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geekhack Projects => Making Stuff Together! => Topic started by: lowpoly on Thu, 11 December 2008, 17:40:42

Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: lowpoly on Thu, 11 December 2008, 17:40:42
I finally finished my mini keyboard after I don't know how many weeks. For those of you who didn't see the 'teaser' pics i posted in the pics thread: I wanted a keyboard where I never had to leave the home row. I started with a clicky Cherry G80-3000LSCEU/2 and removed the alpha part with a Dremel. Then I added a Trackpoint from an old IBM keyboard. And a new USB hub. Basically.

I think I did almost everything twice because it wouldn't work on first try or I wasn't happy. For ex. I had to paint the case twice. First it fell down from 3 ft high after finishing 6 layers of paint. Which I could repair. Then I glued the rubber pads to the bottom exactly like the guy in the rubber store told me. Unfortunately the glue dissolved the paint at the edges. So I had to sand it all down and start over. I almost trashed the project that evening.

Enough whining, on with the pics. The surface I took the pics on is a light gray so color is a bit off:

(http://www.frs635.com/keyboard/miniguru/01-mini-with-cable.jpg)

The space bar level bracket/wire usually is at the front. I had to relocate it to the rear for the case to fit:

(http://www.frs635.com/keyboard/miniguru/02-spacebar-removed.jpg)

Inner case with isolation layer and hub:

(http://www.frs635.com/keyboard/miniguru/03-case-inner.jpg)

Second time I used clear double-sided adhesive tape to glue the feet. I went for large area feet because I want to use this on my laptop and small feet always interfere with the laptop keys. Also, it looks cool. Should have taken black screws but you can't have everything:

(http://www.frs635.com/keyboard/miniguru/04-case-bottom.jpg)

Cardboard templates so the case could be as small as possible (done twice, of course):

(http://www.frs635.com/keyboard/miniguru/05-cardboard-templates.jpg)

Mouse buttons will work when the space bar is pressed:

(http://www.frs635.com/keyboard/miniguru/06-front.jpg)

Function keys for second key layer are left and right of the space bar. I sanded the Windows logo away and added my own logo which is supposed to be the letter 'G' making a whirl. It's better on the case bottom. When the function key is pressed only the assigned function keys will work, not the normal keys. Fn + space does backspace:

(http://www.frs635.com/keyboard/miniguru/07-top.jpg)

The keyboard should look as if it was floating:

(http://www.frs635.com/keyboard/miniguru/08-front-floating.jpg)

Case was done from a sheet of Aluminum:

(http://www.frs635.com/keyboard/miniguru/09-rear-floating.jpg)

The Trackpoint uses ps/2 so I had to add a ps/2 to usb converter to feed the Trackpoint into the USB hub:

(http://www.frs635.com/keyboard/miniguru/10-side.jpg)

Two USB connectors and mini USB connection to the computer. Optional power supply for the additional USB connectors. The hub came with it and I decided to keep it:

(http://www.frs635.com/keyboard/miniguru/11-rear.jpg)

It fits into the hole that is left in the G80 donor.

(http://www.frs635.com/keyboard/miniguru/12-rear-floating.jpg)

Also, it works. And it fits into the front pouch of the HHKB case.

Edit: pics with the keyboard on a Thinkpad on page 8 (http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=4917.210).

Edit: 3d mock-ups on page 10 (http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=4917.270). Example:

(http://www.frs635.com/keyboard/miniguru/mockup06.jpg)

Edit: Final 2nd layer on page 11 (http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=4917.300).

Edit: White keycaps on page 12 (http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=4917.330). Example:

(http://www.frs635.com/keyboard/miniguru/01_white_keys.jpg)

Edit: mass production has been canceled but there should be a limited production run or a kit. Starts on page 21 (http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=4917.600).

Edit: Blank keycaps pic on page 24 (http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=4917.690):

(http://www.guru-board.com/pics/miniguru_blank.jpg)

Edit 2014/03/18: Several pics and links repaired.

Edit: new pointing stick stuff on page 30 (http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=4917.870).
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: bhtooefr on Thu, 11 December 2008, 17:52:01
Wow.

I like.

DIY HHKB+TrackPoint. Clever.
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: xsphat on Thu, 11 December 2008, 17:57:06
That is the coolest mod I have ever seen, holy crap!

If you start making them, I want one first..
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: xsphat on Thu, 11 December 2008, 17:58:50
What do you call it?
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: bigpook on Thu, 11 December 2008, 18:02:01
Nice, job well done : )
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: Chloe on Thu, 11 December 2008, 18:04:37
Wow, really impressive work!
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: lowpoly on Thu, 11 December 2008, 18:09:37
Thanks for the comments.

Quote from: xsphat;14304
What do you call it?


I had a name for a long time. But when I did a last minute google before I printed the bottom label I found that a very similar name was used by a computer manufacturer already. I probably could still use it in Germany but didn't want to register the domains without being sure. So the name is postponed, only by a few days hopefully. For now it's just 'mini' which was the working title. I also registered type-in-style.com which was supposed to be the slogan.
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: zwmalone on Thu, 11 December 2008, 18:19:03
That is the most awesome thing I have ever seen.  I want one.  The form factor and trackpoint are perfect.  Excellent finish, very polished.  Nicely done.
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: Chloe on Thu, 11 December 2008, 18:20:18
How do the switches sound in comparison to being in a plastic case? There's something about the way it looks, I really want to try typing on it. :)
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: D-EJ915 on Thu, 11 December 2008, 18:25:17
and that would be like $1000 if it were sold on the market.  VERY Nice work, excellent job.
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: lowpoly on Thu, 11 December 2008, 18:29:24
Quote from: Chloe;14309
How do the switches sound in comparison to being in a plastic case?
Much quieter, the plastic case has a lot more resonance during the click and especially when bottoming out.
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: bhtooefr on Thu, 11 December 2008, 18:40:07
It's a shame the donor TrackPoint wasn't a three-button.

(Although, you could wire a third button that activates both left and right at the same time, although it might not fit...)
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: lowpoly on Thu, 11 December 2008, 18:51:36
I'm not going to saw another hole into the case. :D I know I'd ruin the paint.

I still have one control key too many as caps lock is control too. I can use Autohotkey to remap one of them to the middle mouse button.

Not sure if I split the control keys that way already. But re-programming the layout is a matter of minutes.
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: lam47 on Thu, 11 December 2008, 18:54:30
very nice handy work!!
Its very clean and has taken some serious though to get just right.
You did well not to burn and drown it when it fell on the floor.
Amazing stuff.

Oh and can I say the aluminium work is superb. I'm crap with metals :)

I have been working on some designs for an exotic wood keyboard.
I make joysticks from the stuff why not keyboards.
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: secularzarathustra on Thu, 11 December 2008, 18:56:17
wow, what an amazing job...when do you go into production?

:)
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: bigpook on Thu, 11 December 2008, 19:04:15
Quote from: secularzarathustra;14315
wow, what an amazing job...when do you go into production?

:)


You do plan on mass producing these, right? : )
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: bhtooefr on Thu, 11 December 2008, 19:05:12
New suggestion for caps lock... can you make it a num lock? (Actually, I'm thinking something like a multi-layered numlock. Have it simulate a numpad's editing block with it on, maybe, and the Fn (or swirly-G) key to get an actual numpad with it on or off?)

And, I think I know what the Menu button can be used for... middle mouse. ;)

(I haven't tried blue Cherries, but if I like them, I... want one of these. Never thought I'd be saying that about a spacesaver.)
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: lowpoly on Thu, 11 December 2008, 19:10:54
Thanks. :)

Quote from: secularzarathustra;14315
wow, what an amazing job...when do you go into production?

:)

:) Currently, it's more about 'if' than 'when'. This is not production ready yet.

Quote from: lam47;14314
very nice handy work!!
Its very clean and has taken some serious though to get just right.
You did well not to burn and drown it when it fell on the floor.
Amazing stuff.

Oh and can I say the aluminium work is superb. I'm crap with metals :)

I have been working on some designs for an exotic wood keyboard.
I make joysticks from the stuff why not keyboards.

Did you post these?
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: lowpoly on Thu, 11 December 2008, 19:28:28
Quote from: bigpook;14316
You do plan on mass producing these, right? : )

I'd like to. It's a big step though.

Quote from: bhtooefr;14317
New suggestion for caps lock... can you make it a num lock? (Actually, I'm thinking something like a multi-layered numlock. Have it simulate a numpad's editing block with it on, maybe, and the Fn (or swirly-G) key to get an actual numpad with it on or off?)

I can put Num Lock on it but there are no numpad keys on the board right now. The controller doesn't support this I think. You have to program internal key codes not characters. I could put a numpad on layer 2 in the zxc/asd/qwe area. But you'd have to press Fn all the time. Or use one of those double action switches for caps lock. To switch Fn on an off. I can put more than one keycode on a key though. Like writing words with a single key.

Quote from: bhtooefr;14317
And, I think I know what the Menu button can be used for... middle mouse. ;)

Currently I use it as windows key because I use win+E quite often. The controller can't simulate mouse clicks. With Autohotkey no problem.

Quote from: bhtooefr;14317
(I haven't tried blue Cherries, but if I like them, I... want one of these. Never thought I'd be saying that about a spacesaver.)

:D
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: bhtooefr on Thu, 11 December 2008, 20:20:11
True, I Win-D a lot.

I'm thinking my optimal layout for that four-key group on the right would be something like...

[Scroll] [Right Fn] [Windows] [Right Alt]

(I do need the right Alt key for stuff, so...)

I really should draw my optimal layouts... how many Fn-style modifiers does that controller support?
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: iMav on Thu, 11 December 2008, 20:39:47
Blue cherries, trackpoint, and a small form factor.  That.  is.  AWESOME!

I'm fairly ignorant when it comes to the logistics regarding what it would take to produce production keyboards...but for what it's worth, you have the full support of geekhack.  If we can be of assistance, just let me know.  (we need a go to keyboard here)  :)
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: bhtooefr on Thu, 11 December 2008, 20:59:14
Of course, it looks like it's another 10 years before the patents on the TrackPoint IV run out, so we won't be able to get third-party TrackPoint boards without some cloning going on.

But, Alps does make their own design... it's not as good as a genuine TrackPoint IV, but it's better than the Unicomp design...

(I'm thinking of this from a production standpoint. Buying TrackPoint IV keyboards to rip them apart to integrate the pointing stick = wasteful.)
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: wellington1869 on Thu, 11 December 2008, 21:25:01
Quote from: lowpoly;14319
I'd like to. It's a big step though.



all I can say is if the guy who launched metadot could do it on a whim with no previous manufacturing experience, then I think any of us can. Just a matter of getting the funders together with the lawyers :)
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: bhtooefr on Thu, 11 December 2008, 21:30:11
Of course, if we're designing our own low volume custom keyboard design, there'll be room for whatever keyswitches we want, except for possibly buckling spring, but possibly including Topre capacitive, in the design.

Time for a poll.
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: wellington1869 on Thu, 11 December 2008, 21:34:11
Quote from: bhtooefr;14331
Of course, if we're designing our own low volume custom keyboard design, there'll be room for whatever keyswitches we want,


exactly! And then *all* of our dreams will come true :)

the board here is a great candidate as a universal switch receptacle. Its got everything everyone here asks for: spacesaver, trackpoint integrated, trim and even looks great.  (I could even live without the trackpoint if patents will be an issue. The rest of it is still brilliant). Each of us orders it with our favorite switch. Aaaah, nirvana.

I say again, if the code monkey who launched metadot can do it, any of us code monkeys can do it.

I dont even care who profits; i just want it to be available! And available state-side for a change.
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: wellington1869 on Thu, 11 December 2008, 21:36:27
There's only 2 things I'd request changing on the design above --
1) that the capslock key be a normal flat-top key and not the 2-step or '2-level' style
2) that we throw in the normal 12 function keys along the top.
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: wellington1869 on Thu, 11 December 2008, 21:37:22
Quote from: bhtooefr;14331
Of course, if we're designing our own low volume custom keyboard design, there'll be room for whatever keyswitches we want, except for possibly buckling spring, but possibly including Topre capacitive, in the design.

Time for a poll.


I could live without BS on this particular board (at least not at first, we can look into adding it later if its complicated), but I'd definitely ask for alps to be avail at launch :)
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: bhtooefr on Thu, 11 December 2008, 21:38:10
Well, I'm not sure about individual switch selection, although keeping it within a model line probably wouldn't be hard (think variations between Cherry MX models, but not switching to Alps, or vice versa.)

Also, I'd prefer a 2-step caps lock, and the 12 function keys can be handled with Fn.
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: wellington1869 on Thu, 11 December 2008, 21:41:56
Quote from: bhtooefr;14336
Well, I'm not sure about individual switch selection, although keeping it within a model line probably wouldn't be hard (think variations between Cherry MX models, but not switching to Alps, or vice versa.)

thats ok then it means we produce 2 lines :)
Quote

Also, I'd prefer a 2-step caps lock, .


thats solved by shipping it with both types :) Taking a page from the Topre handbook ;) we should also ship it with the optional red escape key. *Drooool* :)

The entire board of course should be offered with 4 types of keycaps (for every switch version): white, black, white-blank, black-blank. :D
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: bhtooefr on Thu, 11 December 2008, 21:49:58
So, really, what we need to do is optimize the layout. Of course, the Caps key will be used for different things by different people. I'm thinking of mine as a navigation lock (implemented as a shift - I know there's versions of the Cherry MX that support physically locked keys,) now, with the editing block on the home row and the row immediately above it, with the arrow keys on WASD.

I'd use Fn for accessing function keys...

Of course, that begs the question... do I really even need two separate Fn shifts? The only inaccessible keys with that layout would be the numpad, which... isn't really needed all that much (except for Alt codes, but I use those rarely enough that I can use charmap instead.)

So, here's what I want on the top row:

Esc should be the `/~ key in Fn mode
1 through =/+ keys should be F1 through F12 in Fn mode

(I'm guessing this is how the top row is already implemented...)

Row 2:

W should be Up Arrow
U should be Insert
I should be Home
O should be PgUp

Row 3:

CapsLk should be a physically locking Fn
A should be Left Arrow
S should be Down Arrow
D should be Right Arrow
J should be Delete
K should be End
L should be PgDn

Row 4:

Leave it alone.

Row 5:

Keys should be in this order:

Ctrl Win Alt Space Menu RtFn RtAlt RtCtrl

RtFn shouldn't be physically locking. It'll be useful for when I quickly need to navigate in the middle of something, but don't want to lock it down.

(And, I want Menu there because that's as close to the spacebar as I can get it, perfect for using it as a scroll button.)
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: wellington1869 on Thu, 11 December 2008, 21:54:38
so basically you want the HHKB style with some modifications; I actually want a perfectly normal layout lol! I do my shortcuts with autohotkey so I need the standard layout else it messes up my hotkeys.

so there should be an hhkb version and a regular version... :)
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: bhtooefr on Thu, 11 December 2008, 21:55:29
What makes this thing better than an HHKB is that it has more hotkeys to play with. I wouldn't consider an HHKB because of its lack of modifiers, and that SO MUCH is hidden.

And, with a LOCKING Fn key, it removes the major deficiency that the HHKB has with navigation.

I've gotta make that clear, though - caps lock MUST BE A LOCKING FN for me to buy this board.

I know there are locking keyswitches in both the Cherry MX and Alps camps, so that won't be a problem.
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: wellington1869 on Thu, 11 December 2008, 21:56:45
I love the "swirl" icon that he put on the winkeys and on the cable strap. Very funky.
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: bhtooefr on Thu, 11 December 2008, 21:59:47
Yeah, that is a nice icon.

You know, is that your attempt at a Geekhack logo, or something else, lowpoly? (It IS supposed to be a G, after all.)
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: wellington1869 on Thu, 11 December 2008, 22:03:29
omg is that supposed to be a G? That would make a pretty great geekhack logo I think :)
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: bhtooefr on Thu, 11 December 2008, 22:13:36
Also, I think it goes without saying that we want full 6-key rollover on this thing.

This thing is gonna be low enough volume that I doubt it'll add all that much to the cost.

(That is the problem with the Cherry vs. Alps thing, it'll add significantly to the cost to add another keyswitch type, unless they can use the same PCB... but they'll still need different keycaps.)
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: D-EJ915 on Thu, 11 December 2008, 23:29:17
I say solder in the locking key yourself ;)

If I were to buy a keyboard like this I would want it without the pointing stick to be honest.  Also right control keys are useless, especially on a keyboard with no arrow keys so that could be made into some additional modifier key or something.

I also like how the happy hacking keyboard sticks the #|\ key (left of 1) on the opposite side of the keyboard, for me this is a key I use quite a bit so having it easily accessible is somewhat essential.  I'd also prefer the right alt to be swapped with the 'G' key as it's an Alt Gr for me and the closer it is to the center the better.  The key right of shift added on the 105 keyboard is really not important.
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: bhtooefr on Thu, 11 December 2008, 23:35:05
Oh, nice, the alternate action (locking) Cherry MX switches are 2.1 oz, same as the blues. :)

So, if it were a Cherry-based board, I'd want 59 MX1A-E1DWs (blue, with diode, PCB mount,) 1 MX1A-31DW (alternate action, with diode, PCB mount,) and 1 MX1A-F1DW (green, with diode, PCB mount.)

Of course, all those diodes might not be necessary for a 6-key rollover board...
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: lowpoly on Fri, 12 December 2008, 05:28:48
Quote from: bhtooefr;14320
I really should draw my optimal layouts... how many Fn-style modifiers does that controller support?

Only one additional layer.

Quote from: iMav;14323
I'm fairly ignorant when it comes to the logistics regarding what it would take to produce production keyboards...but for what it's worth, you have the full support of geekhack.  If we can be of assistance, just let me know.  (we need a go to keyboard here)  :)

Thanks. There's a lot to do to make this production ready. I didn't think it through yet fully but plan to during the next days.

Quote from: bhtooefr;14325
(I'm thinking of this from a production standpoint. Buying TrackPoint IV keyboards to rip them apart to integrate the pointing stick = wasteful.)

Thanks for the Alps tip, I didn't know that. I think you can buy original Trackpoints. The company who manufactures them didn't care to respond to my emails though, grrrr.

Quote from: wellington1869;14330
all I can say is if the guy who launched metadot could do it on a whim with no previous manufacturing experience, then I think any of us can. Just a matter of getting the funders together with the lawyers :)

He never manufactured anything himself though. It still might be the right thing to do these days.

Quote from: wellington1869;14334
There's only 2 things I'd request changing on the design above --
1) that the capslock key be a normal flat-top key and not the 2-step or '2-level' style
2) that we throw in the normal 12 function keys along the top.

The flat capslock key won't work on this board, because the key won't go down very well when pressed on the lower part. It would need a level bracket then.

WRT to function keys I could build an extension module with function keys and cursor block from the left over G80 parts. I could even use the original G80 controller with that and feed it into the USB hub. Like a docking module. But accessing the function keys with Fn and number is perfectly intuitive? If you really need them you could use the number row for function keys and program a Fn numpad somewhere using the number row keys. The keycaps even have the same slant.

Quote from: bhtooefr;14340
So, really, what we need to do is optimize the layout. Of course, the Caps key will be used for different things by different people. I'm thinking of mine as a navigation lock (implemented as a shift - I know there's versions of the Cherry MX that support physically locked keys,) now, with the editing block on the home row and the row immediately above it, with the arrow keys on WASD.

I'd use Fn for accessing function keys...

Of course, that begs the question... do I really even need two separate Fn shifts? The only inaccessible keys with that layout would be the numpad, which... isn't really needed all that much (except for Alt codes, but I use those rarely enough that I can use charmap instead.)

So, here's what I want on the top row:

Esc should be the `/~ key in Fn mode
1 through =/+ keys should be F1 through F12 in Fn mode

(I'm guessing this is how the top row is already implemented...)

Row 2:

W should be Up Arrow
U should be Insert
I should be Home
O should be PgUp

Row 3:

CapsLk should be a physically locking Fn
A should be Left Arrow
S should be Down Arrow
D should be Right Arrow
J should be Delete
K should be End
L should be PgDn

Row 4:

Leave it alone.

Row 5:

Keys should be in this order:

Ctrl Win Alt Space Menu RtFn RtAlt RtCtrl

RtFn shouldn't be physically locking. It'll be useful for when I quickly need to navigate in the middle of something, but don't want to lock it down.

(And, I want Menu there because that's as close to the spacebar as I can get it, perfect for using it as a scroll button.)

Top row is as you said.

Rows  2-4: I like the WASD idea. What do you think of the NEO (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/67/NEO-Layout-Ebene4.svg/800px-NEO-Layout-Ebene4.svg.png) navigation layout? This is for an ISO keyboard though.

Row 5: Do you want to use Menu as a middle mouse button ("scroll")? I'd probably swap Menu and RtFn because I like to press Fn with the thumb... However, the keys in the bottom row are all the same size and re-programming is quickly done.

I might actually try this during the next days.

Quote from: wellington1869;14341
so basically you want the HHKB style with some modifications; I actually want a perfectly normal layout lol! I do my shortcuts with autohotkey so I need the standard layout else it messes up my hotkeys.

so there should be an hhkb version and a regular version... :)

It would be easy to provide a few layout files. And you can pull the lower row keys without a keycap puller because the edges are not hidden.

Quote from: bhtooefr;14344
You know, is that your attempt at a Geekhack logo, or something else, lowpoly? (It IS supposed to be a G, after all.)

No, the original name I had in mind also starts with a G. :)

Quote from: bhtooefr;14348
Also, I think it goes without saying that we want full 6-key rollover on this thing.

This thing is gonna be low enough volume that I doubt it'll add all that much to the cost.

(That is the problem with the Cherry vs. Alps thing, it'll add significantly to the cost to add another keyswitch type, unless they can use the same PCB... but they'll still need different keycaps.)

I have some ideas for a switch design, I'll have to see how this works out. :)

The pcb layout has to be done anyway, nKey rollover just adds some complexity. And the diode switches should be more expensive.

Quote from: bhtooefr;14362
So, if it were a Cherry-based board, I'd want 59 MX1A-E1DWs (blue, with diode, PCB mount,) 1 MX1A-31DW (alternate action, with diode, PCB mount,) and 1 MX1A-F1DW (green, with diode, PCB mount.)

:D

Rollover is not that good right now. It currently depends on using additional rows and columns.
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: bhtooefr on Fri, 12 December 2008, 10:27:11
Not really feeling the NEO layout, and it has some limitations that make it not good for this layout (with F keys on the board.)

And, yes, I'll be using RtFn less than the scroll button. I use trackpoint scroll ALL THE TIME right now.

But, you might ship it in this layout, for that cluster:

RtAlt RtFn Menu RtCtrl

That way, it looks like a standard Windows 104-key layout in that cluster, and it IS reprogrammable, so I could just change it to be how I want it.
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: lowpoly on Fri, 12 December 2008, 12:25:22
You're right about the NEO layout, I forgot the F keys. NEO has 4 layers so it's less cramped.

Currently I use a well known Japanese layout for the cursor keys just so I don't have to adapt when switching between keyboards. I'm not too happy with that one though as it relies heavily on the right pinky. I'll try WASD next week.

Quote
But, you might ship it in this layout, for that cluster:

RtAlt RtFn Menu RtCtrl

That way, it looks like a standard Windows 104-key layout in that cluster, and it IS reprogrammable, so I could just change it to be how I want it.

Sounds like a plan. A couple of blank keys for the space bar row might be nice. For ex. I never use RCtrl.

I just used Autohotkey to put the middle mouse button on menu. Very nice.

Speaking of standard layout...

Quote from: D-EJ915
I also like how the happy hacking keyboard sticks the #|\ key (left of 1) on the opposite side of the keyboard, for me this is a key I use quite a bit so having it easily accessible is somewhat essential. I'd also prefer the right alt to be swapped with the 'G' key as it's an Alt Gr for me and the closer it is to the center the better. The key right of shift added on the 105 keyboard is really not important.

I thought about that layout change for some time and finally decided against it. First it would have been very difficult to pull off without machinery. I only had a Dremel and a simple power drill. And I'm not that precise with my pinky so more distance between enter and backspace is good for me.

I'm using the board on my laptop now and the large feet work perfectly. I can even move the 'board around into any position I want (one of the big advantages of the small footprint).

Also, I put Ctrl-X/C/V on Fn-S/D/F. Not a big improvement but still nice. I'll move that to the other side for WASD navigation.
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: bhtooefr on Fri, 12 December 2008, 12:29:20
ESDF for the arrow key cluster actually makes more sense (which is what the NEO does,) as that moves right arrow to the F key, but WASD is more standard for an arrow cluster. (Think first person shooters.)
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: bhtooefr on Fri, 12 December 2008, 12:41:31
Oh, and what's your opinion on making Caps Lock a physical Fn lock, with an alternate action switch?
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: bhtooefr on Fri, 12 December 2008, 12:52:15
Sorry about the triple-post, but do you mind if I post this on other forums to gauge interest in a production version?
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: lowpoly on Fri, 12 December 2008, 12:57:56
Quote from: bhtooefr;14396
ESDF for the arrow key cluster actually makes more sense (which is what the NEO does,) as that moves right arrow to the F key, but WASD is more standard for an arrow cluster. (Think first person shooters.)
NEO uses ESDF because then home and end can be put to the left and right of the horizontal arrow keys. Which is quite elegant. But WASD is well established which I prefer.

Quote from: bhtooefr;14398
Oh, and what's your opinion on making Caps Lock a physical Fn lock, with an alternate action switch?
I think using CapsLock as LCtrl is highly popular so many would be put off by that switch. But I understand the reasoning behind it. I think we need both.
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: wellington1869 on Fri, 12 December 2008, 12:58:26
lowpoly what r u planning in terms of manufacturing? To take it to an oem manufacturer? Is that different from what metadot guy did?

(And yes I think we'll need multiple versions of this (both layout and switches) to make everyone here happy ;) I'd definitely only want normal layout (and preferably with normal function keys since I use them a LOT, both for custom functions and for programs, tho I might buy it even if they were just tied to function key). The trackpoint I could live either with or without.) But normal layout on the remaining keys is a must... at least on one version of the board...
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: lowpoly on Fri, 12 December 2008, 13:05:04
Quote from: bhtooefr;14402
Sorry about the triple-post, but do you mind if I post this on other forums to gauge interest in a production version?

Not at all, thanks for doing this.
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: bhtooefr on Fri, 12 December 2008, 13:06:57
That is elegant, but my idea does put End on a home key (whereas the NEO layout doesn't,) and it puts Home one row above a home key.

Of course, maybe I could just do what wellington said, and solder in my own alternate action switch. :P
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: wellington1869 on Fri, 12 December 2008, 13:44:40
Quote from: lowpoly;14407
Not at all, thanks for doing this.


we should generate buzz so that this actually gets made (including pressuring and hounding lowpoly himself) ;)
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: itlnstln on Fri, 12 December 2008, 13:51:59
This is a very cool design.  Lowpoly should get this thing patented and in mass production.  I am not a huge fan of the small layouts, but this is great (I do love my ml-4100, too).
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: bhtooefr on Fri, 12 December 2008, 13:53:32
So, I'm thinking, the following configurations...

60 MX Black + 1 Grey Linear
59 MX Black + 1 Alt Action + 1 Grey Linear
60 MX Brown + 1 Grey Tactile
59 MX Brown + 1 Alt Action + 1 Grey Tactile
60 MX Blue + 1 Green
59 MX Blue + 1 Alt Action + 1 Green

61 Strongman White
61 Strongman Black

Of course, right there, that means that you've got two different PCBs (unless lowpoly has an idea for running both Cherry MX and Strongman switches on the same PCB,) eight different switch configurations to run on the production line, and two different sets of keycaps (and that's just for one color.)
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: wellington1869 on Fri, 12 December 2008, 13:56:20
by the way I'd probably never use the usb port and power adapter thing. if it saves any significant money, maybe a version without those (and without trackpoint) as a lower cost version maybe.

Oh, and dont forget european layouts.
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: wellington1869 on Fri, 12 December 2008, 13:57:01
I look at this board and I have the urge to put it between two loaves of bread and eat it.
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: bhtooefr on Fri, 12 December 2008, 13:59:34
I almost wonder if we could expand to those layouts after this thing takes off. The US market has the weakest selection of good keyboards, IMO.

(There may also be the fact that I want one of these, and I want US layout with horizontal enter. :p)
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: wellington1869 on Fri, 12 December 2008, 14:05:45
every one of these should ship with an iMav-knitted keyboard sock. (personalized with your name on it).
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: bhtooefr on Fri, 12 December 2008, 14:12:25
Well, they are fully programmable, actually, already. ;)
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: wellington1869 on Fri, 12 December 2008, 14:13:45
it should definitely come with a set of dip switches that do stuff. For instance control/capslock switching can be done that way right? That way a bunch of minor variations can be taken care of with dip switches.
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: wellington1869 on Fri, 12 December 2008, 14:15:01
Quote from: webwit;14446
I bow deeply and humbly while retreating backwards for geekhack's new king.


LOL! Walking backwards is quite a skill (did you see 'the madness of king george'?)
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: lowpoly on Fri, 12 December 2008, 14:24:59
Quote from: wellington1869;14406
lowpoly what r u planning in terms of manufacturing? To take it to an oem manufacturer? Is that different from what metadot guy did?

(And yes I think we'll need multiple versions of this (both layout and switches) to make everyone here happy ;) I'd definitely only want normal layout (and preferably with normal function keys since I use them a LOT, both for custom functions and for programs, tho I might buy it even if they were just tied to function key). The trackpoint I could live either with or without.) But normal layout on the remaining keys is a must... at least on one version of the board...

As for OEM, can't say that yet. So, IF it will go into production: I agree that multiple versions would be good. Much can be done by programming the controller and moving keys around. Different switch brands will be more difficult. Everything that requires a different pcb layout will be a lot of work.

Quote from: bhtooefr;14408
That is elegant, but my idea does put End on a home key (whereas the NEO layout doesn't,) and it puts Home one row above a home key.

Of course, maybe I could just do what wellington said, and solder in my own alternate action switch. :P


Quote
Row 2:

W should be Up Arrow
U should be Insert
I should be Home
O should be PgUp

Row 3:

CapsLk should be a physically locking Fn
A should be Left Arrow
S should be Down Arrow
D should be Right Arrow
J should be Delete
K should be End
L should be PgDn

So, if you don't have the double action Fn: This would require constant change of the Fn key? Assuming that the other hand will press Fn. I think I'd prefer all the cursor keys on the left hand. Like f/v for home/end and g/b for pgup/pgdn (which I rarely use anymore).
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: bhtooefr on Fri, 12 December 2008, 14:26:18
And there's even been mention of giving it blank keycaps. ;)

Edit: If you're going to use that approach, I'd do f/c and g/v. B is a bit of a reach for a left hand key.
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: bigpook on Fri, 12 December 2008, 14:28:24
You guys have all added some interesting changes but wouldn't that add to the difficulty of getting it mass produced.

I am thinking of the guy that did the Das keyboard. It was probably a big deal just to get the one designed and built.

I wonder what the minimum manufacturing lot would be for something like this. Would they need to make 1000 keyboards to be even interested?

I could be all wrong here, please don't flame me.
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: wellington1869 on Fri, 12 December 2008, 14:35:14
Quote

Different switch brands will be more difficult. Everything that requires a different pcb layout will be a lot of work


well thats for the manufacturer to figure out, right? Or are you seriously thinking of taking a soldering iron in your basement and pumping out custom versions for individual geekhacker requests? Good god man, hand over the manufacturer to an oem and be done with it! You'll make a killing with the licensing fees.

the different switches will be crucial to its wide appeal I think, since if the poll above is any indication, there's no huge agreement on what switches geekhackers would prefer. There will probably be a cherry pcb and an alps pcb at the very least.
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: bhtooefr on Fri, 12 December 2008, 14:35:22
bigpook, you raise an excellent point.

We want lots of configurability, but we're going to have to make them all the same for an initial run. And I can fully understand why people wouldn't want the locking Fn... but I'd need it.
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: wellington1869 on Fri, 12 December 2008, 14:37:33
Quote from: bigpook;14454


I wonder what the minimum manufacturing lot would be for something like this. Would they need to make 1000 keyboards to be even interested?

.

i have no idea either on what it takes, but new products come to market so often, and the barriers of entry keep going down, and a metadot former computer programmer could do it in such short notice, that I cant imagine its really that big a deal.  It might be worthwhile to contact metadot guy and ask about his experiences.  But basically I imagine that once you have a few prototypes and some basic buzz (the buzz is already done, he has geekhack specialty forum behind him), I think you go to a bank for initial funding and quite honestly they take it from there and you sit back and get royalties. I mean really, they're not expecting the inventor (in this case, lowpoly) to know all the ins-and-outs of venture capital funding and legal issues and manufacturing line technicalities. All they want to know is a) how is the product differentiated from its competition; b) is there a market niche. Thats it, they'll really do the rest, thats what they do for a living.

(the above is based on what i know from movies, so dont flame me either ;)
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: wellington1869 on Fri, 12 December 2008, 14:43:11
Quote from: webwit;14458
7:08 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=leJeemeiWNA) :eek:


LOL again :) I have the john adams series in my netflix queue, hated that I missed it cuz I dont have cable ;)
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: bigpook on Fri, 12 December 2008, 14:57:06
I don't know. There may be buzz, but unless Lowpoly has something going on on his end then the buzz is limited to geekhack. We have around 200 users. And not all may be interested.
An OEM is probably not interested in a small run. I would think they need some kind of volume before they consider it.
 A run of 100 units would be a specialty item, and quite expensive not doubt.
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: bhtooefr on Fri, 12 December 2008, 14:57:37
I've posted it on The Tech Report, and there's some weak interest there. But not much.
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: wellington1869 on Fri, 12 December 2008, 15:04:57
Quote from: bigpook;14463

An OEM is probably not interested in a small run.

but if I remember from my engineering days there are OEM's who specialize in small runs (prototypes and such).
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: wellington1869 on Fri, 12 December 2008, 15:05:29
Quote from: bhtooefr;14464
I've posted it on The Tech Report, and there's some weak interest there. But not much.


I think we should get one or two versions into the hands of reviewers too. (like maybe endgaget, gizmodo, other places that do reviews). The feedback will be useful to the development cycle anyway.
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: bhtooefr on Fri, 12 December 2008, 15:07:12
TR would be a good site, too - there's a few clicky keyboard fans there, including one of their writers. Basically, I think we should hit major sites that have liked either the Das III or the HHKB. We're going for "HHKB layout, but better" and (with a Cherry blue model) Das III feel.
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: wellington1869 on Fri, 12 December 2008, 15:09:15
Quote from: bhtooefr;14468
We're going for "HHKB layout, but better" and (with a Cherry blue model) Das III feel.



true, although the normal layout version with alps would be "like tp2 but super spacesaver" ;) It kinda looks like a mini tp2 actually.

edit: come to think of it, the initial run will most probably be whatever lowpoly decides he wants on the board for himself first :) Since i'm sure he wants it in his own hands asap.  The rest of our ideas will no doubt have to wait for future production runs ;)
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: bhtooefr on Fri, 12 December 2008, 15:10:10
Or "like CVT Avant." ;)
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: itlnstln on Fri, 12 December 2008, 15:11:52
DSI can OEM.  They were suggesting that they could OEM a split-ergo board with blue-Cherries that I had wanted, but since it wasn't going to be a big run, they weren't interested.  I didn't get any details, so you may want to contact them and see what they offer.  George Tsai was the person with DSI that contacted me.  here is the thread with a few details: http://geekhack.org/showthread.php?t=713.
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: lowpoly on Fri, 12 December 2008, 16:23:48
Thanks for the comments. I just realized I can't keep up with the pace of this thread. :)

Quote from: wellington1869;14436
by the way I'd probably never use the usb port and power adapter thing. if it saves any significant money, maybe a version without those (and without trackpoint) as a lower cost version maybe.

Oh, and dont forget european layouts.

It needs the USB port to feed the Trackpoint and the keyboard controller into a single USB cable. That cable is detachable. That's a 4 port hub and I use 2 ports internally. I'd like to keep the removable cable. Without Trackpoint it might work but that would be another variation.

As for European layouts: My current laptop has ANSI layout but german keycaps. So there are options without pcb redesign.

I started with ANSI layout because I prefer it to ISO. Left shift and enter are just easier to reach.

Quote from: bhtooefr;14434
So, I'm thinking, the following configurations...

60 MX Black + 1 Grey Linear
59 MX Black + 1 Alt Action + 1 Grey Linear
60 MX Brown + 1 Grey Tactile
59 MX Brown + 1 Alt Action + 1 Grey Tactile
60 MX Blue + 1 Green
59 MX Blue + 1 Alt Action + 1 Green

61 Strongman White
61 Strongman Black

Of course, right there, that means that you've got two different PCBs (unless lowpoly has an idea for running both Cherry MX and Strongman switches on the same PCB,) eight different switch configurations to run on the production line, and two different sets of keycaps (and that's just for one color.)

I think I'd start with Cherry. It would be just easier to call or visit them. Depending on the construction of the alternate action switch it might be possible to add one to the package.

Quote from: wellington1869;14448
it should definitely come with a set of dip switches that do stuff. For instance control/capslock switching can be done that way right? That way a bunch of minor variations can be taken care of with dip switches.

The controller doesn't support dip switches.

Quote from: bhtooefr;14452
And there's even been mention of giving it blank keycaps. ;)

Edit: If you're going to use that approach, I'd do f/c and g/v. B is a bit of a reach for a left hand key.

f/c and g/v is better, yes. And blank keycaps shouldn't be too difficult. Cherry has done it before. :)

Quote from: bigpook;14454
You guys have all added some interesting changes but wouldn't that add to the difficulty of getting it mass produced.

I am thinking of the guy that did the Das keyboard. It was probably a big deal just to get the one designed and built.

I wonder what the minimum manufacturing lot would be for something like this. Would they need to make 1000 keyboards to be even interested?

I could be all wrong here, please don't flame me.

Actually, the variations I was thinking of so far would be keycap/programming variations. Like a version with Mac keys pre-programmed. If it sells, the more difficult variations - like an Alps pcb - should be doable. Like Costar/Filco did it with the Tenkeyless.

Quote from: wellington1869;14455
well thats for the manufacturer to figure out, right? Or are you seriously thinking of taking a soldering iron in your basement and pumping out custom versions for individual geekhacker requests? Good god man, hand over the manufacturer to an oem and be done with it! You'll make a killing with the licensing fees.

the different switches will be crucial to its wide appeal I think, since if the poll above is any indication, there's no huge agreement on what switches geekhackers would prefer. There will probably be a cherry pcb and an alps pcb at the very least.

I have the feeling that this is too far away from what the OEM manufacturers generally do. Still, it might be possible. I'm not going to solder myself. :)

Quote from: bigpook;14463
I don't know. There may be buzz, but unless Lowpoly has something going on on his end then the buzz is limited to geekhack. We have around 200 users. And not all may be interested.
An OEM is probably not interested in a small run. I would think they need some kind of volume before they consider it.
 A run of 100 units would be a specialty item, and quite expensive not doubt.

It doesn't have to come from a single manufacturer. Some company in far east could do the pcb and controller manufacturing. Case could be cut from an Aluminum block here in Germany. Keycaps from Cherry in Czech republic. Assembly could be somewhere. Something like that.

Quote from: bhtooefr;14468
TR would be a good site, too - there's a few clicky keyboard fans there, including one of their writers. Basically, I think we should hit major sites that have liked either the Das III or the HHKB. We're going for "HHKB layout, but better" and (with a Cherry blue model) Das III feel.

I think the most important feature of this board is that you don't have to leave the home row.

Quote from: itlnstln;14471
DSI can OEM.  They were suggesting that they could OEM a split-ergo board with blue-Cherries that I had wanted, but since it wasn't going to be a big run, they weren't interested.  I didn't get any details, so you may want to contact them and see what they offer.  George Tsai was the person with DSI that contacted me.  here is the thread with a few details: http://geekhack.org/showthread.php?t=713.

Thanks for the link. Costar and DSI would be the ones to talk to.
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: bigpook on Fri, 12 December 2008, 16:41:31
I don't know if anyone has mentioned this but is there a need to patent/trademark your design?
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: lowpoly on Fri, 12 December 2008, 16:53:12
itlnstln mentioned it. I'll check it, thanks.
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: D-EJ915 on Fri, 12 December 2008, 17:10:27
Quote from: wellington1869;14459
LOL again :) I have the john adams series in my netflix queue, hated that I missed it cuz I dont have cable ;)
my dad bought it on DVD and says it's excellent
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: bhtooefr on Fri, 12 December 2008, 17:44:21
Quote from: lowpoly;14482
I think the most important feature of this board is that you don't have to leave the home row.


And that's a strong argument for making Caps Lock an alternate action Fn, because then it would be on the home row, and you truly wouldn't have to leave home row for a lot of stuff.

But, it does go against the whole... Ctrl in Caps Lock location thing.

(Anyway, I'm about to go to Micro Center, to try to play with a Das III, so I can feel what Cherry blues feel like.)
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: bhtooefr on Fri, 12 December 2008, 20:50:07
Something I'll note... there's some more interest on that one forum I posted it on, but several people there have mentioned that they'd like a bezel for it. So, you might consider adding a bezel, even though I personally prefer the bezel-less design.
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: bigpook on Sat, 13 December 2008, 10:11:13
Quote from: bhtooefr;14500
Something I'll note... there's some more interest on that one forum I posted it on, but several people there have mentioned that they'd like a bezel for it. So, you might consider adding a bezel, even though I personally prefer the bezel-less design.


What forum is it that you posted on?
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: bhtooefr on Sat, 13 December 2008, 10:12:38
Here's the thread: http://techreport.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=29&t=63382
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: bigpook on Sat, 13 December 2008, 10:21:05
got it. I didn't think of a bezel. I think it looks great as is. But I do like the minimal design. There was some grief over the key placements but they can be remapped, big deal.
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: lowpoly on Sat, 13 December 2008, 10:37:52
Quote from: bhtooefr;14488
And that's a strong argument for making Caps Lock an alternate action Fn, because then it would be on the home row, and you truly wouldn't have to leave home row for a lot of stuff.
I usually press the Fn key with my thumb, that's why they're next to the space bar.

Quote from: bhtooefr;14500
Something I'll note... there's some more interest on that one forum I posted it on, but several people there have mentioned that they'd like a bezel for it. So, you might consider adding a bezel, even though I personally prefer the bezel-less design.
Maybe they didn't click the link and see the other pics? The case is hard to see in the first pic. Maybe post this (http://img262.imageshack.us/img262/6573/08frontfloatinggs6.jpg) and this (http://img262.imageshack.us/img262/4264/09rearfloatingyt6.jpg) as well? Personally, I'm not too happy with a bigger case because one of my goals was to make the case as small as possible. But I'm not sure if I fully understand what's meant by 'bezel'.

