MsErgo4k+CherryBn+TenKeyLess+G15+FootSwith+Abs plastic fab+TEkeyStaggering

[Lanx]

I've been wondering this too.  I have an Ergo 4k (unopened) in my closet waiting for this kind of mod, when I can find some cherry blues cheap.  But I also wonder - after this amount of work, would it be better to just go with a custom-made case?  Machined metal for the base, thick fiberglass layup for the top maybe?  I know that's more work, but it really does appear that there's not much left of the original keyboard.  I'm curious, since I plan on doing this same thing someday.

If you notice the ergo 4k has a 15 degree incline which is why it feels so "natural" meaning that the two "splits" curve toward the center. Look at the ergo 4k at eye level from the wrist wrest to the function keys and you will see that there is a slope in the middle and you can see how difficult it has been trying to preserve that slope, it takes like 5 well placed screws for each half to replicate that curve.

[jumpfroggy]

If you notice the ergo 4k has a 15 degree incline which is why it feels so "natural" meaning that the two "splits" curve toward the center. Look at the ergo 4k at eye level from the wrist wrest to the function keys and you will see that there is a slope in the middle and you can see how difficult it has been trying to preserve that slope, it takes like 5 well placed screws for each half to replicate that curve.

 
Yeah, I know that about the ergo.  I used to have one way back for a few days, and it has the most amazing feel for a standard(ish) layout ergo keyboard.  I've used the old MS "natural" ergo (PS2 version?), but that was just a slightly tilted split board.  The ergo 4k just felt amazing, and I could feel how much easier the layout was on my fingers.  However, the absolutely horrid keys made me return it within just a couple days.  However, after thinking about it for a long while I've bought another ergo 4k as a test bed for a mechanical switch makeover.

I was just curious like the other poster - after conversion, it seems like there's not much left of the ergo.  "He's more machine now than man."  At any rate, I'll probably attempt the same thing as you if I can find a cheap source of cherry blue switches.  Until then, the ergo stays in the closet.

[Lanx]

isn't that why i've seen so many posts for "mechanical ms ergo 4k???" is because the "structure" or the "body" of the ms ergo 4k is why it's so good for ergonomics? I'll list them as to why i believe the msergo4k is so good.

1. split keyboard
2. negative tilt
3. inward slope
4. correctly molded wrist wrest

really all i've done is take out the crappy rubber domes and put in mech keys, and it performs like how one would expect of a ms ergo 4k with cherry browns, like a dream.
i've gone further and made it tenkeyless cuz it does feel better on my shoulders and changed the keycaps around to give it a "concave" kinesis feel.

this is of course the unfinished mod, i just do not have the time to complete it, but i'm currently using my first cherry modded ergo 4k, that is EXTREMELY ugly but performs beyond expectations. (and does not have a matrix layout).

[sordna]

3. inward slope

 
Don't you mean outward slope? The 2 halves of the keyboard are rotated outward.

Anyway, I like the mod! I'm a big fan of the matrix layout, using it for years. All keyboards should come with it!
Have you tried the Maltron / Kinesis style keyboards for comparison?

[Lanx]

that's the slope i'm talking about.

[sordna]

I would call it an outward slope. If you put a tennis ball on the slope, it will roll outward, away from the keyboard. Anyway, let's just call it a slope :-)
So, have you compared your modded keyboard to a Kinesis or Maltron ? Which do you find more comfortable ?

[Lanx]

no i've never used a kinesis, because i was not interested in "changing my habbits" while it'd be interesting for me to try, preserving my muscle memory was more important and less time consuming in my mind (i've used the ergo 4k for 6 years?)

[jumpfroggy]

no i've never used a kinesis, because i was not interested in "changing my habbits" while it'd be interesting for me to try, preserving my muscle memory was more important and less time consuming in my mind (i've used the ergo 4k for 6 years?)

 Same here.  I know deep down that I could probably be more efficient w/ a kinesis.  But I also know that it'd take a long time to get used to (and get back up to speed), and after that I'd only be fastest/comfortable on a kinesis, which would make typing on my laptop even less enjoyable.  I *hate* when keyboards have non-iso layouts, like when the enter key is double sized and the backslash goes to the right of a now-tiny right shift key.  That really messes me up.  So going to a kinesis is not an option for me either.

So I'm stuck in a strange place - I really want an ergo board, and I find the ergo4k more comfortable.  At the same time, I need a dead-standard layout w/o any nonsense (like those stupid "extra large delete key" type mods).  The ergo4k seems to be one of the only ergo boards that maintains a standard layout.  Very strange requirements, I know.

