Offline Otterclock

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« Reply #49 on: Fri, 09 April 2010, 19:15:41 »
Quote
Lifetime ratings from manufacturers.


I'm suspect that they are similar to contrast ratios for monitors, or in the very least based on ideal situation tests involving the switch independent of a board and then guestimated. How many switches did they really click 50 million times to get that average? Who is really going to keep track and hold them to that? "Dear Cherry, I am sending back my G80-3000HPLDUÑLSYH because one of the switches failed after 47,875,342 strokes."

I agree about Keytronic lifetime warranty. Most likely it's like all-you-can-eat spaghetti: few people are gonna take real advantage of it. That said, they at least need to have some confidence that their keyboard isn't gonna bust in a year. I have a Keytronic box; I should go read the fine print.

I think there are a lot of people who use rubber dome boards who don't know what they're missing, and would fall in love with mechanicals. I also think it's possible to enjoy the typing experience of rubber domes, and differentiate between ones of varying quality. People who hate beer think it all tastes the same.

 
Quote
its like if you compare automobiles. You can say one is faster than another, but if that were the only criteria, anyone who doesnt own a bugatti is to be considered an idiot?


There's no difference. They're all crappy rubber tire vehicles.
ABS M1|IBM Model M|Lite-On 1788|Cherry G83 6744LUAUS| Logitech S510| Scorpius M10| Cherry 11900.