Edit: You can easily pick it up with one hand by grabbing it from above. And of course you need a bag to protect it when you carry it around (for ex. if you leave the house).
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: bhtooefr on Sat, 13 December 2008, 10:40:29
I'm afraid you DO understand what is meant by bezel. So, they want it to be bigger than it is. ;)

But, I went ahead and posted the pics.

That reminds me... the remapping software... what platforms does it run on?

I'm assuming Windows only? Linux and Mac support would be a good selling point.
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: bigpook on Sat, 13 December 2008, 10:44:42
Quote from: bhtooefr;14572
I'm afraid you DO understand what is meant by bezel. So, they want it to be bigger than it is. ;)

But, I went ahead and posted the pics.

That reminds me... the remapping software... what platforms does it run on?

I'm assuming Windows only? Linux and Mac support would be a good selling point.


Right, the bezel in the pics is unobtrusive, the way it should be . If you were going to increase the size I would take my cue from the Filco mini. http://www.diatec.co.jp/shop/det.php?prod_c=579

Anything larger than that would ruin the 'board.
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: lowpoly on Sat, 13 December 2008, 10:54:32
It actually feels better to grab than the HHKB but I might be biased. :) That's because the bezel on the HHKB is quite low and you don't have the additional support of the keycaps. So it feels your thumb could easily slide off.

The mapping software is Windows only I think. But I'd have to talk to the mfgr. of the controller chip anyway, this would be one of the topics. Also, the text file based programming, while it's easy, isn't something with end-user appeal.
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: bhtooefr on Sat, 13 December 2008, 11:07:35
And they're asking for a frickin' Model M-sized bezel, on TR. Well, enough to put buttons on the front NOT vertically, anyway, so at least Unicomp SpaceSaver/EnduraPro sized.

As for the text-file based programming not being user friendly, that's not a big deal, it's not exactly hard to write an app that generates the text file.
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: lowpoly on Sat, 13 December 2008, 14:40:32
Quote from: bhtooefr;14580
And they're asking for a frickin' Model M-sized bezel, on TR. Well, enough to put buttons on the front NOT vertically, anyway, so at least Unicomp SpaceSaver/EnduraPro sized.
Thanks for running the TR thread. :)

The donor board I took the Trackpoint from had similar buttons. I didn't like them too much. They were sort of hard to press. But a huge bezel like that will be too much anyway.

When I decided to make the case flush with the keycaps I knew that you would see part of the switch and the lower edge of the keycap. Things you usually don't see. And I wondered if people wouldn't like it. I was a reminded of that when he said 'unfinished'. However, I think that's a small price to pay for the smallest footprint possible. Impossible to do without compromising somewhere. I'd rather shape the lower edge of the keycaps to mirror the sheet metal. However, custom keycaps are another can of worms.

I also thought about creating a kind of blind, a small stripe of flexible black plastic - as wide as the 'board - that will run from the switch pcb into the keycaps. So you wouldn't be able to see the switches anymore. I have to check if there's enough space when the cap is pressed down. Probably not but I'll try that on Monday.
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: bhtooefr on Sat, 13 December 2008, 15:01:12
How about this, extend the aluminum case up vertically, and bend it so that it nearly touches the switch bodies, with it at a height such that the keys nearly touch it when depressed?

That way, you get your "blind," without any additional parts, and it looks more finished.

The only problem is that serviceability goes down, as you're bending the keyboard's body over the internals. But, if you made it so that the bottom of the keyboard could drop out, you could remove the keycaps and drop it out that way...
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: lowpoly on Sat, 13 December 2008, 15:21:30
When I press a key then the cap will almost touch the case. There's just not enough room for this. You'd have to bend twice, first in at 90° then up again but that won't work either as some switches are too close to the case for that (I have the board right in front of me, making it easy to check).

It would have to run into the keycaps and you'd have to cut slits into the sloped part or the caps won't go down at all. That's why I mentioned the (black) plastic blind. Cutting slits into that is easy.
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: bhtooefr on Sat, 13 December 2008, 15:23:58
How about a 90 degree bend at the current height? At least it'd help make it look a little more finished.
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: bhtooefr on Sat, 13 December 2008, 15:38:03
Come to think of it, even if it were just rolled over, it'd help it look more finished.
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: lowpoly on Sat, 13 December 2008, 15:43:11
The switches touch the case, there's nowhere that bend could go. Maybe a piece of plastic that you screw onto the switch pcb that's flush with the upper case edge and touches it, just not there where the switches are.

More room at the sides, still I'd rather use an extra part as the bend will be difficult to do.

So the problem seems to be the upper edge... I don't mind it but I can see that it's uncommon.

The other question is whether the final case will be made from sheet metal, plastic or cut from an aluminum block.
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: lowpoly on Sat, 13 December 2008, 15:43:55
Quote from: bhtooefr;14619
Come to think of it, even if it were just rolled over, it'd help it look more finished.

Rolled over?
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: bhtooefr on Sat, 13 December 2008, 15:48:45
Right now, as I understand, the case is shaped like the top drawing. The bottom drawing would have it rolled over, at least hiding the edge of the aluminum.

(http://bhtooefr.ath.cx/images/rolledover.PNG)
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: bigpook on Sat, 13 December 2008, 16:19:23
While that will make for a more finished look, it won't do much to hide the key switches.
Not that it bothers me.
Let me ask this though, after looking at the pictures again, its plain to see that the keycaps are floating above the board, which is nice, but on the other hand, there is nothing to protect the keys. Don't know if this is a problem or not. I look at my other keyboards and the bezel that wraps around the keyboard seems to offer some protection.

Maybe the keys being so exposed will increase the chance of damage to them?
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: lowpoly on Sat, 13 December 2008, 16:22:54
Ah, thanks. This might break the Aluminum though. Basically, bend it once and back and it will break. A 180 degree bend may be enough to make it brittle.

This is what it looks like:

(http://img148.imageshack.us/img148/660/case004ut4.jpg)

Switch corners are the same height as the upper edge. Case is 0.8mm (0.0315") Aluminum.

Number row is the same situation. I had to remove part of the backspace level bracket or the case wouldn't have fit.

The corners are round inside because that's where the open edges are glued together.

Even with a small 90 degree bend the pcb couldn't be moved in from the top so a two part solution would be needed. Instead of removing the bottom - which would introduce new structural problems - I could remove a part of the back wall and slide the pcb in from behind. Might work especially well with a machined aluminum case.

Maybe just paint the upper edge black? :)
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: lowpoly on Sat, 13 December 2008, 16:29:51
Quote from: bigpook;14626
Maybe the keys being so exposed will increase the chance of damage to them?
I dropped the whole board from 3 feet and nothing happened. It landed on the case though.

What kind of damage szenario could that be? If I dropped my HHKB on the floor I wouldn't expect it to survive that.

The keycaps are tough as can be. You'd need a big hammer to break them.
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: bigpook on Sat, 13 December 2008, 16:31:35
If it can't be bent, perhaps sanded for smoothness?
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: lowpoly on Sat, 13 December 2008, 16:35:16
I did that. Looking at it now I should have done it again after stripping the first paint job.
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: lowpoly on Sat, 13 December 2008, 16:42:34
I probably could do the 90 degree bend at the sides and at the front. At the front there would have to be cutouts for the switches but it would be still a 'manufactured' edge. If I'd leave the back as it is the pcb could still be dropped in from above.

Unrelated, my wife just complained about the noise from the blue Cherries, LOL.
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: bigpook on Sat, 13 December 2008, 16:44:37
Quote from: lowpoly;14630
I dropped the whole board from 3 feet and nothing happened. It landed on the case though.

What kind of damage szenario could that be? If I dropped my HHKB on the floor I wouldn't expect it to survive that.

The keycaps are tough as can be. You'd need a big hammer to break them.

I notice the keycaps are exposed on the keys that face the outside of the board. It just seems like something/anything can get wedged in there and maybe cause damage/issues with the keyswitch, maybe.
Your right about dropping it on the floor, aside from a Model M, there stands a good chance of some kind of damge, bezel or no bezel.
And while the keys are tough, how tough are the key switches?

Its probably nothing, but now is the time to bring these questions to the fore.
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: bigpook on Sat, 13 December 2008, 16:48:11
Quote from: lowpoly;14632
I did that. Looking at it now I should have done it again after stripping the first paint job.


ok, so thats not really an issue then.
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: lowpoly on Sat, 13 December 2008, 16:50:13
Thinking more about the 90 degree bend I don't think it would look good. Just look at the bottom pic and the radius that is created by a bend. You can't do cut-outs with that radius.

Anyway, I don't think the case can be mass produced like I did it here. So it would either have to be plastic or machined Aluminum. No bend problem with either of these. The question is just how the edge should look.
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: bigpook on Sat, 13 December 2008, 16:55:38
Quote from: lowpoly;14637
Thinking more about the 90 degree bend I don't think it would look good. Just look at the bottom pic and the radius that is created by a bend. You can't do cut-outs with that radius.

Anyway, I don't think the case can be mass produced like I did it here. So it would either have to be plastic or machined Aluminum. No bend problem with either of these. The question is just how the edge should look.


If its plastic of machined aluminum, then the 180 degree bend that bhtooefr suggested would look nicer. Then again, it just needs to look finished, so some kind of rounding at the top would work. Visually, I would suggest that there be no sharp edges.
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: lowpoly on Sat, 13 December 2008, 17:00:35
Quote from: bigpook;14634
And while the keys are tough, how tough are the key switches?
The switch is weaker than the cap, no question. But you'd have to do crash tests to see what happens. The cap might just slide off. Or the upper part of the switch falls off but you can clip it back together. On the outer rows I pull the keycaps off all the time without using a keycap puller. Not as precise but so far no problems.

Edit:

Quote
Its probably nothing, but now is the time to bring these questions to the fore.
Of course, I appreciate it. Let me know when I get too defensive. :)
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: lowpoly on Sat, 13 December 2008, 17:09:57
Quote from: bigpook;14640
If its plastic of machined aluminum, then the 180 degree bend that bhtooefr suggested would look nicer. Then again, it just needs to look finished, so some kind of rounding at the top would work. Visually, I would suggest that there be no sharp edges.

Maybe it's time for a 3D model now. I really wanted to avoid that. :) With something like this, you have to see it.
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: bigpook on Sat, 13 December 2008, 17:10:40
Quote from: lowpoly;14643
The switch is weaker than the cap, no question. But you'd have to do crash tests to see what happens. The cap might just slide off. Or the upper part of the switch falls off but you can clip it back together. On the outer rows I pull the keycaps off all the time without using a keycap puller. Not as precise but so far no problems.



So thats not an issue then, ok. Moving on.
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: bigpook on Sat, 13 December 2008, 17:12:48
Quote from: lowpoly;14645
Maybe it's time for a 3D model now. I really wanted to avoid that. :) With something like this, you have to see it.


: ) And I take it that you are able to render this as a 3D model?
I bow to your skillz, lowpoly.
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: lowpoly on Sat, 13 December 2008, 17:39:30
:)

Doing this well will take time but might come handy with production.
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: wellington1869 on Sat, 13 December 2008, 18:29:04
neat. photoshop?  I agree about the bezels, absolute blasphemy.

It sounds like I'm a minority voice here but I say again if you go too far from a normal layout you're going to appeal to a handful of geekhackers with esoteric typing habits rather than to the masses -- and I would hope this beautiful design is destined for the masses ;)
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: Chloe on Sat, 13 December 2008, 18:30:45
Interesting location. I find small trackballs (like the one in my Compaq) too slow on big resolutions. I wonder if something like a Blackberry trackball could be added to the top of the space bar key with some firmware so fast movements would move it further.
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: wellington1869 on Sat, 13 December 2008, 18:34:15
I still want to put it in a sandwich and eat it.
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: wellington1869 on Sat, 13 December 2008, 18:36:56
Quote from: webwit;14666
True if you don't change the defaults. But if I change the mouse settings when using a Compaq MX 11800, it works fine on my 1900x1200.


but you're not using a separate driver for the mouse on the mx11800 right? So when you switch back to your laptop's mousepad dont you have to readjust your mouse settings?

I had this problem with my mx 11800. Gave up on the mouse cuz didnt want to keep switching mouse settings as I went back and forth.
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: bigpook on Sat, 13 December 2008, 18:49:55
Quote from: wellington1869;14662
neat. photoshop?  I agree about the bezels, absolute blasphemy.

It sounds like I'm a minority voice here but I say again if you go too far from a normal layout you're going to appeal to a handful of geekhackers with esoteric typing habits rather than to the masses -- and I would hope this beautiful design is destined for the masses ;)


While I really like the design, this is not a keyboard for the masses.
It has no blinking lights, no multimedia keys, no flluff.
I would think this keyboard would appeal to people in the same way that the HHKB, Topre, Filco....keyboards do.
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: Chloe on Sat, 13 December 2008, 18:54:47
Quote from: webwit;14666
True if you don't change the defaults. But if I change the mouse settings when using a Compaq MX 11800, it works fine on my 1900x1200 (and I like my pointer real fast).


If I changed the mouse settings would it affect my other trackballs? I don't really need to get it working though.
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: Chloe on Sat, 13 December 2008, 18:59:26
Quote from: bigpook;14670
While I really like the design, this is not a keyboard for the masses.
It has no blinking lights, no multimedia keys, no flluff.
I would think this keyboard would appeal to people in the same way that the HHKB, Topre, Filco....keyboards do.


I think they should make rubber dome versions of these keyboards for people who like the styling but aren't really interested in the switch technology.
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: bigpook on Sat, 13 December 2008, 19:00:36
Quote from: Chloe;14674
I think they should make rubber dome versions of these keyboards for people who like the styling but aren't really interested in the switch technology.


What would rubber domes give you? Aside from a cost savings.
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: wellington1869 on Sat, 13 December 2008, 19:06:08
I think it will come down to lowpoly's vision of what he wants (and the marketing possibilities that his OEM manufacturer -- if he winds up with one -- wants to exploit).  Either way so long as there are multiple versions of this board, different market segments (from specialized to mass markets and anything in between) can be addressed (and all of us in those different niches can have something to buy that we're happy with).
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: wellington1869 on Sat, 13 December 2008, 19:09:45
After all, lowpoly may decide that what he wants is to sell it to five of his friends for whom he'll pick up a soldering gun and put the boards together in his basement and that will be that.

*shudder*  

;)
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: Chloe on Sat, 13 December 2008, 19:10:22
Quote from: bigpook;14677
What would rubber domes give you? Aside from a cost savings.


Nice looking, compact keyboards? :)
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: bigpook on Sat, 13 December 2008, 19:14:20
Quote from: Chloe;14681
Nice looking, compact keyboards? :)


: ) yeah, that would be true...
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: lowpoly on Sun, 14 December 2008, 14:26:50
Quote from: webwit;14661
lolz, i has can pimpt yer keyzbort !!!

Show Image
(http://geekhack.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=362&stc=1&d=1229214023)


Blasphemy, surely! Just as those bezel lovers! (it looks much better without).

It got the backspace, ~` solution from the HHKB. Two keys intentionally left blank as I didn't know what to put there by default - me, as a colemak user I like BS on the position of Caps Lock, but that's not very mainstream.
Well done. :) Doing the backspace change would have been hard to do without machinery and nothing to solder it to. But the main reason not to do it was that I like backspace and enter more apart. And I have backspace on Fn+space which I really, really like.

The trackball looks good there.

And I agree that CapsLock should be a blank key. Not sure if Cherry has it without the step. The middle row is different than the others. A couple of blank keys for the bottom row should be included anyway.

Quote from: Chloe;14663
Interesting location. I find small trackballs (like the one in my Compaq) too slow on big resolutions. I wonder if something like a Blackberry trackball could be added to the top of the space bar key with some firmware so fast movements would move it further.
Or like the one in the Apple Mighty Mouse. I thought about putting the mouse buttons directly into the space bar but decided against it because I feared that the added weight and cables might affect easy movement.

Quote from: Chloe;14674
I think they should make rubber dome versions of these keyboards for people who like the styling but aren't really interested in the switch technology.
From a sales POV definitely not a bad idea.

Quote from: wellington1869;14680
After all, lowpoly may decide that what he wants is to sell it to five of his friends for whom he'll pick up a soldering gun and put the boards together in his basement and that will be that.

*shudder*  

;)
I spent so much time on this, I'm not going to make another one by hand. So it's all or nothing. :)
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: wellington1869 on Sun, 14 December 2008, 14:43:04
Quote

I spent so much time on this, I'm not going to make another one by hand. So it's all or nothing

eeexcellent :)
Lowpoly,  honestly, just make sure that this board doesnt meet the same fate of all the  other boards that we all like on geekhack - difficult to find and buy because they've deliberately shot themselves in the foot by deliberately trying to appeal to a hyper-specialized demography or market.  Thats the self-limiting cycle I'd love to see your board eventually break out of. Geekhackers love your board, but dont limit yourself to the geekhacker market. All of our complaints of unicomp, dsi, etc have been their lack of imagination in marketing (and in not producing obvious variations). Thats what you should avoid! Think big with this one, please, I'm begging you-- otherwise yours will be merely another "neat" specialized keyboard that eventually geekhackers will be talking about saying "now why didnt he put in this and market to that? He would have sold a million more and secretaries everywhere would have benefited". Break out of that cycle of limited marketing imagination that all the good boards out there seem to be confined to.

my 2 cents :)
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: bhtooefr on Sun, 14 December 2008, 14:44:14
The problem is, every single variant will greatly increase the production costs, especially if there are PCB changes or case changes involved.
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: wellington1869 on Sun, 14 December 2008, 14:49:21
IMO the worldwide keyboard market is unimaginably huge (and growing! as the BRICs come online), and IMO, keyboard manufacturers even ones with great products, arent even making the slightest real effort exploit it.
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: bhtooefr on Sun, 14 December 2008, 14:51:42
The problem is, with the economy the way it is, even if he DOES market the hell out of the things (we're talking throwing more money than even Microsoft does at marketing one keyboard model,) and gets them in every store, the things won't sell that well.
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: wellington1869 on Sun, 14 December 2008, 14:53:46
Quote from: bhtooefr;14761
The problem is, every single variant will greatly increase the production costs, especially if there are PCB changes or case changes involved.


I think from a marketing pov, each variant is treated as a separate product, with its own cost/sales analysis. Also, just like starbucks will operate a store in Times Square even though it has no chance of being profitable, some variants will be necessary as "prestige" variants (like linux layouts or hhkb versions, all of whcih will have limited specialized uber-geek niche). So some variants may well lose money, but the whole product line benefits. The real money comes from the appeal of the brand, the whole product line, to the masses of ordinary users. Prestige is part of that marketing appeal, and if Apple has proved anything, prestige can be a powerful mass market booster. If many of the ordinary consumers realize for the first time why mechanical switches are different (product differentiation is a huge part of the marketing strategy, along with prestige) and begin using mechanical switches for the first time because of this board - everyone benefits.
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: bigpook on Sun, 14 December 2008, 14:54:32
I don't see this as a main stream keyboard. Its for a niche market, no?
If its produced and available I would think word of mouth would get the message out.
Keyboard geeks will find it if its out there : )
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: bhtooefr on Sun, 14 December 2008, 14:55:21
However, especially in this market, 99% of people are thinking, "why should I spend more than $10 on a keyboard? That $10 keyboard will do everything I need it to."

And, even in the mechanical switch market, you're competing against the Das Keyboard (which DOES have marketing behind it) and used Model Ms.

Also, being in a niche market isn't necessarily a bad thing. I think the way lowpoly is marketing is focusing on the niche, while not ignoring other markets (note the mention of never having to leave home row, so he's marketing to the ergonomic market some.)
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: wellington1869 on Sun, 14 December 2008, 14:57:15
Quote from: bigpook;14767
I don't see this as a main stream keyboard. Its for a niche market, no?


I guess I'm saying it ought to be both; both niche and mainstream markets are addressed with variations on the theme and brand, layout and switch options.  I'm saying he should think big like that, and I guess IMO the biggest mistake existing manufacturers are making is they're not thinking big at a time when the size of the overall market for their product is growing by leaps and bounds.  IMO anyway.
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: bhtooefr on Sun, 14 December 2008, 14:58:30
And I think that if you're not based in China, making cheap-ass rubber dome keyboards, your market is shrinking, not growing.

Let's face it, this is a luxury product we're talking about.
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: wellington1869 on Sun, 14 December 2008, 15:10:05
Quote from: bhtooefr;14768
However, especially in this market, 99% of people are thinking, "why should I spend more than $10 on a keyboard? That $10 keyboard will do everything I need it to."


I guess I disagree with this on two levels.

1) Lets say what you say is the case. But if statistically the market for keyboards is huge anyway and growing on top of that, and if most consumers are buying $10 boards, then the approach a keyboard manufacturer should take, is to educate the consumer. This is what Apple did so successfully.  In marketing circles there is an old story: A wealthy shoe manufacturer had two sons and he was trying to decide which son would inherit the business. He sent both sons to India, telling them to report back on the conditions in India and the possibilities of their company expanding to India. The sons go to India and discover that among the masses very few people wear shoes in India. The first son comes back: "Dad, no one wears shoes in India, we dont have a chance there. I recommend we dont expand there." The second one comes back: "Dad, no one wears shoes in India - we should immediately expand into India."  Guess which one inherited the company?

2) My second response to "people are happy with $10 boards" is: I dont think this is true. I think this is a bit of a myth. Take my secretary for instance (ie, the secretary in the office where I work). She's a fairly ordinary secretary as far as secretaries go. She's fairly clueless about technology, doesnt much care about technical things. Like everyone else in the office she gets a computer upgrade every 3 years or so. I've helped her and countless other secretaries upgrade their machines when they're buying new equipment. And my experience is that she is in fact hyper concious of the perceived quality of her accessories. That includes keyboard and mouse. She has always bought a keyboard that looks good and that she thinks will be comfortable, type well, etc etc. Even she has done compare and contrast between keyboards, talks about them, etc. She makes her living too in front of the keyboard. She merely lacks information. She sticks to membrane versions because that is what is thrown in front of her at best buy and staples, not because she couldnt recognize - and desire - and understand - the benefits of mechanical switches and better layouts. She would appreciate them if a manufacturer made the attempt to reach into the places where she shops -- catalogs and B&M stores.


So I disagree on both counts. First if the market isnt being addressed, lowpoly should address that market.  Second if information on product differentiation isnt out there for the masses, lowpoly should put it out there for the masses. Thats the right response, IMO, not assuming that interest isnt there, or market isnt there. Information makes the market out of thin air. In this case it isnt even entirely out of thin air; its an existing and growing market as millions in the BRIC nations come online. Thats the whole secret sauce of capitalism, isnt it?
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: lowpoly on Sun, 14 December 2008, 15:12:23
Quote from: wellington1869;14760
eeexcellent :)
Lowpoly,  honestly, just make sure that this board doesnt meet the same fate of all the  other boards that we all like on geekhack - difficult to find and buy because they've deliberately shot themselves in the foot by deliberately trying to appeal to a hyper-specialized demography or market.  Thats the self-limiting cycle I'd love to see your board eventually break out of. Geekhackers love your board, but dont limit yourself to the geekhacker market. All of our complaints of unicomp, dsi, etc have been their lack of imagination in marketing (and in not producing obvious variations). Thats what you should avoid! Think big with this one, please, I'm begging you-- otherwise yours will be merely another "neat" specialized keyboard that eventually geekhackers will be talking about saying "now why didnt he put in this and market to that? He would have sold a million more and secretaries everywhere would have benefited". Break out of that cycle of limited marketing imagination that all the good boards out there seem to be confined to.

my 2 cents :)

Quote from: bhtooefr;14761
The problem is, every single variant will greatly increase the production costs, especially if there are PCB changes or case changes involved.

Variants should be added one at a time. But it may be good to think about it even before you do the first. Like J.K. Rowling knew the complete Harry Potter plot before she started on the first book. :)

I'm currently thinking about the case. A machined aluminum version will be nicer but more expensive. Saving production costs by using rubber domes or scissors may just make no sense if you have an aluminum case keeping the price somewhat high.

Edit: Added the quotes after which I clicked "reply".
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: wellington1869 on Sun, 14 December 2008, 15:18:22
Quote from: lowpoly;14773
Variants should be added one at a time.


Sure, but IMO there are four, maybe five, variants that seem immediately obvious. A couple of those address uber-geek markets (linux versions, hhkb versions). A couple of those address wider markets (we know alps and cherries are popular, so alp versions of the pcb and cherries versions). One might addresses widest market in layout (normal layout). One might address mass market (rubber dome version).  These variants seem obvious right at the get go. Further versions can come out as other opportunities are identified.
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: bhtooefr on Sun, 14 December 2008, 15:22:06
Alright, how about this... you launch with an aluminum case, Cherry blue (clicky sells to geeks that don't know about the various switches, which is many of them) version, just like this.

That's your top of the line model.

Expand downwards from there.

However, I think if you're going that angle, a rubber dome version might not make sense, unless you're going for this condensed layout on every model, which won't hit mass market well anyway.

The TrackPoint should be optional, though, on models below your initial "halo" model. Quite a few people hate TrackPoints.

(Of course, look at the Happy Hacking Keyboard. They've got the halo model of all halo models, the Professional HG Japan.)
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: wellington1869 on Sun, 14 December 2008, 15:26:30
Quote from: bhtooefr;14765
The problem is, with the economy the way it is, even if he DOES market the hell out of the things (we're talking throwing more money than even Microsoft does at marketing one keyboard model,) and gets them in every store, the things won't sell that well.


Personally I think that the fact that keyboards havent been fettishized for the masses yet, and remain a fetish only for uber-geeks, represents one of the most historically huge marketing opportunities in history. We are talking about a product that literally hundreds of millions of workers around the world sit in front of for 8 hours a day, use 8 hours a day, and is the first thing they see after drinking their coffee in the morning, and the last thing they see when they turn off their computer at the end of the day.  And such a product hasnt been fettishized for the masses yet? What a historic marketing opportunity.  Apple fettishized the lowly mp3 player; apple fettishized the cell phone, apple fettishized the laptop and even the mouse for a while. We need not be apple; the marketing principle is the same. Apple went approached a product - the mp3 player - that millions and millions of people already owned, were already using, it had a market already. What they did was make it neat and prestigious and they capture enormous parts of that market for good.  And yes, they did it by having a neat product (which lowpoly has) PLUS throwing gobs of money at advertizing and product differentiation for the masses - which lowpoly needs to do next.

The lack of fettishization of the mp3 player was an opportunity, an opportunity for advertizing, prestige, product differentiation. Apple threw gazillions at marketing and ads for something taht no one had marketed in a focused way like that before. The exact same opening exists for keyboards. All it takes is will. Millions want a better keyboard - even if they dont realize it yet. Exact same situation as existed with mp3 players.
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: bhtooefr on Sun, 14 December 2008, 15:29:03
OK, well, one thing is, what is the primary niche we're going for? (There can be multiple answers to that question.)

Compact? (Which I think might be it - note the "type-in-style" domain)

Ability to never have to leave the home row?

Mechanical keyswitches?

Programmability isn't a good niche to go for, nobody cares about that.
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: wellington1869 on Sun, 14 December 2008, 15:35:28
Quote from: bhtooefr;14771


Let's face it, this is a luxury product we're talking about.


So is everything apple sells, but they are  simultaneously  mass market products.
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: lowpoly on Sun, 14 December 2008, 15:42:48
Quote from: bigpook;14767
I don't see this as a main stream keyboard. Its for a niche market, no?
The layout makes it a niche product. You have to educate yourself to use it. The mass won't do that. An optional docking station might be nice that adds the F-key row and cursor block. I think I mentioned this one before.

Quote from: bhtooefr;14775
That's your top of the line model.

Expand downwards from there.
Yes and the other way round would be hard unless you're in China.

Leaving the Trackpoint away wouldn't be a difficult variant.
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: lowpoly on Sun, 14 December 2008, 15:52:46
Quote from: wellington1869
Personally I think that the fact that keyboards havent been fettishized for the masses yet, and remain a fetish only for uber-geeks, represents one of the most historically huge marketing opportunities in history.
When I think about marketing,  those executives come to my mind that use a $400 fountain pen to do some signatures, then move back to their $5 keyboard for the rest of the day.

Email brought back the keyboard for people who wouldn't have written a line 30 years ago.
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: bhtooefr on Sun, 14 December 2008, 16:26:08
Also, I already asked it, but it wasn't answered...

What is this brand's niche? Obviously, the halo board (the one that epitomizes the brand) is the one in this thread, but what's supposed to make this brand special?

If it's compact boards, then making a full-size 104-key board wouldn't make any sense.

If it's minimalist style, a full-size 104-key board with the same style of case may actually make sense.

If it's a high-quality typing experience, rubber domes wouldn't make any sense, even if we were aiming for the mass market.

Those are just a couple examples (and, there may be multiple niches.)
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: wellington1869 on Sun, 14 December 2008, 16:44:23
Quote

What is this brand's niche? Obviously, the halo board (the one that epitomizes the brand) is the one in this thread, but what's supposed to make this brand special?


I guess I'm saying that what makes this brand special a) that it is a neat design with mechanical switches AND b) the varieties it comes in and modularity it brings.

Its niche is that - unlike every other specialty mechanical board out there - it will not confine itself to a niche.

On the contrary,  it will be designed from the ground up, and from the get go to accomodate the most popular switches and layouts that we know of. It will be designed from the ground up and from the get go to be as modular as possible.

So this means not only do we have a set of prestige/halo boards and mass market boards, but we make modules and customization as easy and interchangeable as possible. (Thus immediately creating a secondary market for accessories-- and immediately creating an "upgrade path" for those who buy the cheaper version and add features to it later on).

So for instance, from the ground up it should be designed so that, (just as some examples) the following features should be upgradeable/downsizeable:
-trackpoint should be plug-in plug-out, and available as a post-purchase add-on option (in addition to being already included on the prestige versions).
-usb ports should be a module that pop in/pops out. (similarly, while being already included in prestige versions).
-numpad, arrow keys, and other options should clip to the side (either left side or right side, multi compatible). other modules we can come up with or third parties will offer (thus further enhancing the appeal of the board). This might include game controllers, calculators, trackpads, etc etc)
-dip switches to control certain things like control-capslock swap.

Having this modularity reduces the number of versions of the *main* board that needs to be offered. Want a fullsize? buy the numpad and arrow cluster modules, end of story.  

Its niche is that it fits into multiple niches, designed to do so from the ground up, on certain obvious things that other manufacturers have already done, but they havent taken those features to their full logical extent, but this board will, and will be a one-stop-shop mechanical board with huge accessory market that third parties will fill and that we can fill too - if we design it that way from the get go.  

As with modularity, so with varieties of switches and layout -- thus offering options that no one else is offering on a neat looking mechanical switch board.   Refusing to be pigeonholed because unlike all those other manufacturers, we would (from the get go) recognize the keyboard market as utterly untapped and we'd be willing to tap it with a single product line with modularity and interchangeability and upgradeability and customizability.  Thats its niche, IMO. And that makes it different from Das, unicomp, DSI (whose modular board is a move in the right direction but they'll never exploit it for what its truly worth), etc.  Filco too has the right idea, coming out with a new variant (the white alps) of its tenkeyless. Again thats the right direction, and the direction we need to push this board in. Variants and interchangeability and upgradability - for a basic board which is already very appealing but needs to stand out more from the competition. And we do that by doing what all these other boards are not: mass marketing, fetishize the keyboard for the masses.
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: bhtooefr on Sun, 14 December 2008, 16:52:02
Well, I was more asking lowpoly what it was. ;)

But, that is an interesting approach... that requires a redesign of the whole thing to make it TRULY modular. (Or, just making the USB hub mandatory, and running cables into it for the modules.)
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: wellington1869 on Sun, 14 December 2008, 16:54:35
Quote from: lowpoly;14779
The layout makes it a niche product. You have to educate yourself to use it. The mass won't do that. An optional docking station might be nice that adds the F-key row and cursor block. I think I mentioned this one before.

I agree the function keys as a dock (or modular plug in) would be fine; but alternately for the more mass market oriented versions, just make it a normal layout (with an additional F-row built in, like the smk's). So again versions will be the key, IMO, to its appeal, whether thats achieved via modularity or just pcb versions.
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: wellington1869 on Sun, 14 December 2008, 16:57:15
Quote from: bhtooefr;14785


But, that is an interesting approach... that requires a redesign of the whole thing to make it TRULY modular.


ya, I guess thats what I'm asking (begging, really) lowpoly to consider from stage one, from the ground up, from the get go, and thus ensure for himself a truly unique product, a product which is not just visually neat, but functionally truly differentiated, and which will make expansion into new market niches much simpler later on.  

He has an opportunity to do this, build this philosophy into the board, precisely because this board isnt made yet.  And that --opportunity-- is the huge advantage he has right now versus every other manufacturer out there, IMO. (While addressing a long standing set of complaints geekhackers have always had, about unavailability of the particular version or variant they wanted to buy because no one is making it.)

This kind of modularity built into the design from the ground up ends that problem for the uber-geeks for good; and at the same time it opens up easier entry into a variety of mass markets.  Its win-win, and he has the chance to do it because he has just begun, and because he is part of this community that is so plugged into what is needed and what it takes.
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: lowpoly on Sun, 14 December 2008, 17:59:57
Quote from: bhtooefr;14785
Well, I was more asking lowpoly what it was. ;)

I actually have to think about that. The only thing I'd really like to keep is the smallest footprint possible, be it this version or a bigger one without numpad. Others would be typing experience and design.

Never having to leave the home row is a feature of this board but might not apply to a product line. And while I think the ergonomic value is there I'm not sure it is proven. So it probably boils down to design and typing experience. That doesn't sound like a finished plan.

Quote from: wellington
modularity

I like that, I actually thought about doing a cursor block in the same design that could be snapped to the current case.

What you describe requires some major design changes making the board more expensive in the short run. Or, to avoid this, you need to install a much bigger operation with serious long term goals.
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: wellington1869 on Sun, 14 December 2008, 20:28:44
kensington slimblade (http://www.amazon.com/Kensington-SlimBlade-Notebook-Wireless-K72279US/dp/B000VE2RQA/ref=pd_bbs_sr_2?ie=UTF8&s=electronics&qid=1229308121&sr=8-2), IIRC, uses simple magnets to attach its modules to each other. Wouldnt need any major casing changes and is pretty elegant.
But ya, I'm definitely suggesting taking a large range view here ;) (ie, you have a universally acclaimed design here, I'm just saying dont limit your market artificially the way every other mechanical board manufacturer seems to have done)

(btw, microsoft sidewinder (http://www.amazon.com/Microsoft-AGB-00001-SideWinder-X6-Keyboard/dp/B001DWI4FM/ref=pd_bbs_sr_11?ie=UTF8&s=videogames&qid=1229308600&sr=8-11) keyboard is another modular one).
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: bhtooefr on Sun, 14 December 2008, 20:36:00
However, it has a bezel.

The bezel-less design is part of what makes this keyboard so distinctive, and it would be quite difficult to implement with modules, unless you had unsightly edge connectors or something...
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: wellington1869 on Sun, 14 December 2008, 20:43:26
Quote from: bhtooefr;14802
However, it has a bezel.

The bezel-less design is part of what makes this keyboard so distinctive, and it would be quite difficult to implement with modules, unless you had unsightly edge connectors or something...



lowpoly's board has a low bezel too tho, the sides could be lightly magnetic. That way there's no need for unsightly connectors either. Another option is for connectors underneath the board/numpad rather than on the side (as clips).
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: bhtooefr on Sun, 14 December 2008, 20:48:41
Well, also, note that his board has literally NO space on the sides. There would have to be some form of unsightly spacer at the very least.
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: wellington1869 on Sun, 14 December 2008, 20:59:46
Quote from: bhtooefr;14804
Well, also, note that his board has literally NO space on the sides. There would have to be some form of unsightly spacer at the very least.


it does have space on the sides, below the keys level, doesnt it?
and a clip from underneath could work too, which wouldnt show up on the sides at all.
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: bhtooefr on Sun, 14 December 2008, 21:19:48
Below the key level it does, but then you'll have keycaps touching, which doesn't work. ;)
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: wellington1869 on Mon, 15 December 2008, 00:12:38
Quote from: bhtooefr;14809
Below the key level it does, but then you'll have keycaps touching, which doesn't work. ;)


well then a connector underneath which spaces them slightly ;)
You have to look at "how can it work" rather than "how can it not" ;)
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: lowpoly on Mon, 15 December 2008, 04:59:12
I already thought about magnets clipping the modules together, however, it might not hold up when you pick the whole assembly up. Like when you have guests and somebody decides to move your 'board around resulting in a part falling to the floor. So, something like a docking station (with F1-F12 and cursor block) might provide more stability.

Wellington, do you think about F-keys as a module and cursor as another? That would leave a hole where F-keys and cursor block meet.

There are a few millimeters space left and right. Should be enough for magnets, maybe even clips.

Spacers could come with the add-on modules. Could get flimsy though.
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: bhtooefr on Mon, 15 December 2008, 10:44:18
I just had a new idea, that would require that the case be widened to accomodate it, but I think it'd work OK, as long as you used the right connectors.

(And, the devices on the sides would end up having bezels.)

(http://bhtooefr.ath.cx/images/dockingmethod.PNG)

Sorry about the poor quality, but the bottom part shows the interface. In that, I'm using an edge connector, but it doesn't have to be that. Keyboard is in black, numpad (or whatever you're docking) is in red.

Note that the other device uses its own case to cover the interface.

You may want to do things upside down of how I did that, that way the slot doesn't get filled with dust, though. (That is, mount the slot on the peripheral, not on the keyboard.)
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: wellington1869 on Mon, 15 December 2008, 10:49:07
Quote from: lowpoly;14856
I already thought about magnets clipping the modules together, however, it might not hold up when you pick the whole assembly up. Like when you have guests and somebody decides to move your 'board around resulting in a part falling to the floor. So, something like a docking station (with F1-F12 and cursor block) might provide more stability.


falling apart when moved may actually be okay -- the logitech dinovo was exactly like that and it sold like a blockbuster. I owned one of those and I didnt really find it inconvenient since 99 percent of the time it just sat on the desktop. The spacesaver keyboard part of the dinovo wasnt physically attached to the numpad/calculator that it came with, they just sat side by side on the desktop (and *looked* as if they were connected), but you could move each one separately. It might be something to consider at least for v1. They were each connected wirelessly (and independently) to the usb wireless receiver. That would be one way to solve the problem of "joining" them I guess. Even if the board/modules were wired instead of wireless, you could still do the same thing. True that that wouldnt be the same as a rigid board, but people would know that up front.  

Also true that some kind of docking station may work, but what are you envisioning for that? Wouldnt that add height to the board?

Quote

Wellington, do you think about F-keys as a module and cursor as another? That would leave a hole where F-keys and cursor block meet.

if you have connectors for the modules (instead of independent wired or wireless connections) then yes there will have to be some kind of hole for the connector -- But even here I think there may be ways to minimize the aesthetics of it so it remains sleek. For instance: a ribbon connector could connect from underneath and minimize the need to put a hole on the side of the modules and board. If you wanted more rigidity it would be threaded thru a spacer that clips to the underside of board/module.

This could work for F keys too (tho for F keys I still think that 2 versions of the board would be best, one hhkb version that uses Fn key, and a normal version that just has them built in normally). So the modules would really be more of a left-side and right-side issue.

Quote

There are a few millimeters space left and right. Should be enough for magnets, maybe even clips.


what do you think of ribbon cables from underneath, connecting left/right modules to the board? Is that a possible connector that could be used here? If I remember from pics of the g80 3000 (or one of those cherry boards that someone on geekhack took apart), the numpad was connected just by a ribbon cable. The clip that its threaded thru could posible hold the module/board together relatively rigidly - or just leave them magnetic and take-apart able (you could even dispense with the magnets like the dinovo and have them put-next-to-each-other-able.)

Lots of possibilities; I think whatever you do for the prototype though, the OEM manufacturer will likely have other ideas too.
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: lowpoly on Mon, 15 December 2008, 14:53:18
Quote from: bhtooefr;14877
Note that the other device uses its own case to cover the interface.

This would probably be the most cost effective solution. You'd still need to add wiring. Or use a usb port. I'd like to keep the small footprint though. At least as long as possible. :)

Quote from: wellington1869;14878
falling apart when moved may actually be okay -- the logitech dinovo was exactly like that and it sold like a blockbuster.

Then separate cursor, numpad and fkey blocks might be fine, at least for a start.

Quote from: wellington1869;14878
Also true that some kind of docking station may work, but what are you envisioning for that? Wouldnt that add height to the board?

It would clip to two sides instead of one.

Quote from: wellington1869;14878
if you have connectors for the modules (instead of independent wired or wireless connections) then yes there will have to be some kind of hole for the connector -- But even here I think there may be ways to minimize the aesthetics of it so it remains sleek. For instance: a ribbon connector could connect from underneath and minimize the need to put a hole on the side of the modules and board. If you wanted more rigidity it would be threaded thru a spacer that clips to the underside of board/module.  

The connection will be difficult. Let's try without wireless. Spring contacts (?) might work. Or small connectors (probably the best).

But there was a misunderstanding regarding the 'hole'. I was thinking of this (the red rectangle is the hole):

(http://img510.imageshack.us/img510/8035/holeqw1.gif)

Should there be a ScrollLock module that should fit in there? It would be too expensive and nobody would buy it.

Quote from: wellington1869;14878
This could work for F keys too (tho for F keys I still think that 2 versions of the board would be best, one hhkb version that uses Fn key, and a normal version that just has them built in normally). So the modules would really be more of a left-side and right-side issue.

That would add another pcb. In that case I'd prefer just a second version without numpad. Which might be the cheapest solution too.

Quote from: wellington1869;14878
what do you think of ribbon cables from underneath, connecting left/right modules to the board? Is that a possible connector that could be used here? If I remember from pics of the g80 3000 (or one of those cherry boards that someone on geekhack took apart), the numpad was connected just by a ribbon cable. The clip that its threaded thru could posible hold the module/board together relatively rigidly - or just leave them magnetic and take-apart able (you could even dispense with the magnets like the dinovo and have them put-next-to-each-other-able.)

A connector with the ribbon cable inside the 'board would be the way to go I think.