@Lanx - you've used the ergo4k for 6+ years?  How do you like the modded versions?  Which one do you like better? (standard or grid layout)?  Where'd you get all the donor switches?

[sordna]

I *hate* when keyboards have non-iso layouts, like when the enter key is double sized and the backslash goes to the right of a now-tiny right shift key.  That really messes me up.

Hold on. The ISO layouts are the ones with the large enter key and the backlsash to the right of the tiny *left* shift key. I think you ment to say you DO like non-iso (ie ANSI) layouts.

So going to a kinesis is not an option for me either.

I have solved the muscle memory issue accidentally: I learned Dvorak on the Kinesis, but never bothered with it on flat keyboards / laptops. This helps me switch from Dvorak to QWERTY very easily (by switching keyboards) and works the other way around too, when I think QWERTY, I am expecting a standard ANSI layout.
It's hard for me to type Dorak on a standard keyboard, and even harder to type QWERTY on the Kinesis!
So I'm dealing with 2 very distinct, very different layouts, and there is no chance of confusion!

[jumpfroggy]

Hold on. The ISO layouts are the ones with the large enter key and the backlsash to the right of the tiny *left* shift key. I think you ment to say you DO like non-iso (ie ANSI) layouts.

Is that ANSI?  I know euro (aka ISO) boards have the inverted large T-shaped enter.  Are the large J-shaped enter keys also ISO?  Whatever that is...

I have solved the muscle memory issue accidentally: I learned Dvorak on the Kinesis, but never bothered with it on flat keyboards / laptops. This helps me switch from Dvorak to QWERTY very easily (by switching keyboards) and works the other way around too, when I think QWERTY, I am expecting a standard ANSI layout.
It's hard for me to type Dorak on a standard keyboard, and even harder to type QWERTY on the Kinesis!
So I'm dealing with 2 very distinct, very different layouts, and there is no chance of confusion!

Hmm.  Nope.

[Lanx]

@Lanx - you've used the ergo4k for 6+ years?  How do you like the modded versions?  Which one do you like better? (standard or grid layout)?  Where'd you get all the donor switches?

my grid/matrix is still not fully modded, i think if i want to finish it, i'm going to have to scrape a few features (it was very ambitious) but "testing" the grid it sorta just feels the same as standard stagger i guess (of course i really couldn't say for sure)
from using the ergo4k since 05/06? to the modded cherry, the cherries are of course a dream, the regular ergo4k (i have a ergo4k in the closet, which means i have had 3 this year and like 6 total cuz they break so easily with a drop of water) (and since modded 2 of them i gave that one to a friend cuz his "a" "d" was busted) and testing the rubbers dome on that was DISGUSTING, since i go over to the house to "fix" his computer once in a while.
all the donor switches i got from scouring ebay, i forgot which model (it's in the first page) i think cherry 8000 or something but they were basically browns that had a bad circuit board, one was brand new, the other barely seemed used. Condition of the board didn't really matter to me, in fact if a few keys felt more "used" than other keys then i'd just swap them out for newer keys (i.e. function keys or whatever weren't used much), the cherry boards i went for had to be brown and was like 120key model.

*edit*
checked it and it was the cherry g80-8200, a really UGLY keyboard and really badly made in terms of casing, it feels like a childs toy, but i only wanted it for the switches and circuit boards anyway.

[dotancohen]

Show Image

that's the slope i'm talking about.

That's an outward slope for those who go with the flow, and an inward slope for those who go against the flow. To which group would you say a guy who mods his MS Ergo 4000 with Cherry Browns belongs?

[Lanx]

i call it an inward slope, especially since i've opened and modded the inside so much, everything to me is geared towards moving in, with all the parts necessary (it's pretty nicely put together to obtain this inward slope). So from a modder's perspective, it's an inward slope, if by chance you want to drizzle water on it, then yea it goes outward, but that just doesn't make sense.

[JustCallMeCrash]

That's like saying it's an upward or downward slope... either way is correct, depending on your point of view.  I used the MS Natural boards exclusively for at least 15 years... I've been through maybe half a dozen, even got my wife hooked on them.  I'm using standard boards now just because that's what's available with a mech switch.  I would LOVE to try to tackle this mod, but I'm fairly skittish when it comes to cutting PCB... guess I just don't feel very confident in my knowledge re: circuit boards in general.  

All that said, WAY impressed.  You've got some serious chutzpah.  All I've managed to do is swap some springs and dye some keys.  

Also feeling inspired to dig out a busted Natural and try my hand...  I have a G80-8200LPBUS sitting naked in the closet (harvested a couple switches) that I could chop up without remorse.