Here's a sketch for what I'd consider a good solution from a design POV:

(http://img118.imageshack.us/img118/9240/caseadaptercg4.gif)

It adds an adapter to connect the module to the keyboard. Would work on either side and supply the necessary distance between 'board and module. The wide bottom of the adapter could even contain some locking mechanism. And the connectors. This wouldn't work if the bottom of the keyboard weren't as slanted as it is.
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: wellington1869 on Mon, 15 December 2008, 15:07:06
you are a master of design.  there is no way a bank wont fund this if you stick these pics on a powerpoint presentation. I'm not even kidding :)
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: itlnstln on Mon, 15 December 2008, 15:10:52
Damn, too bad you live in Germany.  I would love to work with you on a design for a split-ergo 'board.
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: lowpoly on Mon, 15 December 2008, 15:41:52
Quote from: wellington1869;14926
you are a master of design.  there is no way a bank wont fund this if you stick these pics on a powerpoint presentation. I'm not even kidding :)

Thanks :). However, thinking about it, it will get way too expensive this way.  If you want a keyboard without numpad you'd need the alpha part, the adapter, the cursor block and the F-key block. Four relatively complex parts.

It might cost at least twice as much as a single board combining all this.

Quote from: itlnstln;14929
Damn, too bad you live in Germany.  I would love to work with you on a design for a split-ergo 'board.

:)
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: wellington1869 on Mon, 15 December 2008, 16:51:26
Keep in mind you dont need to produce this final final result in your basement! All you need is to whet the funders (and OEM's) appetite. What you have right now will do that. The rest is what you present as your "vision" for the rest of the line and the marketing strategy and plan.  (after all they're going to ask you, "how will you be different from the rest?". And thats when you tell them what the market right now is missing, and how you're going to fill those needs with this whole line of boards).

Quote

Should there be a ScrollLock module that should fit in there? It would be too expensive and nobody would buy it.


I think you should handle scroll lock etc exactly the same way that a half dozen of boards out there in production right now that have separate numpads handle it. If you look at dinovo for example, numpad doesnt have scroll lock etc. The functions keys are all just made to fit onto the spacesaver board. Same with smk, by the way.
Again, you dont need to build that out right now. The OEM will design that when they transfer your design onto their own software and manufacturing equipment.  You should just go with exactly what you have right now, I think. The rest is the "vision" for the line.
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: wellington1869 on Mon, 15 December 2008, 17:11:49
I think you should see if costar is interested - they already have experience with the multiple pcb's (and multiple types of switches) on the Filco line.  
(and if they're also producing the das, then they also have experience with a random keyboard geek deciding to market his keyboard design and having a successful product as a result :)
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: kodos96 on Mon, 15 December 2008, 18:40:58
whoa, I can't believe I didn't notice this thread till just now. I bow down in awe of what you've achieved.

All this needs is to be ergo split and you have a perfect keyboard. Oh, and move the trackpoint over to HJN - am I alone in that desire? It's always seemed to me like it would work better there.

Some questions lowpoly :

-Where did the mouse buttons come from? Are they original from the donor board (they don't look familiar), or did you custom fab them? If so, how?

-How did you make the aluminum enclosure? Do you have access to a machine shop, or did you manage it with home tools?
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: bhtooefr on Mon, 15 December 2008, 18:44:51
Well, on a non-ergo board, GHB works perfectly. (No jokes about date rape. :p)

I'm right-handed, so HJN would work for me, but for a lefty, FGV would be optimal.

(Although, I occasionally use the TrackPoint with my left hand, so GHB is perfect on a non-ergo board, which I prefer.)
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: kodos96 on Mon, 15 December 2008, 18:50:54
Oh, and on the issue of sourcing trackpoint hardware for if it ever goes into production.... I may be wrong, but my impression is that the main thing that separates genuine IBM trackpoints from the clones is negative inertia, which IBM has a patent on. Personally, I find non-IBM trackpoints completely useless... so to actually manufacture the thing, you'd need to either get IBM to sell you trackpoint modules, or build it in a country that doesn't honor software patents ;)
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: bhtooefr on Mon, 15 December 2008, 18:54:24
I can use non-IBM pointing sticks, it just takes some getting used to. But, yes, it would be a good idea to contact IBM to license the technology. Other companies have done it before - see the Toshiba AccuPoint, a licensed TrackPoint.
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: kodos96 on Mon, 15 December 2008, 19:06:37
Quote from: bhtooefr;14962
Well, on a non-ergo board, GHB works perfectly. (No jokes about date rape. :p)

I'm right-handed, so HJN would work for me, but for a lefty, FGV would be optimal.

(Although, I occasionally use the TrackPoint with my left hand, so GHB is perfect on a non-ergo board, which I prefer.)


GHB *works*, it just seems like it would work *better* at HJN, with just slightly less finger reach. Being able to reach with the left finger would be nice though... so maybe TWO trackpoints, one at HJN, one at FGV (if I recall, there was actually a document from the designers of the trackpoint at an IBM lab somewhere talking about a prototype they did with multiple trackpoints)..

The more I think about it, the more convinced I am that when it comes to hardcore geekhack type people, there's never going to be a keyboard manufactured that makes us all happy, no matter how niche, because we all have our own little quirky preferences like this... what we really need is a 'keyboard construction kit' - a kit of modular, lego-like pieces that you can plug into each other and build your own custom keyboard... or a place like emachineshop.com where you can CAD out your own device and have it custom fabbed for you....
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: kodos96 on Mon, 15 December 2008, 19:08:28
Quote from: bhtooefr;14966
I can use non-IBM pointing sticks, it just takes some getting used to. But, yes, it would be a good idea to contact IBM to license the technology. Other companies have done it before - see the Toshiba AccuPoint, a licensed TrackPoint.


I wasn't aware of them.... I'd seen them before, but just assumed they sucked as much as the alps ones they put in Dells.... does Toshiba still make laptops that include these?
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: bhtooefr on Mon, 15 December 2008, 20:19:17
The Tecra M10 and A10 have it. (At least I'm pretty sure it's still an AccuPoint...)

For a while, my main computer was a Toshiba Satellite Pro 405CS - a Pentium 75 machine with an AccuPoint I - Toshiba's licensed clone of the TrackPoint III, IIRC. Yes, it had negative intertia. :)

Edit: Yes, it is an AccuPoint II, so... they've still got a license for it. :)
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: lowpoly on Tue, 16 December 2008, 05:00:43
Quote from: wellington1869;14959
I think you should see if costar is interested - they already have experience with the multiple pcb's (and multiple types of switches) on the Filco line.  
(and if they're also producing the das, then they also have experience with a random keyboard geek deciding to market his keyboard design and having a successful product as a result :)

True. I'd like to know if anybody here could live with plastic cases?

Thanks for the comments on marketing/funding.

Quote from: kodos96;14961
-Where did the mouse buttons come from? Are they original from the donor board (they don't look familiar), or did you custom fab them? If so, how?

-How did you make the aluminum enclosure? Do you have access to a machine shop, or did you manage it with home tools?

The mouse buttons are custom made. It's just a small U-shaped piece of Aluminum. I added some Aluminum epoxy putty to add volume. Then "brushed" the surface and painted clear/black. They're attached to the pcb by a simple wire.

The case was done with hand tools, a Dremel and a power drill. I did the bends with an old toy vise I still had. Then used the same expoxy putty mentioned above to glue the corners. Tough stuff, it survived the 3 ft fall without cracking. Then polyester putty for the fine gaps, tool marks etc. Then grounding, filler, paint, clear coat. I fit in a small part of the usb hub case to have the holes for the connectors.

Quote
Trackpoint

Two Trackpoints may be easier for pointing. However you have to access keys across them, the H for example. Could interrupt the flow.

I know who the OEM manufacturer of the IBM Trackpoints is. They just don't answer my emails. :mad: I'm going to call their Switzerland office during the next days. In case everything works out.
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: bhtooefr on Tue, 16 December 2008, 10:42:06
I'll note that I'm fine with a plastic case.
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: itlnstln on Tue, 16 December 2008, 11:44:55
Quote from: bhtooefr;15003
I'll note that I'm fine with a plastic case.


Oh, c'mon!  Don't cheap out now!  J/K :)


But you better put a 10 lb. lead weight in the bottom of it.
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: kodos96 on Tue, 16 December 2008, 12:14:05
Quote from: bhtooefr;14973
The Tecra M10 and A10 have it. (At least I'm pretty sure it's still an AccuPoint...)

For a while, my main computer was a Toshiba Satellite Pro 405CS - a Pentium 75 machine with an AccuPoint I - Toshiba's licensed clone of the TrackPoint III, IIRC. Yes, it had negative intertia. :)

Edit: Yes, it is an AccuPoint II, so... they've still got a license for it. :)


Oh cool... I hope to buy a laptop at some point in the future... its good to know I have an option other than a thinkpad to consider.
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: kodos96 on Tue, 16 December 2008, 12:20:54
Quote from: lowpoly;14993
The case was done with hand tools, a Dremel and a power drill. I did the bends with an old toy vise I still had.


Sweet... my Dremel gave up the ghost long ago, but I have a new one on my christimas wish list (for hacking my Evolution)....

Out of curiosity, how many hours of labor would you estimate you put into this thing in total?
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: kodos96 on Tue, 16 December 2008, 12:35:02
Quote from: lowpoly;14993
Two Trackpoints may be easier for pointing. However you have to access keys across them, the H for example. Could interrupt the flow.


A lot of people I've talked to cite this as the reason they don't like trackpoints... but personally I find that having it there helps my accuracy on the keys surrounding it, in the same way as the bumps on the F and J keys to help your fingers find home row without looking.
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: kodos96 on Tue, 16 December 2008, 12:37:30
Quote from: lowpoly;14993
Two Trackpoints may be easier for pointing. However you have to access keys across them, the H for example. Could interrupt the flow.


Oh wait, I see what you're saying - that it would be worse with HJN/GFV cause you'd be required to reach OVER it to hit keys with correct touch-typing fingers.... that's an interesting point.

As a test, I just tried typing on a trackpoint board with my hands shifted over to emulate having the trackpoint at HJN - it didn't seem to be a problem for me.
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: lowpoly on Tue, 16 December 2008, 13:43:40
Quote from: kodos96;15010
Out of curiosity, how many hours of labor would you estimate you put into this thing in total?

I have no idea but that should be a three digit number. There was a lot of trial and error involved. Worst time killer was having to paint the case again.

Quote from: kodos96;15012
As a test, I just tried typing on a trackpoint board with my hands shifted over to emulate having the trackpoint at HJN - it didn't seem to be a problem for me.

But you have short travel keys like scissors?
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: wellington1869 on Wed, 17 December 2008, 03:29:42
lowpoly, you need one of these (http://www.oobject.com/category/video-list-of-3d-printers-in-action/) "rapid prototyping" machines ;)
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: kodos96 on Wed, 17 December 2008, 12:26:45
Quote from: lowpoly;15022
But you have short travel keys like scissors?


I have both, but I did the aforementioned test on a laptop board - just tried again on my spacesaver trackpoint, and you're right, it is a bit more of an issue on full size keys - hitting 'H' results in coming into contact with the trackpoint... It didn't actually bother me, or prevent me from hitting the key successfully, but if it had actually been plugged in it probably would have caused the pointer to wobble on every 'H'. Obviously I won't know until I actually try it on a live board, but I don't think it would be annoying enough to change my mind that it would be better off that way.

Interestingly, it actually seemed like less of an issue if it was positioned even one step further to the right, at JNM, and it would require ZERO reach to get to it from there, so maybe that's worth trying.
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: bhtooefr on Wed, 17 December 2008, 12:31:59
UIJ would actually be a better position than JNM - moving up is always easier than moving down.
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: kodos96 on Wed, 17 December 2008, 12:52:26
Quote from: wellington1869;15109
lowpoly, you need one of these (http://www.oobject.com/category/video-list-of-3d-printers-in-action/) "rapid prototyping" machines ;)


You might have been kidding, but I actually think that this kind of thing might be the way to go for those of us with extreme keyboard/input device fetishes. Rapid prototypers/fab's with sufficient resolution for the kind of thing we'd need are way too expensive (things like fab@home are showing some promise, and getting better all the time, but currently not capable of fabbing anything that doesn't look like it was made by hand with a hot glue gun) But there are 'rent-a-fab' places online where you can upload a CAD of your design and they'll fab it for you on high-end hardware. Some of them will even print PCBs, source parts, and do assembly... basically act as an ultra-low-volume (down to a single unit) OEM.... for a price of course - nowhere near as low as the amortized cost of even a low-volume run on a real assembly line, but the sense I've gotten (they won't quote you a price without a specific design, but I've seen some prices people have been quoted on other things of similar complexity) is that the price is "reasonable", as in the same kind of price range you'd pay for "specialty" hardware (the kind designed to be paid for by your insurance company).

It seems like this might be an interesting thing to pursue as a path to getting a device manufactured and marketed (if you can't get an investor interested in your design otherwise)... you could manufacture in low volume (or even build-to-order), sell at "specialty" prices, and if enough people are willing to buy at those prices, it would demonstrate the existence of a market for your product, at which point you could send off your design to a normal OEM for a real production run.
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: kodos96 on Wed, 17 December 2008, 12:53:59
Quote from: bhtooefr;15146
UIJ would actually be a better position than JNM - moving up is always easier than moving down.


Yeah, that'd work too.
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: wellington1869 on Wed, 17 December 2008, 13:05:59
Quote from: kodos96;15147
You might have been kidding, but I actually think that this kind of thing might be the way to go for those of us with extreme keyboard/input device fetishes.


I  would love to have one of those in my basement :)
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: wellington1869 on Wed, 17 December 2008, 23:59:49
lowpoly, I posted these links elsewhere (and you've probably seen these), but for a design guy I imagine you'd be interested in stuff like this:


Three kinds of moldable plastic if you want to mold your own parts:  

plastic pellets called "shapelock" (http://www.kk.org/cooltools/archives/000623.php)

"metal clay" (http://www.kk.org/cooltools/archives/000181.php) (looks like silver after its dried)

"magic-sculp" (http://www.kk.org/cooltools/archives/000676.php)
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: lowpoly on Sat, 20 December 2008, 16:28:13
Sorry for abandoning this thread, been down with the flu.

Quote from: wellington1869;15109
lowpoly, you need one of these (http://www.oobject.com/category/video-list-of-3d-printers-in-action/) "rapid prototyping" machines ;)

That would be great. :)

Actually, something like http://www.emachineshop.com/ (had been mentioned here before) might work really well for metal cases.

I have to start comparing prices. For pcbs as well.

Quote from: kodos96;15145
Interestingly, it actually seemed like less of an issue if it was positioned even one step further to the right, at JNM, and it would require ZERO reach to get to it from there, so maybe that's worth trying.

Quote from: bhtooefr;15146
UIJ would actually be a better position than JNM - moving up is always easier than moving down.

Or JKM and DFC. FCV and JNM could work as home row nipples.

Quote from: wellington1869;15197
lowpoly, I posted these links elsewhere (and you've probably seen these), but for a design guy I imagine you'd be interested in stuff like this:


Three kinds of moldable plastic if you want to mold your own parts:  

plastic pellets called "shapelock" (http://www.kk.org/cooltools/archives/000623.php)

"metal clay" (http://www.kk.org/cooltools/archives/000181.php) (looks like silver after its dried)

"magic-sculp" (http://www.kk.org/cooltools/archives/000676.php)

I remember magic-sculp back from my sculpture days. Didn't use it myself though. Thanks for the links.
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: wellington1869 on Sat, 20 December 2008, 17:25:06
Quote from: lowpoly;15578

Actually, something like http://www.emachineshop.com/ (had been mentioned here before) might work really well for metal cases.

I have to start comparing prices. For pcbs as well.
.


emachineshop looks fantastic. can you let us know what you find out in terms of pricing?  I've got a ton of old armchair-inventor ideas rattling around in my head, I'd love to do cheap prototypes (if they're affordable!) via online services like this.
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: bhtooefr on Tue, 30 December 2008, 15:53:28
Any news?
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: lowpoly on Tue, 30 December 2008, 17:29:31
Not really, life is slow at the office ATM and when we're here we're moving stuff around. But it looks like I'll start price inquiries in January.

I also dug out my old Rhino3D version to build an accurate NURBS model but that version was just too old (1.0). Couldn't even do some simple fillets. IIRC I used the 1.2 upgrade before, which could be downloaded from the Rhino site but that download is gone since. Have to check other possibilites.
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: billm on Wed, 21 January 2009, 21:11:03
So you can just cut off the alpha part of the PCB and it still works?
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: bhtooefr on Wed, 21 January 2009, 21:26:52
He did some wiring on this one, and wired it up to a custom controller, not the original controller.

So, no, that wouldn't just work.

I'm not sure if I want this keyboard any more, though. I do like the lightness of the Cherry blues, and I like this Scorpius M10... for the price of a Scorpius M10. Not sure about the price area of this keyboard.
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: lowpoly on Thu, 22 January 2009, 05:40:55
billm, look at the pcb pic (bigger version (http://img387.imageshack.us/img387/6668/electronicspreviewvc2.jpg)) and you will see the extra cables. You also need a custom controller for the function layer if you want to go without autohotkey. If you use autohotkey the original controller will do.

To give just a small update, I found the service release for Rhino and can finally do fillets. Most of the keycaps are done. I'm currently working on the case and a low poly switch in Wings3D. Beside mockup pics this will also allow me to design the switch pcb support.

Costar doesn't answer my mails (two so far). I even sent them a link to the pics (not here). I'm not too worried about this as I'd rather have more control over the single parts to make variations more easy. For ex. keycap, switch pcb, case color, layout variations.

I finally have a sales contact for the pointing stick. No results yet.

Found info about the production process (http://www.viddler.com/explore/imhassan/videos/1/) for the Macbook unibody. Definitely not an option for a low volume production.

As for pricing, it will be impossible to beat the price of the M10. Mine would have lower volumes, and pointing stick, USB hub and programmable controller add features that the M10 doesn't have so it's hard to compare anyway.

The programmable controller also requires me to develop user friendly programming software.

A lot more to do, pics will be next.
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: bhtooefr on Thu, 22 January 2009, 09:12:50
Quote from: lowpoly
As for pricing, it will be impossible to beat the price of the M10. Mine would have lower volumes, and pointing stick, USB hub and programmable controller add features that the M10 doesn't have so it's hard to compare anyway.


I wasn't saying it would compete with the M10, I was just saying that I was unsure that I would pay this sort of money for Cherry blues. My guestimates for price were in the $300 area. ;)
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: lowpoly on Thu, 22 January 2009, 10:02:56
I have no idea what the final price would be, hopefully a lot less. It's a complex task.

Quote
I was just saying that I was unsure that I would pay this sort of money for Cherry blues.

One of the reasons I want to go without plate mounted switches. Having the opportunity to mod the 'board later may make the decision for a certain switch easier.

I'm also working on a switch. Mechanical but with a long tactile curve like a well known Japanese capacitive switch. A first trial setup went well. But this will take months at least and probably someone else will come out with something similar before I get it finished. Also it will not be cheap. But cool. :cool:
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: dlarellano on Thu, 22 January 2009, 10:45:29
(http://www.threadbombing.com/data/media/2/Chuck_Norris_Approves.gif)
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: bhtooefr on Thu, 22 January 2009, 15:15:59
Well, the problem is, my order of preference is:

Lightweight BS > Cherry blues > Standard BS

And that's it. ;)
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: lowpoly on Thu, 22 January 2009, 15:25:27
:)
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: wellington1869 on Thu, 22 January 2009, 15:39:52
Quote from: lowpoly;19150

I'm also working on a switch. Mechanical but with a long tactile curve like a well known Japanese capacitive switch. A first trial setup went well. But this will take months at least and probably someone else will come out with something similar before I get it finished. Also it will not be cheap. But cool. :cool:


dont forget to have the activation occur before the tactile feedback ends.

and really, eventually it really should be available in light bs too. ;) I mean, come on.

and I hate hhkb style boards with their fancy cramped shortcuts that mess up all my painfully developed autohotkey code. so I still say eventually a freaking 'normal layout version' too please ;)
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: eugenius on Sat, 24 January 2009, 09:25:11
I would pay 500$ for a black programmable backlit ergoplus. :)

Does this keyboard fit in the Motion field case?

Link: http://www.tabletpc2.com/Review-MotionBluetoothKeyboardrandFieldCase.htm
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: lowpoly on Sat, 24 January 2009, 12:46:53
Quote from: eugenius;19455
I would pay 500$ for a black programmable backlit ergoplus. :)

Does this keyboard fit in the Motion field case?

Link: http://www.tabletpc2.com/Review-MotionBluetoothKeyboardrandFieldCase.htm

So will you Ritt-dye your ErgoPlus? :)

As for the case, the footprint of the 'board is roughly 12"x5" so you can put two in that case and still have room for a cable.
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: iMav on Sat, 24 January 2009, 13:32:07
Thanks for keeping us updated lowpoly.  When your vision finally goes production, you can count on several purchases from me and all the free advertising on geekhack you want.  :)
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: bhtooefr on Sat, 24 January 2009, 13:54:43
Quick question, will the switches be PCB or plate mounted?
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: lowpoly on Sat, 24 January 2009, 14:36:59
Quote from: iMav;19486
Thanks for keeping us updated lowpoly.  When your vision finally goes production, you can count on several purchases from me and all the free advertising on geekhack you want.  :)

Thanks, iMav. :)

Quote from: bhtooefr;19489
Quick question, will the switches be PCB or plate mounted?

I'd prefer without plate for easier modding. Might not be an option with an OEM.
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: lowpoly on Mon, 02 February 2009, 07:19:25
I'm currently evaluating zinc diecasting as the material for the case. Machined Aluminum will be too expensive. I don't think I'm even going to look into that. And plastic is not a good base for painting.
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: wellington1869 on Mon, 02 February 2009, 13:18:26
lowpoly I'm looking forward to putting your new keyboard between two slices of rye bread and eating it.
(You know, cuz its good enough to eat)... so hurry up and manufacture the damn thing already... I'm hungry!
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: lowpoly on Mon, 02 February 2009, 14:05:13
I work on your dinner as fast as I can. :)
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: xsphat on Mon, 02 February 2009, 16:35:30
Imight want seconds ...
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: lowpoly on Mon, 09 February 2009, 08:04:19
This came in the mail today:

(http://img22.imageshack.us/img22/6797/pointingstickpcbyl4.jpg)

One of three pointing stick modules. These are for notebooks. The stick needs more length and I have to figure out how. Needs to be cheap and stable.

Also got some answers from the Zinc Diecast company. Due to the tooling that is neccessary a production run of 1000 won't make much sense. 10000 would be a number where the tooling cost divides much better. :eek:

Cost wise it probably wouldn't matter if the case is made from Zinc, Aluminum or Magnesium. Still waiting for an answer from the Aluminum guys. Zinc is much heavier though. This might be a good thing? I have a feeling that Zinc diecast has a cheap connotation but I might be totally wrong here.

And I have decided that I want this 'board to have nKey rollover, even if it is not aimed a gamers.

I also played a little with the emachineshop software. This is basically a 2D software. I tried to import the case which wouldn't work at all. I don't think you can build this case from scratch because of the many oblique angles. So, emachineshop is a great thing, but not for me right now.
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: wellington1869 on Mon, 09 February 2009, 13:20:31
emachineshop intrigues me. Its like manufacturing for the masses.
the trackpoint looks neat. I think your prototypes are going to look *awesome*.
Zinc vs aluminum/magnesium - if the price difference isnt much, which one do you prefer? I dont know if I've ever handled a zinc keyboard. Heavy wouldnt be bad if the price is same, but think of the shipping cost you (and the manufacturer) would save on, when you ship 10,000 keyboards, if they're made out of aluminum rather than zinc :)
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: lowpoly on Mon, 09 February 2009, 13:35:15
The pointing stick module even contains the controller. Compare that to the huge controller in the pic above (it's the turquoise pcb). That's the result of 10 years of miniaturization.

I think I'd prefer the "quality weight" of Zinc and the good reputation Aluminum has for cases. I have to figure out how much the weight difference really is. I finished the 3d case but it has some obscure errors so that the volume can't be computed. :( Will do it again tonight.
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: lowpoly on Thu, 12 February 2009, 12:14:58
I ran into something which might be a serious problem with the controller I use. I'm not sure.

When the FN key is pressed the whole matrix is re-scanned and all pressed keys are reported to USB. Also when the FN key is released.

This leads to double key strokes when the FN key is released earlier than the actual key it modifies. Let me try some examples:

Shift, intended mode of operation:

1. Press Shift
2. Press a
3. Release a
4. Release Shift

The modified key is 'bracketed' timewise by the modifier key. This is where the FN key works perfectly.

Now if you type in a rollover style:

1. Press Shift
2. Press a
3. Release Shift
4. Release a

This works for Shift, Ctrl, etc. unless you hold phase 4 so long that the key repeats, in which case you get

Aaaaaaaa

With the FN key however:

1. Press FN
2. Press a (creates 2nd layer key code, for ex. CrsrLeft)
3. Release FN
<------ Here the matrix is re-scanned, a is found as still pressed and forwarded to the buffer
4. Release a

This design is intentional. I see the logic behind it but can't imagine how to work around this in an easy way. It looks like thath with regular modifier keys (Shift, Ctrl, ...) the operating system translates the buffer content to keyup and keydn events by comparing buffer content. With the Layer tables this won't work so easily because the modified key is a different code with FN pressed or not.

I have to talk to the mfgr on the phone I guess.
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: lowpoly on Thu, 12 February 2009, 13:38:18
This was my first try. I'm sure I can bring the tooling costs down. Well, somewhat.
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: lowpoly on Tue, 17 February 2009, 06:23:52
I'd still be interested in comments on post 220 (http://geekhack.org/showpost.php?p=21549&postcount=220). Am I the only one to 'roll' the modifier keys?

I talked to the controller chip manufacturer and they might change the bahavior. If I buy enough chips, of course. This raises the question how correct rollover behavior is supposed to work with function key layers.

I also have to work on the construction. The prototype is lacking in that department. What I want is a plastic endoskeleton. For one this will support the switch pcb so that no mounting plate is neccessary. And, all parts can be bolted to the skeleton which will ease assembly and disassembly. For ex. if the pointing stick is bolted to the skeleton instead of the switch pcb it will not only have a more stable support it will also make it much easier to exchange the switch pcb.

This skeleton will be a complex part. I don't think I can do this with Rhino. There is no way I can test if everything will fit afterwards. And with the cost of tooling I don't see this as a trial-and-error process. Have to take a look at CAD software.
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: lal on Tue, 17 February 2009, 07:36:10
Observing my own typing habits I note that I'm quite a disciplined modifier user, always releasing the modifier *after* the modified key. Maybe I'm not doing it when I'm not looking. But IMHO the sudden appearance of additional characters after using some "rolled" Fn-combo is a no-go and I vote strongly against it.
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: lowpoly on Thu, 19 February 2009, 09:55:32
Quote
But IMHO the sudden appearance of additional characters after using some "rolled" Fn-combo is a no-go and I vote strongly against it.
This is one of the things that might lead to a situation the Das III has right now. I'm going to avoid it. I don't know what the possibilities of the controller programming are so I have to get back to this later to define the correct rollover behavior.

The 3D parts are done for now except for the famous bezel which was mentioned a few pages ago. Have to put all parts in place first. There is still a lot of work left in the order of weeks. And I'm currently working fulltime on this. Here's a small parts preview:

(http://img3.imageshack.us/img3/5315/switchandlevelfs9.png)
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: lowpoly on Wed, 25 February 2009, 15:16:55
I might have discovered another problem.

When I use the mini on my Thinkpad the Trackpoint requires considerably more force than the built-in one. I played with the settings and the Thinkpad Ultranav settings don't affect the external Trackpoint. I had tried that before but didn't think much, it's different technology and a different manufacturer.

The regular mouse settings however do work for the external TP.

Currently I suspect that the ps/2 to usb conversion translates the TP to a regular mouse. Which would mean no driver could detect it ever.

That would be bad.
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: lowpoly on Wed, 25 February 2009, 15:34:51
In the device manager there are two HID devices identified as "ps/2 to usb". That's because the ps/2 to usb converter has two inputs, one for mouse, one for keyboard. Maybe a custom converter might be able to solve that and report the correct device.
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: lowpoly on Fri, 27 February 2009, 05:51:03
I probably would have to write a usb driver for the trackpoint to work correctly. And have a custom ps/2 to usb converter for correct identification.

Anyway, got some Trackpoint caps:

(http://img25.imageshack.us/img25/7875/capso.jpg)

The green one as a blue would be my favorite.

Also, I took some pics with the new Ziotec cable which was a gift from xsphat (thanks again, man :)):

(http://img25.imageshack.us/img25/8312/thinkpad01.jpg)

(http://img25.imageshack.us/img25/7059/thinkpad02.jpg)

Stupid cables on the floor... :)
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: bigpook on Fri, 27 February 2009, 07:52:17
way to go lowpoly. your work is awesome. I hope you are able to mass produce these, if so I am in for one.
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: wellington1869 on Fri, 27 February 2009, 13:11:02
me too. I still want to put it in a sandwich and eat it.
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: eugenius on Fri, 10 April 2009, 10:46:25
This keyboard would interest me (enough to consider buing) if:

1. The trackpoint was flawless and had dedicated buttons.
2. See 1.
3. It had at least a FN key.
4. Was completely flat (easy carry, packing etc)
5. It had no metal bottom (that's silly in a portable keyboard).
6. It had quiet, light touch tactile switches (cherry browns, strogmans with cut springs).

PS: Don't get me started ... :)
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: bigpook on Fri, 10 April 2009, 11:10:24
What is the status with this keyboard? Any idea if/when it may be available?
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: lowpoly on Fri, 10 April 2009, 15:18:11
Quote from: eugenius;28134
This keyboard would interest me (enough to consider buing) if:

1. The trackpoint was flawless and had dedicated buttons.
2. See 1.
3. It had at least a FN key.
4. Was completely flat (easy carry, packing etc)
5. It had no metal bottom (that's silly in a portable keyboard).
6. It had quiet, light touch tactile switches (cherry browns, strogmans with cut springs).

PS: Don't get me started ... :)

1. What do you mean by dedictated buttons? The pointing stick will have a simplified driver for the first release. Only what's important like speed and scrolling.

2. see 1 :)

3. The swirl key is the FN key. There are two and you can re-program the controller anytime.

4. Completely flat is not possible, you need space for the controller. I think I will drop the additional power supply for the hub and put an additional ps/2 port there. So people can have full NKRO if neccessary. There will be a minimum height for the connectors.

5. The metal case is cool. In aluminum it's not heavier than plastic because the material is thinner. Zinc would be heavier. I prefer Zinc because weight feels like quality (we are talking about a couple of grams here). You want to pick it up and say "wow that feels solid". Its main purpose is not being a travel keyboard although it will travel easily. The main purpose is that you don't have to leave the home row. And the small footprint has several advantages beyond travelling.

6. I want to have a couple of switch variants from the start.

Quote from: bigpook;28140
What is the status with this keyboard? Any idea if/when it may be available?


Not before 2010. :( I will need seed financing which is kind of difficult to get here. Designing the case and skeleton for ex. will require a professional CAD operator.

I'm still working on the 3D. A first informal funding meeting was supposed to happen two days ago but it was postponed.

As soon as the 3D pics are ready I will do a preview (aka "vaporware") site.
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: bigpook on Fri, 10 April 2009, 18:47:16
Thanks for the information lowpoly, I am sure I am not the only one that is interested here.
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: Mikecase00 on Fri, 10 April 2009, 19:26:36
Just stumbled across this.  While my personal tastes would include an editing block and cursor keys, your work is bad-ass and should it become available for purchase in the future, I'd snap one up.  Nice work...
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: eugenius on Sun, 12 April 2009, 19:58:12
1. The mouse buttons from that thinkpad below are dedicated buttons.

2. See 1. :)

3. I though those were the windows / command keys. I suppose I could reprogram any key, but a FN key is a FN key because when you press the combination, the keyboard and not the drivers generate the correct key code, like for arrows, function keys etc.

4. If it's not completely flat, at least not so angled that putting it in a laptop bag beside the laptop scratches both in time. My point is, the more angle, the less portability. A little angle doesn't hurt at all, if the edge is rounded.

5. If it's almost the same weight, the metal it is. I think it will take some kind of alloy, not simple aluminium to keep it light though. :)

6. The more switches, the better. Light BS, Browns, Reds, Blues, Strongmans - all good. :)

--------------------------

7. Maybe you can think of a system to let the enterprising portable user stitch some velcro patches on the bottom.  Like some holes in the case, and an easy way to diassemble and put it back. Screws! :)

8. HARDWARE support for Colemak right from the start, without drivers. Dip-switches, etc. It's easy to move the keys around, especially with Cherry switches. And it would be a great marketing tool. Behold, the bearded woman, err, the first Colemak keyboard. It's QWERTY too, just switch the keys around and flip a switch, no drivers. :) My bad if there was a Colemak keyboard already.

9 Make your own layout for a ****load of money, with hardware support. Don't make it programmable, just a ask a lot of money for a reprogramming and a keycap replacement. :)
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: lowpoly on Mon, 13 April 2009, 14:30:33
Quote from: eugenius;28495
1. The mouse buttons from that thinkpad below are dedicated buttons.

2. See 1. :)

3. I though those were the windows / command keys. I suppose I could reprogram any key, but a FN key is a FN key because when you press the combination, the keyboard and not the drivers generate the correct key code, like for arrows, function keys etc.

4. If it's not completely flat, at least not so angled that putting it in a laptop bag beside the laptop scratches both in time. My point is, the more angle, the less portability. A little angle doesn't hurt at all, if the edge is rounded.

5. If it's almost the same weight, the metal it is. I think it will take some kind of alloy, not simple aluminium to keep it light though. :)

6. The more switches, the better. Light BS, Browns, Reds, Blues, Strongmans - all good. :)

--------------------------

7. Maybe you can think of a system to let the enterprising portable user stitch some velcro patches on the bottom.  Like some holes in the case, and an easy way to diassemble and put it back. Screws! :)

8. HARDWARE support for Colemak right from the start, without drivers. Dip-switches, etc. It's easy to move the keys around, especially with Cherry switches. And it would be a great marketing tool. Behold, the bearded woman, err, the first Colemak keyboard. It's QWERTY too, just switch the keys around and flip a switch, no drivers. :) My bad if there was a Colemak keyboard already.

9 Make your own layout for a ****load of money, with hardware support. Don't make it programmable, just a ask a lot of money for a reprogramming and a keycap replacement. :)


1 On the prototype the trackpoint buttons are directly connected to the trackpoint pcb. Maybe you can see it in the pic. It's the same with the pointing stick samples I have. Should be a non-issue.

3 You can re-program the FN key as well. I think the final version will have three additional layers instead of one so this may come handy.

5 The prototype has a wall thickness of 0.8mm.

6 Not sure about Alps. I haven't looked into it closely but I think there will be no room for plate mounting. Have to check that.

7 There is self adhesive velcro. Why do you want it?

8 As long as you use blank keys, no problem. :) I have yet to figure out my keycap options. What I found so far doesn't look too good and I'm admittedly procrastinating here. Switching caps around doesn't work with current MX caps.

9 :)
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: itlnstln on Mon, 13 April 2009, 14:36:34
Quote from: lowpoly;28658
7 There is self adhesive velcro. Why do you want it?


If you use the Industrial Velcro, that adhesive does not come off.  I have used in some car audio installs where I had to mount some components under seats on carpet.  I used the Industrial Velcro (I got it from Home Depot) and you are more likely to rip the carpet off the floor than pull the component off.
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: eugenius on Mon, 13 April 2009, 20:13:32
Quote from: lowpoly;28658
1 On the prototype the trackpoint buttons are directly connected to the trackpoint pcb. Maybe you can see it in the pic. It's the same with the pointing stick samples I have. Should be a non-issue.

3 You can re-program the FN key as well. I think the final version will have three additional layers instead of one so this may come handy.

5 The prototype has a wall thickness of 0.8mm.

6 Not sure about Alps. I haven't looked into it closely but I think there will be no room for plate mounting. Have to check that.

7 There is self adhesive velcro. Why do you want it?

8 As long as you use blank keys, no problem. :) I have yet to figure out my keycap options. What I found so far doesn't look too good and I'm admittedly procrastinating here. Switching caps around doesn't work with current MX caps.

9 :)


3. I hope you get the hardware versus software thing I am saying here, because I don't get what you want to say .. please explain.

6. Ok, I don't think Alps are such a demanded option anyway ... but as a price issue, to me the fake alps sound cheaper, hence bigger profit, or lower loss. :)

7. I want to use the keyboard directly from a bag for a tablet pc, like this:

(http://www.tabletpc2.com/Graphics/Reviews/Motion%20FeildCase-Bluetoothkeyboard/WithRoll.JPG)
(http://www.tabletpc2.com/Graphics/tablet%20photos/Motion%20Photos/fieldcase.jpeg)

The glue is hard to remove, hard to customize the patches of velcro, and I would rather have the option to remove them easily. Plus, the velcro would make the keyboard slide all over the table, If I get it out of the case.

8. I guess you're referring to the different shape for differrent rows. To get some keys that would be swappable hence flat, please investigate the keycaps from flat programmable keyboards (with or without relegendable keycaps) that use the MX switches - Tipro makes some for example. Just a suggestion ... :)
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: lowpoly on Tue, 14 April 2009, 08:31:21
Quote from: eugenius;85313
3. I hope you get the hardware versus software thing I am saying here, because I don't get what you want to say .. please explain.

6. Ok, I don't think Alps are such a demanded option anyway ... but as a price issue, to me the fake alps sound cheaper, hence bigger profit, or lower loss. :)

7. I want to use the keyboard directly from a bag for a tablet pc, like this:

Show Image
(http://www.tabletpc2.com/Graphics/Reviews/Motion%20FeildCase-Bluetoothkeyboard/WithRoll.JPG)

Show Image
(http://www.tabletpc2.com/Graphics/tablet%20photos/Motion%20Photos/fieldcase.jpeg)


The glue is hard to remove, hard to customize the patches of velcro, and I would rather have the option to remove them easily. Plus, the velcro would make the keyboard slide all over the table, If I get it out of the case.

8. I guess you're referring to the different shape for differrent rows. To get some keys that would be swappable hence flat, please investigate the keycaps from flat programmable keyboards (with or without relegendable keycaps) that use the MX switches - Tipro makes some for example. Just a suggestion ... :)

3 The FN key doesn't have a special pin on the controller or something. It is just another key in the matrix. You can use any key you want when re-programming the controller. It works without a software driver then.

7 Got it now. Where would the Velcro have to be? I'll probably leave the two inner rubber feet away in the final version.

8 Cherry has these as well. I just didn't have them on my list yet. There are already a lot of keycap variants I'd like to have (white, black, with and without letters, ANSI, ISO).
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: eugenius on Sat, 25 April 2009, 22:52:28
3. Got it.

7. Actually, I thought of a lot of attachment systems, I don't know what would actually be the best .. :)

So far the best  option is still (almost:)) permanently attached velcro patches with matched rubber velcro feet.

I'm trying  to come up with a more elegant and easy to use solution that leaves nothing permanently sticking to the bottom ... but from an usability standpoint, that's the best  so far. :)
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: itlnstln on Sun, 26 April 2009, 10:28:31
The "Industrial Strength" Velcro will not unfasten.  Great stuff.  Regular-a*s Velcro sucks.
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: lowpoly on Sun, 26 April 2009, 13:30:50
I already used Velcro to attach one of the smaller pcbs. :smile:

The feet are 1mm high. That's the limit. Using screws is probably the best solution.

Quote from: Mikecase00
Just stumbled across this. While my personal tastes would include an editing block and cursor keys, your work is bad-ass and should it become available for purchase in the future, I'd snap one up. Nice work..

I missed your post. Thanks.

Another difficulty came up which is EMC testing (electromagnetic compatibility). To get that nice little CE sign. Looks like the test is expensive and there's no way around it. There's even the possibility that you fail it again and again. So commercial pcb design is not a garage operation anymore.
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: keyb_gr on Sun, 26 April 2009, 14:42:47
Actually you can slap on a CE sign if you're confident that radiation will be within the allowed limits. It's just that you're liable if someone complains about EMC issues and the device is found to be non-compliant.

It can't be that strict really. There are many CE-marked devices on the market where you really wonder whether they ever saw an EMC test. Some cell phone chargers seem to be pretty nasty (even by the standards of small switching power supplies), apparently still being able to generate heavy interference in the FM broadcast band.

A keyboard should be a relatively uncritical component, no huge currents or anything - in my experience, it's the data transmission that's most critical (oldschool edgy 5Vpp signals, no surprise there). If you keep half an eye on potential EMC issues during development and do some testing with a decently sensitive LW/MW/SW/FM receiver (DE1103, E5, ICF-SW7600GR or such) without any indications of excessive radiation, you should generally be fine. Of course it would be advantageous if you could afford a 2-layer PCB, close-by bypassing of the controller (and following other guidelines for RF-level design) would also seem like a good idea.
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: lowpoly on Sun, 26 April 2009, 15:22:55
Quote from: keyb_gr;87407
Actually you can slap on a CE sign if you're confident that radiation will be within the allowed limits. It's just that you're liable if someone complains about EMC issues and the device is found to be non-compliant.

A recall of the whole series might be neccessary/forced then meaning $$$.

Quote from: keyb_gr;87407
It can't be that strict really. There are many CE-marked devices on the market where you really wonder whether they ever saw an EMC test. Some cell phone chargers seem to be pretty nasty (even by the standards of small switching power supplies), apparently still being able to generate heavy interference in the FM broadcast band.

Some non-european manufacturers just print it on the label because it is almost impossible to sue them. Inside the EU that's different.

Quote from: keyb_gr;87407
A keyboard should be a relatively uncritical component, no huge currents or anything - in my experience, it's the data transmission that's most critical (oldschool edgy 5Vpp signals, no surprise there). If you keep half an eye on potential EMC issues during development and do some testing with a decently sensitive LW/MW/SW/FM receiver (DE1103, E5, ICF-SW7600GR or such) without any indications of excessive radiation, you should generally be fine. Of course it would be advantageous if you could afford a 2-layer PCB, close-by bypassing of the controller (and following other guidelines for RF-level design) would also seem like a good idea.

Thanks for the additional info.

I guess the EMC issue explains why the Cherry switch pcbs have a 2nd copper layer on the top side?
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: keyb_gr on Sun, 26 April 2009, 16:24:40
Quote from: lowpoly;87415
I guess the EMC issue explains why the Cherry switch pcbs have a 2nd copper layer on the top side?

They do? Looking at my pics, yep, that seems to be a dual layer PCB "upside down". Such a ground plane is quite handy as you always have a low-impedance ground nearby. (Larger arrangements should implement star grounding in addition.)

Indeed, the nice large keyboard matrix would probably make a fairly decent antenna without any precautions.
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: chimera15 on Tue, 28 April 2009, 12:28:07
Beautiful thing. ;) You don't have any arrow keys though?
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: lowpoly on Tue, 28 April 2009, 13:08:03
:smile: They are on a function layer. You press one of the function keys with your thumb and a cursor key on/near the home row.
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: lowpoly on Wed, 06 May 2009, 13:43:00
Preview of the 3D model I'm working on for some time now:

[pic removed, final 3d on page 20 (http://geekhack.org/showwiki.php?t=4917&do=comments&page=20)]

The glossy keycaps are not going to happen but I thought it would be nice.
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: D-EJ915 on Wed, 06 May 2009, 13:49:34
I like the blue colour of the switch things, should get some keycaps that colour...
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: o2dazone on Wed, 06 May 2009, 15:17:28
is that ambient occlusion I see? :) Looks pro man, love it
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: mtl on Wed, 06 May 2009, 19:33:38
I like the concept.  Have you considered adding the middle button?  It makes scrolling with the trackpoint so much easier!
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: pmyshkin on Wed, 06 May 2009, 20:52:16
This is a great design, and it's amazing that you're actually working on getting these mass produced.

My only concern is that you completely removed the grave/tilde key, and this key would be important to *nix users. I've seen some keyboard manufacturers try to put this key in the place of the left logo key, and that's just clunky. The only good solution I've seen is on the Sun Type 6 keyboards that split the long backspace into grave/tilde and backslash/pipe keys and put the backspace in the place of the original backslash/pipe position right above enter.

Also, I'm sure people have brought this up, but you could replace capslock with control and both control keys with FN keys.
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: bigpook on Wed, 06 May 2009, 21:39:17
The white one looks incredible. When can I get one : o
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: wellington1869 on Wed, 06 May 2009, 21:56:27
Quote from: bigpook;89637
The white one looks incredible. When can I get one : o


seriously low-po, send it to market already!
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: lowpoly on Thu, 07 May 2009, 11:12:28
Thanks for the comments.

Quote from: o2dazone;89564
is that ambient occlusion I see? :) Looks pro man, love it
It's a skydome. Didn't work as well on the keys as in the car scene I re-used for this. Diffuse illumination is baked so a 2048x1024 image will render in under a minute. This will finally allow me to render 360 degree animations for various color combinations.

And it better look good, 3D was my job for several years. :smile: Lighting and materials are still temporary.

Quote from: pmyshkin;89631
My only concern is that you completely removed the grave/tilde key, and this key would be important to *nix users. I've seen some keyboard manufacturers try to put this key in the place of the left logo key, and that's just clunky. The only good solution I've seen is on the Sun Type 6 keyboards that split the long backspace into grave/tilde and backslash/pipe keys and put the backspace in the place of the original backslash/pipe position right above enter.

Also, I'm sure people have brought this up, but you could replace capslock with control and both control keys with FN keys.
Grave/tilde is on Fn/Esc. I'll probably keep the large Backspace key to keep the layout standard. There are enough keys for reprogramming. I personally do not like Backspace above Enter because I sometimes hit Enter instead of Backspace. But everything is re-progammable.

I already have Ctrl on CapsLock. Didn't want to do any non-professional keycap text changes though.

The FN keys are left and right of Space.

Quote from: bigpook;89637
The white one looks incredible. When can I get one : o

While the initial idea for the 3D visualization was to try out the bezel, my main motivation to keep it going was the white board with the blue pointing stick.

As for a time frame, I have no idea. When the 3D model is semi-finished I'll continue with a preview/blog web site.
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: lowpoly on Fri, 08 May 2009, 08:04:20
Quote from: mtl;89622
I like the concept.  Have you considered adding the middle button?  It makes scrolling with the trackpoint so much easier!
Missed your post, sorry. I'm undecided on the third button. ATM I'd rather use one of the keyboard keys for that (or for right click) or both buttons together. Have to think about it.

Got some trackball samples:

(http://img4.imageshack.us/img4/5792/trackballs.jpg)

Unfortunately they do not roll smoothly but rather click-click-click. This does not work for cursor movement on a big screen. I'm talking to sales if they can do something about it. Pressing the ball down is like a button click.
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: bigpook on Fri, 08 May 2009, 11:56:32
Quote from: wellington1869;89639
seriously low-po, send it to market already!


Ditto. Can I get mine in white?
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: lal on Mon, 11 May 2009, 11:08:24
Quote from: lowpoly;89878
Missed your post, sorry. I'm undecided on the third button. ATM I'd rather use one of the keyboard keys for that (or for right click) or both buttons together. Have to think about it.


Three mouse buttons is a MUST.  I didn't realize until now it has only two.  Middle button is the standard way of pasting the clipboard content in most Unix systems, and it's used for many other kinds of useful things.  It wouldn't be quite right if it had only two.  Just my 2¢.
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: lowpoly on Mon, 11 May 2009, 11:15:54
Quote from: webwit;89888
Wait..what..a trackball in place of the trackpoint? Hmm I guess it indeed would get a little bit too small. Or is my space bar splitting trackball dream coming true? ;)

I'd like a third button/scroll wheel combo. My only concern is that adding things deflate the minimal design. Which is really stunning! Wow (I'd prefer matte black though).
I talked to a supplier about pointing sticks. Turned out he sells these trackballs as well. They're small enough to integrate them into the the space bar. The way they are it wouldn't work right now though.

When I try to be honest with myself, I think that three of these buttons will clutter the design. Somebody else here said lately function shouldn't follow form on a device like this. Which is true. Maybe I'll split one button. Or add another much smaller one. It's not possible to space three mouse buttons evenly because of the MX switch. I have to postpone this for now and will pick it up when the preview website is finished.

Quote from: webwit;89891
The 3D design is very iPod-esc, that is, the graphical marketing efforts. I know this isn't possible (small series and all), but I'd love to see that in a wide rainbow of colors. They would look great, side by side. Then even girls would buy one. The pink and such.

Not sure if different colors for the case will be a problem. One of the reasons I spend so much time with the 3D is that I can use it to generate plenty of images for a web configurator.

Keycaps is another thing. Cherrys will be available in black and white only. The ipod similarity was coincidence caused by keycap choice and unfinished lighting/materials.

Quote from: bigpook;89902
Ditto. Can I get mine in white?

I'm working on marketing issues right now because I realized that I will need third parties to do the CAD and electronics works. Which requires funding. Which will be easier with the materials I'm working on right now.
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: lowpoly on Mon, 11 May 2009, 11:21:11
Quote from: lal;90268
Three mouse buttons is a MUST.  I didn't realize until now it has only two.  Middle button is the standard way of pasting the clipboard content in most Unix systems, and it's used for many other kinds of useful things.  It wouldn't be quite right if it had only two.  Just my 2¢.
I agree, I'm just in denial. :smile:
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: wellington1869 on Mon, 11 May 2009, 14:31:21
I kind of like the trackball-in-spacebar idea.

if you split the two buttons into three buttons, make a "V" shape for the cut (like on some ibm thinkpads), where the inside of the V is the third button.  It will be easier that way to feel where the third button is with your finger without having to look down.
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: wellington1869 on Mon, 11 May 2009, 15:40:15
sweet :)
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: vils on Mon, 11 May 2009, 15:49:31
Very nice, it has been a pleasure to read all 18 pages. I really like the trackball placement, and I prefer that before a stick. Maybe makes the KB a bit less sleek, but that's a compromise well worth to make.
Put me on the waiting list.
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: pmyshkin on Mon, 11 May 2009, 23:46:26
The trackball in the space bar is a great idea. I always thought that the space bar was unnecessarily large and a total waste of real estate. I assume you would use it with one of your thumbs for minimum movement away from the home row? If so, you'd have to vary which thumb you use depending on which mouse button you want to press, which can become problematic.
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: lowpoly on Tue, 12 May 2009, 09:36:55
Quote from: wellington1869;90298
I kind of like the trackball-in-spacebar idea.

if you split the two buttons into three buttons, make a "V" shape for the cut (like on some ibm thinkpads), where the inside of the V is the third button.  It will be easier that way to feel where the third button is with your finger without having to look down.
Split the two buttons? Have a pic? I'm slow today.

Quote from: webwit;90312
Repost of a 'shop:
One of the reasons I like this is that I like Erase-Eaze. The ball in the pic wouldn't fit though, it would have to be a bit smaller. The small trackballs I posted could be either integrated into the space bar or put on a small post that went through a hole in the space bar.

Quote from: pmyshkin;90369
If so, you'd have to vary which thumb you use depending on which mouse button you want to press, which can become problematic.
Good point. I came across this myself yesterday while playing around with the mini pretending to have a trackball. I think my favorite position for a small trackball would be between the space bar and the "B" key, taking away some real estate from the B key as well. That way it could be rolled with the index finger.
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: lowpoly on Tue, 12 May 2009, 12:23:38
Here's a version with symbols and the case painted silver metallic (or sandblasted / clear lacquered). Still, materials and lighting are not finished:

[pic removed, final 3d on page 20 (http://geekhack.org/showwiki.php?t=4917&do=comments&page=20)]
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: o2dazone on Tue, 12 May 2009, 12:27:02
Those renders are so sweet, nice job on concept and everything :thumbsup:
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: bigpook on Tue, 12 May 2009, 14:18:32
that is one fine looking keyboard.
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: IBI on Tue, 12 May 2009, 15:46:26
Quote from: lowpoly;90423
Split the two buttons? Have a pic? I'm slow today.


http://jonchoo.blogspot.com/2007/04/configuring-ibm-thinkpads-trackpoint.html

What about a split spacebar with some sort of three-way switch in the center for buttons? Maybe similar to the four way and press down switches commonly used on phones. Left and right could be the mouse buttons, up and down the scroll wheel and press the middle click.
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: wellington1869 on Tue, 12 May 2009, 16:00:15
I think this would work, if you embed the tiny ball into the spacebar's middle:

(http://www.gesticulations.com/public/gallery/Images/fun/draw12.jpg)


Re: the V shaped cut on the mouse buttons, dont worry about it, I didnt realize the mouse buttons were that far apart. I just meant this design on the thinkpad:  [update: ya, IBI got it]

(http://www.gesticulations.com/public/gallery/Images/fun/draw12.png)
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: wellington1869 on Tue, 12 May 2009, 16:03:07
low-po, I have to tell you, you've been 'teasing' all of us for like two years now with these beautiful designs. You're working us up into a frenzy. No fair, its time to put out. ;)
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: itlnstln on Tue, 12 May 2009, 16:07:35
Quote from: wellington1869;90492
low-po, I have to tell you, you've been 'teasing' all of us for like two years now with these beautiful designs. You're working us up into a frenzy. No fair, its time to put out. ;)

So, uh, have you found yourself a nice young lady, yet?  I think you're getting a little too excited about a keyboard.  Nothing against the keyboard, it's great, but you're getting a little carried away. :)
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: wellington1869 on Wed, 13 May 2009, 01:10:39
by the way low-po, I reliinquish all rights to my "tiny trackball" drawing, if you want to take that with you when you go see the venture capitalists ;D
:wink:
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: Hak Foo on Wed, 13 May 2009, 01:49:18
Use a small thumb-operated trackball on the side, near Backspace, and two or more buttons on the top right

I'd think a trackball on the space bar would require a lot of very fine control to avoid accidentally hitting the bar.

Err...
after pondering it for a moment, I'd say "Trackball by Right Shift, buttons on outward face" for a better layout.
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: pmyshkin on Wed, 13 May 2009, 01:55:42
I think the whole point is to avoid moving your hand from the home row, so a trackball that far away wouldn't work.
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: mtl on Wed, 13 May 2009, 12:14:59
Compared to a trackball of the size being discussed, I think the trackpoint will be the more usable pointing device. Can you put the trackball someplace out of the way where it can be easily ignored, and retain the trackpoint?

I'm not much of a trackball user, but from what I've read on these forums, the trackball really only shines when you can flick it and let it spin freely.  If I'm not mistaken that would require a larger ball.  A trackball as small as the sample pictured a page or two back reminds me more of an Apple Mighty Mouse ball.  The user experience with a ball like that is more akin to a touchpad: roll a little, reset finger position, roll a little more, repeat...  I suppose this discussion will be moot if you can't get the manufacturer to make micro-trackballs that don't click as they're rolled.

It seems what you would need is a ball similar to the free-spinning wheel on Logitech's Revolution mice. Does such a thing exist?  I've never used a Blackberry with trackball.  How do those compare?
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: lowpoly on Thu, 14 May 2009, 11:18:20
Thanks for the comments.

Quote from: IBI;90487
What about a split spacebar with some sort of three-way switch in the center for buttons? Maybe similar to the four way and press down switches commonly used on phones. Left and right could be the mouse buttons, up and down the scroll wheel and press the middle click.
Not sure if this could be used with the thumb? Using a joystick-like switch coming out somewhere where the current switches are. Just played around with the prototype and the current button position and action is hard to beat though.

Quote from: wellington1869;90491
Re: the V shaped cut on the mouse buttons, dont worry about it, I didnt realize the mouse buttons were that far apart. I just meant this design on the thinkpad:  [update: ya, IBI got it]
I guess that's why I didn't get it. Maybe I could make the whole metal stripe between the switches another switch which would keep the current design. Or add a horitontal plastic stripe between the current switches. Or a combination of the two. One of these would be my preferred solution.

Quote from: Hak Foo;90538
Use a small thumb-operated trackball on the side, near Backspace, and two or more buttons on the top right

I'd think a trackball on the space bar would require a lot of very fine control to avoid accidentally hitting the bar.

Err...
after pondering it for a moment, I'd say "Trackball by Right Shift, buttons on outward face" for a better layout.
I'd prefer it on a post between space bar and B. But if it's small and rolling easily there should be no problem with space bar integration. Couldn't act as a switch then of course.

As for relocation, pmyshkin answered it:

Quote from: pmyshkin;90539
I think the whole point is to avoid moving your hand from the home row, so a trackball that far away wouldn't work.

Quote from: mtl;90561
Compared to a trackball of the size being discussed, I think the trackpoint will be the more usable pointing device. Can you put the trackball someplace out of the way where it can be easily ignored, and retain the trackpoint?
Too expensive and still the home row problem with the trackball.


Quote from: mtl;90561
I'm not much of a trackball user, but from what I've read on these forums, the trackball really only shines when you can flick it and let it spin freely.  If I'm not mistaken that would require a larger ball.  A trackball as small as the sample pictured a page or two back reminds me more of an Apple Mighty Mouse ball.  The user experience with a ball like that is more akin to a touchpad: roll a little, reset finger position, roll a little more, repeat...  I suppose this discussion will be moot if you can't get the manufacturer to make micro-trackballs that don't click as they're rolled.
Good point on the size.

Quote from: mtl;90561
It seems what you would need is a ball similar to the free-spinning wheel on Logitech's Revolution mice. Does such a thing exist?  I've never used a Blackberry with trackball.  How do those compare?
I think the small ones I posted here are the ones used on the Blackberry. At least, that's what the vendor insinuated.
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: wellington1869 on Thu, 14 May 2009, 15:08:01
Quote

I think the small ones I posted here are the ones used on the Blackberry. At least, that's what the vendor insinuated.


a blackberry ball size (or mighty mouse ball size) embedded in the spacebar would work fine for me :)  It would be pretty neat and innovative too, I think.
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: lowpoly on Sat, 23 May 2009, 04:35:01
Just got confirmation from the vendor that the trackballs I posted won't be available in a non-click version.
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: bhtooefr on Fri, 29 May 2009, 09:32:27
I just had an idea that will solve the middle-button issue, taken from the fact that the middle button is offset on the TrackPoint IV.

Mount it to the bottom of the PCB, and mount the button upside down relative to the others.
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: lowpoly on Fri, 05 June 2009, 07:27:23
bhtooefr, there is no room under the pcb at the front. Only the plastic isolation is between the case and the pcb.

I sort of made up my mind that the 3rd button will be a thin black horizonal plastic stripe between the two original buttons. This will not clutter the design and have a different tactile sensation than the other buttons.

I finally finished the 3D. For now. As soon as this goes into construction I'll have to update. But for now I'm done and can start with the preview web site.

So, here they are:

(http://www.frs635.com/keyboard/miniguru/mockup01.jpg)

(http://www.frs635.com/keyboard/miniguru/mockup02.jpg)

Black matte, provided I can find paint for the body that will last:
(http://www.frs635.com/keyboard/miniguru/mockup03.jpg)

(http://www.frs635.com/keyboard/miniguru/mockup04.jpg)

I love glossy keycaps, think expensive fountain pens:

(http://www.frs635.com/keyboard/miniguru/mockup05.jpg)

Silver/black variants/angles:

(http://www.frs635.com/keyboard/miniguru/mockup06.jpg)

Upper left: anthrazite, upper right: cream keycaps, lower left: chocolate. These are not likely to happen though:

(http://www.frs635.com/keyboard/miniguru/mockup07.jpg)

And I can now render animation sequences in all color combinations with just a few clicks:

(http://www.frs635.com/keyboard/miniguru/ani_silver.gif)
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: itlnstln on Fri, 05 June 2009, 07:32:23
That cream and chocolate version makes me want to do naughty things.  Will these be available with Cherry browns as well?  I'd buy one regardless, though.
 
Please try to make the chocolate and the cream/chocolate ones.  I know I am not the only one who will want one (or twelve).
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: bigpook on Fri, 05 June 2009, 07:56:46
Incredible work lowpoly. Each one is beautiful but I am liking the cream and chocolate one the best. Cherry blues or browns would work for me. Black alps would be neat too.
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: o2dazone on Fri, 05 June 2009, 08:33:47
I love this thread, lowpoly
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: lowpoly on Tue, 09 June 2009, 13:17:28
Thanks for the nice comments. :smile:

Today I had a first external date which had a tiny, tiny possibility to turn into VC but didn't for a number of reasons. I won't go into details, it was a "read between the lines" situation and I'm not sure if I did that right.

Turned out the guy didn't like pointing sticks at all.

So, this made me look into the trackball issue again. The Blackberry trackball and the mighty mouse look like they are the same construction with minor differences. Very different to the one I posted here lately. It uses hall effect sensors to read the cycles. These balls catch dust and dirt and are not easy to clean though. Might not be the right thing after all.

There are also tiny mousepads available for mobile phones that (maybe) could be applied to the top of the space bar. Didn't find simple OEM versions yet.
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: wellington1869 on Tue, 09 June 2009, 13:25:56
low-po, based on your meeting today, what would you say are the main hurdles for VC?
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: wellington1869 on Tue, 09 June 2009, 13:28:50
Quote from: lowpoly;94987


There are also tiny mousepads available for mobile phones that (maybe) could be applied to the top of the space bar. Didn't find simple OEM versions yet.


one possible advantage of a tiny mouspad on spacebar would be tap-click for left button (and additionally possibly maybe even corner-tap functions, tho tap-click by itself would be pretty cool).

Here's another wacky brainstorming idea: Split the spacebar in two, with tiny mouspad in between the two halves. 1/3 1/3 1/3 length.
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: wellington1869 on Tue, 09 June 2009, 13:45:53
btw I really like the 'old school' beige/black model:

(http://www.gesticulations.com/public/gallery/Images/fun/lowpo_old_school.png)


You should call that model "the antique".
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: itlnstln on Tue, 09 June 2009, 13:54:16
Quote from: wellington1869;94993
btw I really like the 'old school' beige/black model:
 
Show Image
(http://www.gesticulations.com/public/gallery/Images/fun/lowpo_old_school.png)

 
 
You should call that model "the antique".

That would be cream and (dark) chocolate. You need to check your contrast. ;)
 
I would hurt people for this 'board.
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: wellington1869 on Tue, 09 June 2009, 13:55:33
Quote from: itlnstln;94997
That would be cream and (dark) chocolate.  You need to check your contrast. ;)


lol, whoops ;)  either way its delicious :)

me wanty!
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: lowpoly on Tue, 09 June 2009, 14:30:59
:smile:

Quote from: wellington1869;94990
low-po, based on your meeting today, what would you say are the main hurdles for VC?
As of now the difficulty to estimate how many people will buy it.
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: wellington1869 on Tue, 09 June 2009, 14:35:51
Quote from: lowpoly;95008
:smile:


As of now the difficulty to estimate how many people will buy it.


can you give them an indication of the overall specialty-keyboard market, maybe by pointing at DSI, Matias, Das (the Das story may be especially analogous to your story)?

And/or maybe do some market research polling to show them the response and interest to your keyboard?

And tell them the size of the actual keyboard market is, technically speaking, "unlimited"? With lots of opportunities therefore for specialization and niche products?

I mean, the keyboard market is a bit like the sneaker market.  The actual size is vast. And its that huge size that provides so much opportunity for innovation, specialization, differentiation, branding etc.

The challenge here isnt the market itself, which is there and is unlimited. The challenge here is in branding and in the right marketing to reach the core trend-setters among the consumers.  To "create a market" for style and innovation and ergonomics  when sorrounded by mass market keyboards that lack all three.
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: lowpoly on Tue, 09 June 2009, 14:44:18
Thanks for the suggestion. It will be hard to get some numbers though. My plan was to create the preview website, submit to some tech blogs and evaluate the response.

I have to sleep over this and re-evaluate tomorrow.

Hires pics of the cream and chocolate mockups:

(http://www.frs635.com/keyboard/miniguru/mockup08.jpg)

(http://www.frs635.com/keyboard/miniguru/mockup09.jpg)
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: wellington1869 on Tue, 09 June 2009, 14:51:15
lowpo - maybe on the preview site, let users put their names on an email list for release information, that may give you some numbers in terms of interest (along with site visits).

Also it would not take very much to put up a table at your local mall on one weekend, take your mockup with you, put up a sign announcing the product, and video tape people's comments and responses to it and ask them if they'd buy it and etc.

You could even hire a company to do that sort of basic polling or market research, it wouldnt cost that much, and may give you more ammunition with the VC guys.

You need to capture the 'gut-level' response that your keyboard elicits. If the VC guys dont see that phenomenon, then you need to make them realize that the consumer market does have that kind of reaction to it.   I mean your board is basically the ipod of keyboards.  You only need to convince your VC guys of that consumer fact.
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: lowpoly on Tue, 09 June 2009, 14:53:59
Quote from: wellington1869;95009
I mean, the keyboard market is a bit like the sneaker market.  The actual size is vast. And its that huge size that provides so much opportunity for innovation, specialization, differentiation, branding etc.

The challenge here isnt the market itself, which is there and is unlimited. The challenge here is in branding and in the right marketing to reach the core trend-setters among the consumers.  To "create a market" for style and innovation and ergonomics  when sorrounded by mass market keyboards that lack all three.
(Last post was before your edit).

 I'll try the sneaker example next time. The marketing argument may backfire. Reaching the core trend-setters may be as difficult as intentionally producing a song that will reach #1. Creating a market may also sound like $$$ to a VC.
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: wellington1869 on Tue, 09 June 2009, 14:56:45
Quote from: lowpoly;95014


 I'll try the sneaker example next time. The marketing argument may backfire. Reaching the core trend-setters may be as difficult as intentionally producing a song that will reach #1. Creating a market may also sound like $$$ to a VC.


I see what you mean. Interesting.

So maybe one thing to do, though, is to show them actual comments from actual users (online or at the mall) to indicate the intensity and level of interest.

Quote

may be as difficult as intentionally producing a song that will reach #1.


well your counter argument there should be:  the song isnt being produced without test marketing and feedback - the right analogy is: here is a demo of a song, and here is what listeners (from radio dj's to people on the street) think about it and how they're reacting to it.
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: chongyixiong on Tue, 09 June 2009, 22:06:37
I've been following this thread for quite awhile, and while the discussion was going on without the 3-D mockup pics, I couldn't quite get the gist of all the technical stuff.. :P

However, the blank black keys with the aluminium-finish silver on the base is SIMPLY wonderful!

Keep up the good job.. anyway I'm still in for one, no matter how long this takes!
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: bhtooefr on Wed, 10 June 2009, 01:34:37
The cream/brown looks awesome. :eek:
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: wellington1869 on Wed, 10 June 2009, 02:07:17
Quote from: bhtooefr;95119
The cream/brown looks awesome. :eek:


thats the one i want too :)

low-po, lets get this thing in a shipping box already. :)
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: bhtooefr on Wed, 10 June 2009, 02:19:59
lowpoly, sent you a PM.
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: lowpoly on Thu, 11 June 2009, 05:10:20
Sorry for not answering so far, I have to mull it over.
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: bigpook on Thu, 11 June 2009, 07:04:56
I agree on the cream version. That chocolate trackpoint is just the coolest looking thing.
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: itlnstln on Thu, 11 June 2009, 07:52:42
Quote from: bigpook;95393
I agree on the cream version. That chocolate trackpoint is just the coolest looking thing.

If this is the only model you make, please make this one.  You will make a lot of people happy.
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: wellington1869 on Thu, 11 June 2009, 11:04:09
Quote from: bhtooefr;95124
lowpoly, sent you a PM.


did you offer to buy his stock of prototype boards? ;)
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: bhtooefr on Thu, 11 June 2009, 11:19:30
No, but I did send him some info on a webcast that he can take it on if he wants, and there MAY be some investors watching (I'm not sure if there actually are or not, but the hosts have been trying to get some.) If nothing else, the audience will love it just because of how well done of a hack it was. ;)

I'll go ahead and link to it... http://www.fatmanandcircuitgirl.com
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: lowpoly on Tue, 16 June 2009, 11:48:30
Thanks for the replies and sorry for answering late, I needed some time off. I'll keep the comments on the cream version in mind. :smile:

Quote from: wellington1869;95013
lowpo - maybe on the preview site, let users put their names on an email list for release information, that may give you some numbers in terms of interest (along with site visits).
Will do. Also different languages.

Quote from: wellington1869;95013
Also it would not take very much to put up a table at your local mall on one weekend, take your mockup with you, put up a sign announcing the product, and video tape people's comments and responses to it and ask them if they'd buy it and etc.
Not sure if this will work with such a specialized product. This was actually one of the counter-arguments in the meeting: advantages not immediately obvious. I should make a pic that shows the "never leave home" scenario. Would have been a nice domain name as well. But it's taken.

Quote from: wellington1869;95013
You could even hire a company to do that sort of basic polling or market research, it wouldnt cost that much, and may give you more ammunition with the VC guys.
I first have to digest that meeting fully.

Quote from: wellington1869;95013
You need to capture the 'gut-level' response that your keyboard elicits. If the VC guys dont see that phenomenon, then you need to make them realize that the consumer market does have that kind of reaction to it.   I mean your board is basically the ipod of keyboards.  You only need to convince your VC guys of that consumer fact.
I actually showed some quotes I collected over the months (and thanks for adding another one, btw. :smile:). I have to talk to a real VC next and continue with the preview site.

Key layout:

If I'm going to participate in the web cast I have to finish the 2nd layer layout. This is still on the todo list. My plan was to put the cursor keys on wasd like bhtooefr suggested but I think I'm not going to do it. Of course wasd is a beautiful concept with it being the de-facto standard for direction keys in the alpha part.

What made me change my mind is that almost everyone will have memorized shift/alt/ctrl combinations with the cursor keys. Putting the cursor keys on the left hand will void the muscle memory for these combinations. So the cursor keys have to be on the right side if you don't want to re-learn your left hand as well.

So which keys. I'm not good with the pinky. So I don't want to have the most used keys on the pinky.

Not having done any statistics I'd estimate that I use the cursor keys the most, then home/end, then page up/down. Leading to the following layout:

Cursor "Inverted T" on J K L and I.
Home/end on ; and '
Pg up/dn on U and O

Insert on M

Print Screen on P
Scroll Lock and Pause on < and >

Let me know what you think of this.
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: wellington1869 on Tue, 16 June 2009, 13:10:50
Quote
Cursor "Inverted T" on J K L and I.
Home/end on ; and '
Pg up/dn on U and O

Insert on M

Print Screen on P
Scroll Lock and Pause on < and >

Let me know what you think of this.



personally i'd like to see this:

(http://geekhack.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=2683&stc=1&d=1245175692)

I think left/home and right/end placed on left side and right side of the inverted T (as above) is intuitive when you're typing. Thats how my own autohotkey layout is, anyway.  I think its intuitive because both keys point to left side or right side when you're reading horizontally left-to-right on the page.  Similarly Pageup/dn stacked vertically is intuitive because you're going vertically up and down with them.

H (control H) is backspace on a lot of systems anyway. I think unix based systems. Would be nice to have the option to have it near home row.  


Quote
Print Screen on P
Scroll Lock and Pause on < and >


Are those keys used so often that you'd want them on the home row? If so, then "<" and ">" are probably fine, but "P" which has to be less used than pageup should maybe move.
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: wellington1869 on Tue, 16 June 2009, 13:14:54
Also, low, can you put the website for the keyboard in your signature here? I always have trouble finding it. Thanks!
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: lowpoly on Wed, 17 June 2009, 07:16:19
Quote from: wellington1869;96786
Also, low, can you put the website for the keyboard in your signature here? I always have trouble finding it. Thanks!
Done. But there's nothing more than in the thread. Preview site coming.

Quote from: wellington1869;96783
personally i'd like to see this:

Show Image
(http://geekhack.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=2683&stc=1&d=1245175692)


I think left/home and right/end placed on left side and right side of the inverted T (as above) is intuitive when you're typing. Thats how my own autohotkey layout is, anyway.  I think its intuitive because both keys point to left side or right side when you're reading horizontally left-to-right on the page.  Similarly Pageup/dn stacked vertically is intuitive because you're going vertically up and down with them.
Thanks for the pic. I agree it seems more logical. Unless you claim any rights, I'd like to go with it. I put home/end on the home row because I use it more often than pgup/dn. I scroll with the mouse or the trackpoint, I guess that's why pgup/dn doesn't get much use anymore.

Quote from: wellington1869;96783
H (control H) is backspace on a lot of systems anyway. I think unix based systems. Would be nice to have the option to have it near home row.  
I have backspace on Fn+space. No position change necessary.

Quote from: wellington1869;96783
Are those keys used so often that you'd want them on the home row? If so, then "<" and ">" are probably fine, but "P" which has to be less used than pageup should maybe move.
These are not on the home row? I only want them on the right half to keep the left half free for user layouts or sound. So PrtSc/ScrlLock/Pause will go to , . - now.

I'll make a render of the final layout.
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: wellington1869 on Wed, 17 June 2009, 08:21:28
Quote
Unless you claim any rights, I'd like to go with it.


i'd be honored.

Quote
These are not on the home row? I only want them on the right half to keep the left half free for user layouts or sound. So PrtSc/ScrlLock/Pause will go to , . - now.

I'll make a render of the final layout.


cool beans :)
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: IBI on Wed, 17 June 2009, 10:52:48
Quote from: lowpoly;96737
Thanks for the replies and sorry for answering late, I needed some time off. I'll keep the comments on the cream version in mind. :smile:


I'll echo that, it's nice to see a more gently coloured peripheral when most things are aggressively coloured in black, white or silver. Although I'm not sure about the brown trackpoint, something closer to the colour of the case might be nicer.

Quote from: lowpoly;96737

Will do. Also different languages.


I think that's a good idea, you never know if it'll particularly take off in one country.

If it's flattering you might also want to provide some pictures/renders of the keyboard in situ in front of a laptop or screen.

I'm sure there'll be plenty of geekhackers willing to spread the word to blogs and forums when you're ready to officially leak it.

Quote from: lowpoly;96737

Cursor "Inverted T" on J K L and I.
Home/end on ; and '
Pg up/dn on U and O

Insert on M

Print Screen on P
Scroll Lock and Pause on < and >

Let me know what you think of this.


Is the FN key the bottom left one?

I think I prefer your layout to wellington's, although I would make one change and move the pgdn key to either N or M as I find it easier to access than U and it's also lower down than the PgUp position.
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: itlnstln on Wed, 17 June 2009, 10:58:32
Quote from: IBI;97061
Although I'm not sure about the brown trackpoint, something closer to the colour of the case might be nicer.

The case is brown; that's why I like it.
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: wellington1869 on Wed, 17 June 2009, 13:06:46
lowpo - one question - will the Fn keys work if used in conjunction with CTRL and other keys? So for example, if you hit Fn+CTRL+Left("J"), will the cursor move one word at a time rather than one character at a time? (ie, for example, in MS Word).

just curious. thanks.
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: lowpoly on Wed, 17 June 2009, 15:11:36
Quote from: IBI;97061
If it's flattering you might also want to provide some pictures/renders of the keyboard in situ in front of a laptop or screen.
There are some on page 16. Have to do "real ones".

Quote from: IBI;97061
Is the FN key the bottom left one?
It's the one with the swirl to the left and right of the space bar. I want two Fn layers in the final version so the one on the right may become Fn2.

Quote from: IBI;97061
I think I prefer your layout to wellington's, although I would make one change and move the pgdn key to either N or M as I find it easier to access than U and it's also lower down than the PgUp position.
I put mine together with ease of use in mind. I compromised on pgup/dn though. I think keys below the home row are easier to reach than above. There has to be a compromise between ease of use and immediate understanding and Welly's suggestion does that very well. You can easily re-program the 'board later.

Quote from: ripster;97113
I always wondered if this is something difficult to change in Firmware or is key layout hardwired in?  The reason I'm asking is the 87U has the ability to download new firmware.   Would be slick to "reflash" your keyboard - grab it and run.
If it can d/l new firmware it should be possible. You'll need the software and data though.

The controller I use in the mini right now can be easily programmed over USB. But the final version may be micro controller based. In that case upgradeable firmware is a must.

Quote from: wellington1869;97132
lowpo - one question - will the Fn keys work if used in conjunction with CTRL and other keys? So for example, if you hit Fn+CTRL+Left("J"), will the cursor move one word at a time rather than one character at a time? (ie, for example, in MS Word).
Yes, would be unusable otherwise, I guess.

Here is the 2nd layer as of now:

[pic outdated, removed]

I moved Ins one to the left and put Del on the M key. I left Del on Fn+Backspace because it's easy to remember. However, Backspace and Del are each twice in the layout so I should remove the Del on Backspace. Too many delete keys may send the wrong message.

Looking at the layout now, I'd rather move Ins to the right of Del and the three rarely used ones to Q W E to reduce the clutter. I'd rather have empty keys around shift, enter and backspace. Less typos that way.
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: lowpoly on Wed, 17 June 2009, 15:38:56
Changed, much better:

 [pic outdated, removed]

I'd like to put Del where PgDn is now but this would tear PgUp/Dn apart. So they would have to be moved below the arrow keys... It probably should stay like it is now.
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: wellington1869 on Wed, 17 June 2009, 15:39:55
Quote
Yes, would be unusable otherwise, I guess.

great, thanks lowpo. Wonderful looking board btw :)  It should ship with those markings on it (ie, without the alphabets but with the cursor control and shortcut markings).

One more question: will your Fn key's keycode be recognizable (and capturable) within Autohotkey so that people can use autohotkey to assign/bind further shortcuts to your Fn key?

Quote
Looking at the layout now, I'd rather move Ins to the right of Del and the three rarely used ones to Q W E to reduce the clutter. I'd rather have empty keys around shift, enter and backspace. Less typos that way.


I think thats a good idea.

Also one more suggestion: Fn+x/c/v = cut copy paste.   I find generally moving fingers to control key for those forces one often to look down to put index finger correctly on x,c,v.  Whereas with the thumb-actuated Fn key, index finger, middle finger, ring finger, can fall naturally onto x,c,v.

another suggestion: Fn+s,d => forward/back (browser media buttons)

and, perhaps, also Fn+r = maximize window; Fn+f=minimize window.

Anyway I think that covers all the major navigational things. :)   You're right tho about finding the right balance between essential functions versus not over-complicating the interface.  Some trial-and-error and 'tuning' work will clarify where that balance is.  You can always practice your set up by putting it into autohotkey and seeing how it 'feels' to you.
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: lowpoly on Wed, 17 June 2009, 15:59:26
Quote from: wellington1869;97192
One more question: will your Fn key's keycode be recognizable (and capturable) within Autohotkey so that people can use autohotkey to assign/bind further shortcuts to your Fn key?
No, the Fn key is internal. You can assign it to a different key but you can't use it as your Autohotkey Fn key.

Quote from: wellington1869;97192
Also one more suggestion: Fn+x/c/v = cut copy paste.   I find generally moving fingers to control key for those forces one often to look down to put index finger correctly on x,c,v.  Whereas with the thumb-actuated Fn key, index finger, middle finger, ring finger, can fall naturally onto x,c,v.

another suggestion: Fn+s,d => forward/back (browser media buttons)

and, perhaps, also Fn+r = maximize window; Fn+f=minimize window.

Anyway I think that covers all the major navigational things. :)   You're right tho about finding the right balance between essential functions versus not over-complicating the interface.  Some trial-and-error and 'tuning' work will clarify where that balance is.  You can always practice your set up by putting it into autohotkey and seeing how it 'feels' to you.
If I'd add more keys it would be vol+- and mute on Fn-Z/X/C.

The examples you give should be done with user programming. Alternate layouts could be provided when shipping.

As for Ctrl-XCV, I have that right now on Fn-SDF. Very convenient but I don't want to put it into the final layout for clutter reasons.
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: wellington1869 on Wed, 17 June 2009, 16:01:12
Quote
As for Ctrl-XCV, I have that right now on Fn-SDF (Fn-A could be Ctrl-A).


thats cool :)  Tho i'd argue moving it to xcv would be easy to remember?

maybe Fn-A could be alt-tab? easy window switching.
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: lowpoly on Wed, 17 June 2009, 16:19:16
Quote from: wellington1869;97207
Tho i'd argue moving it to xcv would be easy to remember?
True. And almost as easy to reach. While I woudn't put this in the final layout (I edited after you posted), this would actually collide with the idea to put sound on Fn-ZXC. So maybe reserve Fn-ASD for the sound.

Quote from: wellington1869;97207
maybe Fn-A could be alt-tab? easy window switching.
Good but also user setting, I think.
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: wellington1869 on Wed, 17 June 2009, 17:22:29
I think I understand your design philosophy here. Basically the keys you're putting on there are existing hardware keys moved from arrow cluster or numpad cluster.  Ie, you're not doing this as "shortcuts" for their own sake.  (Those would be up to the user to implement.)


(Contrast with, for example, the matias optimizer keyboard (http://matias.ca/optimizer/index.php), which has function key shortcuts as shortcuts, despite being a full-sized board with all hardware keys already existing).
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: Z Redux on Wed, 17 June 2009, 21:27:29
Quote from: lowpoly;97186
I moved Ins one to the left and put Del on the M key. I left Del on Fn+Backspace because it's easy to remember. However, Backspace and Del are each twice in the layout so I should remove the Del on Backspace. Too many delete keys may send the wrong message.

I really like the current ideology and progressing implementation of the second layer, with one caveat: removing Delete from Fn+Backspace.

When I learned to type, it was on a 101US Qwerty layout with no Fn key. To use the delete key, I had to leave the home row. If I was slowing down like that, going to the cursor keys then back to the home row and backspacing was quicker than integrating delete. So for me, making corrections by hitting the backspace key with my right pinky became ingrained to the point that I still tend to ignore the delete key - dedicated or Fn - while typing. The current placement on compact layouts (Fn+> or on the spacebar row) feels just as unnatural as going to the block. That's not to say that I don't use the delete key at all, I do, but only when reformatting or working in spreadsheets.

That said, I like the idea of having the delete key twice on the second layer (space, backspace) because it facilitates quick usage under both paradigms I associate with it: correction and formatting. Fn+Backspace seems more natural for corrections while typing... an inverse backspace that deletes the forward character instead of the rear. Likewise, Fn+Space inverts the spacing/formatting key by removing rather than adding.

It may sound odd, but having a split view of the delete key feels quite natural to me. Using the same muscle pattern for something I perceive as two separate uses is jarring and another reason why I learned to ignore the delete key for corrections.

I do agree, from an aesthetic view, that repeating the delete key on the same layer seems a bit cluttered... though in my opinion, the functional advantage outweighs the slight decline in form. Using the Fn key to invert the functions of both the space and backspace keys seems perfect.

Just wanted to share a different point of view. I'll be buying one either way.

-Z
P.S. Matte black with red accents is a timeless classic![/FONT]
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: Rajagra on Wed, 17 June 2009, 22:21:32
Quote from: Z Redux;97257
I do agree, from an aesthetic view, that repeating the delete key on the same layer seems a bit cluttered... though in my opinion, the functional advantage outweighs the slight decline in form.


I agree. Functionality is more important than concerns about people's first impressions. I hope you can stick to your guns and make this the best product you can after considering the pros and cons of each option.

This board is looking fantastic. I don't like ugly bezels around my TVs or monitors, and I don't think keyboards need them either. A compact keyboard with no bezel and built-in trackpoint is pretty much my dream board.
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: wellington1869 on Wed, 17 June 2009, 22:37:31
Quote from: Rajagra;97267
I agree. Functionality is more important than concerns about people's first impressions. .


my guess is what lowpo is trying to do (with only having one delete key) is he's just moving the missing keys from arrow/numpad clusters onto the main part of the board (in a one-to-one way).

As opposed to making shortcuts for their own sake (ie, for instance by duplicating  a key (like delete) or by adding functions like media forw/back buttons (or even cut/copy/paste which arent 'real' buttons but shortcuts on existing buttons)).

I think he feels that those things should be user-created on their own (ie, using autohotkey or some similar software key binding program).

(Or at least, I think thats the philosohpy that he seems to be pursuing). Whether to stick with that, or move into a slightly different philosophy that says "build-in shortcut keys if they make sense", is a different question.  Personally I'd do the latter, but then risk 'busying up' the interface since adding shortcut keys (or duplicates) can easily become a slippery slope.  And its true that I think he has a point that those things COULD be added by the user, separately, quite easily.
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: wellington1869 on Thu, 18 June 2009, 00:19:44
Quote
No, the Fn key is internal. You can assign it to a different key but you can't use it as your Autohotkey Fn key


Thats cool.   If the Fn key is assigned to a different key by the user (how is that done, btw - with dipswitches?), then can the user (using autohotkey or keybinding program) then assign the original swirl key to, say, the windows key? (to take an example).  Just wondering how flexible/fixed will be the Fn-Swirl key. Thanks.
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: lowpoly on Thu, 18 June 2009, 16:07:36
Quote from: Z Redux;97257
I really like the current ideology and progressing implementation of the second layer, with one caveat: removing Delete from Fn+Backspace.
I put it back. It doesn't make the layout look more complex so it doesn't hurt. The only reason I removed it was that people could ask, "why does this 'board need four delete keys? Will my typing be that bad?". The answer, of course, is convenience. I'll put it in the FAQ.

Quote from: wellington1869;97269
my guess is what lowpo is trying to do (with only having one delete key) is he's just moving the missing keys from arrow/numpad clusters onto the main part of the board (in a one-to-one way).