[Lanx]

the g80-8200 is the same series that i chopped-up for the mod, again if you just want to have a ms ergo4k, no frills, it can easily be done, this took longer than usually cuz of the matrix layout, it really, really took a lot of time, planning and remolding.

you could go for the first mod i did
http://geekhack.org/showwiki.php?title=Island:10510
where all it was, really just splitting up the board down the middle (sort to speak) and just fitting it in the molds. this is the current one i use now.

[JustCallMeCrash]

Dammit, Lanx... now you have me wanting to break out the solder-sucker.  I think it would be pretty rad to try to get the keys at the same offsets as the Natural... it would be a lot of work, though.
I'm way too lazy for this crap.  Why won't MS just make us a Cherry board!?  I'm sure we'd be willing to pay for it.

[dotancohen]

Why won't MS just make us a Cherry board!?  I'm sure we'd be willing to pay for it.

Tell them that:
http://technet.microsoft.com/en-us/cc512759
http://connect.microsoft.com/

[Lanx]

Dammit, Lanx... now you have me wanting to break out the solder-sucker.  I think it would be pretty rad to try to get the keys at the same offsets as the Natural... it would be a lot of work, though.
I'm way too lazy for this crap.  Why won't MS just make us a Cherry board!?  I'm sure we'd be willing to pay for it.

well i didn't use a de-solder sucker for the first ugly board i made, as i said i just basically cut out out the board from the 8200 with a dremel and dremel'd out the electrical traces from the board.

tenkeyless makes the board ugly, since there's a big exposed right side, but there's also less switches to solder lol (i did have the keyboard section already prep'd and ready to go until i sort trying out my board without the numpad and just decided to hack it off).

remember it's also not about the dremeling and plastic cutting out and remolding, you also have to find a suitable way to make it work, the current msergo 4k controller has like so varnish on the contacts that i couldn't figure out how to solder or connect wires to so i had to use an old school logitech keyboard i had lying around (the controller board had exposed pins), i'm sure a teensy board would work well as well, lots of GH'rs have used that controller. (i was just repurposing keyboards i had lying around).

[dotancohen]

remember it's also not about the dremeling and plastic cutting out and remolding, you also have to find a suitable way to make it work, the current msergo 4k controller has like so varnish on the contacts that i couldn't figure out how to solder or connect wires to so i had to use an old school logitech keyboard i had lying around (the controller board had exposed pins), i'm sure a teensy board would work well as well, lots of GH'rs have used that controller. (i was just repurposing keyboards i had lying around).

http://geekhack.org/showthread.php?21081-How-to-solder-onto-membrane-pads

[Lanx]

getting back to it, gonna do the thumbs now after months of pondering what to do with the spacebar section, it only took having a kinesis for 2 weeks for me to decide that the thumbs are great. Of course kinesis can be improved and with with my special "flip the keycaps around" thing, it feels better, gonna do this


to match my kinesis i currently have


you'll notice that i cut a numpad "zero" in half, i had to use the exacto, cuz as anyone knows, using a dremel would produce too much shredded plastic even with a diamond wheel, i used the signature plastics keycaps cuz well they were really thin lol, the stock cherry keycaps are thick. then i sanded back down the spacebar pcb and spray painted it, waiting for it to dry now.

[Lanx]

the final layout for the spacebar, yea bad phone pic, the woman has the camera for the week, gotta make hold down screws, drill out holes in the frame/plastic a (for wires)
so now i gotta wait on my 30awg wire to come in, nuttin else to do for now. (have no idea what the middle button will do, it's just there)

[JustCallMeCrash]

I am horrifically jealous.  This looks phenomenal.  Can't wait to see it finished and cleaned up.

[JBert]

Is there no switch under the Alt key or did you mount it that low for a purpose?

[Lanx]

low vertical or low as in depth? ctrl/win/alt stagger down i guess i just liked the way it looked and depth, because well the other keys are just raised on that stop that by the time they meet in the middle it's really high.

[dotancohen]

low vertical or low as in depth? ctrl/win/alt stagger down i guess i just liked the way it looked and depth, because well the other keys are just raised on that stop that by the time they meet in the middle it's really high.

 
Low as in distance from the table surface. I had the same question, then I noticed that the Menu key on the other side is symmetrically low as well.

Nice work! It looks like you have a bit less tenting than the original 4000 keyboard. Is that intentional?