As opposed to making shortcuts for their own sake (ie, for instance by duplicating  a key (like delete) or by adding functions like media forw/back buttons (or even cut/copy/paste which arent 'real' buttons but shortcuts on existing buttons)).

I think he feels that those things should be user-created on their own (ie, using autohotkey or some similar software key binding program).

(Or at least, I think thats the philosohpy that he seems to be pursuing). Whether to stick with that, or move into a slightly different philosophy that says "build-in shortcut keys if they make sense", is a different question.  Personally I'd do the latter, but then risk 'busying up' the interface since adding shortcut keys (or duplicates) can easily become a slippery slope.  And its true that I think he has a point that those things COULD be added by the user, separately, quite easily.
Basically true. There are compromises however. And I want to look at the layout and say "that looks easy" which would be hard to press into a rule set. Of course it's tempting to add all kinds of useful shortcuts, especially with a 2nd function layer. But it won't work for everyone so people are better off doing their own layouts.

And you won't need Autohotkey. See below.

Quote from: wellington1869;97283
Thats cool.   If the Fn key is assigned to a different key by the user (how is that done, btw - with dipswitches?), then can the user (using autohotkey or keybinding program) then assign the original swirl key to, say, the windows key? (to take an example).  Just wondering how flexible/fixed will be the Fn-Swirl key. Thanks.
Right now there is a text file with the rows and columns where you edit the scan cods for the keys. Then you start a small program, connect the keyboard and the layout is automatically downloaded to the keyboard. You can then disconnect the keyboard and connect to a different machine and it will have the new layout.

Not really end-user ready but the software does it's job. To make a key a Fn key you just put $ff into the specific row/column. So, every key can be the Fn key.

Here is the current layout, I moved the PrtSc Block one key to the right to put it on the stronger fingers (semi-rule) and leave a free key between Tab, Ctrl, etc. When adding sound on SDF and clipboard on XCV this will make a nice 3x3 block.

(http://www.lowpoly.com/keyboard/miniguru/mockup12.jpg)
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: wellington1869 on Thu, 18 June 2009, 16:14:36
Quote
Right now there is a text file with the rows and columns where you edit the scan cods for the keys. Then you start a small program, connect the keyboard and the layout is automatically downloaded to the keyboard


Fantastic. :)

One suggestion - consider removing the Fn-space for backspace.  For one thing the delete key is already duplicated; but more importantly, I believe Fn-Space will interefere when typing fast. For example, for a short while I had put ALT-Space as backspace on my keyboard (via autohotkey). What kept happening was - when i was typing fast and using the alt key for other shortcuts (as the swirl key too will be used for other shortcuts), and then you hit space to continue typing the next word, and often times your thumb hasnt left the ALT (in this case, Fn) key yet, and so instead of a space, you get a backspace.

This was one of those ergo-problems that only happened on the spacebar, in part I think because the spacebar is so often used and its so big and easy to hit, that people may tend to hit it faster/sooner than other keys, and often times they havent let go of the Fn key yet when they hit it, when typing fast.
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: lowpoly on Thu, 18 June 2009, 16:25:45
I must admit that I love the Fn-space backspace. When I haven't used the mini for some time it only takes me a few minutes to get used to fn-space again (unlike other combinations).

Well, as soon as you add more fn shortcuts you are using the layout software anyway and can easily remove this one. It would only be a problem if it would interfere with the standard 2nd layer layout. More likely to happen with Alt as this is being used extensively by programs as well.
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: wellington1869 on Thu, 18 June 2009, 16:59:54
Quote
Right now there is a text file with the rows and columns where you edit the scan cods for the keys. Then you start a small program, connect the keyboard and the layout is automatically downloaded to the keyboard


Btw lowpo - if your keyboard's firmware/layout is that easily re-programmable, that has got to be THE most major selling point and feature of this keyboard (aside from its killer looks). I hope you are appropriately focusing on that feature when you talk to the VC folks, cuz for all the geeks out there, this is a truly unique and very useful feature. I dont know of any other keyboard that is so easily reprogrammable as this.  (For that matter, I dont know of any reprogrammable keyboard, period, still in production today! Let alone one that looks like this)
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: fuzzybyte on Fri, 24 July 2009, 00:28:13
no scroll wheel?
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: lowpoly on Fri, 24 July 2009, 03:10:51
No. I plan to add a middle button, a black horizontal stripe of plastic between the buttons that are already there. Middle button + pointing stick = scrolling.

As for updates, I'm under heavy workload right now so things progress slowly. Still working on the layouts and text for the preview site.

I also made a set of white keys but forgot my camera somewhere. Pics soon.
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: o2dazone on Fri, 24 July 2009, 08:55:22
Quote from: lowpoly;104065
I also made a set of white keys but forgot my camera somewhere. Pics soon.


!!!
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: lowpoly on Fri, 24 July 2009, 10:40:02
Someone already posted some of my pics:

http://www.kbdmania.net/xe/?mid=photo&page=31&document_srl=581774 (http://www.kbdmania.net/xe/?mid=photo&page=31&document_srl=581774)
http://www.kbdmania.net/xe/?mid=photo&page=31&document_srl=581763 (http://www.kbdmania.net/xe/?mid=photo&page=31&document_srl=581763)

One of the comments was "finally something new", IIRC. Exactly like you said.

The preview site will be english, german (my home market), japanese, korean.

I'll need some help with translation for Korean so I'm going to post in the english kbdmania forum when the website is a bit more final.
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: lowpoly on Mon, 03 August 2009, 12:00:35
I finished the designs for the preview site. Including the configurator and the programming software. Also some text already done.

I'd appreciate some input but hesitate to put this in the public because I haven't trademarked the names yet. I'm not that sure about the names, so there's some reluctance.

For now,  please PM (http://geekhack.org/private.php?do=newpm&u=1188) me for the URL and password. Or post a request here. My apologies to non-members.

Oh, and these are just pics. Prev/next links in the upper right.
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: rdjack21 on Mon, 03 August 2009, 12:16:03
Yes be very careful with your names and stuff if you intend to trademark them.

I've been lurking on this thread for a bit and really have to say I like where you are going with this board. I really like the programmability of it which is going to be one of if not the biggest selling point of the board to the mass market. I wish I could get a HHKB Pro that was similarly programmable or that you could make this board with Topre switches. But no matter I still think you have a winner.

EDIT: Fix up to some bad typing I've been coding to long today.
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: lowpoly on Mon, 03 August 2009, 12:31:33
Ah, I changed "lurkers" to "non-members" in my previous post. That was what I meant.

Not sure how much and where I'm going to trademark.
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: fuzzybyte on Mon, 03 August 2009, 15:57:20
woah, the previews look super awesome.

i don't think the name matters much as long as it's a good product. i'm sure it would sell well even if you would name it something unimaginative like Model M.
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: itlnstln on Mon, 03 August 2009, 16:04:23
Quote from: fuzzybyte;106621
woah, the previews look super awesome.
 
i don't think the name matters much as long as it's a good product. i'm sure it would sell well even if you would name it something unimaginative like Model M.

I would name it the Model L, or the Realpoly, or the Majespoly.
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: rdjack21 on Mon, 03 August 2009, 18:19:37
I would think "Type-in-Style M?" Where if he decides to offer the board in different switches he could just change the M number so:

M1 - Topre (wishful thinking )
M2 - Blue Cherry
M3 - Brown Cherry
M4 - BS
M5 - Alps White
M6 - Alps Black
ect...

Or what ever he wants. Anyways just a thought.
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: Rajagra on Mon, 03 August 2009, 19:32:33
Another thought. Might it be worth having a Fn-Lock feature? E.g. pressing both left and right Fn keys would set Fn-Lock, pressing both again would release it. (Or maybe pressing either on its own to release? Or even resetting after an inactive timeout period.)

This might not be useful for the standard layout, but it could be handy for user defined keys.

(Hope this hasn't already been discussed.)
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: bigpook on Mon, 03 August 2009, 19:56:20
Quote from: itlnstln;106629
I would name it the Model L, or the Realpoly, or the Majespoly.


NewM

New-M

New M

my 2 cents
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: Kraicheck on Tue, 04 August 2009, 01:31:32
I actually like the original working title: the trackpoint mini.
You never need to explain its use, it's right there in the name.
Rolls off the tongue rather pleasantly too.

Could you get sued for using the word "trackpoint"?
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: keyb_gr on Tue, 04 August 2009, 04:05:22
That's still an IBM trademark I guess, so one would have to acknowledge that. Something with "Mini" wouldn't be that bad though. Hmm, what else could one call a genuine geekboard...?
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: lal on Tue, 04 August 2009, 04:24:51
Please keep the "M" out of the picture.  This board has absolutely nothing to do with it.

What about "Miniclick"? :)
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: bigpook on Tue, 04 August 2009, 05:33:42
I wasn't thinking of the Model M though, I was thinking of Neuman on Seinfeld.
How about calling it "the betty"?
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: lowpoly on Tue, 04 August 2009, 12:05:30
Quote from: Rajagra;106715
Another thought. Might it be worth having a Fn-Lock feature? E.g. pressing both left and right Fn keys would set Fn-Lock, pressing both again would release it. (Or maybe pressing either on its own to release? Or even resetting after an inactive timeout period.)

This might not be useful for the standard layout, but it could be handy for user defined keys.
I cannot say if the final controller will allow this. There's always the possibility to use a mechanical locking switch. I agree that something like this would make sense, for ex. for using QWERTY on layer 1 and Colemak on layer 3. I have the mechanical switch already on my list as an add-on for the shop.

Quote from: Kraicheck;106767
I actually like the original working title: the trackpoint mini.
You never need to explain its use, it's right there in the name.
Rolls off the tongue rather pleasantly too.

Could you get sued for using the word "trackpoint"?
Can't use Trackpoint, that would be an invitation for some nasty letters. I only use it with my prototype because it uses an actual Trackpoint. Even there I try to get rid of the word.


Thanks for the great name suggestions. Some were very close to my runner-ups. Which I'll keep for myself right now as I may need them in the future. I wouldn't have started looking for a new name until I ditched the old one. In any case, there are two names, one for a product group, one for the actual 'board model. At least one of these has to start with a G as I want to keep the swirl, if possible.

I have/had some problems with the name being too pompous or lacking subtlety. As this didn't come up yet and I got some encouragement, I'll stick with it for now. The model name will look great on t-shirts. I already made some designs, have to check the local shops for printing.

So, programming the preview site and the trademark stuff are next. I also didn't forget the white keycap pics (one of the swirl stickers I printed is already wearing off, lol).
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: lowpoly on Fri, 07 August 2009, 11:55:04
Quote from: webwit;106983
It is a great name and uses a very fashionable name element that does well. Also allows for a product line. Maybe pompous (like elitekeyboards) but that's marketing. Could have been worse. You could have been an American who orders keyboards in Taiwan and called it "Das Keyboard" or something. But this one has a definite positive cognitive association though.

:) Thanks for the comment (and for editing the name out).

White keycaps:

(http://www.lowpoly.com/keyboard/miniguru/01_white_keys.jpg)

(http://www.lowpoly.com/keyboard/miniguru/02_white_keys.jpg)

(http://www.lowpoly.com/keyboard/miniguru/03_white_keys.jpg)

(http://www.lowpoly.com/keyboard/miniguru/04_white_keys.jpg)

I have to thank lal who gave me a good deal on the donor board. I hope you don't mind I used it for this.

I semi-ruined the G key because I didn't pay attention and started filing off the wrong corner. As the cutout is too big anyway I'll do G and H again when I remove the symbols. On the black caps this didn't stand out as much.

I sanded off the symbols on some keys which is hard work and will not come out perfect. PBT is tough stuff.

The left swirl is already wearing off. Laser printed on matte transparent foil. Supposedly weather proof but apparently not wear proof.
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: lal on Fri, 07 August 2009, 12:03:55
Looks fantastic!

Quote from: lowpoly;107949
I have to thank lal who gave me a good deal on the donor board. I hope you don't mind I used it for this.


No, I'm honored :)  I felt the same about that deal btw.
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: rdjack21 on Fri, 07 August 2009, 12:29:09
Wow I'm liking that white one better than the black. It just needs a Red Esc key to finish it off.

Also just wondering when you get around to actual production what switch are you going to use? Browns or Blues
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: lowpoly on Fri, 07 August 2009, 12:35:18
Browns, blues and reds if it works out like I want it.
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: o2dazone on Fri, 07 August 2009, 12:53:36
sexyyyyyyyyyyyyy
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: wellington1869 on Fri, 07 August 2009, 13:17:08
lowpo, if you can convince somene to manufacture this, you'll all make millions. I cant believe the venture capitalists can be so thick as to not realize that.
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: lowpoly on Fri, 07 August 2009, 13:20:53
They had no chance yet to realize it. I had this one meeting I wrote about and decided to go into the next one with better preparation (the preview site).

I wish I could put more time into this right now.
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: wellington1869 on Fri, 07 August 2009, 13:25:08
Quote from: lowpoly;107984


I wish I could put more time into this right now.


you really should bro. keyboard fans are obviously convinced you've got a winner here.

Even i would buy the blue cherry version ;) I'm not a fan of the cherries but i'd love to have that form factor
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: inornate on Fri, 07 August 2009, 13:26:00
lowpoly/ what controller are you using now? I heard that it's reprogrammable. - got interested.
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: lowpoly on Fri, 07 August 2009, 13:39:33
Quote from: inornate;107986
lowpoly/ what controller are you using now? I heard that it's reprogrammable. - got interested.

GETT TKC8000 (http://www.gett.de/shop/special/KTR/KTRTAST.html?start=4&sel=KC08000). It is tiny. 45x25mm.

It is based on the KeyWarrior (http://www.codemercs.com/index.php?id=37&L=1) by CodeMercenaries.

The only disadvantage with this chip right now is the Fn rollover behavior mentioned earlier in the thread. And maybe that the USB/PS2 selection depends on the cable/connector used. Would be better if it happened inside the chip so a simple adapter could be used on a USB cable.
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: talis on Sat, 08 August 2009, 00:26:36
Is that a Cypress controller they're using?  I keep thinking about switching to them over the PIC I'm using now for my custom controller.  I'd be interested to know the exact part number if you know it.
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: lowpoly on Sat, 08 August 2009, 04:07:40
Have to check.

Have two more of the GETT controllers on the shelf. Connected to the keyboards nobody else wanted when they appeared on ebay.
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: yinzen on Sun, 23 August 2009, 12:02:42
I am *so* looking forward to being able to own one of these keybaords *droool* (oh, who am I kididng I will probably own 3 so I can have one of each keyswitch type :happy:).

Notwithstanding the incredible minimalist design and built in trackpoint, I am most excited about the reprogrammable firmware.  I have wanted so much to make a layout that uses capslock as a meta key and then have the vi cursor movements available everywhere, as these are the best format for moving a cursor around imo, rarely need to leave the homerow that way.  

I can't wait, please make sure reprogramming is as easy as possible and as flexible as possible!  Also, will it be able to make macros too?  Like a specified keycombo sends a series of keycodes instead of just 1:1 mapping?
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: lowpoly on Sun, 23 August 2009, 12:52:40
The "better" version of the controller I use now allows macros and 3 layers. The number of macros is limited (like 30 or 40) but that will do I think, you still can re-program the other keys.

I think I'll prefer a micro controller based solution to allow for firmware updates as well. So how much memory there'll be is unclear as of now.
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: watduzhkstand4 on Tue, 25 August 2009, 12:22:22
@ lowpoly
I would like to have the shiny all black one with red/blue switches please thanks =D
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: rdjack21 on Tue, 25 August 2009, 12:42:47
Quote from: watduzhkstand4;111786
@ lowpoly
I would like to have the shiny all black one with red/blue switches please thanks =D


What I would really love is Topre switches in this board even though I know that would drive the cost up.

lowploy,

Checked your site out again today noticed that you have put a few more renderings up. Just out of curiosity what are you using to render the boards?
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: watduzhkstand4 on Tue, 25 August 2009, 12:51:29
Quote from: rdjack21;111789
What I would really love is Topre switches in this board even though I know that would drive the cost up.

lowploy,

Checked your site out again today noticed that you have put a few more renderings up. Just out of curiosity what are you using to render the boards?


lol I don't know about this one. I don't want two boards with similar form factor to use the same switches =D
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: wellington1869 on Tue, 25 August 2009, 13:00:59
I still want to eat the beige/brown one.  Looks delicious.

Come on lowpo, lets get this thing onto that taiwanese assembly line already :)
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: rdjack21 on Tue, 25 August 2009, 13:16:11
Quote from: watduzhkstand4;111791
lol I don't know about this one. I don't want two boards with similar form factor to use the same switches =D


It's the programmability of it that I'm after. Don't really like cherry blues and the browns feel flat after typing on a Topre. Don't know about the reds though I've not tried those. But if they have the high pitch click of the blues I will not like it.
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: keyb_gr on Tue, 25 August 2009, 14:51:56
Quote from: rdjack21;111794
It's the programmability of it that I'm after. Don't really like cherry blues and the browns feel flat after typing on a Topre. Don't know about the reds though I've not tried those. But if they have the high pitch click of the blues I will not like it.

Reds should be like non-tactile browns, or light blacks... i.e. light linear switches.
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: rdjack21 on Tue, 25 August 2009, 15:03:28
Don't think I would like those either. Oh well when he gets it to market I guess I will just have to settle on browns.
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: wellington1869 on Tue, 25 August 2009, 15:53:05
Quote from: rdjack21;111817
Don't think I would like those either. Oh well when he gets it to market I guess I will just have to settle on browns.


i wont like those either; a linear brown will be even lighter than the browns. thats why i'm 'settling' for blues on this board i guess.

I can understand why lowpo pretty much has to go with cherries though, at least initially. Not much choice; they're the only ones being mass marketed right now. XM's arent great and have a much smaller market; BS would have to be outsourced to unicomp? Topres would be frightfully expensive; And all the other switches are dead.
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: rdjack21 on Tue, 25 August 2009, 16:31:46
If he could keep the price of a Topre version in the range of a HHKB Pro then I would not have an issue paying for it. And Topre does have a history of doing OEM boards. But I'm sure he could not do a Topre at first but I still like the idea.

The problem I have is the more I type on The Topre's the more I like them. I plugged my brown Filco in the other day and I have to say it was a disappointment it just felt flat and had zero character compared to my HHKB Pro.
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: itlnstln on Tue, 25 August 2009, 16:35:18
You know, for as much as this might cost, he may want to look into having them done by Topre since they will already be expensive.  That, and he might make just as much money selling the design to someone like Topre, and just let them deal with manufacturing and selling the 'boards, although, I do think it would compete with the HHKB unless they use Lowpoly's design as the HHKB Pro 3.
 
Then again, Cherry blues won the last poll.
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: wellington1869 on Tue, 25 August 2009, 17:04:39
Quote from: itlnstln;111847
That, and he might make just as much money selling the design to someone like Topre, and just let them deal with manufacturing and selling the 'boards.


for that matter, why not also license it out to unicomp too, if they'll take it? Since they seem too lazy to come up with their own 'mini' design...
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: watduzhkstand4 on Tue, 25 August 2009, 20:04:16
I say we should just go with the Cherry blues then -.-
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: bigpook on Tue, 25 August 2009, 20:50:02
Quote from: wellington1869;111831
i wont like those either; a linear brown will be even lighter than the browns. thats why i'm 'settling' for blues on this board i guess.

I can understand why lowpo pretty much has to go with cherries though, at least initially. Not much choice; they're the only ones being mass marketed right now. XM's arent great and have a much smaller market; BS would have to be outsourced to unicomp? Topres would be frightfully expensive; And all the other switches are dead.


You know, those new fukka switches are pretty decent. I wouldn't mind seeing a lowpoly keyboard sporting them. Otherwise, I would probably go with the blue cherry.
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: wellington1869 on Tue, 25 August 2009, 21:08:44
are fukka's basically xm's?  
someone has to give them a medal for the name.
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: watduzhkstand4 on Wed, 26 August 2009, 00:32:34
lmfao I say someone needs so make audio clip for the fukkas =D
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: lowpoly on Wed, 26 August 2009, 03:54:31
Quote from: rdjack21;111789
What I would really love is Topre switches in this board even though I know that would drive the cost up.

lowploy,

Checked your site out again today noticed that you have put a few more renderings up. Just out of curiosity what are you using to render the boards?
Topre switches are not very likely for various reasons. For ex. the controller will not work with capacitive switches, IMO.

The 3Ds were built in Rhino and Wings (http://www.wings3d.com), rendered in Maya.

Quote from: wellington1869;111793
I still want to eat the beige/brown one.  Looks delicious.

Come on lowpo, lets get this thing onto that taiwanese assembly line already :)
The common assembly line won't work with the configurator. Have to order parts and assemble them at the distributors. If I'd just decide on a few variants it might be possible. But the configurator is important for me. Production on demand via the internet. It's the future. Have a look at the preview dummy.
 (http://geekhack.org/showpost.php?p=106463&postcount=347)
Quote from: webwit;111857
Anyway, I don't think this is an issue for him unless I stand corrected. The Cherries are available and reliable.
Yepp. And they don't need a mounting plate. There's just no space for a regular mounting plate. It would require tests to see if a compromised mouting plate would work with Alps. With BS similar problems arise, for ex. it would be difficult to lead the membrane traces to the controller. It would require a sharp bend.

I have an idea for a switch with a smooth tactile curve. The first test worked quite well. So that would be a (remote) possibility.
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: rdjack21 on Wed, 26 August 2009, 09:45:16
Quote from: lowpoly;111973
Topre switches are not very likely for various reasons. For ex. the controller will not work with capacitive switches, IMO.

I guess I need to think about this some more. I've been thinking of putting my own controller in a Topre board but not even sure where to find one to begin with. But I have noticed that the controller in the HHKB has few more chips on it but I thought those were related to the USB Hub not so much dealing with the switches. I guess I need to take apart a Realforce and see what they are using for a controller and maybe go from their.

Quote

The 3Ds were built in Rhino and Wings (http://www.wings3d.com), rendered in Maya.

The reason I asked is I'm also thinking of writing a keyboard layout tool and was thinking I would use OpenGL for rendering the keys and such.
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: bigpook on Wed, 26 August 2009, 10:39:37
I just got the filco tenless with the fukka switches. Its a noticeable improvement over the original XM's.


When I have some time I will post pictures of the switch internals. I still have some of the white XM switches so it will be interesting to see the difference.

I won't say much else about the fukka's. Let me run it for a week or so, then  I can be more objective.
First impressions are postive though.
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: wellington1869 on Wed, 26 August 2009, 11:03:53
Quote from: webwit;112049
I am also positive about the fukka's. But, first I thought I liked them more than the real Alps, but now they do feel a bit more heavy.


how do they compare to the real simplifieds?
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: bigpook on Wed, 26 August 2009, 11:31:34
that why I want to run it for a couple of weeks or so. I really like the black alps out of the Dell AT101.
The fukka's are a bit heavier and louder. I will have a better idea in a week or so. So far so good though. The XM's didn't take long before they were heavy and balky. Well see.
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: wellington1869 on Wed, 26 August 2009, 14:22:05
I just want to say lowpo's preview site -*blew*.*my*.*mind*-

I'm speechless.

Lowpo's going to be rich - i'd bet money on that.

This is the future of keyboards.  If you dont believe me, look at the preview site.

(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3159/2944770996_fb973f01e6.jpg)
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: rdjack21 on Wed, 26 August 2009, 14:47:47
I haven't taken a look yet. I keep meaning to but just haven't gotten around to it yet. I'm spending way to much time digging up Topre boards right now.
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: wellington1869 on Wed, 26 August 2009, 14:50:35
You have to login like three times, btw.

The only thing I can think of to improve lowpo's creation is for him to eventually be able to offer different kinds of switches (thus making the switch option just as configurable as all the other options (color, layout, etc) that he has.)

That can come later though. But would be awesome to have switch choice beyond cherries. Maybe after an initial success with cherries other switch companies will be interested in taking it on.
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: wellington1869 on Wed, 26 August 2009, 15:02:15
Quote from: lowpoly;111973

I have an idea for a switch with a smooth tactile curve. The first test worked quite well. So that would be a (remote) possibility.


btw lowpo, this is intriguing. A smooth tactile curve? You mean same resistance level thruout the downstroke? Sounds interesting, potentially a 'meaty' feel. Which would be good.
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: AndrewZorn on Thu, 27 August 2009, 02:50:48
not that i read all 27 pages but i am confused.  are these for sale or will they be for sale, or do people WANT them to be for sale?
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: itlnstln on Thu, 27 August 2009, 08:23:11
Quote from: AndrewZorn;112241
not that i read all 27 pages but i am confused. are these for sale or will they be for sale, or do people WANT them to be for sale?

What you see is Lowpoly's prototype.  He is trying to work with OEMs to get them produced.
 
Bottom line: It's not for sale, but he's working on it.
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: rdjack21 on Thu, 27 August 2009, 09:04:04
And don't forget he is also trying to get financing as well. Once he gets that though the rest should just fall in place.
Title: Thumbs up!!!
Post by: clickclack on Fri, 28 August 2009, 16:14:03
I DIG IT!!!
So I checked out the preview site and not only was I impressed, but I was really excited! I suggest checking it out!

So I have a few design questions/comments for ya lowpoly...

- The back plate of the keyboard reminds me of a few IBM keyboards that I have at the moment.They had this tapered bevel/chamfer that raised to the back (similar triangle wedge to what you have under there). I mention this because not only did it look good, but it felt solid (considering how tiny and thin it was) and left a nice gap so things like cords could be tucked a bit better.

-Do you push down (just off the edge of the space bar) on those mouse tabs/buttons or do you push in? Or does it even mater because its similar to a lever?
I absolutely love that design, as I just looked down at my hands and that is where they are!!! What an easy and intuitive movement!

-Do you have a problem with or would you imagine there being a problem with the edges of the keys exposed like that? (no protective border to the sides of the keyboard)
I have used and messed with hundreds of keyboards, and in light use (a slight bang or snag) keys do pop off or could break the stem.
I mention this because it looks like one could easily snag the outside edges of the keys.

Sorry for the long post, but this is so very interesting :)
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: lowpoly on Sat, 29 August 2009, 09:59:46
Quote from: wellington1869;112093
Lowpo's going to be rich - i'd bet money on that.

LOL, experience tells me it's not going to happen.

Quote from: wellington1869;112110
You have to login like three times, btw.

It's because of the URL redirect I use. Or because I changed the user/password. Or... I looked into it and gave up. Sorry for the inconvenience. Better click on 'remember password'.

Quote from: wellington1869;112117
btw lowpo, this is intriguing. A smooth tactile curve? You mean same resistance level thruout the downstroke? Sounds interesting, potentially a 'meaty' feel. Which would be good.

No, not same resistance. A Cherry brown for ex. has a short tactile peak. A rubber dome has a longer peak. More like that. The switch will be kind of expensive though. If it works at all.

Quote from: clickclack;112762
The back plate of the keyboard reminds me of a few IBM keyboards that I have at the moment.They had this tapered bevel/chamfer that raised to the back (similar triangle wedge to what you have under there). I mention this because not only did it look good, but it felt solid (considering how tiny and thin it was) and left a nice gap so things like cords could be tucked a bit better.

It's mainly a design issue for me. Makes the case look much smaller from various angles. Also, makes the case smaller. :-)

Quote from: clickclack;112762
Do you push down (just off the edge of the space bar) on those mouse tabs/buttons or do you push in? Or does it even mater because its similar to a lever?
I absolutely love that design, as I just looked down at my hands and that is where they are!!! What an easy and intuitive movement!

You push them in. Currently the rotation axis is at the lower edge.

Quote from: clickclack;112762
Do you have a problem with or would you imagine there being a problem with the edges of the keys exposed like that? (no protective border to the sides of the keyboard)
I have used and messed with hundreds of keyboards, and in light use (a slight bang or snag) keys do pop off or could break the stem.
I mention this because it looks like one could easily snag the outside edges of the keys.


The keys are not as protected as with a regular bezel. With normal use it shouldn't be a problem. I already dropped it from considerable height and the keys didn't get damaged. Of course this depends on the crash angle.

I can imagine that throwing it in a bag with lots of other stuff may result in scratches or a popped key. But you shouldn't do that anyway. Maybe a soft bag would be good as standard equipment.

And you shouldn't lift the whole 'board on one or two keys. Maybe this will require a sticker on the bottom.
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: ed_ on Sat, 29 August 2009, 10:10:23
What about the keys getting snagged; for example, reaching across your desk while wearing long sleeves?
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: lowpoly on Sat, 29 August 2009, 11:22:14
Quote from: ed_;112898
What about the keys getting snagged; for example, reaching across your desk while wearing long sleeves?


I just tried it (fast!). Nothing happens. The keyboard slides away, that's it.
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: JBert on Sun, 30 August 2009, 18:00:42
Quote from: lowpoly;112894
The keys are not as protected as with a regular bezel. With normal use it shouldn't be a problem. I already dropped it from considerable height and the keys didn't get damaged. Of course this depends on the crash angle.

I can imagine that throwing it in a bag with lots of other stuff may result in scratches or a popped key. But you shouldn't do that anyway. Maybe a soft bag would be good as standard equipment.

And you shouldn't lift the whole 'board on one or two keys. Maybe this will require a sticker on the bottom.
Maybe you need to design a complementary "keyboard lid" which closes the top of the keyboard. Of course, you'd still need a way to keep it closed...
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: AndrewZorn on Mon, 31 August 2009, 01:46:31
Quote from: JBert;113198
Maybe you need to design a complementary "keyboard lid" which closes the top of the keyboard. Of course, you'd still need a way to keep it closed...
this is what i thought, if nothing else, a cheap accessory like a lens cover: nothing fancy, no locking mechanism, just a tight fitting soft plastic top... enough to make it okay to store and transport.

EDIT also, aside from Topre switches, this keyboard improves on everything i want from the HHKB.  how soon are we talking about here?  i would really hate for this thing to start production right after i buy HHKB.
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: lowpoly on Mon, 31 August 2009, 11:55:13
Quote from: JBert;113198
Maybe you need to design a complementary "keyboard lid" which closes the top of the keyboard. Of course, you'd still need a way to keep it closed...
This would be indeed nice. Considering the "low" quantities, every additional plastic part will be expensive, requiring construction, a mold, etc.

I want to have some accessories though, I have a long list already. :-)

Quote from: AndrewZorn;113270
EDIT also, aside from Topre switches, this keyboard improves on everything i want from the HHKB.  how soon are we talking about here?  i would really hate for this thing to start production right after i buy HHKB.
At least a year from now. I'll probably need at least two more months for the preview site. And funding alone can take a year. Then final construction, then the required tests (EMV, packing, etc.). Then production.
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: wellington1869 on Sat, 12 September 2009, 17:40:30
Lowpo, I hope you're planning on making it true NKRO -- both, fast typists and gamers, will thank you endlessly for it, as we increasingly realize how valuable that feature really is for those two classes of keyboard users. :-)
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: lowpoly on Sun, 13 September 2009, 16:47:07
I plan a diode for every switch. Not sure about ps/2. Only the combo ps/2 makes sense (with that passive usb/ps2 adapter) but I imagine it will vastly complicate controller programming.
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: eugenius on Sat, 24 October 2009, 00:24:11
ETA and price?  Convince me not to get a Topre Brown Tenkeyless. :)
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: lowpoly on Sat, 24 October 2009, 06:00:23
Quote from: eugenius;127983
ETA and price?

At least a year from now. No idea about pricing yet. There are too many unknown factors.

Quote from: eugenius;127983
Convince me not to get a Topre Brown Tenkeyless. :)

That's easy, it doesn't exist. :-)

I'm almost through with the english version of the preview site. A single nasty bug is still on my list.
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: lowpoly on Sat, 24 October 2009, 12:33:02
No, I moved the project to the root of the new domain. The old directory is gone. All of you who requested a passwort before will get an update mail, probably early next week.

Password protection will have to stay until the languages are complete.

The bug is some JavaScript crap when loading the rotate views. Looks like the onload event fires too early resulting in the image shown when it still contains the last keyboard viewed. I have a vague idea how to work around this.
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: fuzzybyte on Sat, 24 October 2009, 16:46:39
aren't the mouse buttons in the way of thumbs for space bar? would it not be better to place them more closer together in the center?
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: lowpoly on Sun, 25 October 2009, 14:29:10
Quote from: fuzzybyte;128063
aren't the mouse buttons in the way of thumbs for space bar? would it not be better to place them more closer together in the center?

Not sure if I understand this correctly. You can press the spacebar and the mouse buttons will not interfere. They will even work with the spacebar pressed down. If I put my hands on the homerow with my wrists straight then the thumbs will point at the mouse buttons.
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: lowpoly on Sun, 25 October 2009, 14:45:40
UPDATE

The preview site programming is finished, content only in english so far. PM me for URL and user/pw.

The configurator is working.

Only one login necessary with the correct URL. :-)

You can switch to other languages but the content will be english and most likely dated. So make sure you switch back to english after having a look.

PM to those who already have a password is on its way.

Please do not post the name(s) yet. Thanks.
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: Rajagra on Sun, 25 October 2009, 15:24:39
Quote from: lowpoly;128174
Please do not post the name(s) yet. Thanks.

(Cough!)
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: lowpoly on Sun, 25 October 2009, 15:27:49
Edit: :-)

I didn't change anything since the designs. xxxx-board is more like a label. minixxxx is one model under that label. Not saying there will be more models but that was the idea.
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: o2dazone on Mon, 26 October 2009, 00:25:22
God, the preview site just made me so much more excited about the board.
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: Hakhu on Mon, 26 October 2009, 02:27:40
Excellent update.

I love playing with the configurator. ;-)

One item for the wishlist:

What keeps me from buying a current Cherry board is, that all keys have the same color. The old boards with duo-tone (function keys are grey) looks so much better. And it's not just me, two of my collegues are hunting ebay for duo-tone Cherrys.

So it would be great if the configuration allowed for different color function keys (tab, caps, shift, ctrl, alt, fn, enter, backspace).
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: vyshane on Wed, 28 October 2009, 09:42:52
Been playing with the configurator. So many variations and they all look awesome. Good luck finding the right combination indeed! I might have to buy a few!

Just a thought, maybe you could allow us to register our interest. Maybe a form to submit an email address. I would like to be notified when the boards make it to the market.
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: lowpoly on Wed, 28 October 2009, 10:04:05
Thanks for the comments.

Quote from: Hakhu
What keeps me from buying a current Cherry board is, that all keys have the same color. The old boards with duo-tone (function keys are grey) looks so much better. And it's not just me, two of my collegues are hunting ebay for duo-tone Cherrys.

I'll keep it in mind. There are a lot of color combinations already, several colors times several languages and different physical layouts. Probably not even all of those will make it into the production configurator.

Quote from: vyshane
Just a thought, maybe you could allow us to register our interest.

You can register for the newsletter, link is at the bottom of the page. I thought about putting an image link somewhere on the home page, maybe I should do that.
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: timw4mail on Wed, 28 October 2009, 11:01:47
I have a few comments:

I really like the idea :)

Is there a possibility of a non-staggered key layout?

And the configurator does not work in Opera.
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: lowpoly on Wed, 28 October 2009, 11:49:06
Quote from: timw4mail;128789
I have a few comments:

I really like the idea :)

Is there a possibility of a non-staggered key layout?

And the configurator does not work in Opera.


Thanks. :-)

A non-staggered board would require even more custom keycaps. So this is probably not going to happen.

As for Opera, my ambition to deliver cross-browser compatible programming collapsed after it worked in IE8. Just checked the site in Opera 10. Looks like Opera finally renders pixel-sized fonts correctly. I'll look into the JavaScript issues. Thanks for bringing this up.
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: timw4mail on Wed, 28 October 2009, 11:56:15
Quote from: lowpoly;128801
Thanks. :-)

A non-staggered board would require even more custom keycaps. So this is probably not going to happen.

As for Opera, my ambition to deliver cross-browser compatible programming collapsed after it worked in IE8. Just checked the site in Opera 10. Looks like Opera finally renders pixel-sized fonts correctly. I'll look into the JavaScript issues. Thanks for bringing this up.

Really, I think you could use more of one size of keycap, rather than more custom keycaps. It would require a different PCB, probably, though.
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: lowpoly on Wed, 28 October 2009, 12:29:15
It would require a different pcb.

But if you want to fit a non-staggered layout into the existing (to be) case you will also need different caps around the pointing stick. And some more keys at the left and right borders. Let's say we keep the number row. For the tab key to fit with the number row it would have to have a width of either one or two regular keys. But a 2x key for cylindrical cross-section probably does not exist so in would be custom.

Might be easier with non-cylindrical POS keys but this would require a different custom spacebar.
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: timw4mail on Wed, 28 October 2009, 12:40:17
Quote from: lowpoly;128825
It would require a different pcb.

But if you want to fit a non-staggered layout into the existing (to be) case you will also need different caps around the pointing stick. And some more keys at the left and right borders. Let's say we keep the number row. For the tab key to fit with the number row it would have to have a width of either one or two regular keys. But a 2x key for cylindrical cross-section probably does not exist so in would be custom.

Might be easier with non-cylindrical POS keys but this would require a different custom spacebar.

Or, you could make it without the pointing stick, use the same size tab keys, and do something like this:
http://timshomepage.net/layout.php
The "lowpoly" layout.
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: lowpoly on Wed, 28 October 2009, 12:49:10
Nice css on that page.

That wouldn't fit the case though, Backspace would have to be wider.
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: timw4mail on Wed, 28 October 2009, 13:03:28
Quote from: lowpoly;128839
Nice css on that page.

That wouldn't fit the case though, Backspace would have to be wider.

That's a shame.  It would certainly be nice to have the opportunity to actually have a non-staggered mechanical keyboard.
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: Hakhu on Thu, 29 October 2009, 02:46:46
Quote from: lowpoly;128774
I'll keep it in mind. There are a lot of color combinations already, several colors times several languages and different physical layouts. Probably not even all of those will make it into the production configurator.


You might not even need to include "new" colors. Maybe just allow to choose two of the existing keycap colors for a "typical" duo-tone layout. (I love the look of the white/grey HHKB 2 Pro.)
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: lowpoly on Fri, 30 October 2009, 11:59:14
Quote from: Hakhu;128997
You might not even need to include "new" colors. Maybe just allow to choose two of the existing keycap colors for a "typical" duo-tone layout. (I love the look of the white/grey HHKB 2 Pro.)
That'll depend on the final logistics, I think. I have separate keycap sets already on my list for the shop.

And I finished the german translation which was surprisingly difficult. I rarely talk about keyboards in german, I guess.

Opera bugs next.
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: fuzzybyte on Fri, 30 October 2009, 15:47:27
i hope there's an option to remove the dip from left ctrl (tab) key.
also, i suppose it's not possible to have an option to also include function key row? i guess it wouldn't so 'mini' anymore, but using some space for one more key row doesn't hurt much.
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: lowpoly on Mon, 02 November 2009, 11:08:10
Quote from: fuzzybyte;129444
i hope there's an option to remove the dip from left ctrl (tab) key.
This will depend on the options the keycap supplier provides. In any case, it will not be a configurator option because different switch pcbs would be required.

Quote from: fuzzybyte;129444
also, i suppose it's not possible to have an option to also include function key row? i guess it wouldn't so 'mini' anymore, but using some space for one more key row doesn't hurt much.
This would require a new case, switch pcb, skeleton, etc. Which means $$$. So that's not very likely.

Opera works now too. Somewhen during development I overwrote the configurator source with an older version which broke the configurator for IE as well. If you tried it with IE please try again.
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: clickclack on Tue, 03 November 2009, 16:12:20
Quote from: lowpoly;129919

..... If you tried it with IE please try again.


THANKS!!!! =D
I just checked it out again, and I finally got to configure it and see what different things would look like, I love it!

I really wish you the best on this, I am excited all over again after looking at your site.

The funny thing is I never really thought about how tiny this would be until just now! I looked at some of my standard keyboards and just pictured them without the board around the main area and it is really, really small! That really does seem to be a nice size.
:)
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: fuzzybyte on Wed, 04 November 2009, 04:07:39
will the cable be detachable?
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: lowpoly on Wed, 04 November 2009, 04:57:42
Quote from: clickclack;130231
THANKS!!!! =D
I just checked it out again, and I finally got to configure it and see what different things would look like, I love it!

I really wish you the best on this, I am excited all over again after looking at your site.

The funny thing is I never really thought about how tiny this would be until just now! I looked at some of my standard keyboards and just pictured them without the board around the main area and it is really, really small! That really does seem to be a nice size.
:)

Thanks! As for size, it will still fit into the hole left in the donor G80-3000.

Quote from: fuzzybyte;130299
will the cable be detachable?

Yes.
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: lowpoly on Tue, 08 December 2009, 07:12:06
The Japanese translation doesn't progress so I decided not to wait any longer and add that later.

So here is the preview site:

http://www.guru-board.com

If you see any glaring errors please let me know.
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: chimera15 on Tue, 08 December 2009, 07:36:23
Wow, you're going to sell it!!?  Amazing!! How much? Do you know the price yet?
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: bigpook on Tue, 08 December 2009, 07:38:23
nice work. 4Q 2010? what is your pricing. I am  on the fence as to getting a HHKB for Xms. I may pass and wait for yours to ship. something in a brown cherry would be nice.
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: Hakhu on Tue, 08 December 2009, 07:56:52
So does that mean, that the preview site is now officially open to the "public"?

I've just skimmed through the site a little and so far everything looks pretty good.
I've noticed a few minor glitches, like a missing comma once and rather colloquial word I wouldn't have used in the German version, but nothing major.

There's a little burst of excitement every time you update this post. :)
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: Hakhu on Tue, 08 December 2009, 07:58:09
Quote from: webwit;140057
... would be even better if it changed without hitting the preview button), I hope you can make that a reality.


Definitely!
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: lowpoly on Tue, 08 December 2009, 09:05:53
Quote from: chimera15;140055
Wow, you're going to sell it!!?  Amazing!! How much? Do you know the price yet?
There are way too many unknown factors yet for any pricing.

Quote from: bigpook;140056
nice work. 4Q 2010? what is your pricing. I am  on the fence as to getting a HHKB for Xms. I may pass and wait for yours to ship. something in a brown cherry would be nice.
Q4 2010 is a rough estimate. However, Ms Keyboard said another small keyboard will come in the "near future" so you might at least want to wait for that.

Quote from: webwit;140057
Looking very good! Configurator still rocks (would be even better if it changed without hitting the preview button), I hope you can make that a reality.
Thanks. After hitting preview I also load the switch view and the first rotate pic. So you couldn't just click through the colors for ex.  

Quote from: Hakhu;140063
So does that mean, that the preview site is now officially open to the "public"?

I've just skimmed through the site a little and so far everything looks pretty good.
I've noticed a few minor glitches, like a missing comma once and rather colloquial word I wouldn't have used in the German version, but nothing major.
Yes, it's public now.

If you don't mind please PM me that word so I can change it.
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: itlnstln on Tue, 08 December 2009, 09:58:10
Gesundheit.
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: elbowglue on Tue, 08 December 2009, 11:22:59
This looks awesome.  Does anyone else think the alt and the swirly G button should be transposed tho? (from left to right ctrl-swirl-alt-spacebar-alt-swirl-menu-ctrl)
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: lowpoly on Tue, 08 December 2009, 11:36:19
The position next to the spacebar is the most convenient for thumb activation. And the 2nd layer cursor keys will get more use than Alt combinations. But it's easy to change: just swap the keys and change the programming.
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: rdjack21 on Tue, 08 December 2009, 11:49:27
Quote from: lowpoly;140133
The position next to the spacebar is the most convenient for thumb activation. And the 2nd layer cursor keys will get more use than Alt combinations. But it's easy to change: just swap the keys and change the programming.


The programability of this board is what is going to make me get one. Even though I would prefer Topre switches I can live with the Cherry browns.
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: Rajagra on Tue, 08 December 2009, 15:31:11
I know what I want for Christmas next year!

Small observation: In the configurator, "Switch view" - can be read as change view, which is what the area to the right of it does. Took me a while to work out it was literally a view of the switches.

I assume the 2 physical layouts on offer are ANSI & ISO
Quote

ANSI layout: 61 keys, no keys between letter keys and left shift, two keys between L and Enter, horizontal enter
ISO layout: 62 keys, one key between letter keys and left shift, three keys between L and Enter, vertical enter


Any chance of a hybrid Super-ANSI (ANSISO?) layout:
62 keys, one key between letter keys and left shift, two keys between L and Enter, horizontal enter ?
Or would that require different tooling making it too obscure to be worthwhile?
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: ak_nala on Tue, 08 December 2009, 18:10:08
Sorry if this has been asked before - is a Windows key implemented anywhere?

Reason I ask is that in order to be fully Mac compatible we need a Windows key as it automatically maps to be the absolutely essential Mac Command key.

Remapping in software is possible, but that doesn't work during the boot sequence for going into single user and the like, so something in firmware is best.
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: bhtooefr on Wed, 09 December 2009, 03:28:15
You can map anything to anything on that board, so you could implement one.

Anyway, really liking the Red Alert scheme.
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: itlnstln on Wed, 09 December 2009, 08:09:29
The Red Alert is nice.  I am digging the chocolate bottom with cream keys.  Yum.
 
 
(I haven't had breakfast this morning.)
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: lowpoly on Thu, 10 December 2009, 03:33:38
Quote from: Rajagra;140206
Small observation: In the configurator, "Switch view" - can be read as change view, which is what the area to the right of it does. Took me a while to work out it was literally a view of the switches.

Maybe I should add a help button, I didn't want 'full size' buttons in that area.

Quote from: Rajagra;140206
Any chance of a hybrid Super-ANSI (ANSISO?) layout:
62 keys, one key between letter keys and left shift, two keys between L and Enter, horizontal enter ?
Or would that require different tooling making it too obscure to be worthwhile?

I don't think that would sell in numbers? However, I wonder if ANSI and ISO can be combined on the same pcb. Would require only one pcb then and it could easily be modded.

Quote from: ak_nala;140264
Sorry if this has been asked before - is a Windows key implemented anywhere?

Reason I ask is that in order to be fully Mac compatible we need a Windows key as it automatically maps to be the absolutely essential Mac Command key.

Remapping in software is possible, but that doesn't work during the boot sequence for going into single user and the like, so something in firmware is best.

Currently I have it on the context menu key (black version). Easy to program.

Quote from: bhtooefr;140378
You can map anything to anything on that board, so you could implement one.

Anyway, really liking the Red Alert scheme.

One of my favorite color combinations too. It's supposed to be one of those 'Hot Rod' colors, I think it requires a golden base coat.

After using this 'board for some time I noticed some things:

What I like so far (beside things already mentioned):

Needs improvement:

Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: Mnemonix on Thu, 10 December 2009, 03:45:08
Maybe it's too late now, but did you consider adding a third mouse button?

The middle mouse button is frequently used on X11 for copy-and-paste actions (where the middle button does the paste part). I suspect middle button emulation could be uncomfortable on this design, requiring to press the left and right button at the same time.
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: Hakhu on Thu, 10 December 2009, 03:51:54
In the F.A.Q.s it says there will be a third mouse button in the final version.

Quote from: lowpoly;140824
  • Cherry blacks. I know most won't agree with me here but I enjoy the smooth action ATM.

I agree. I had been using Cherry Blacks for some time and they are much better than they are made out to be. They've just got a bad reputation it seems.
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: Mnemonix on Thu, 10 December 2009, 03:56:33
Cool, thanks! Sorry for the noise.
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: lowpoly on Thu, 10 December 2009, 05:00:20
The grease worked perfectly. I attached some sound samples. Don't expect Ripster quality on these. I pressed the spacebar a few times, then some regular keys, then the space bar again. In reality everything is much quieter than the sound samples suggest.

The levelling mechanism rattled. This is the one I relocated so maybe this was the reason. Anyway, the noise is gone which is a double win because I use the spacebar for backspace as well (fn + spacebar).
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: Rajagra on Thu, 10 December 2009, 05:17:35
That's quite a difference in sound. Who would've thought humble grease could change the sound of things so drastically? First buckling springs, now space bar mechanisms. I may keep some on my desk for ad-hoc improvements. :smile:
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: nanu on Thu, 10 December 2009, 06:37:03
Quote from: Rajagra;140846
That's quite a difference in sound. Who would've thought humble grease could change the sound of things so drastically? First buckling springs, now space bar mechanisms. I may keep some on my desk for ad-hoc improvements. :smile:


Rattling should not be overly apparent if the stabilizing slots are sized to the diameter of the stabilizing wire.  The taller/looser the slot the more rattle you get.

Grease on the leveling slots dampens or rids this rattle you get also when you merely graze the spacebar (or if typing keys, such as M, at a sufficiently low angle).  But now I'm bothered to re-lube the stabilizers after deep cleanings, which is also why I've delayed cleanings. :yawn:

So this makes me wonder if stabilizers could be made of some dampening rubber-like material that doesn't need to be greased to remain elastic or not dry out, yet still function crisply. :tape:
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: lowpoly on Thu, 10 December 2009, 07:30:58
Quote from: rdjack21;140142
The programability of this board is what is going to make me get one. Even though I would prefer Topre switches I can live with the Cherry browns.

Here is a short video of my proof-of-concept switch. Ignore the background sound (typing and voices).

Long tactile curve, nearly silent, activates somewhere in the middle of the travel. Unfortunately it needs expensive parts. I won't go into details right now:


The clicking you hear is the pencil hitting the keycap. There is no sound from the switch unless bottomed out which is sort of dampened right now.

Edit: It also doesn't use rubber.
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: timw4mail on Thu, 10 December 2009, 07:34:10
Quote from: lowpoly;140881
Here is a short video of my proof-of-concept switch. Ignore the background sound (typing and voices).

Long tactile curve, nearly silent, activates somewhere in the middle of the travel. Unfortunately it needs expensive parts. I won't go into details right now:


The clicking you hear is the pencil hitting the keycap. There is no sound from the switch unless bottomed out which is sort of dampened right now.

Is it based on any switch?
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: lowpoly on Thu, 10 December 2009, 07:38:08
Quote from: nanu;140867
Rattling should not be overly apparent if the stabilizing slots are sized to the diameter of the stabilizing wire.  The taller/looser the slot the more rattle you get.

I think the parts are lose to avoid binding. pcb placement may add a little tension then which could also dampen the sound. And maybe I removed this tension when relocating the mechanism. Pure speculation of course. I tried one of my G80-1800s and it rattles as well but less than the Mini did.

Quote from: nanu;140867
So this makes me wonder if stabilizers could be made of some dampening rubber-like material that doesn't need to be greased to remain elastic or not dry out, yet still function crisply. :tape:

That would be nice.
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: lowpoly on Thu, 10 December 2009, 07:40:04
Quote from: timw4mail;140882
Is it based on any switch?


Based? No.
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: bhtooefr on Thu, 10 December 2009, 08:20:37
Quote from: lowpoly;140824
I don't think that would sell in numbers? However, I wonder if ANSI and ISO can be combined on the same pcb. Would require only one pcb then and it could easily be modded.


They can be, although you'll need your keys to be molded to have a Cherry MX-shaped stabilizer on any keys that are different in the layout, because you can't center the switch under left shift or enter.

All Model Ms use the same membrane and case for a certain time period, with the differences being keycaps and positioning of the switches.
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: lowpoly on Thu, 10 December 2009, 09:14:17
Quote from: bhtooefr;140895
They can be, although you'll need your keys to be molded to have a Cherry MX-shaped stabilizer on any keys that are different in the layout, because you can't center the switch under left shift or enter.

A new key mold is probably more expensive than another pcb. I thought of two sets of holes for ex. for the left shift key. One set with switch and two stabilizer assemblies and one set with two switches.

I just pulled the left shift key and I don't think it will work. That would be 25 drill holes over the area of two switches. Needs CAD to figure out.
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: rdjack21 on Thu, 10 December 2009, 10:21:05
Quote from: lowpoly;140881
Here is a short video of my proof-of-concept switch. Ignore the background sound (typing and voices).

Long tactile curve, nearly silent, activates somewhere in the middle of the travel. Unfortunately it needs expensive parts. I won't go into details right now:



The clicking you hear is the pencil hitting the keycap. There is no sound from the switch unless bottomed out which is sort of dampened right now.

Edit: It also doesn't use rubber.


Hey I'm willing to pay for a Topre so if you keep in the same ball park price wise and the feel is there I'll try it. It also looks like the activation force is going to be low as well which is another plus from my perspective. Now that you have one key working it is time to make some more and see how it feels to actually type on your new switch. If that works out build some more and send them or sell them to those willing to cough up some cash and see what we think about it. If nothing else Topre has proven that there is a market for expensive keyboards if you market it correctly and it is a quality product. From my perspective key feel is a priority and if that means I have to pay for it I will. What ever you do don't compromise on the feel to save cost even if that means the eventual keyboard that will use this switch will be expensive because their are those of us that will pay your price if it is good. But it is true that this will regulate your new switch to a small segment of the market but that small segment can be profitable.

Oh forgot to mention if you made the mounting pins such that they could just be poped into the same location as say a Cherry MX switch then you really only have to work on the switch itself because you already have a board to put them in.
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: lowpoly on Thu, 10 December 2009, 11:34:22
It has about 6 millimeters right now. Just a result of the parts I had at hand. There is too much travel at the start, with 4mm it would be perfect. I would like to have more at the end of the travel but I don't think it will work with this principle.

The biggest limiting factor for more key travel is probably the absolute height of the middle row (should be something like 30mm).
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: jedidove on Sun, 13 December 2009, 01:47:12
Can someone fill me in on the "stepped" control key, or dipped, or whatever you call it. I feel like I'm missing out on some niche style or something. What is the purpose or advantage of it, it just looks annoying :/
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: Rajagra on Sun, 13 December 2009, 02:14:26
Quote from: jedidove;141933
Can someone fill me in on the "stepped" control key, or dipped, or whatever you call it. I feel like I'm missing out on some niche style or something. What is the purpose or advantage of it, it just looks annoying :/

I suspect it's to help place your fingers on the home keys without looking.
It isn't a new idea:
(http://www.pcguide.com/ref/kb/layout/z_011261xt.jpg) (http://www.pcguide.com/ref/kb/layout/std_XT83.htm)
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: Xuan on Sun, 13 December 2009, 16:38:05
I thought it was to prevent accidental presses in case of CapsLock, or in the case of the XT F because they might not had proper stabilizers for big keys, or something alike (?)
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: sixty on Sun, 13 December 2009, 18:08:03
Quote from: Xuan;142080
I thought it was to prevent accidental presses in case of CapsLock, or in the case of the XT F because they might not had proper stabilizers for big keys, or something alike (?)


I'm assuming the original design was to save costs on some boards.. I'm not sure though. If you make a key shaped like that you won't need any stabilizers because pushing it off center won't happen.
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: jedidove on Sun, 13 December 2009, 21:14:14
Still not sure I get it....

Anyway, whatever the purpose, why is it on this board? I could see it being moot on a rarely used key like capslock, but on control, it seems like a pretty big detriment.
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: bhtooefr on Sun, 13 December 2009, 21:35:44
Probably because the keycap manufacturer's keycap for that location is stepped?

Also, it could be remapped to Caps Lock.
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: lowpoly on Mon, 14 December 2009, 06:36:27
Whether the production version will have a stepped Ctrl/Capslock key will depend on the keycap manufacturer. Cherry caps have that step.
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: lowpoly on Mon, 14 December 2009, 11:14:58
Wouldn't that be the wrong row?
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: PRISONER 24601 on Tue, 15 December 2009, 03:10:36
Ok so I've been reading this thread for two days now, bit by bit.

This is amazing. Lowpoly, hats off to you. The design of this keyboard is impeccable. It's perfect, pretty much. It's amazing watching this thing evolve throughout the last, what, year or so?

I wish that I could do something for the project (other than buying a few of them, obviously) that might actually aid in the development. Well, it looks like you're pretty much done with development and you need to find someone for manufacturing/tooling? Do you need investors? Sales reps? Buzz generators?

I think this product needs a big viral-style marketing effort at the least. IIRC  a lot of niche items start like that. Are you planning on showing the item at trade shows? The computer "enthusiast" market has been pretty stale lately, and the small form factor + simple layout might convince some distributers/retailers to help you "launch" the product.

No matter the price, I think quality matters. I wouldn't rush anything out or skimp on any 'luxury' aspect of this board. The very first run of these babies should be totally bulletproof. I believe that the #1 killer of enthusiast-targeted products is ANY public perception of low-quality. You get a couple people complaining about sticky keys, paint chipping, transpostion errors, compatibility issues, or anything like that... The whole community starts to bandwagon. To reiterate what I just said- I don't care if the product retails at $300, as long as it's a quality product, 100% reliable and solid as a rock, that "enthusiast" market will bite.

Anyway, I'm preaching to the choir here. You guys on the team will do marketing right, i'm just ranting and raving.

Awesome, awesome idea.
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: lal on Tue, 15 December 2009, 05:18:40
Quote from: lowpoly;140053
http://www.guru-board.com


Would be nice if the configurator provided tooltips for color names.  And make that 360 deg view mouse controllable.  Can't wait for it to start shipping.
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: ch_123 on Tue, 15 December 2009, 05:32:55
Ah, another thing to add to my 'to buy' list.
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: itlnstln on Tue, 15 December 2009, 08:08:38
Hey, Lal, welcome back.  Long time, no see.
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: jedidove on Tue, 15 December 2009, 10:22:41
Quote from: lowpoly;142164
Whether the production version will have a stepped Ctrl/Capslock key will depend on the keycap manufacturer. Cherry caps have that step.


Ah, got it. Makes sense. I'll put my vote in for no step now ;)
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: JBert on Tue, 15 December 2009, 13:48:50
Aagh, I want it already. I guess the price would mean a lot to me though...

Also, no preview with a vertical enter? :-/
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: lal on Wed, 16 December 2009, 06:36:48
Thanks itlnstln.  Being very busy.  Good to see GH still going strong :)
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: ch_123 on Wed, 16 December 2009, 11:43:04
Quote from: ripster;142129
Just to be clear I'm sure the IBM engineers just followed tradition.


I always thought it was a combination of having a common key-size (and streching it out as required) and forcing the user to press dead centre to prevent inconsistencies on older and less precise switches.
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: keyb_gr on Wed, 16 December 2009, 14:58:27
Quote from: jedidove;142591
I'll put my vote in for no step now ;)
My vote would go to stepped... that area makes a nice finger rest. ;)

lowpoly, I'm afraid the website layout still needs some work (http://stephan.win31.de/guru-board.png)...
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: itlnstln on Wed, 16 December 2009, 15:19:33
I never even noticed the difference before.  My Cherry is stepped and the Filco not, but I have no problems pressing the Caps Lock key on either.  I didn't even know if any of my 'boards where stepped or not until I went to look at them.  That Alt key would jack me up, though.
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: bhtooefr on Wed, 16 December 2009, 17:13:28
For that matter, my ThinkPad has a stepped caps lock, and that's a laptop.
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: Xuan on Wed, 16 December 2009, 23:31:15
Quote from: keyb_gr;143064
My vote would go to stepped... that area makes a nice finger rest. ;)

lowpoly, I'm afraid the website layout still needs some work (http://stephan.win31.de/guru-board.png)...


Tradition says keyboard (http://pckeyboards.stores.yahoo.net/keyboards.html) manufacturers (https://www.cvtinc.com/products/keyboards/menu.htm) must have bad websites (http://pfuca-store.stores.yahoo.net/).

Stop breaking the rule!
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: msiegel on Thu, 17 December 2009, 00:41:44
Quote from: Xuan;143150
Tradition says keyboard (http://pckeyboards.stores.yahoo.net/keyboards.html) manufacturers (https://www.cvtinc.com/products/keyboards/menu.htm) must have bad websites (http://pfuca-store.stores.yahoo.net/).

Stop breaking the rule!


their product photos are smaller than our avatars! XD
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: lowpoly on Thu, 17 December 2009, 05:07:29
Thanks for the comments.

Quote from: PRISONER 24601;142514
I wish that I could do something for the project (other than buying a few of them, obviously) that might actually aid in the development. Well, it looks like you're pretty much done with development and you need to find someone for manufacturing/tooling? Do you need investors? Sales reps? Buzz generators?

Investors is next. There still is a lot of development left, tooling, etc.

If you want to contribute try the Geekey controller. I'd rather use that than develop my own for several reasons.

Quote from: PRISONER 24601;142514
I think this product needs a big viral-style marketing effort at the least. IIRC  a lot of niche items start like that. Are you planning on showing the item at trade shows? The computer "enthusiast" market has been pretty stale lately, and the small form factor + simple layout might convince some distributers/retailers to help you "launch" the product.

I'm going to send my press release out during the next days. I still wait for Japanese before contacting English language sites.

Quote from: PRISONER 24601;142514
No matter the price, I think quality matters. I wouldn't rush anything out or skimp on any 'luxury' aspect of this board. The very first run of these babies should be totally bulletproof. I believe that the #1 killer of enthusiast-targeted products is ANY public perception of low-quality. You get a couple people complaining about sticky keys, paint chipping, transpostion errors, compatibility issues, or anything like that... The whole community starts to bandwagon. To reiterate what I just said- I don't care if the product retails at $300, as long as it's a quality product, 100% reliable and solid as a rock, that "enthusiast" market will bite.

While I want the price to be lower than that I agree otherwise.

Quote from: lal;142531
Would be nice if the configurator provided tooltips for color names.  And make that 360 deg view mouse controllable.  Can't wait for it to start shipping.

I put those on my list. The final 360 degree view will probably be in Flash as the current Javascript solution is at its limit. I'll need alpha compositing for frames and I don't think Javascript is ready for that.

And welcome back. :-)

Quote from: JBert;142642
Also, no preview with a vertical enter? :-/

No, it's just a preview. The next keycap variant will require a major rewrite of the 360 degree preview (see above).

Quote from: keyb_gr;143064
lowpoly, I'm afraid the website layout still needs some work (http://stephan.win31.de/guru-board.png)...

Damned. I'll look into it. Thanks.

Quote from: Xuan;143150
Tradition says keyboard (http://pckeyboards.stores.yahoo.net/keyboards.html) manufacturers (https://www.cvtinc.com/products/keyboards/menu.htm) must have bad websites (http://pfuca-store.stores.yahoo.net/).

Stop breaking the rule!

LOL
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: lowpoly on Thu, 17 December 2009, 06:25:44
Quote from: keyb_gr;143064
lowpoly, I'm afraid the website layout still needs some work (http://stephan.win31.de/guru-board.png)...

I installed SeaMonkey (Windows) and everything looks fine, zoomed or not. Do you have "Edit/Preferences/Appearance/Fonts/Allow documents to use other fonts" unchecked?
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: keyb_gr on Thu, 17 December 2009, 10:47:03
Quote from: lowpoly;143196
I installed SeaMonkey (Windows) and everything looks fine, zoomed or not. Do you have "Edit/Preferences/Appearance/Fonts/Allow documents to use other fonts" unchecked?
Try with a standard font size of 18 and a minimum of 16... Probably the latter is what's breaking it. Normally it's even worse on my parents' notebook (1680x1050 17" screen and the eyes aren't what they used to be). BTW, switching to text-only zoom in either FF or SM would also break the design, I think (that was the standard way up to SM 1.1.x and FF 1.5 or 2.0 or thereabouts).

You cannot rely on fonts and font sizes on the web - if in doubt the user always has the last word. That usually bugs the graphical folks who'd like to fix everything in px to match their images. See it as an opportunity to provide human readable text for everyone (by default) instead - scaling is a pretty unique property of the web. It might take a bit more thought (and more individual images) to achieve the necessary flexibility but that will absolutely pay off. I haven't looked into the details, but as a suggestion, I'd stick to widths in em with some min-width in px to avoid trouble with images and max-width in % or thereabouts to avoid issues at smaller resolutions. Heights should only be specified where absolutely necessary.
On a practical note, if a DIV based design gets an awful mess and everything else fails, you can try resorting to a single-level blind table.

If you want to see a "WTF were they thinking?!" kind of example, try this (http://www.microtelecom.it/perseus/). Seems to have been created with some kind of WYSIWYG editor (I guess it was a "we need a website quick and cheap" type of problem). The absolute positioning in px will ensure that it breaks as soon as your minimum font size is more than their suggested 11px, giving a big unreadable mess at 16px. Maybe we can be glad that they didn't spec 9px instead, after all that's still readable reasonably well. ;-/
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: lowpoly on Thu, 17 December 2009, 12:04:52
Ah, it's the minimum font size. Basically you're overriding my css design with this (and that of many, many other sites).

Quote
That usually bugs the graphical folks who'd like to fix everything in px to match their images.
True. The minimum font size is going to ruin the design one way or the other (think huge empty spaces). And cutting the background graphics into several parts will make the page load (even) slower. Browser zoom doesn't have these problems and is already widely supported.

I probably could fix the 'regular' pages but it would require a complete rewrite of the configurator layout. Not possible at the moment. :-(

Out of curiosity I tried a couple of German car configurators and 4 out of 5 were broken too. Not trying to hide behind that but... Oh wait, I am.

I get your point though and will keep it in mind for the next major update.

Quote
my parents' notebook
Why not adjust the operating system's dpi scaling? That would affect all applications.
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: keyb_gr on Thu, 17 December 2009, 12:57:07
Quote from: lowpoly;143308
Ah, it's the minimum font size. Basically you're overriding my css design with this (and that of many, many other sites).
Well, what doesn't one do to have a human readable font size without having to adjust zoom all the time. (Not to mention that full page zoom !=100% tends to make things a little laggy with graphics, at least in FF/SM. Minimum font sizes are not recalculated either, so a broken design only becomes an enlarged broken design... smells like a bug. And so I submitted one. (https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=535639))
If specified size were anywhere near 1em to begin with, it wouldn't be a problem. I don't see why I as a used should be expected to adapt to web sites rather than vice versa.
Quote
Why not adjust the operating system's dpi scaling? That would affect all applications.
System fonts are already at 144 dpi on that machine. (Guess what - large system fonts are a good way of breaking a few applications.)

BTW: Upon first start of SM2 there, the whole UI was found to be zoomed up to RIDICULOUSLY large, like on a VGA screen. Ugly, too. Turns out SM2 reads the system dpi setting and (unlike 1.1.x) seemingly kicks in some Vista feature that's supposed to enlarge controls and other stuff on hi-res screens. Good idea, but worthless if it's the only app behaving like that. A quick trip to about:config and setting layout.css.dpi to 120 restored the normal look.
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: lowpoly on Thu, 17 December 2009, 13:43:06
Nice controversial discussion on the em vs. px topic:

http://www.mezzoblue.com/archives/2008/10/07/zoom/

Quote
large system fonts are a good way of breaking a few applications

I used dpi scaling for several years and I have seen a few broken applications. A lot less though than the broken sites I have seen during a few minutes of 18/16 browsing. YMMV, of course.
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: bhtooefr on Thu, 17 December 2009, 14:22:42
Windows Presentation Framework uses vector UI elements wherever possible, and in Vista/Win7 (especially Win7, I hear, although I haven't tested it yet,) pre-WPF apps are forcibly scaled (in more than just font size) to match.
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: keyb_gr on Thu, 17 December 2009, 16:35:45
Quote from: lowpoly;143339
Nice controversial discussion on the em vs. px topic:

http://www.mezzoblue.com/archives/2008/10/07/zoom/
Some opinions there reminded me of how fragile progress (real progress) actually is and that it takes continuous work not to be thrown back and cannot be taken for granted at all. (The influence of creationists in the States makes a brilliant example.)
Full page zoom was a crutch conceived in reaction to the number of web pages that continued to use px-fixed layouts. If the same people who created those interpret this as a "go on" sign, well if that isn't perversion I don't know what is. :mad2: In no way should it be taken as an invitation to let standards slip.
(We know where that's gotten us in terms of keyboards.)

I'd think that the topic of fluid layouts was discussed to death in dciwam years ago, back when the group still had an edge.
Quote
I used dpi scaling for several years and I have seen a few broken applications. A lot less though than the broken sites I have seen during a few minutes of 18/16 browsing. YMMV, of course.
Now you can probably imagine how it is to be surfing with 18/16 for the last 6 years or so... And yes, fortunately no real important application ever really broke for me at 120 dpi... there was some tax software years ago that did, and it was a bit of a pity about some free oscilloscope software.
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: bsvP585hUO2Y6 on Thu, 17 December 2009, 17:32:45
Hmm, if this board will be available for purchase sometime, I should better add my 2¢ now.

I don't like staggered caps lock keys. When mapping them to control - which probably isn't an uncommon thing on a board explicitly sold to be programmable - I find the staggering rather inconvenient. This was one of the reasons I did not hesitate to grab my Marquardt milspec (http://geekhack.org/showthread.php?t=8016) board.

For the second cent, I hate mini-B USB plugs. They are much less reliable than standard sized B plugs. I constantly have to resolder or replace them on my iRiver, cardreader and 2.5" HD enclosures. This is a reason I keep dismissing the HHKB despite its non-staggered caps/control.

Apart from those points, it seems like the perfect keyboard to me.
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: keyb_gr on Sat, 19 December 2009, 10:18:49
I'd agree that a big USB connector would not hurt... with things like that, bigger means more solid indeed (headphone jacks are similar). Haven't had any issues with mini-B ones myself though. Can you get cables suited for a keyboard in terms of thickness and stiffness that terminate in a type B at all?

Seemingly IBM did not mind having a staggered Ctrl on the Model F (and really deep on top of that, making the Cherry ones seem harmless)... OKOK, that one's got a wacky layout, but anyway.

I wonder whether Cherry might still have dye sublimation lettering facilities. Their current lasered G80s (speaking for light grey ones) have better readability than some others, but absolutely speaking the contrast stinks - the difference to a vintage dye sublimated or two-shot lettered key set is so large it makes you cry.
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: bsvP585hUO2Y6 on Sat, 19 December 2009, 10:41:42
Quote from: keyb_gr;143690
Can you get cables suited for a keyboard in terms of thickness and stiffness that terminate in a type B at all?

Well, the A <-> B cable that shipped with my "Fujitsu-Siemens KBPC USB D" is nice enough. It is comparable to the thickness/stiffness of the PS/2 cords on my Cherries, while still being thicker/stiffer than most A <-> B cables I have.
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: JBert on Sat, 19 December 2009, 13:00:45
It just needs to be thick enough not to break down the inner strands when you happen to twist it. My brother often has to throw away headsets because one of those .3 mm wires in the cable breaks and hence stops it from worken when you twist it just a little.
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: lowpoly on Sat, 19 December 2009, 17:03:48
Quote from: bsvP585hUO2Y6;143373
Hmm, if this board will be available for purchase sometime, I should better add my 2¢ now.

I don't like staggered caps lock keys. When mapping them to control - which probably isn't an uncommon thing on a board explicitly sold to be programmable - I find the staggering rather inconvenient. This was one of the reasons I did not hesitate to grab my Marquardt milspec (http://geekhack.org/showthread.php?t=8016) board.

For the second cent, I hate mini-B USB plugs. They are much less reliable than standard sized B plugs. I constantly have to resolder or replace them on my iRiver, cardreader and 2.5" HD enclosures. This is a reason I keep dismissing the HHKB despite its non-staggered caps/control.

Apart from those points, it seems like the perfect keyboard to me.


I'd prefer non-staggered too. It will depend on the keycap manufacturer though.

I think the regular USB plug may be too high. But maybe not. Are there any examples where these are used with many connect/disconnects? I have them on a couple of devices but they are all stationary.
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: bsvP585hUO2Y6 on Sat, 19 December 2009, 18:10:18
Quote from: lowpoly;143778
Are there any examples where these are used with many connect/disconnects?

3.5" harddisk enclosures often have the non-mini connector.

I've just read about a dozen USB socket datasheets in the hope to find some objective numbers for my experience. Interestingly, the mating cycles - if they were specified at all - only varied with the thickness of the gold plating. When comparing B and mini-B with the same plating of the same manufacturer, the values were all identical...

Quote from: ripster;143786
The other way to look at I've never heard anyone complain about the HHKB2 one not working.


That's only because people are too scared to haul their precious cup rubber around :-P.
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: keyb_gr on Sat, 19 December 2009, 20:17:32
Quote from: bsvP585hUO2Y6;143797
I've just read about a dozen USB socket datasheets in the hope to find some objective numbers for my experience. Interestingly, the mating cycles - if they were specified at all - only varied with the thickness of the gold plating. When comparing B and mini-B with the same plating of the same manufacturer, the values were all identical...

Makes sense then. As you said, it's the solder joints that go bad first, so the actual real-life problems have more to do with strain relief or lack thereof, plus soldering quality (which can be pretty shoddy these days, lead-free solder hasn't made that any better).

Reminds me of the Molex power connector I once resoldered on a 5-1/4" floppy drive (not so very long ago actually). It was held on the PCB by a metal brace with nice big solder joints on both sides. Nonetheless at least one of these plus most of the connector pins' joints were cracked and the connector was quite loose, no wonder the drive was so intermittent. It had had the problem ever since I'd gotten it used many moons ago. Guess they should have used something with screws.
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: lowpoly on Mon, 21 December 2009, 06:08:09
Miniguru on golem.de (German IT news portal):

http://www.golem.de/0912/71999.html (site in German)

On kbdmania:

http://www.kbdmania.net/xe/1125395 (site in Korean)

Japanese is almost finished, then I'm going to contact the English speaking news sites.
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: Mnemonix on Mon, 21 December 2009, 06:29:30
Quote from: lowpoly;144129
Miniguru on golem.de (German IT news portal):


Hey, congratulations! :)

But as always: many stupid comments given by stupid people there...
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: lowpoly on Tue, 22 December 2009, 16:42:01
I think I'm going to participate in any other discussions should they ever happen. Even if it will end in tears. I don't want to become another Andy.
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: lowpoly on Tue, 22 December 2009, 17:19:50
No, still talking of the golem.de discussion where some would look at the picture and start posting.
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: bigpook on Tue, 22 December 2009, 19:04:03
While I can't read German or Korean ( I don't know if the text is positive or negative ) the one clear win is that a lot more eyeballs got to see what it looks like. I would think that would create a buzz.
Those pictures are gorgeous btw. I think it is a winning design, screw the haters and the clueless.
nice post webwit.
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: Mnemonix on Wed, 23 December 2009, 04:18:58
Quote from: bigpook;144606
While I can't read German or Korean ( I don't know if the text is positive or negative )

The German text is neutral and mentions most of the features (fewer keys than on other keyboards, no caps lock, second layer for missing keys, programmable, trackpoint, various colors to choose from, etc.), but it fails to mention that this is a mechanical keyboard. Some of the discussion threads are really just pointless rants by absolutely clueless people and are best ignored. Not uncommon on that site: there are pointless rants on any topic. Could be worse (heise.de... :wink:).
I hope this is only a German phenomenon.

I couldn't read the Korean text either.
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: Karl on Wed, 23 December 2009, 05:54:44
Does the Controller GETT TKC-8000-USB-PS/2 really cost € 50 ?

I found another programmable one for less than $ 12 :
SK5101 - Low Cost USB/PS2 Programmable FlexMatrix Industrial Keyboard Encoder
http://www.sprintek.com/products/SK5100.aspx
http://www.sprintek.com/order/OrderICs.aspx

The Software for Programming the Chip is free:
http://www.sprintek.com/support/Downloads.aspx

Could the Chip SK5101 be interesting for this Project?
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: Rajagra on Wed, 23 December 2009, 06:52:36
Quote from: Karl;144705
Could the Chip SK5101 be interesting for this Project?


Looks interesting to me. Seems more user-friendly to use than others I've seen. Only thing I couldn't find is how it handles rollover issues.
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: Karl on Wed, 23 December 2009, 07:26:03
The SK5102 has AB rotary encoder mapped keys, but not the SK5101. How the SK5101 handles rollover issues, I did not found in the Datasheet:
http://www.sprintek.com/documents/datasheets/DS0002%20SK5100%20Datasheet.pdf
Quote
Each key found pressed is debounced for a period of 28 ms. Once the key is verified, the corresponding
key code(s) are loaded into the transmit buffer.

In any scanned contact switch matrix, whenever three keys
defining a rectangle on the switch matrix are pressed at the
same time, a fourth key positioned on the fourth corner of the
rectangle is sensed as being pressed. This is known as the
“ghost” or “phantom” key problem.

Although the problem cannot be totally eliminated without
using external hardware, there are methods to neutralize its
negative effects for most practical applications. Keys that are
intended to be used in combinations should be placed in the
same row or column of the matrix, whenever possible. Shift
keys (Shift, Alt, Ctrl, Window) should not reside in the same
row (or column) as any other keys. The SK5100/SK5101 has
built-in mechanisms to detect and reject “ghost” keys.
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: meltie on Wed, 23 December 2009, 08:17:27
I just wanted to say that I think you designed a great keyboard, no matter what those *beep* *beep* *beep* on Golem say. Whenever I read the comments on that site I want to scream, because it seems that only people with horrible behaviour and no clue about the subject seem to comment there.

It is even greater you are going to mass produce that fine board, and with my favorite cherry blues! If I can afford it in any way, I will buy one for sure.
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: lal on Wed, 23 December 2009, 11:57:49
Quote from: lowpoly;144558
I think I'm going to participate in any other discussions should they ever happen. Even if it will end in tears. I don't want to become another Andy.


Andy who?  Anyway, just ignore those dumb adolescents.  No point in trying to argue with them.  There are a few comments that showed real interest and there are certainly many more that didn't bother to post.  Be sure to get mentioned on heise.de when it starts shipping.  I think they'd be happy to help another high quality product made in Germany getting started ;)

What about the third mouse button?  A variant without trackpoint?  Bluetooth?!?
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: lowpoly on Sun, 27 December 2009, 10:02:09
Thanks, for putting things into perspective. I wasn't going to fight the haters, just maybe correct some obvious misunderstandings.

Quote from: webwit;144576
You'll have some interesting marketing issues. I've seen it when I showed quality keyboards to people. I've seen it on market places where users can comment. I've seen it with the μTRON, which main presence on google is links to a swarm of gadgets logs copying each other where it was the topic of the day for ridicule, based on a picture. While it is in reality a really smart design from the ground up. Your keyboard will be a) different, b) relatively expensive, so it will be attacked by the clueless who will not keep silent because of that handicap. It will be considered a snob gadget for stupid people with too much money. "What were they thinking." and "I can buy a Logicrap 15000 with all kinds of extra keys, for less!" etc. etc. If you're going to battle that, it will be tiresome and an energy drain. I'd try to be ahead of it. Doing a HHKB would be difficult, you don't have big funds and you are not in Japan. Still think you should give a prototype to Stallman or someone like that (I picked him because he's a HHKB user), then let him say some nice things about it, then post that to Slashdot, reddit, etc., and any hacker who was previously thinking about a Das Keyboard would suddenly want the keyboard real programmers use. Or forget about the western market and give some prototypes to Asian trendsetters like 박영환 and Sandy. In any case it would be nice to have something smart like that happen to set the mood. Then the other users will do the correcting, like Apple fanboys! Wheeee!
Some very good points, thanks.

Quote from: Mnemonix;144689
..., but it fails to mention that this is a mechanical keyboard.
:embarassed: Thanks for pointing that out because my press release fails to mention that either. The features page on the preview site doesn't list it as well. So, I'm the one to blame here. I'm going to change that ASAP.

Quote from: Karl;144705
Does the Controller GETT TKC-8000-USB-PS/2 really cost € 50 ?

I found another programmable one for less than $ 12 :
SK5101 - Low Cost USB/PS2 Programmable FlexMatrix Industrial Keyboard Encoder
http://www.sprintek.com/products/SK5100.aspx
http://www.sprintek.com/order/OrderICs.aspx

The Software for Programming the Chip is free:
http://www.sprintek.com/support/Downloads.aspx

Could the Chip SK5101 be interesting for this Project?
The Gett controller is > €50 but this is a working controller. Low numbers for industrial use which explains the price. The chip it uses is from Codemercs for about the same price as the SK5101. But I'd rather have something like Geekey.

Quote from: lal;144777
Andy who?
Andy, the former Das community manager who ignored almost every discussion here.
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: lowpoly on Mon, 28 December 2009, 16:42:32
Keyboard megathread on somethingawful.com:

http://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3189022&userid=0&perpage=40&pagenumber=1 (http://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3189022&userid=0&perpage=40&pagenumber=1)

Page 7, but the thread should be interesting anyway.
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: vils on Sat, 02 January 2010, 15:36:45
When this comes out, I'll buy two. And I'll rebuild my Facit to house one of them.
Good work, keep it up.
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: lowpoly on Mon, 11 January 2010, 04:40:05
Quote from: vils;147348
And I'll rebuild my Facit to house one of them.
I'd like to see that. :-)

Miniguru on Yanko Design:

http://www.yankodesign.com
http://www.yankodesign.com/2010/01/11/looks-like-a-normal-keyboard-doesnt-it/

And mentioned in the keyboard megathread on SomethingAwful. I'm not going to list every single referrer here but this thread may be of general interest:

http://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3189022&pagenumber=7
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: Rajagra on Mon, 11 January 2010, 21:30:12
Quote from: lowpoly;149974
Miniguru on Yanko Design:

http://www.yankodesign.com
http://www.yankodesign.com/2010/01/11/looks-like-a-normal-keyboard-doesnt-it/


The ignorant comments there made my blood boil. I hope you handle them better than I do lol. :lol:
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: watduzhkstand4 on Mon, 11 January 2010, 21:50:45
Quote from: Rajagra;150203
The ignorant comments there made my blood boil. I hope you handle them better than I do lol. :lol:


I had to let it out on somebody there lol
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: msiegel on Tue, 12 January 2010, 00:20:31
it's an understated and very functional design, which won't impress one's unsophisticated neighbors.

reminds me of what steve jobs said about the iphone:
"We want to reinvent the phone. What's the killer app? The killer app is making calls!"
XD

cheers lowpoly, you have designed the ariel atom (http://www.arielatom.com/) of keyboards :)
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: itlnstln on Tue, 12 January 2010, 07:57:38
I can't wait for this 'board to come out.  When it does, there will be some Chocolate Creme lovin' on my desktop.
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: spolia optima on Wed, 13 January 2010, 01:45:16
Will this board be easy to clean, and serivce if necessary? I ask because this product would fare well when combined with a long-term warrantee.

Business professionals in particular would be attracted to a free 'test drive'. There are tons of professionals out there who make 100K+ salaries, but type on a junky keyboard all day. This isn't the best example, but remember the Orek vacuum cleaners? They've always had the reputation of being a very high-priced vaccum, but people tend to keep them after they've experienced the test. Keyboards, like vacuums, are everyday machines that we assume are mostly identical. It's hard to sell a quality vacuum without first demonstrating its value to the consumer.

Webwit posted a very realistic scenario for a product like this, and much of it can't be avoided. Responses to the public reaction should be planned ahead of time, as they often are.

My own view is that their should be a top-of-the-line version targeted to the very wealthy. The top-end model should be made with the absolute best materials available (new, high-tech plastics etc); it should also come with a lifetime warrantee and a bevy of overpriced accessories/options. Fact is, there are a lot of people sitting at $12,000 rosewood desks, in $3000 ergonomic chairs, typing on $20 rubber dome keyboards. Convince them that your product will increase their productivity, send them a free demonstration model with matching wristrest and, i don't know, italian leather spacebar or something- you could sell one to half the business owners in the country.
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: lowpoly on Wed, 13 January 2010, 03:04:27
Engadget:

http://www.engadget.com/2010/01/12/guruboards-miniguru-keyboard-aims-to-keep-you-on-the-home-row/

:-)
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: chimera15 on Wed, 13 January 2010, 05:26:01
Quote from: lowpoly;150462
Engadget:

http://www.engadget.com/2010/01/12/guruboards-miniguru-keyboard-aims-to-keep-you-on-the-home-row/

:-)


Awesome Lowpoly, look at the comments section, wow. lol
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: roadblock2thesun on Wed, 13 January 2010, 06:07:35
Just saw the engadget post (before checking GH for the morning) and my heart skipped. Congratulations Lowpoly, can't wait for these to roll off the line!
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: itlnstln on Wed, 13 January 2010, 07:00:13
Congrats, Sofa King.  We may even see a few new members because of it.
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: didjamatic on Wed, 13 January 2010, 07:07:31
Commented on engadget
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: quadibloc on Wed, 13 January 2010, 10:15:04
Quote from: Karl;144705
Does the Controller GETT TKC-8000-USB-PS/2 really cost € 50 ?

I found another programmable one for less than $ 12 :
SK5101 - Low Cost USB/PS2 Programmable FlexMatrix Industrial Keyboard Encoder
http://www.sprintek.com/products/SK5100.aspx
http://www.sprintek.com/order/OrderICs.aspx

The Software for Programming the Chip is free:
http://www.sprintek.com/support/Downloads.aspx


Just what I could use for my eventual ambition of doing a project.

I'm certainly happy to hear that the HHKB is going to get some competition.

My surface impression, though, is that the design does have a flaw. At first I didn't see a good way to fix one of the "flaws" I saw - the lack of cursor keys - but on reflection that's just a valid design decision. The other flaw - which seems to me to be a real flaw - does seem to be easily correctable, though.

If you abolish the Windows Shift keys, so that you have paired Fn keys to get at the extra key layer, then if you try to put Windows Shift in the other layer, how do you shift anything with it?