[Lanx]

tenting? nothing is really intended i guess, i just did what i did with my v1 mod but only nicer and neater everything else was just to really "fit" cherry keys into the housing of the ergo 4k. is it intentional that the ctrl/win/alt keys are lower/less depth than the spacebar keys? nope that's just how the board worked out basically, i just did what i could to fit and basically mold my way around what i got. i'll take more pics for ppl, but be warned... crappy phone camera

[Lanx]

tenting? and here is what i call depth and the lowest and higest levels



side view with depth



i don't know if i want to fill in the yellow spots with the original ms ergo 4k buttons and make them
1. blank
2. give them function... i.e. from the g15 such as macro bank 1/2/3 and such

fill it in with putty.

the circles in purple have no buttons assigned to them, i just found space to install them but i have no idea what they'll do, if i'll even use them, probably best to just put them as macro 1-6 on the g15 and i can just program them to have functions.

[keyboardlover]

One of the coolest mods I've ever seen on GH. Great work Lanx!

[Lanx]

yea i wanna get this keyboard as complete as i can that really does mean using the g15 tho, i still don't even know where the g15 is gonna go and be displayed... but i just wanna get it over with since i've finally found time, the good thing is with the new thumb mods, it won't be much different than the kinesis i'm currently using, except there's no funky kinesis weird key layout, i'm torn between using this new mod or just sticking with the kinesis, my v1 mod is already shelved, the kinesis layout/matrix keywells proved too great. actually i should use the keycaps from my v1 on my v2, they look rather weird being so mixed.

[Lanx]

got around to organizing the controller connections


now i just need to slip the connection onto the controller instead of using the weird euro style terminators (i lost that pic, dunno why i'm using cell pics) once this is all organized i'll be able to connect the board neatly.

good thing i kept good notes i'm even looking through this thread to find out and remember what the heck the connections were on the g15 heh.

[spzz]

really really really nice mod Lanx, great job

[Lanx]

ugh my wires are getting all messed up,... i think i'm going to resolder and rewire the whole board... that's gonna hurt. and i think i'll be drilling the plastic more so i can "get in" there

[Lanx]

ok back on track... i desoldered everything and redid it all, seems i had to anyway i had 1 miss-read connection and that just screwed up everything, i also then made the plastic holes wider so it was easier for me to solder and i didn't have to become a contoursonist to get to a solder joint, i'm about to make the final connections now to the controller and then we'll see if all the keys work. i figure there's no need for pics really. oh i did hotglue connections on the controller board to make sure those wires stay in place, that's really all the changes so far.

[Lanx]

here are the quick disconnect wire things, i'm a gonna use, someone please reply with the correct term for these lol


mocked up so far


currently i've de-soldered and resoldered the whole board, but it looks the same, pics are kinda old



the white european connecters (that's what radio shack calls em) are just temporary for testing, in the end i'm just gonna solder the final connecting wires to that quick disconnect, but you know, always gonna test to make sure.

[Lanx]

i'm getting scan code errors, sigh fully wired, so i must have a cross connection somewhere, gonna give it a few days (so i can cool my head) and wait a bit.

[simon_C]

some of those are probably from drilling randomly into a circuit boards with traces on it. you probably crossed a few connections using the traces on the board.

[Lanx]

all my circuit board traces are cut/scrapped off, connects are done all through wires. pcb is just there to literally hold the switch in place.

[Lanx]

good lord, now i'm testing each switch individually, i think i like the fabricating portion much more...

[JustCallMeCrash]

good lord, now i'm testing each switch individually, i think i like the fabricating portion much more...

The devil is in the details.

[Lanx]

g15 controller is getting all wonky on me... i think i might have to replace it, oh this isn't... optimal.

[JustCallMeCrash]

How is this going?

[purple_haze]

dude if this works..that would be straight BA.. I suck at soldering, but if yours works. I might try something like that.

[kaen]

This is absolutely fascinating. I look forward to seeing the end result.

[Eggit]

I registered here just to say that you are truly amazing. You are building my dream keyboard, keep up the good work.

[Lanx]

long story short, my g15 matrix blew, so to finish it off i just put in an extra model m controller and redid the matrix' again, sadly i won't have time to finish the "asthetics" but it works w/o the g15 part. I've gotten really used to just a regular kinesis tho, so this v2 mod is also stowed away with my v1 mod as a backup keyboard, it's a shame tho, i really miss the the slope/incline/slant and better wrist rest of the v2 mod vs the kinesis, maybe once i get over my kinesis keywell fascination i'll revisit the v2 mod.

[JustCallMeCrash]

A travesty, truly.

[Lanx]

the word i was looking for was kinesis keywell bias.

[FinancialWar]

amazing, just amazing.

[Pyrolistical]

Looks like my dream keyboard, except messier =P

[Henry Allen Venture]

Jesus, this is amazing. Good luck with getting it finished off.
I hope the end result is worth it for you.