(I'm probably misunderstanding things here, and the Windows Menu key was only used in the mock-up so that the two Fn keys could look alike, even if I didn't see a specific mention of that, though.)

Since the Windows Menu key is left in the design, though, there's an obvious fix for that: make it a Windows Shift key instead. (Give it the code for the left one instead of the right one, even though it's on the right.) Putting Windows Menu in the second layer is not a problem, since that's not a shift key. (The fact that lots of keyboards these days only have one Windows Shift key means that you should be able to get away with just one without any software incompatibilities.)

Leaving out the cursor keys, unlike the HHKB Lite, is a design decision, and with two shift keys for the second layer, this shouldn't be a big deal - so the win of having full-sized keys and no funny changes to the standard main typing area layout is worth it.

Someone could also argue with moving the Alt keys, but that does help to avoid your Fn keys from being confused with Windows Shift keys, and it makes sense, too, that they should be in the higher-priority position that Alt has versus Windows Shift, since the second layer will be needed.

Quote from: wellington1869;97493
Btw lowpo - if your keyboard's firmware/layout is that easily re-programmable, that has got to be THE most major selling point and feature of this keyboard (aside from its killer looks).


Seconded. And the ability to program keys in by scancode, not just by name, is essential as well - because being able to shuffle around the second layer to taste is nice, but the ability to get at keys not in the basic set is even more important. So don't drop that feature in attempting to make it more usable by the general consumer!

EDIT: I see by the web site that in addition to scan code FF for the Fn key, you are planning to have a third layer. One important feature this brings to mind (which you've probably already thought of, of course) is this: instead of only being able to define a key as "2nd layer shift" or "3rd layer shift", it would be very handy to be able to define keys as "Layer shift" and "Use 2nd layer for layer shift", "Use 3rd layer for layer shift". That way, you can use the two swirl keys to switch to a selected additional layer, and use a key on the higher layer to toggle between what that layer is, without having to dedicate more layer shift keys on the first layer.
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: lowpoly on Wed, 13 January 2010, 15:15:10
Thanks to anyone who wrote comments on the blogs. I loved reading them, especially on Yanko Design. ;-)

Quote from: spolia optima;150454
Will this board be easy to clean, and serivce if necessary? I ask because this product would fare well when combined with a long-term warrantee.

I've cleaned a lot of keyboards. The pcb/switch area is always the hardest. It usually does not look 'like new' afterwards.

Quote from: spolia optima;150454
Business professionals in particular would be attracted to a free 'test drive'. There are tons of professionals out there who make 100K+ salaries, but type on a junky keyboard all day. This isn't the best example, but remember the Orek vacuum cleaners? They've always had the reputation of being a very high-priced vaccum, but people tend to keep them after they've experienced the test. Keyboards, like vacuums, are everyday machines that we assume are mostly identical. It's hard to sell a quality vacuum without first demonstrating its value to the consumer.

Webwit posted a very realistic scenario for a product like this, and much of it can't be avoided. Responses to the public reaction should be planned ahead of time, as they often are.

My own view is that their should be a top-of-the-line version targeted to the very wealthy. The top-end model should be made with the absolute best materials available (new, high-tech plastics etc); it should also come with a lifetime warrantee and a bevy of overpriced accessories/options. Fact is, there are a lot of people sitting at $12,000 rosewood desks, in $3000 ergonomic chairs, typing on $20 rubber dome keyboards. Convince them that your product will increase their productivity, send them a free demonstration model with matching wristrest and, i don't know, italian leather spacebar or something- you could sell one to half the business owners in the country.

Not sure about the free test drive but you are absolutely right about keyboards not being available as luxury gadgets. Welly mentioned this as well. But this is not the right keyboard for the target group you describe. Most of them only write a couple of emails per day. And they use Excel.

Quote from: quadibloc;150505
Just what I could use for my eventual ambition of doing a project.

I'm certainly happy to hear that the HHKB is going to get some competition.

My surface impression, though, is that the design does have a flaw. At first I didn't see a good way to fix one of the "flaws" I saw - the lack of cursor keys - but on reflection that's just a valid design decision. The other flaw - which seems to me to be a real flaw - does seem to be easily correctable, though.

If you abolish the Windows Shift keys, so that you have paired Fn keys to get at the extra key layer, then if you try to put Windows Shift in the other layer, how do you shift anything with it?

(I'm probably misunderstanding things here, and the Windows Menu key was only used in the mock-up so that the two Fn keys could look alike, even if I didn't see a specific mention of that, though.)

Since the Windows Menu key is left in the design, though, there's an obvious fix for that: make it a Windows Shift key instead. (Give it the code for the left one instead of the right one, even though it's on the right.) Putting Windows Menu in the second layer is not a problem, since that's not a shift key. (The fact that lots of keyboards these days only have one Windows Shift key means that you should be able to get away with just one without any software incompatibilities.)

Leaving out the cursor keys, unlike the HHKB Lite, is a design decision, and with two shift keys for the second layer, this shouldn't be a big deal - so the win of having full-sized keys and no funny changes to the standard main typing area layout is worth it.

Someone could also argue with moving the Alt keys, but that does help to avoid your Fn keys from being confused with Windows Shift keys, and it makes sense, too, that they should be in the higher-priority position that Alt has versus Windows Shift, since the second layer will be needed.



Seconded. And the ability to program keys in by scancode, not just by name, is essential as well - because being able to shuffle around the second layer to taste is nice, but the ability to get at keys not in the basic set is even more important. So don't drop that feature in attempting to make it more usable by the general consumer!

EDIT: I see by the web site that in addition to scan code FF for the Fn key, you are planning to have a third layer. One important feature this brings to mind (which you've probably already thought of, of course) is this: instead of only being able to define a key as "2nd layer shift" or "3rd layer shift", it would be very handy to be able to define keys as "Layer shift" and "Use 2nd layer for layer shift", "Use 3rd layer for layer shift". That way, you can use the two swirl keys to switch to a selected additional layer, and use a key on the higher layer to toggle between what that layer is, without having to dedicate more layer shift keys on the first layer.

The black keycaps design prototype uses the Windows menu key as a standard Windows key because it was left after I made the swirl keys. I think the Windows menu key plays in the same league as Capslock and Pause, even Microsoft dropped it lately, IIRC.

Good suggestions on layer switching.
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: jedidove on Wed, 13 January 2010, 22:20:54
Gizmodo :)

http://gizmodo.com/5447553/miniguru-keyboard-makes-typing-quicker-by-keeping-your-fingers-on-the-home-row

I was hoping the day would come that I'd see it on engadget and gizmodo. Props!

I'm noticing a lot of *****ing about colemak and dvorak. Perhaps just to show that you care, you could put an option on the configurator for dvorak and colemak. Even if its not a feasible option when you go into production (keycap manufacturing issues etc.) at least it would shut people up for now and would show that this isn't "just another keyboard".
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: spolia optima on Fri, 15 January 2010, 10:40:34
Quote from: lowpoly;150625
snip


Ah. Well, when I was talking about servicing the board, I had the model M in mind. While it shouldn't be a primary concern of yours :D (it's really just a minor detail), I think that quality mechanical things (cars, keyboards, etc) are twice as admirable when they can be assembled and disassembled elegantly. If I were to design a keyboard, I would make sure that you could strip it down to the PCB with as few motions as possible. It's a small detail, but I think it's important. I wouldn't sacrifice much of the cosmetics for it though lol.
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: quadibloc on Fri, 15 January 2010, 13:45:05
One point. The keyboard will not require a special driver, it will be a USB keyboard... and it is to have N-key rollover. That is, of course, a contradiction: under the first two conditions, the best that is possible is the full six-key rollover provided by the standard USB keyboard format.

Program by USB, then connect by PS/2, would be nice, but would probably require a special custom controller the cost of which would be prohibitive.
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: lal on Fri, 15 January 2010, 13:50:29
I repeat my question: what about Bluetooth?  I understand that it's probably not trivial to find a place for batteries and stuff.  But this would be a killer feature, for me at least.  We live in 2010, Bluetooth is pretty much standard in portable computers, and yet we have to carry a cable with our guru keyboards.  Think of HTPC users that want to remote control their media centers.  The miniguru demands to be freed from the chains of USB cables!

Maybe in a later version? :)
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: bhtooefr on Fri, 15 January 2010, 15:12:44
Again requiring a special custom controller, but you could have it such that it comes up as a custom device, and if it doesn't detect a driver, it switches modes to USB HID.
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: quadibloc on Sun, 17 January 2010, 10:45:26
Quote from: bhtooefr;151167
Again requiring a special custom controller, but you could have it such that it comes up as a custom device, and if it doesn't detect a driver, it switches modes to USB HID.


To be technical about this, I don't think that a custom controller in a keyboard would get involved in trying to detect a driver on the computer. Rather, the keyboard would just come up in the standard USB HID, and the driver software on the computer, if present, would send a special command to the keyboard telling it explicitly to switch over to the custom mode that it was equipped to handle. (If acknowledgement of that command was not forthcoming, the assumption on the part of the driver would be that only an ordinary USB keyboard was connected.)
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: lowpoly on Tue, 19 January 2010, 05:17:01
Quote from: jedidove;150725
I'm noticing a lot of *****ing about colemak and dvorak. Perhaps just to show that you care, you could put an option on the configurator for dvorak and colemak. Even if its not a feasible option when you go into production (keycap manufacturing issues etc.) at least it would shut people up for now and would show that this isn't "just another keyboard".

I think Colemak and Dvorak keycap sets are highly unlikely, so I wouldn't want to put those in right now. Anybody seen Colemak/Dvorak keycap sets for Cherry MX?

Quote from: spolia optima;151109
Ah. Well, when I was talking about servicing the board, I had the model M in mind. While it shouldn't be a primary concern of yours :D (it's really just a minor detail), I think that quality mechanical things (cars, keyboards, etc) are twice as admirable when they can be assembled and disassembled elegantly. If I were to design a keyboard, I would make sure that you could strip it down to the PCB with as few motions as possible. It's a small detail, but I think it's important. I wouldn't sacrifice much of the cosmetics for it though lol.

I want the final version to have a plastic endo-skeleton. Everything attaches to this. So you could exchange the case alone, for ex.

Quote from: quadibloc;151154
One point. The keyboard will not require a special driver, it will be a USB keyboard... and it is to have N-key rollover. That is, of course, a contradiction: under the first two conditions, the best that is possible is the full six-key rollover provided by the standard USB keyboard format.

Program by USB, then connect by PS/2, would be nice, but would probably require a special custom controller the cost of which would be prohibitive.

I want the controller to have USB/PS2 autodetect. Which reminds me of the current state of the Geekey project. :-(

Quote from: lal;151156
I repeat my question: what about Bluetooth?  I understand that it's probably not trivial to find a place for batteries and stuff.  But this would be a killer feature, for me at least.  We live in 2010, Bluetooth is pretty much standard in portable computers, and yet we have to carry a cable with our guru keyboards.  Think of HTPC users that want to remote control their media centers.  The miniguru demands to be freed from the chains of USB cables!

Maybe in a later version? :)

I guess that wouldn't work with a metal case? The USB hub? Would be a different product. But I see the potential, I'll keep it in mind.
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: itlnstln on Fri, 12 February 2010, 13:19:35
Word is definitely getting out.
Title: grats, you're expected later this year!
Post by: GenEric35 on Sun, 21 February 2010, 16:33:35
no turning back now LowPoly! you have been published in Computer Power User, March 2010 edition, page 9.
as far as i know, this is the "best" computer magazine out there and looks like they like the miniguru

http://www.computerpoweruser.com/DigitalEditions/Archive.aspx?guid=95950EB6290248BAA347FE85E3A4AA25

(http://img63.imageshack.us/img63/5806/miniguruoncpumarch2010.jpg)

grats, you're expected later this year!
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: JulienC on Sun, 21 February 2010, 23:28:05
Congratulations ! I hope everything works out well for producing that awesome keyboard.

(Reading the Smartfish Ergomotion description, I can only laugh thinking about the frustration one could experience when the keyboard suddenly relocates the most frequently used keys).
________
HEALTH-FORUMS.ORG (http://www.health-forums.org/)
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: lowpoly on Mon, 22 February 2010, 10:04:18
Cool, thanks for posting this!
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: sudowork on Sun, 04 April 2010, 03:19:04
::Drools:: I want one! I know not everything has been finalized, but is there any word on price (even a rough estimate)? I was just about to bite the bullet and buy a HHKB, but this just seems so much better!
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: skcheng on Sun, 25 April 2010, 12:16:07
I didn't read every post on this thread, but what ended up being the most popular color/switch combination??   Just curious??   I would like cherry blue/brown or possibly reds.  White DS keys.  Trackpoint I could live with or without.  Matching suede or leather wrist rest??   Custom case??  

The configurator on the guru-board.com website is cool.  But I can't see how it would be possible at all to build each and every one to custom order??   The configurator is SOOOO COOOOL!!   I kind of like the Milk n Grass.  So organic.   And the Red Alert matches my office colors.
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: waperboy on Tue, 27 April 2010, 03:28:28
No. You did not make this puppy yourself!? Hats off, remarkable job! Beautiful piece of hardware, it just oozes 'you want me'. Good luck with production, I definitely want one.
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: ironman31 on Tue, 08 June 2010, 15:11:07
This keyboard suddenly took my eyes off of getting a topre. I think I can wait for this to come out :)
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: itlnstln on Tue, 08 June 2010, 15:18:40
I haven't seen lowpoly in awhile.  I wonder what's going on with this project.
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: J888www on Tue, 08 June 2010, 15:56:19
Was just wondering how it would look with transparent key caps, enabling view of the coloured key stems.
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: Rajagra on Tue, 08 June 2010, 16:06:10
Quote from: J888www;191012
Was just wondering how it would look with transparent key caps, enabling view of the coloured key stems.


Cherry reds under transparent keys. Drooooool.
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: itlnstln on Wed, 09 June 2010, 09:46:50
Transparent plastic looks so 80s.  Webwit's pic is a good example.
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: ricercar on Wed, 09 June 2010, 17:09:34
Miley was maybe 15 in 2008? Riiip....
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: Rajagra on Wed, 09 June 2010, 17:18:56
Britney Spears phenomenon. By the time she was legit and showing off the goods nobody was interested any more.
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: clickclack on Thu, 10 June 2010, 02:25:52
Quote from: itlnstln;190996
I haven't seen lowpoly in awhile.  I wonder what's going on with this project.

I hope all is well, and I am just as excited for the mini guru as ever =D

Quote from: J888www;191012
Was just wondering how it would look with transparent key caps, enabling view of the coloured key stems.

Bad ass, the clear, ice, and colored translucent keys that I have made are really interesting. I have a pic of the ice one with a blue cherry stem in the other thread.
Quote from: Rajagra;191014
Cherry reds under transparent keys. Drooooool.

no doubt!

Quote from: webwit;191016

Hey I have/had that keyboard in a really odd translucent blue.

Quote from: ripster;191017
I prefer naked women through shower curtains.

FTW!

Quote from: itlnstln;191248
Transparent plastic looks so 80s.  Webwit's pic is a good example.

It depends how how it's designed I suppose. Dated designs look... well... dated.
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: ricercar on Thu, 10 June 2010, 17:10:43
You prefer naked 15-year olds in the shower, not seen, but instead as described to you by your MOM?!?!? This is quite the Freudean turn..
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: lowpoly on Fri, 18 June 2010, 06:04:48
It's not going to happen. :-(

Quote from the blog:

Quote
Miniguru Cancelled

Production of the Miniguru has been cancelled. :-(

I don’t want to list the specific reasons here, let’s just say that mainly we lost faith in being able to sell the initial production run.

Thanks to all who sent messages of support and my apologies to those how have been waiting for this keyboard.

Let me add to that last sentence that I'm sorry I couldn't answer to any PMs or contact form mails during the last weeks because this was looming but a final decision had not been made.
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: ironman31 on Fri, 18 June 2010, 06:58:19
:(
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: quadibloc on Fri, 18 June 2010, 07:59:19
Given that the MiniGuru was going to be programmable, it's not clear to me that the keyboard on another thread that is similar in appearance would be direct competition.

I do think their "new concept" keyboard, if they choose a decent layout for it, has the potential of being a popular product category. Tenkeyless keyboards and laptop-like keyboards are popular, while the HHKB is a niche product, and so something which gets additional compactness by overlapping the function keys with the other extra keys of the tenkeyless design could be an HHKB for the non-otaku rest of us.

I can't tell you that your decision is wrong, though. Instead, even without less-expensive competition from KBC-China, with only the expensive HHKB to worry about, it might well have been the case that the MiniGuru would have been enough of a niche product to have only limited sales. Given that, though, this additional factor might well have been the straw breaking the camel's back.
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: salcan on Fri, 18 June 2010, 08:13:32
Ah, that's too bad. Was definitely looking forward to it.

Not sure if this is privileged information, but what was the initial run going to be? What's the minimum you need to make an order like this?
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: Rajagra on Fri, 18 June 2010, 08:18:06
The other product was nowhere near a match for the Miniguru, so I hope that didn't tip the balance. Sorry all the hard work didn't come to fruition, but you can be proud of your ideas and the progress you made.
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: muchadoaboutnothing on Fri, 18 June 2010, 08:51:14
That's a shame. I thought the design was extremely cool.

How exactly was faith lost in the saleability of the Miniguru? Have you considered taking the design to another company?
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: itlnstln on Fri, 18 June 2010, 09:36:29
And I was so hoping for a Chocolate Cream keyboard.
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: noctua on Fri, 18 June 2010, 09:42:10
We can help you! Canceled != Capitulated.. no?
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: chimera15 on Fri, 18 June 2010, 10:34:21
You really gave me a lot of inspiration and hope Lowpoly.  It's a real letdown for me.  I had high hopes that producing a keyboard, especially a compact in the west these days was still possible.

Have you thought about doing stuff like taking pre-orders or interest assessments at different price points? Was it a business model failure or some other type of loss of faith?
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: Buckling_Summer on Fri, 18 June 2010, 10:53:13
I think low sales expectation was the reason.

This product needs a good business plan from a professional team and an aggressive marketing campaign everywhere.

Some other keyboards (like the Kinesis ergonomic etc) sell more?
No I dont think so.. This is supposed to be a more closed niche market than MiniGuru's niche.
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: wellington1869 on Fri, 18 June 2010, 11:32:08
really sorry to hear this, i was definitely among the true believers of this keyboard. I still think its fantastic and as someone said here, a full-time professional marketing team was probably needed to make the push to market. Keyboards, much like sneakers, are as much about image and style as anything else, unfortunately. The miniguru had style in spades.
But yea, it was going to be a small niche market no matter what, i guess.
Still, a tragedy because it was a mouth-wateringly beautiful keyboard.

You made a valiant attempt, lowpo. I hope there were other benefits from the experience that will enrich your life going forward.
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: phoenix on Fri, 18 June 2010, 12:28:34
Really sorry to hear that, lowpoly. How did you come to the conclusion that you wouldn't be able to sell the initial production run? I once recommended kickstarter.com so that people can pledge with real money by a deadline. If it's not too late, can we still try that?

I'm sure this has not been an easy decision for you. When you are ready to tell us more, you will let us know. Until then, I won't ask anything again about the mini-guru.
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: cfishy on Fri, 18 June 2010, 13:11:56
Sorry, Lowpoly, I know this project is your baby.  

what is this "other" keyboard you guys speak of? http://www.kbc-china.com/ seems broken...

For what it's worth, if you really want a keyboard like miniguru, you can make one yourself. It's just gonna cost a lot. But then again, seeing how people throw away money for iPads, maybe not.
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: hoggy on Fri, 18 June 2010, 13:12:17
Sorry to hear it.  A lot of us were really looking forward to it, but I wouldn't want you to go bankrupt.


I loved it and I'm now in mourning.
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: Superfluous Parentheses on Fri, 18 June 2010, 14:20:53
That sucks. For you, and for us. It's still a really interesting board and I'd have loved to try it.
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: bigpook on Fri, 18 June 2010, 14:45:17
no doubt that is bad news. That would have been a sweet keyboard.
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: keyb_gr on Fri, 18 June 2010, 19:08:56
Too bad, really :( It would have been too cool if this kind of enthusiast project had taken off.
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: Rajagra on Fri, 18 June 2010, 19:17:15
It's not uncommon for prospective backers to take out, and hold on to, patents before abandoning a project. That (or a similar claim on rights) could be a possible obstacle to continuing with alternative support.
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: muchadoaboutnothing on Fri, 18 June 2010, 19:28:32
Quote from: Rajagra;194475
It's not uncommon for prospective backers to take out, and hold on to, patents before abandoning a project. That (or a similar claim on rights) could be a possible obstacle to continuing with alternative support.

I hope that isn't the case.

As I said in another thread here, on another board I frequent, 5 people (non including myself) had planned on ordering one. I really hope that the Miniguru gets another backer.
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: Rajagra on Fri, 18 June 2010, 19:36:56
I would have bought one, probably two. With something as good as this you buy a spare (if not a lifetime supply.)
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: chimera15 on Fri, 18 June 2010, 20:30:16
I should look back through the threads, but you used a 3d printing service for the plastics/caps right? Do they have a deal where we can buy them individiually, and you get some profit from it?  I know a lot of 3d service printing sites have done that? We could then build our own perhaps?

If you're not going to sell it, full,  maybe you could either show us how to make it exactly as in what to buy, or assemble the parts yourself as a complete kit like the kbc people are planning to do, and somehow get some profit from that?  If you don't have any construction cost/sweatshop assmembly labor, it's just parts right?  This has worked for the model building/hobbiest industry for years.  Perhaps this would be a better business model for you, since most of this boards followers are keyboard hobbiests.  That might give you enough money, and show the interest level to take it up to a next level.


 Maybe at least you could start a new thread/post where you give a summary of how to build one, as I know it's spread through this thread, but in concise links, and a step by step instruction manual.
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: texteur on Sat, 19 June 2010, 00:20:20
Aaaaargh. So sad.

You know what: two Months ago, I was about to buy a new Filco, and I said to myself "no, wait a little bit more; Miniguru will be available this autumn, and with it you'll forget all the other keyboards you ever bought".

I missed EliteKeyboards' Majestouch Tenkeyless Tactile Touch Otaku White because I was waiting for the birth of this gorgeous baby...
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: reisio on Sat, 19 June 2010, 01:36:11
Couldn't you just count up the number of people here who wanted one (or even have them sign up on a list), and invest only enough to cover that many boards?  Profit is profit, and a successful run on a smaller scale could potentially inspire more investment, no?
Title: =(
Post by: clickclack on Sat, 19 June 2010, 04:38:50
Sorry to hear that lowpoly.
Please understand that we appreciated your design and efforts and think it would have a been a top notch offering.
It raised the bar without even coming to market, and I think that is something truly impressive to say the least!
=)

Question now is-  What do I spend all my saved money on?
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: J888www on Sat, 19 June 2010, 05:59:02
There are just too many configurations to be practical for production. The only way possible is :-
Quote from: chimera15;194507
We could then build our own perhaps?....
assemble the parts yourself as a complete kit....


With limited options to three maybe four MX switches (including Red) already soldered onto the PCB, different coloured cases, key caps etcetera. It would be a simpler process of just picking and boxing the different required components.
People who grew-up with kit-form toys would more than likely enjoy the task, the self gratifying pleasure of achievement in constructing their own kbd.

Or produce limited configurations without purchaser option to configure.

Do not despair, reaching this far has already given us much Hope, the basis of our living. You have not let us down.

Maybe rather than cancel this project, it can be taken onto a different route, think Robert The Bruce and the Spider.
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: chimera15 on Sat, 19 June 2010, 06:21:48
Quote from: J888www;194629
There are just too many configurations to be practical for production. The only way possible is :-

With limited options to three maybe four MX switches (including Red) already soldered onto the PCB, different coloured cases, key caps etcetera. It would be a simpler process of just picking and boxing the different required components.
People who grew-up with kit-form toys would more than likely enjoy the task, the self gratifying pleasure of achievement in constructing their own kbd.

Or produce limited configurations without purchaser option to configure.

Do not despair, reaching this far has already given us much Hope, the basis of our living. You have not let us down.

Maybe rather than cancel this project, it can be taken onto a different route, think Robert The Bruce and the Spider.


The guy who killed Braveheart?
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: TexasFlood on Sat, 19 June 2010, 08:33:32
Quote from: chimera15;194632
The guy who killed Braveheart?

Sir William Wallace? What are the odds he'd come up in this forum, lol.  He's actually ancestor of mine, :smile:.
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: chimera15 on Sat, 19 June 2010, 08:38:15
Quote from: TexasFlood;194657
Sir William Wallace? What are the odds he'd come up in this forum, lol.  He's actually ancestor of mine, :smile:.

How is he your ancestor, I thought they killed his girl or somethin. lol  Oh he had that affair with that french princess/queen or something? roflol  Mel Gibson history. roflol
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: JBert on Sat, 19 June 2010, 09:43:31
Quote from: chimera15;194507
i should look back through the threads, but you used a 3d printing service for the plastics/caps right? Do they have a deal where we can buy them individiually, and you get some profit from it?  I know a lot of 3d service printing sites have done that? We could then build our own perhaps?

If you're not going to sell it, full,  maybe you could either show us how to make it exactly as in what to buy, or assemble the parts yourself as a complete kit like the kbc people are planning to do, and somehow get some profit from that?  If you don't have any construction cost/sweatshop assmembly labor, it's just parts right?  This has worked for the model building/hobbiest industry for years.  Perhaps this would be a better business model for you, since most of this boards followers are keyboard hobbiests.  That might give you enough money, and show the interest level to take it up to a next level.


 Maybe at least you could start a new thread/post where you give a summary of how to build one, as i know it's spread through this thread, but in concise links, and a step by step instruction manual.
THIS
Having no production anymore is grave news, but being able to build one yourself could at least help.
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: TexasFlood on Sat, 19 June 2010, 10:10:27
Quote from: chimera15;194659
How is he your ancestor, I thought they killed his girl or somethin. lol  Oh he had that affair with that french princess/queen or something? roflol  Mel Gibson history. roflol

Well, supposedly he had a daughter and it's through her.

It's on my mom's side where the family tree is not as well documented so it may or may not be true.  But it's part of the family verbal history.  My mom told me over a decade before the movie came out.  At the time I sort of blew it off and said "year that's nice mom."

I didn't see Braveheart in the theater and hadn't make the connection.  Then I'm watching the movie in a hotel room on the road and realize it's the same story she told me so many years ago, that she thought was so interesting and I didn't really pay attention to.  So I called her on my cell phone and admitted she was right, it was interesting enough to base a movie on.  Of course then she saw the movie and didn't like it because, well, it's a movie, and about excitement & drama, more than historical accuracy.  She wanted to see more like a documentary.  Anyway.
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: cfishy on Sat, 19 June 2010, 13:42:16
Oh, don't pile more work on Lowpoly; let him grieve.

I think most, if not all of how to make a keyboard is documented on this site. I made my own rough prototype with nothing more than laser cutter, acrylic, key switches, a commercial controller and soldering.

for casing, 3d printing is very expensive. you can probably CNC the casing because it's mostly flat. I'm not hung up on looks, so i'd just make a box out of acrylics screwed together.

of course, hand wiring is tedious and error prone. it's best to use a PCB board. keyboard PCB is too dense to be home made. PCB prototyping service isn't too bad actually. a single piece that size would be $500-$900 depending on the options. i think ordering 5 pcs would drop unit price to less than $200 per board. plus $25 - $100 controller. That's just my rough estimate.

switches, stablizers are available parts that would be about $1 a piece. that's about a couple of hundred. cheapest caps are just salvage ones, ripped from a commercial keyboard. if you want special caps, that would be expensive but can be ordered.

so if you make a single board with a PCB, you are looking at at least seven hundred dollars worth of stuff. probably more. About a top end iPad? I think a good keyboard is worth way more than an iPad. of course there's also hours and hours of labor, e.g. PCB design. any mistake you make would be costly. if you count that, having a one of a kind keyboard made would run a couple of thousand, and much more if you want it pretty.

if you hand wire like i did, you don't have to pay for the PCB and that'd probably end up being a few hundred plus lots of work.

If anyone is still interested, I can write up a demo. it's been a while since i made my last keyboard, which i used heavily everyday at work for 8 months. but I don't know exact detail of how to wire the pointing sticks.. no idea what the part number is. i got a few here i can try though. it has four connectors and i'm not sure how to wire them, and what driver to use. Anyone?
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: bhtooefr on Sat, 19 June 2010, 16:12:16
Go for PCB-mount switches, specify what keyboard to harvest the TrackPoints from, and sell bare PCBs. Use a DIP-packaged microcontroller, and go through-hole on everything, for ease of assembly.

You could probably sell 25 that way, and not lose money.
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: J888www on Sat, 19 June 2010, 17:08:39
Quote from: chimera15;194632
The guy who killed Braveheart?
Nope,
Robert 1st. called The Bruce was the King of Scotland and won the Battle of Bannockburn to gain Scottish Independence from the English, albeit for a short time.
 While hiding in a derelict building during a stormy day, he saw a spider spinning its' web but the wind and rain kept destroying it. The spider's relentlessness in repeated attempts to rebuild taught Robert The Bruce an important lesson, "If you don't at first succeed, try and try again", eventually succeeded at Bannockburn.
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: cfishy on Sat, 19 June 2010, 17:54:04
Quote from: bhtooefr;194763
Go for PCB-mount switches, specify what keyboard to harvest the TrackPoints from, and sell bare PCBs. Use a DIP-packaged microcontroller, and go through-hole on everything, for ease of assembly.

You could probably sell 25 that way, and not lose money.
Where is the through hole microcontroller? I'm not aware of any open source two layer keyboard controller solutions for popular microcontrollers.

BTW, if you want diodes.. (most people insist on n-key rollover even though they don't need it) I'm not even sure if there's enough room on the PCB for through hole diodes for each switch. Cherry catalog has switches with diodes built-in but i never seen a place to order it. might have to be a special batch from them, and that won't be cheap, either.

How do you know there are 25 buyers? At what price and does it include labor and operation overhead? (say, if you develop the controller logic from scrach.)

As Lowpoly stated, the problem is not making the keyboard, but finding enough buyers to break even. I think it'd break even manuf if there are, say, 40-50 people willing to pre-order at $500 per finished board. That's as-is, no returns. That's probably easier than finding 25 people who are willing to solder 200 contacts and create a casing.

If Steve Jobs produces this same keyboard and call it "Magic" it'd probably easily sell like hot cakes for cheap.
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: bhtooefr on Sat, 19 June 2010, 19:18:48
So what if there aren't any open source solutions? Last I checked, there were people on this forum actively developing open source keyboard controllers.

There's gonna be some space between the switches, you could probably get diodes in there.

And, by "bare PCB," I don't mean one stuffed with switches, but not in a case.

I mean, a PCB. That's it. You stuff it. You bring what you want. You want diodes? Get switches with diodes. Don't want diodes? Don't get switches with diodes. You just need to get a board to harvest the switches from.
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: cfishy on Sat, 19 June 2010, 20:22:27
The open source development has stalled, it seems. commercial chips are mostly tiny SMD components. i know of three dual layer solutions, one is tiny SMD component (industry standard), one is a sizable board from xkeys, very big PCB with quite a few large components and hard to fit in a keyboard you can see from my picture of Frankenstein keyboard. the German one that Lowpoly plan to use, I have no idea.

there may very well be a way to fit diodes within the already messy single layer scheme. for two layer there's definitely room. and that' 4 soldering points per key, adding up to over 300 total. Not sure if there are 25 people who are willing to do that.

I'm a software developer, and I'm learning Eagle stuff. But i'm nowhere near competent to design such a board. If anyone volunteer, than maybe we can setup one of that kickstart.com thing and see how it goes.
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: chimera15 on Sat, 19 June 2010, 22:52:20
Quote from: cfishy;194819
The open source development has stalled, it seems. commercial chips are mostly tiny SMD components. i know of three dual layer solutions, one is tiny SMD component (industry standard), one is a sizable board from xkeys, very big PCB with quite a few large components and hard to fit in a keyboard you can see from my picture of Frankenstein keyboard. the German one that Lowpoly plan to use, I have no idea.

there may very well be a way to fit diodes within the already messy single layer scheme. for two layer there's definitely room. and that' 4 soldering points per key, adding up to over 300 total. Not sure if there are 25 people who are willing to do that.

I'm a software developer, and I'm learning Eagle stuff. But i'm nowhere near competent to design such a board. If anyone volunteer, than maybe we can setup one of that kickstart.com thing and see how it goes.


Dmw is walking me through his controller right now,  I don't think it's stalled.

I've made pcb's on a small scale with pcb kits before.  I just need raw pcb that's large enough to make my/lowpoly's board from...and then the matrix pattern. I was hoping I could find some on ebay, which should be cheap to build a prototype with, which should cut the cost way down.


http://cgi.ebay.com/PCB-Etchant-Kit-4-Blank-PCBs-5100-/390119196066?cmd=ViewItem&pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item5ad4ea85a2
 (http://cgi.ebay.com/PCB-Etchant-Kit-4-Blank-PCBs-5100-/390119196066?cmd=ViewItem&pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item5ad4ea85a2)
It might be possible even that kit could work, I just need to wire them together at crossovers.

  The real problem for me is going to be the case/holding plate for switches/keys.
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: cfishy on Sat, 19 June 2010, 23:10:48
I don't suppose that particular firmware is dual layers. I could be wrong.
It's always good to see people making custom boards from scratch. Look forward to see your results.

I tried PCB etching with PCB in a Box, and it's hard to etch thin lines as required by one sided board, or double sided. Not to mention the precise drilling. I concluded that it might cost less to have a fab house make one. I even thought about setting up CNC to drill the holes. That's 3 holes per switch, two sizes. if you buy PCB mount switches, it'd be 5 holes per switch.

I don't think the case is as much a headache. i used one with no case for 9 months! If you are not picky about looks, just cut some acrylic and weld together.
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: cfishy on Sat, 19 June 2010, 23:18:22
oh by the way, the square holes are not needed for PCB mounted switches, but the PCB may bend so you have to remedy that. I used laser cut acrylics for those square hole layer, it was not too hard. and they hold the switches snug by friction. Also, you can just re-use a piece from an existing cherry switch keyboard. They are usually metal.
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: chimera15 on Sun, 20 June 2010, 00:47:07
Quote from: cfishy;194851
I don't suppose that particular firmware is dual layers. I could be wrong.
It's always good to see people making custom boards from scratch. Look forward to see your results.

I tried PCB etching with PCB in a Box, and it's hard to etch thin lines as required by one sided board, or double sided. Not to mention the precise drilling. I concluded that it might cost less to have a fab house make one. I even thought about setting up CNC to drill the holes. That's 3 holes per switch, two sizes. if you buy PCB mount switches, it'd be 5 holes per switch.

I don't think the case is as much a headache. i used one with no case for 9 months! If you are not picky about looks, just cut some acrylic and weld together.

I guess I have a slight advantage since laying out the circuitry/pcb wiring is basically like drawing/painting a picture.  I have a lot of experience as an artist, and I took an etching/printing class in college as well.  It's basically the same process as doing an etching, so I'm pretty confident I can get some nice straight lines.   One way on this complex of a board might be to use an airbrush and just create an airbrush mask.  Then you just have to spray a board with a protective coating, and dunk it into the acid bath, and you can create a factory to make them.


I do have a drill press as well that I should be able to use for this.

Do cherry's not use plates like alps boards? I need to tear apart my scorpius m10 to see how it works.  I might even end up using it as a donor board since I don't want to buy overpriced cherry mx's from a parts dealer.
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: cfishy on Sun, 20 June 2010, 02:56:10
Quote from: chimera15;194885

Do cherry's not use plates like alps boards? I need to tear apart my scorpius m10 to see how it works.  I might even end up using it as a donor board since I don't want to buy overpriced cherry mx's from a parts dealer.


Face plates are manufactured by keyboard makers to switch's spec sheet. There's no standard that I know of.
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: cfishy on Sun, 20 June 2010, 03:00:38
BTW I looked up Kickstarter.com, it says project creators must have a US based bank account and address. I don't know if Lowpoly, based in Germany, have them. Interesting site though.
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: iMav on Sun, 20 June 2010, 04:09:24
Serious bummer!  Lowpoly, I'm sad to see that this 'board won't make it to market.  I definitely would have purchased.
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: wellington1869 on Sun, 20 June 2010, 10:57:08
Quote from: J888www;194775
Nope,
Robert 1st. called The Bruce was the King of Scotland and won the Battle of Bannockburn to gain Scottish Independence from the English, albeit for a short time.
 While hiding in a derelict building during a stormy day, he saw a spider spinning its' web but the wind and rain kept destroying it. The spider's relentlessness in repeated attempts to rebuild taught Robert The Bruce an important lesson, "If you don't at first succeed, try and try again", eventually succeeded at Bannockburn.


i appreciate the occasional learned historical analogy amid the ranting and raving on this forum.
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: lowpoly on Mon, 21 June 2010, 03:44:41
Thanks for finding the right words to help me get over this.

Quote from: cfishy;194729
but I don't know exact detail of how to wire the pointing sticks.. no idea what the part number is. i got a few here i can try though. it has four connectors and i'm not sure how to wire them, and what driver to use. Anyone?

The ones I have seen were all ps/2 so the 4 wires are gnd,vcc,clock,data. It should be possible to connect the pointing stick to a Teensy (for ex.). There are some projects/libraries at avr-freaks.com that read ps/2 devices from an AVR. A single Teensy 2.0 could be all that is needed but you may run into timing issues. 16 ports for the matrix (8x8) and 2 for the pointing stick is all that is needed.

Quote from: someone
DIY kit

A DIY kit would not be easy if the current design should be kept. Hand wiring is not an option then because there's no room for a mounting plate. So the body has to support the pcb, secure the controller pcb, support the pointing stick pcb and provide the mouse button mechanics. Could probably be done as a single plastic part but it would be complex. Right now, I don't see this happening.

If the original design is not important, cfishy's acrylic plate is a very good alternative.
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: chimera15 on Mon, 21 June 2010, 06:33:08
Quote from: lowpoly;195146
Thanks for finding the right words to help me get over this.



The ones I have seen were all ps/2 so the 4 wires are gnd,vcc,clock,data. It should be possible to connect the pointing stick to a Teensy (for ex.). There are some projects/libraries at avr-freaks.com that read ps/2 devices from an AVR. A single Teensy 2.0 could be all that is needed but you may run into timing issues. 16 ports for the matrix (8x8) and 2 for the pointing stick is all that is needed.



A DIY kit would not be easy if the current design should be kept. Hand wiring is not an option then because there's no room for a mounting plate. So the body has to support the pcb, secure the controller pcb, support the pointing stick pcb and provide the mouse button mechanics. Could probably be done as a single plastic part but it would be complex. Right now, I don't see this happening.

If the original design is not important, cfishy's acrylic plate is a very good alternative.



I'm the someone. lol  Personally..if it's between simplifying the board, for instance ditching the trackpoint, and saving the project in some form, or ditching the board all together, I'm all for ditching the trackpoint, and having a mechanical programmable mini keyboard.  I think that's the selling point, not the fact that it also has a trackpoint, since I like my tbe anyway, as I'm sure others like their mice.

I think a simplified design that could be made into a kit relatively easily where the buyer could do all the soldering and such would definitely be terrific.

I like the idea of an acrylic mounting plate instead of steel because it would also allow for the buyer to modify the layout perhaps if they wanted, since acrylic can relatively be easier cut, say with a dremel, than steel could.  If we wanted to add an arrow section to the bottom right, or some other confuration, it might be feasible then.  It should also save on cost, since I've been pricing plates for my board and it's not looking too price effective.
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: lowpoly on Mon, 21 June 2010, 07:21:10
Here (http://geekhack.org/showwiki.php?title=Island:7422) is cfishy's thread with the acrylic backplate.
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: chimera15 on Mon, 21 June 2010, 07:39:22
Quote from: lowpoly;195170
Here (http://geekhack.org/showwiki.php?title=Island:7422) is cfishy's thread with the acrylic backplate.

Yeah Frankenstein, I saw the vid. ;)  He said he got the plexiglass laser cut, but didn't really go into detail?  Is it somewhere later in the thread?

The only thing I would worry about with the plexi is that it would effect the characteristics for the switch, and it would be significantly lighter than a board with a metal plate.
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: cfishy on Tue, 22 June 2010, 02:52:32
Quote from: chimera15;195172
Yeah Frankenstein, I saw the vid. ;)  He said he got the plexiglass laser cut, but didn't really go into detail?  Is it somewhere later in the thread?

The only thing I would worry about with the plexi is that it would effect the characteristics for the switch, and it would be significantly lighter than a board with a metal plate.

There's not much to say about the laser cut acrylics layer. I just draw the square holes with Corel Draw and send it to the laser cutter and wait til it's done.

Does the acrylics plate affect the feel of the switch? It does flex a little bit. It feels much lighter. I actually prefer that over the metal plate.

if you want it heavier, just add something heavy to it, like a steel plate on the bottom.
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: cfishy on Tue, 22 June 2010, 03:03:36
Quote from: lowpoly;195146


The ones I have seen were all ps/2 so the 4 wires are gnd,vcc,clock,data. It should be possible to connect the pointing stick to a Teensy (for ex.). There are some projects/libraries at avr-freaks.com that read ps/2 devices from an AVR. A single Teensy 2.0 could be all that is needed but you may run into timing issues. 16 ports for the matrix (8x8) and 2 for the pointing stick is all that is needed.


Thanks for the info!
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: chimera15 on Tue, 22 June 2010, 04:15:11
Quote from: cfishy;195405
There's not much to say about the laser cut acrylics layer. I just draw the square holes with Corel Draw and send it to the laser cutter and wait til it's done.

Does the acrylics plate affect the feel of the switch? It does flex a little bit. It feels much lighter. I actually prefer that over the metal plate.

if you want it heavier, just add something heavy to it, like a steel plate on the bottom.


 What laser cutter did you use?
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: cfishy on Tue, 22 June 2010, 04:19:02
The laser cutter is an Epilog 45 watts, I think. I cut it in my local techshop. You can just sent the job to somebody to cut it for you.
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: Rotlaus on Wed, 23 June 2010, 07:51:02
@lowpoly, do you have an template for the case? In electronic form? Would you mind to share that, so i can build my own MiniGuru?
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: lowpoly on Wed, 23 June 2010, 08:22:33
Quote from: Rotlaus;195689
@lowpoly, do you have an template for the case? In electronic form? Would you mind to share that, so i can build my own MiniGuru?


I still have the cardboard template:

(http://img517.imageshack.us/img517/2916/05cardboardtemplatesup2.jpg)

I'd need it back when you're finished with the case.
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: chimera15 on Wed, 23 June 2010, 08:26:35
Quote from: lowpoly;195694
I still have the cardboard template:

Show Image
(http://img517.imageshack.us/img517/2916/05cardboardtemplatesup2.jpg)


I'd need it back when you're finished with the case.


So what did you do, you made that and then sent it to a 3d printer?  You didn't do a 3d cg file that they worked off of?
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: lowpoly on Wed, 23 June 2010, 08:58:56
Basically I transfered the shape to a sheet of aluminum, then bent the edges.
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: lowpoly on Wed, 23 June 2010, 08:59:57
Basically I transfered the shape to a sheet of aluminum, then bent everything up.
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: chimera15 on Wed, 23 June 2010, 09:28:24
Ah, interesting.
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: lowpoly on Wed, 23 June 2010, 10:01:13
Quote from: lowpoly;195694
I'd need it back when you're finished with the case.


I'll see if I can scan those, no need to ship flat cardboard around.
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: Rotlaus on Thu, 24 June 2010, 00:57:59
Quote from: lowpoly;195713
I'll see if I can scan those, no need to ship flat cardboard around.


That would be awesome. Thanks.
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: Oqsy on Thu, 24 June 2010, 02:36:54
lowpoly, I'm amazed by the board you created.  I've never owned a cherry blue board, and I was hoping the mini guru would be my first.  Your skills are unmatched, and we were all rooting for you and the mini guru.  In fact, so much so that most of us here would probably roll our own if we knew it would come out anything like your design.  

I'd LOVE to have the skill and tools to make my own mini guru (blue switches, black keycaps, white case, white trackpoint, black mouse buttons), but even with all the parts and all of your detailed posts, I know I don't have it in me.  Even if I got mine to function, it would look disgraceful compared to your finished model.  

That's the most impressive part of the board...  like all genius designs, it looks like it should have always existed.  Like the "forms" of Greek philosophy, the mini guru is THE mini keyboard at it's pinnacle, pure and clean.

Even if the board never makes it to production in any form, it's the great idea that never quite makes it that intrigues the imagination of others.  

"SMiLE" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smile_%28Beach_Boys_album%29) by the Beach Boys comes to mind.  Fans at the time heard bits and pieces as it was being created and were completely blown away.  The record company and even the members of the band eventually gave up because they didn't share the vision of Brian Wilson.  However, there were people who got their hands on studio tapes (most likely session engineers) and passed them around, sharing the genius record that never was with like-minded fans.  Even the fragments of songs were inspiring enough to keep the idea alive for decades.  Brian Wilson finally completed a studio version of "SMiLE" (abandoning all the original tapes and takes as far as I know) in 2004 without the other Beach Boys.  For me the beauty of "SMiLE" was not the finished album, but the years between 1967 and 2004 when people admired what could have been, and used that as the basis for their own creations.  

Thanks for the great board.  Long live the mini guru, the greatest keyboard that never was!
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: cfishy on Thu, 24 June 2010, 03:46:45
Quote from: lowpoly;195713
I'll see if I can scan those, no need to ship flat cardboard around.

Lowpoly, how about just take a quick picture with a ruler next to it, that should be good enough. I'm sure people have to modify it a bit anyway.

It shouldn't be hard to dup the shape in sketchup quickly.
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: lowpoly on Thu, 24 June 2010, 03:54:18
Quote from: cfishy;195906
Lowpoly, how about just take a quick picture with a ruler next to it, that should be good enough. I'm sure people have to modify it a bit anyway.

It shouldn't be hard to dup the shape in sketchup quickly.


I still have that sheet of paper full of geometry calculations. :-) Took several hours to get the angles right.
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: Rotlaus on Thu, 24 June 2010, 05:05:51
Quote from: lowpoly;195907
I still have that sheet of paper full of geometry calculations. :-) Took several hours to get the angles right.


That's why i'm asked. I suck at math and i would get the angles never right.
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: zmurf on Fri, 25 June 2010, 08:42:09
Quote from: lowpoly;194205
It's not going to happen. :-(

Quote from the blog:



Let me add to that last sentence that I'm sorry I couldn't answer to any PMs or contact form mails during the last weeks because this was looming but a final decision had not been made.


But...  But... Noooo! I want one! I need to get a new keyboard with trackpoint for my work. The one I have is starting to fall apart.

Fsck!
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: n3rrd on Mon, 28 June 2010, 00:31:06
Quote from: ripster;196303
Dang, wish you had mentioned that yesterday.  There was a NIB IBM Space Saver II with trackpoint (rubber dome though) here on Ebay but it just sold. (http://cgi.ebay.com/IBM-Space-Saver-II-PS-2-Keyboard-37L0888-RT3200-Mouse-/110550957435?cmd=ViewItem&pt=PCA_Mice_Trackballs&hash=item19bd59bd7b)


I have one of those.  The domes degraded rather quickly... I love the track point though.  I'm in the process looking for a replacement and it kills me to hear that the Guru board was canceled :(
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: meltie on Thu, 15 July 2010, 02:45:28
I just found out. That's bad news. Like many people I would have bought it. Can't believe it.
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: vyshane on Thu, 22 July 2010, 10:59:59
Engadget has posted about the cancellation:

http://www.engadget.com/2010/07/22/guruboard-cancels-miniguru-keyboard-project/
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: wellington1869 on Thu, 22 July 2010, 15:35:28
Quote from: vyshane;205270
Engadget has posted about the cancellation:

http://www.engadget.com/2010/07/22/guruboard-cancels-miniguru-keyboard-project/


gizmodo too (http://gizmodo.com/5593906/the-miniguru-keyboard-that-could-have-changed-typing-forever-gets-cancelled)
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: wellington1869 on Thu, 22 July 2010, 16:09:40
omg that magazine cover is hilarious!!!! LOL!!!!

yea, the comments.  it just goes to show how little the rest of the tech world cares about keyboards (or how special we really are).
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: hoggy on Sat, 24 July 2010, 16:21:34
A few months ago I sent myself a reminder to check on the miniguru using futureme.org.


It arrived this morning...
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: zmurf on Thu, 29 July 2010, 04:42:19
Yepp.. Since it seems like there won't be any new mechanical keyboards with trackpoint produced I will just have to take matters in my own hands. I got a brand new Cherry G80-3000LQC (Cherry MX clears) together with a new Lenovo Thinkpad USB keyboard with trackpoint. So as soon as I get some time I'm going to modify them together by putting the trackpoint from the Lenovo keyboard into the G80 keyboard. I also have an old, broken IBM trackpoint USB keyboard that I will take some parts from.

I will create my own modification thread for this project where I will put up pictures and stuff... so stay tuned. :)
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: kriminal on Thu, 29 July 2010, 07:32:21
sigh....
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: ironman31 on Thu, 29 July 2010, 08:40:21
How much would they have to expect to sell for them to have gone through with it?
They seemed like they had more advertising than any mechanical keyboard I've seen (was featured in a little of well known PC magazines), and pretty much everyone on here was stoked about getting one.
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: lowpoly on Fri, 10 December 2010, 13:41:12
I'm currently thinking about a smaller scale production or a kit.

Product and development would be simplified:



I'd do the mechanical construction and switch pcb development myself.

It will take some time. No new deadline! :wink:

Advantage of a kit would be a simplified legal situation (think EMV testing).

This approach will most likely destroy any chances for competitive pricing though.

What do you think?
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: clickclack on Fri, 10 December 2010, 13:42:59
=)
... I do have more to say but I wanted to smile first
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: clickclack on Fri, 10 December 2010, 13:52:36
...I think it's a very interesting idea!
-machined case, I think that would be cool, but honestly anything would be cool, so no worries there.

-machined mouse buttons, again would be cool, but that's not a worry

-no usb hub, as in an extra one? or as in a detacheable cable? If "extra" We don't really need an extra one, so no worries there. Edit: I see you did mean the extra usb hub, I don't really see a problem with that.

-Existing controller, hey if it works well then no worries! Should be great.

-nay on multi-platform...  I am a simple user so I don't see a problem. Perhaps current softwares could cover this?

-"Kit" sounds like fun, even low production sounds good.

Maybe I will have something more useful to say in a second...
Let the cogs mesh!



Edit: ooops, this was supposed to be in that same post above.
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: WhiteRice on Fri, 10 December 2010, 13:53:56
(http://zachwang.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/12/sd.jpg)
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: itlnstln on Fri, 10 December 2010, 13:57:43
What WhiteRice said.  Anything that makes the MiniGuru come to life.  Can we still have Chocolate Creme?
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: lowpoly on Fri, 10 December 2010, 14:00:40
Quote from: clickclack;260850
-no usb hub, as in an extra one? or as in a detacheable cable? If "extra" We don't really need an extra one, so no worries there.

Detachable cable but no additional USB ports.

Two things of which I'm not 100% sure if they can  be solved:

The pointing stick unit must be available in smaller quantities. For ex. Alps wasn't very interested when I asked for 10000, they had to think about it first.

The Teensy (or whatever) must be able to scan the keyboard and read the ps/2 signal from the stick. Possible in theory but might become difficult.
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: itlnstln on Fri, 10 December 2010, 14:03:18
I would have thought 10,000 would have been a pretty good-sized MOQ.
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: lowpoly on Fri, 10 December 2010, 14:10:05
Quote from: itlnstln;260856
Can we still have Chocolate Creme?

Should be possible. That's why I was never really interested in the all black, plastic case, ANSI only, made in China option.
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: lowpoly on Fri, 10 December 2010, 14:15:58
Quote from: itlnstln;260868
I would have thought 10,000 would have been a pretty good-sized MOQ.


I talked to another manufacturer and first thing they told me was that they don't even start to think about a new input control (like a capacitive sensor) if you don't buy in the six digit range. It was upper six digit range, IIRC.
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: sixty on Fri, 10 December 2010, 14:21:29
use the unicomp sticks, lol.
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: ironman31 on Fri, 10 December 2010, 14:52:23
When I saw that this thread was brought back from the dead I was hoping it was a post from lowpoly... and sure enough, it was. Great news to hear. Ill definitely be a customer if the price isn't too ridiculous, and seeing that I'm about to buy that bumble bee keyboard, I don't think it should be too much of a problem ;)
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: 42.tar.gz on Fri, 10 December 2010, 15:32:05
Quote from: lowpoly;260840

What do you think?

Sounds great, I agree with WhiteRice. :) I was really looking forward to the Miniguru; would have been the perfect keyboard IMHO.
Regarding the controller: the AIKON (http://geekhack.org/showwiki.php?title=Island:8308&do=comments&page=2) seems to be quite nice. As far as I can see, it's not able to read a PS/2 signal, though. :-/
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: AndrewZorn on Fri, 10 December 2010, 21:46:09
Quote from: WhiteRice;260851
Show Image
(http://zachwang.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/12/sd.jpg)

EXACTLY

I was linked here, and read the bad news.  I was quite down, went to last page to leave another sad face response.

And THEN THIS.
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: woody on Sat, 11 December 2010, 01:38:59
I can handle the controller part, with all the bells and whistles in ... IFF the keyboard is going to be great.
PM me if I lose track on GH, for any keyboard manufacturer who'd want funky controller.
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: J888www on Sat, 11 December 2010, 04:17:06
As to the Pointing Stick, some people rarely would use due to their fingers not being as nimble. How many people in this Forum actually use a Pointing Stick ? I have it on my ThinkPad but I can't seem to recall ever using this PS.

In "Kit Form", now that's interesting, it would create more bonding with your tool if you had to assemble to make it functional.

All in all, everyone would have differences in opinion, so just build it to suit yourself. I surmise that if you're happy with the result, most others would be likewise.

Glad to hear there is now the existence of "Hope".
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: hasu on Sat, 11 December 2010, 04:33:34
It is great to hear about reviving MiniGuru!
MiniGuru drove me into keyboard modding.

I hope the firmware code is open for people customizing on their needs.
AIKON is not open IIRC. I think Teensy or AVR is a reasonable choice.

Quote from: 42.tar.gz;260923

Regarding the controller: the AIKON (http://geekhack.org/showwiki.php?title=Island:8308&do=comments&page=2) seems to be quite nice. As far as I can see, it's not able to read a PS/2 signal, though. :-/
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: WhiteRice on Sat, 11 December 2010, 04:35:02
Give me a machined case, pcb, and controller. I will be happy everything else is a pleasant extra.

I can imagine the difficulty in obtaining components. Best of luck!
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: Azuremen on Sat, 11 December 2010, 04:46:19
Very excited to see this going again. Would most certainly be interested in one as well provided the price isn't too crazy. The pointing stick would be amazing to have as well, if just to reduce how often my hands have to leave the keyboard. I honestly can't think of a keyboard I want more than this.

Best of luck with this and keep us up to date!
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: victheslik on Sat, 11 December 2010, 04:55:33
-
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: CeeSA on Sat, 11 December 2010, 05:11:16
i am looking forward to it! one reason i joined geekhack was the miniguru
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: (X "_____") on Sat, 11 December 2010, 06:04:30
Great news, I'm really looking forward to this. Best of luck with production.
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: hasu on Sat, 11 December 2010, 06:16:48
Quote from: woody;261187
I can handle the controller part, with all the bells and whistles in ... IFF the keyboard is going to be great.
PM me if I lose track on GH, for any keyboard manufacturer who'd want funky controller.


I am happy to help on firmware too, if code and developing process is open.
...and if you are patient with my Engrish.

I am ready to start :)

Teensy and TrackPoint Unit(PS/2) for development:
(http://geekhack.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=13944&stc=1&d=1292075172)


(http://geekhack.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=13945&stc=1&d=1292075172)
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: WhiteRice on Sat, 11 December 2010, 10:02:35
Oh wow that's pretty neat hasu. Took me a moment to figure out what was going on is those pictures.
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: eMps on Sat, 11 December 2010, 10:03:11
Oh, the excitement! I can't wait!
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: iMav on Sat, 11 December 2010, 10:33:28
I'm a big trackpoint fan.  I'd love to see a decent, portable keyboard with a decent trackpoint.  My M4-1's are nice, but mechanical switches and USB would be nice.
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: JBert on Sun, 12 December 2010, 05:54:14
Quote from: lowpoly;260840
I'm currently thinking about a smaller scale production or a kit.[/quot]Perfect!

Quote from: lowpoly;260840
Product and development would be simplified:

-machined aluminum case (should be better than die-cast anyway)
-machined mouse buttons
Okay, I don't particularly care for metal but if it turns out to be cheaper than plastic, fine for me. I won't have a metalworking shop soon.

Quote from: lowpoly;260840
-no USB hub
Fine, this saves space in the case.

Quote from: lowpoly;260840
-use an existing controller like the Teensy
-no fancy multi-platform programming software, maybe later
Actually, this choice would mean a couple of things:
-Mass ordering Teensy boards would mean that Europeans wouldn't have to order from PJRC directly so it saves a bit on shipping.
-The Teensy has its own software for programming: TeensyLoader (http://www.pjrc.com/teensy/loader.html). It is multi-platform already!


Price would be some issue for me, though an indication of the price range would help much. At any rate, it would probably cheaper and more refined than anything I would come up with.
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: didjamatic on Sun, 12 December 2010, 06:08:29
I like metal, lowpoly and this project.  Hope it works out!
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: nanu on Sun, 12 December 2010, 10:19:32
Quote from: JBert;261641
Fine, this saves space in the case.

If you mean it gets displaced by air, good; the miniguru wouldn't be what it is if the case profile turns into a flat rectangular tray.
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: sudowork on Sun, 12 December 2010, 10:45:41
Didn't have time to read through the entire thread, but here's my input:

Necessary:
Mini-footprint with function keys being accessible through a function key
A nice switch, preferably an option to choose between switches
Trackpoint + mouse buttons
Detachable USB cable
I'm a Dvorak user, so blank caps would be a plus (or something that's not too explicit)

Extraneous goodies:
Machined housing
USB Hub
Color customization

The kit idea would be something I would be up for if it's going to make this thing happen. Really I just want a mini-guru type keyboard to go to production. I had my hopes up for the guru, and if there's a product that can match 80% of those expectations I would buy it.
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: mkawa on Sun, 12 December 2010, 21:41:01
Quote
machined aluminum case (should be better than die-cast anyway)
machined mouse buttons
no USB hub
use an existing controller like the Teensy
no fancy multi-platform programming software, maybe later

I'd do the mechanical construction and switch pcb development myself.


very interested in the possibility of a kit.

my suggestion would be to aim for a parts-level kit where custom parts are made in small/medium runs and parts lists are crowd-sourced/made available for commonly available bits. ie, design and sell a chassis and boards and let the community populate the rest as it wishes.

this keeps your risk/investment relatively low, and insulates you from many of the ridiculous but inevitable demands that people will have. basically, design for simplicity of construction and extensibility and let people populate their own product as they wish. the trackpoint, for example, can just be mounting points in the chassis and a pinout for the unicomp controller/stick, which builders would be free to source on their own.

you might want to check out the diy audio community (in particular the smaller-scale headphone electronics people, see http://www.amb.org/audio/ for a particular organized example) to see how they do it -- it's remarkably efficient and has given the community many awesome projects. manufacturing is almost exclusively done by individuals and a few proficient builders who serve as cottage factories.

in particular, audio guys tend to crowd-source the physical design of projects. it's proven to be a much more effective way to end up with a polished design.

anyway, please keep people updated.
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: sudowork on Mon, 13 December 2010, 03:48:12
Quote from: mkawa;261994

you might want to check out the diy audio community (in particular the smaller-scale headphone electronics people, see http://www.amb.org/audio/ for a particular organized example) to see how they do it -- it's remarkably efficient and has given the community many awesome projects. manufacturing is almost exclusively done by individuals and a few proficient builders who serve as cottage factories.

in particular, audio guys tend to crowd-source the physical design of projects. it's proven to be a much more effective way to end up with a polished design.

anyway, please keep people updated.


Yeah, I agree. I think following AMB's model would be a good step. They basically just produce the PCB's, and some of the more idiosyncratic parts. Other parts are just sourced from common electronics dealers. I actually have built two products from the AMB line (gamma DAC and M^3 amp). This also leaves a market for professional builders for those not up to the DIY job.
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: sixty on Mon, 13 December 2010, 05:10:37
Love the idea of the kits, though most members will be too greedy/cheap/poor to afford it, judging by comments on the mentions of the previous Korean kits.

As for those expecting it to be cheaper than plastic...

With the current setup, pcb, switches and a decent quality cnc engineered metal case I think we are looking at $300-500 per keyboard, probably more if lowpoly has it done here in the EU. And that is assuming you stuff on your own keycaps.
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: lowpoly on Mon, 13 December 2010, 11:55:18
Thanks for the comments.

I'm currently planning with 100 units (this may change later on).


Quote from: woody;261187
I can handle the controller part, with all the bells and whistles in ... IFF the keyboard is going to be great.
PM me if I lose track on GH, for any keyboard manufacturer who'd want funky controller.


Quote from: hasu;261239
I am happy to help on firmware too, if code and developing process is open.
...and if you are patient with my Engrish.

I am ready to start :)

Teensy and TrackPoint Unit(PS/2) for development:
[pics]

Open controller software development would be great! Awesome work in the "Alternative Controller ..." thread btw.


Quote from: victheslik;261226
I wonder if it is possible to have an option without trackpoint and mouse buttons just a stand alone keyboard hmm...
I'll check this when I finally contact companies/individuals for CNC machining. The (minor) problem with the stick-less body is that it has no cut-outs for the mouse buttons.

Quote from: JBert;261641
-Mass ordering Teensy boards would mean that Europeans wouldn't have to order from PJRC directly so it saves a bit on shipping.
I have to check what kind of CE-testing is required for this type of product.

Quote from: nanu;261678
If you mean it gets displaced by air, good; the miniguru wouldn't be what it is if the case profile turns into a flat rectangular tray.
I agree. However, the current case has a height of 22.4mm if you put it upside down on a desk. This requires 100x25mm flat material. Using 100x20mm material instead would make the raw aluminum cheaper by 1/5 (Eur15,60 instead of Eur20,00 +tax for each). Will also depend on how much additional material the machining requires. I don't know that yet.

Quote from: mkawa;261994
my suggestion would be to aim for a parts-level kit where custom parts are made in small/medium runs and parts lists are crowd-sourced/made available for commonly available bits. ie, design and sell a chassis and boards and let the community populate the rest as it wishes.

this keeps your risk/investment relatively low, and insulates you from many of the ridiculous but inevitable demands that people will have. basically, design for simplicity of construction and extensibility and let people populate their own product as they wish. the trackpoint, for example, can just be mounting points in the chassis and a pinout for the unicomp controller/stick, which builders would be free to source on their own.

you might want to check out the diy audio community (in particular the smaller-scale headphone electronics people, see http://www.amb.org/audio/ for a particular organized example) to see how they do it -- it's remarkably efficient and has given the community many awesome projects. manufacturing is almost exclusively done by individuals and a few proficient builders who serve as cottage factories.

in particular, audio guys tend to crowd-source the physical design of projects. it's proven to be a much more effective way to end up with a polished design.

anyway, please keep people updated.
These are good ideas. I'll have a look at amb.org.

For keyboard parts it may make sense to buy larger quantities as there's usually a significant price drop included (like switches or keycaps).
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: WhiteRice on Mon, 13 December 2010, 12:02:06
So I finally figured what I can do to help. I'm not sure if you have a keycap solution in mind, but I have dealt with Signature Plastics in the past.

If needed let me know the specifications.
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: Lanx on Mon, 13 December 2010, 12:41:42
i think if you were to offer the casing alone as well members would find that awesome, at least I do.
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: lowpoly on Mon, 13 December 2010, 13:44:18
Quote from: WhiteRice;262335
So I finally figured what I can do to help. I'm not sure if you have a keycap solution in mind, but I have dealt with Signature Plastics in the past.

If needed let me know the specifications.

I was just going to contact SP.

Help would be great, thank you.

Specifications:

Standard alpha part ANSI 61 keys, ISO 62 keys.

I guess it would be cheapest to take what they have but I'd prefer if it was Cherry compatible (stabilizers, space bar switch position, etc).

Choice of stabilizers will affect pcb and maybe body construction.

They probably have black and white but what about additional colors: gray, cream, brown (with black lettering)?

With and without symbols?

Maybe ISO languages?

Materials? Edit: Lasered? Double Shot?

Edit2: And a swirl key would be nice!

Edit3: Control keys for CapsLock position and additional blank keys for the spacebar row (even with symbol sets).

To keep it simple, quotes for 5 and 10 units would be fine. Less than 5 will be too expensive, more than 10 won't happen that often. Quotes should include stabilizers.

For the curious, here's what chimera15 found out:
http://geekhack.org/showpost.php?p=197816&postcount=58

Significant price drop from 5 units on.
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: J888www on Mon, 13 December 2010, 15:31:57
If you are planning only 100 units, I would like to pre-order 1 at the present moment, depending on the availability, this may change later on.
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: JBert on Mon, 13 December 2010, 16:12:02
Quote from: sixty;262127
As for those expecting it to be cheaper than plastic...

With the current setup, pcb, switches and a decent quality cnc engineered metal case I think we are looking at $300-500 per keyboard, probably more if lowpoly has it done here in the EU. And that is assuming you stuff on your own keycaps.
What's the tooling cost for plastic? It didn't come cheap either way...

Actually, what I'm counting on the most is the PCB and controller setup as I've got enough switch donors for now, maybe even a spare case to molest. Having a nice case at a decent price would be a great bonus, but I'm not really counting on it yet.
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: victheslik on Tue, 14 December 2010, 04:48:29
-
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: lowpoly on Tue, 14 December 2010, 06:52:30
Quote from: J888www;262487
If you are planning only 100 units, I would like to pre-order 1 at the present moment, depending on the availability, this may change later on.

Great, thank you. :-)

Quote from: JBert;262511
What's the tooling cost for plastic? It didn't come cheap either way...

Actually, what I'm counting on the most is the PCB and controller setup as I've got enough switch donors for now, maybe even a spare case to molest. Having a nice case at a decent price would be a great bonus, but I'm not really counting on it yet.

Tooling cost for a mold is very expensive. There is no room for error. If you find a siginificant error after tooling you pay again. So you need someone to design it for you (I could't do that). With CNC machining errors can happen too but there is a lot less cost involved. Also, I can machine a prototype myself to see how it works, I have a mill (no CNC). I just ordered a block of aluminum.

Also, I'm not a fan of painted plastic.

Quote from: victheslik;262716
I meant to say no track point, and no mouse clicks as well. Just a stand alone keyboard my mistake... what would be really lovely if you did a collab with Click Clak and made a titanium body, with titanium keycaps oh.... the beauty...

Sounds good. Titanium color would have to be painted though.
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: lowpoly on Tue, 14 December 2010, 06:59:48
Quote from: J888www;262487
If you are planning only 100 units, I would like to pre-order 1 at the present moment, depending on the availability, this may change later on.

Great, thank you. :-)

Quote from: JBert;262511
What's the tooling cost for plastic? It didn't come cheap either way...

Actually, what I'm counting on the most is the PCB and controller setup as I've got enough switch donors for now, maybe even a spare case to molest. Having a nice case at a decent price would be a great bonus, but I'm not really counting on it yet.

Tooling cost for a mold is very expensive. And there is no room for error. If you find a siginificant error after tooling you pay again. So you need someone to design it for you (I wouldn't do that myself). With CNC machining errors can happen too but there's a lot less cost involved. Also, I can machine a prototype myself to see how it works, I have a mill (no CNC). Currently waiting for the first block of aluminum.

Also, I'm not a fan of painted plastic.

Quote from: victheslik;262716
what would be really lovely if you did a collab with Click Clak and made a titanium body, with titanium keycaps oh.... the beauty...

Would love to do that. Titanium color would have to be painted though. :-)
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: Oqsy on Tue, 14 December 2010, 23:33:42
(http://i231.photobucket.com/albums/ee2/sfn1971/a-new-hope-luke-skywalker.jpg)
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: lowpoly on Fri, 17 December 2010, 02:48:51
Quote from: Oqsy;263326
[pic]

I put a new caption on the product page. :-)

As for keycaps, the crud (http://geekhack.org/showpost.php?p=263731&postcount=61) of the SP caps may be a problem as the lower edge is out in the open.
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: Mr. Fish on Fri, 17 December 2010, 03:27:44
This keyboard is literally what got me interested in getting a Mechanical keyboard, I just thought it was such a great idea for a keyboard like that, especially the trackpoint appeals to me.

I may not be able to afford the cost of it if it's not being mass-produced (or at all really) but it is very exciting that you're making a kit.

Best of luck to you.
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: lowpoly on Fri, 17 December 2010, 03:28:05
Edit: ^^^ Thanks! And welcome to geekhack.

Got confirmation today that the Pointing Stick unit will be available in quantities of 100!

Also got this:

(http://www.guru-board.com/pics/miniguru_aluminum.jpg)

Heavy.
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: RoboKrikit on Fri, 17 December 2010, 03:32:18
O_O

That does look heavy.

(http://i.imgur.com/U7YF6l.jpg) (http://imgur.com/U7YF6)
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: victheslik on Fri, 17 December 2010, 05:17:10
-
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: lowpoly on Fri, 17 December 2010, 06:48:03
No, we'll see how the numbers will be, eventually. This may also depend on availability of the KBC40.
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: bpiphany on Fri, 17 December 2010, 07:17:01
Is it possible to subscribe to a thread without posting anything in it? Can't seem to find a link...

This is a very interesting project =)

I have a couple of related questions that I thought I'd post here to see if anyone can give me answers to them.

I have a small keyboard building project of my own and I'm looking for the cherry stabilizers. I have two sets of unprinted filco keysets to play around with with 6.25 key wide spacebars. I bought cherry switches from mouser.com and they have leveling mechanisms for 7, 8, 9 and 10 key wide space bars. I figure they won't fit my space bars..

Is it possible to get cherry keycaps from somewhere in smaller quantities? All sorts of widths would be interesting, 1.25, 1.5, 1.75, 2.0, 2.25, 2.5, 2.75, 6.0, 7.0 and 8.0. Cherry has some data (http://www.cherrycorp.com/english/switches/key/mx.htm) on their homepage for keycaps. No pruduct numbers and I can't seem to find them anywhere either. The standard version would fit me perfect if I could get them somewhere.. Then swapping them around among the rows wouldn't be any problem either.
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: lowpoly on Fri, 17 December 2010, 07:43:10
Quote
Is it possible to get cherry keycaps from somewhere in smaller quantities?

Original Cherry? I don't think so. I asked for a quote for hundreds of thousands and they didn't even answer. My theory is that the inquiry got stuck somewhere, where someone couldn't decide what to do with it. With double shots gone there's only lasered available and I think they laser them after keyboard assembly. Which means there are no single keycaps with symbols at all. There are still the spherical caps in the Cherry MX data sheet. These have all the same height though. And nobody mentioned those ever.

Edit: these here (http://geekhack.org/showthread.php?t=5418&highlight=G80-0349) should be the spherical caps.
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: bpiphany on Fri, 17 December 2010, 07:54:34
Quote from: lowpoly;264537
Original Cherry?

Edit: these here (http://geekhack.org/showthread.php?t=5418&highlight=G80-0349) should be the spherical caps.


Not necessarily original cherrys but caps with the cherry cross mounting thingy.

I thought thoose "standard" caps were just flat on top like on most laptop keyboards... Having the same height would be a good property to me. Unprinted is good too =) Seems strange it's sort of easy to buy the switches but hard to get hold of caps to go on top of them =P

Edit: My idea for a case is to just take the mounting plate and having it bent down to form the front and back. Then another plain plate mounted under the pcb to have it enclosed. Rubber feets mounted on the bottom plate or to the downward pointing edge of the top plate. Different height feets could serve for different board angles. Perhaps some rubber inserts on the ends between the two plates as sides..
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: lowpoly on Fri, 17 December 2010, 09:16:54
Just the bent plate would be elegant I think. You can handwire the switches.

As for keycaps, search for Signature Plastics. A lot of info in the ROUND TWO and ROUND THREE threads, first page in the keyboard forum.
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: bpiphany on Fri, 17 December 2010, 11:05:46
Apparently I did a horrible job googling for signature plastics... I ended up at http://www.signatureplastics.com/profile.html Thanks for setting me straight =) Seems like a great place. The $100 minimum order doesn't sound too bad at all.

It's the pbt plastic that is dyable right?
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: kidchunks on Fri, 17 December 2010, 13:14:43
Glad that the project is back in effect even if only for kits. If I pass on a Leopold then I'll def be looking into getting one of these. I love DIY projects!
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: sairex on Fri, 17 December 2010, 14:35:26
Thanks for reviving this project.  I joined GH after learning about the mini guru as well and would definitely consider ordering the DIY kit, depending on how difficult it was (never done any keyboarding modding).
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: salcan on Fri, 17 December 2010, 16:09:38
Quote from: sairex;264791
Thanks for reviving this project.  I joined GH after learning about the mini guru as well and would definitely consider ordering the DIY kit, depending on how difficult it was (never done any keyboarding modding).


same on all accounts, aside from the modding thing. Anyway, i'm interested.
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: Broncosoozie on Fri, 17 December 2010, 16:21:32
This looks like such a great keyboard for work, I'm really interested in this and hope it isn't too hard to pull off in the end.

After looking at the basic setup of a mouse and keyboard, though, I have to ask: Is there scrolling functionality?  Could we (for example) hold down the meta key and use the touchpoint to scroll, or is that out of the limitations of the hardware?  I'm fine with pg-up, pg-down if that's all it has, as I think sacrificing scroll for the small form factor and layout is worth it, but would be nice to have!
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: Sam on Fri, 17 December 2010, 16:40:44
Nice to see this back on track.  The MiniGuru, or rather the cancellation of it, is what brought me to GeekHack.  I was looking for a mini keyboard for use when traveling and the MiniGuru seemed ideal.  Seeing it get cancelled, I started looking for alternatives, which led me here.  I'm actually in the first stage now of designing my own keyboard based on this and other keyboards and realizing that if I want my perfect keyboard I'll have to design it myself.  I still though would probably be interested in a MiniGuru for use until I finish my own keyboard, which could be a long time given my busy schedule.

Thanks for doing this project, if nothing else than for giving me some inspiration and opening my eyes to keyboard alternatives.
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: lapin00b on Sat, 18 December 2010, 00:28:30
O dear Lord, thanks for listening to my prayers \o/

Man, I was so despaired I was considering building one myself but that would have taken ages.

Count me in for at least 1 kb in your (hopefully "first") batch of 100 !
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: hoggy on Sat, 18 December 2010, 05:08:26
Yay!  Can't do that much in way of helping getting it built, but would really like to help out by buying one.

Devlin.co.uk do keycaps - might cut down on the shipping costs...

Really pleased to see this going again...
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: Cort on Sat, 18 December 2010, 16:10:53
Just posting because it seems to be the only way to get notified about Miniguru updates (and this version of vBulletin apparently can't subscribe to a thread without posting to it).
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: mSSM on Sun, 19 December 2010, 09:15:40
I heard about the Miniguru quite a long time ago, and always thought it's one of the most beautiful boards I saw so far.

I would be extremely interested in getting one of those kits. What would the difficulty level in putting one of those things together? And what would the price estimate approximately be?
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: PikePlight on Sun, 19 December 2010, 09:34:29
My first post on GH.

Only ever found this forum because of the MiniGuru.

Count me in.
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: bigpook on Sun, 19 December 2010, 09:51:47
Quote from: mSSM;265678


I would be extremely interested in getting one of those kits. What would the difficulty level in putting one of those things together? And what would the price estimate approximately be?


: ) If the cost isn't insane then count me in.
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: bigpook on Sun, 19 December 2010, 09:52:42
Quote from: mSSM;265678


I would be extremely interested in getting one of those kits. What would the difficulty level in putting one of those things together? And what would the price estimate approximately be?


: ) If the cost isn't insane then count me in.

'insane' is as yet to be determined : )
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: WhiteRice on Sun, 19 December 2010, 22:07:05
Quote from: lowpoly;262409
I was just going to contact SP.

Help would be great, thank you.

Specifications:

Standard alpha part ANSI 61 keys, ISO 62 keys.

I guess it would be cheapest to take what they have but I'd prefer if it was Cherry compatible (stabilizers, space bar switch position, etc).

Choice of stabilizers will affect pcb and maybe body construction.

They probably have black and white but what about additional colors: gray, cream, brown (with black lettering)?

With and without symbols?

Maybe ISO languages?

Materials? Edit: Lasered? Double Shot?

Edit2: And a swirl key would be nice!

Edit3: Control keys for CapsLock position and additional blank keys for the spacebar row (even with symbol sets).

To keep it simple, quotes for 5 and 10 units would be fine. Less than 5 will be too expensive, more than 10 won't happen that often. Quotes should include stabilizers.

For the curious, here's what chimera15 found out:
http://geekhack.org/showpost.php?p=197816&postcount=58

Significant price drop from 5 units on.


lowpoly, sorry I didn't get back to you sooner.

Signature keys are compatible with both cherry and filco layouts.(Stem and stabilizer) The space bar has dual middle stems to accommodate.

Some members have already ordered color rings from SP. I will find a picture and post it here.

They can produce blank keys or keys with legends. Blanks are cheaper.

The most affordable keys are the abs doubleshot keys.

If you can get a CAD or Adobe Illustrator file with your swirl image, they can make a double shot key of it.

Extra keys like the long control or the blanks cost and additional $0.80-$1.15 per key. This is also mitigated by quantity.

I asked for quotes for 25, 50, 100 sets. I will get the quotes for 5 and 10, but in my experience the price drop once you hit 25 is significant.

(http://imgur.com/duYa9.jpg)
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: zmurf on Mon, 20 December 2010, 02:03:42
Yepp.. as some of you know I hadn't patience enough to wait... so I made my own kit:

http://geekhack.org/showwiki.php?title=Island:11420

(More pictures (http://picasaweb.google.com/k.peter.mattsson/CherryG803000LQCWithLatestGenerationTrackpoint#))

:)

(But mine isn't a mini keyboard though... :/ )

By modding my way you get a modern Lenovo trackpoint with three mousebuttons and Win7 drivers. Which I think is a better solution. Those generic Pointing Sticks is usually not as good as IBM/Lenovo trackpoint... And as I understood it only has 2 mouse buttons?
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: lowpoly on Mon, 20 December 2010, 03:44:59
Thanks for commenting.

Quote from: Broncosoozie;264893
After looking at the basic setup of a mouse and keyboard, though, I have to ask: Is there scrolling functionality?  Could we (for example) hold down the meta key and use the touchpoint to scroll, or is that out of the limitations of the hardware?

The prototype has only 2 mouse buttons because I used a Trackpoint IV from an IBM 8xxx keyboard. The mass production model was supposed to have a thin horizontal plastic stripe as a third mouse button. Not sure if this will happen with the kit as I have to keep the number of custom made parts to a minimum. And three of the regular buttons would ruin the design. :-)

Using a regular key should be possible if the pointing stick can be read by the Teensy.

Quote from: hoggy;265101
Devlin.co.uk do keycaps - might cut down on the shipping costs...

I remember these now, thanks for reminding me. Other manufacturers than SP are interesting if the crud problem cannot be solved.

Quote from: mSSM;265678
What would the difficulty level in putting one of those things together? And what would the price estimate approximately be?

Too early for pricing. Hard to say what the difficulty level will be. I'd prefer 'bolt together' but this means pre-assembling the pcbs. Maybe this can be done, maybe other members will do it to make some money. Worst case it will be DIY.

I will avoid SMT parts for the pcb though.

Quote from: PikePlight;265683
My first post on GH.

Only ever found this forum because of the MiniGuru.

Count me in.

Welcome! And thanks.

Quote from: WhiteRice;265965
lowpoly, sorry I didn't get back to you sooner.

Signature keys are compatible with both cherry and filco layouts.(Stem and stabilizer) The space bar has dual middle stems to accommodate.

Some members have already ordered color rings from SP. I will find a picture and post it here.

They can produce blank keys or keys with legends. Blanks are cheaper.

The most affordable keys are the abs doubleshot keys.

If you can get a CAD or Adobe Illustrator file with your swirl image, they can make a double shot key of it.

Extra keys like the long control or the blanks cost and additional $0.80-$1.15 per key. This is also mitigated by quantity.

I asked for quotes for 25, 50, 100 sets. I will get the quotes for 5 and 10, but in my experience the price drop once you hit 25 is significant.

[pic]


Thanks, those are good news.

As for stabilizers, do you know if SP has stabilizers? I'll try to get quotes and MOQ for Cherry stabilizers anyway. Then we can decide.

Having thought about this during the weekend, it may be a bit early to get keycap prices. It will be several months until everything is ready.

I'll try to get those color rings from SP. Was the upper one the ABS ring and there is clear plastic among those? This would mean there could be double shots with clear symbols? That would be great because with a 4 layer pcb it would be easy to have individual LEDs per switch. For ex. you could have clear in black keycaps and if you want to see the symbols you switch on the LEDs. Teensy++ has enough additional connections for a 8x8 matrix for the LEDs. Meaning you could program which keys will light. Like WASD or F,J. Just thinking aloud. However, this would be too much for a first step.


Quote from: zmurf;266034
By modding my way you get a modern Lenovo trackpoint with three mousebuttons and Win7 drivers. Which I think is a better solution. Those generic Pointing Sticks is usually not as good as IBM/Lenovo trackpoint... And as I understood it only has 2 mouse buttons?

Good work! IBM did use 'generic Pointing Sticks' too. :-) The TP4 I used for the prototype was made by Bourns, not by IBM. No third button on this one. Not available anymore, btw. I'm going to use one made by a company that has been an OEM supplier for Thinkpad pointing in the past. It will have 3 button capabilities. Also, running it through the Teensy means that it should be possible to influence the characteristics in the firmware, no driver necessary. Well, that's the plan at least.
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: zmurf on Mon, 20 December 2010, 04:26:27
Quote from: lowpoly;266053
IBM did use 'generic Pointing Sticks' too. :-) The TP2 I used for the prototype was made by Bourns, not by IBM. No third button on this one. Not available anymore, btw. I'm going to use one made by a company that has been an OEM supplier for Thinkpad pointing in the past. It will have 3 button capabilities. Also, running it through the Teensy means that it should be possible to influence the characteristics in the firmware, no driver necessary. Well, that's the plan at least.


Ah... didn't know that.

Well.. anyway. I'm going to want to buy one of the kits when they are done...
I use my modded keyboard at work. But it would be nice to have something equivalent at home. And if you are going to sell kits I can as well buy one from you for good measure. :)
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: gtklocker on Mon, 20 December 2010, 15:57:10
Count me in, but I'd like one *without* that mouse-like thingy, if possible! ;)

If not, no problem, the keyboard is awesome and I will cope with it.

I just want a low price, at about <60$!
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: mkawa on Mon, 20 December 2010, 16:48:58
through-hole for the PCB is ideal, but in the case that some chips come in only SMT, i think the preferred option is to have the following purchasing options: a) bare board b) bare board with SMT parts mounted (extra cost).

Also, I don't like pre-populated boards for a couple of reasons:

1) the time that you would spend populating 100 boards could be much better spent in CAD or some other aspect of design or parts production/sourcing

2) i imagine the board design will be somewhat customizable, which would make mass production particularly hard

3) extra cost. unless you're planning on stuffing more than 100 boards at once and you have an army of low-paid elves to stuff boards, the builder will probably end up spending less to populate the board than he would if he were paying you for parts + labor.

4) i imagine you won't be able to test the board without switches, and the switches will clearly be the most customized/contentious/user populated part of the keyboard.

anyway, long story short, as long as the board doesn't require superhuman skill to populate, i think DIY is likely to be the best case, not worst case. i could be completely wrong about this, but this is my impression, again, from DIY audio (although do note that nearly every component in an audio circuit is highly contentious)

finally, keep in mind that the individual parts you design and produce won't necessarily be used in exactly the way or configuration that you imagine. some people will want to use your board in their own chassis, (and v.v.!).
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: WhiteRice on Mon, 20 December 2010, 18:19:22
lowpoly,

Quote

Pricing is as follows:
2-shot keyset:
5 sets           $211.50 / set
10 sets          $116.03 / set
15 sets          $86.62 / set
20 sets          $71.92 / set
25 sets          $63.09 / set
50 sets          $45.44 / set
100 sets        $36.62 / set
 
Blank keyset:
5 sets           $108.49 / set
10 sets          $62.75 / set
15 sets          $47.51 / set
20 sets          $39.89 / set
25 sets          $35.31 / set
50 sets          $26.17 / set
100 sets        $21.59 / set


This is for the 61 ANSI. I used this picture as a base of reference.

(http://img517.imageshack.us/img517/2162/07topvr0.jpg)

For the ISO the price wouldn't change too much.

Signature wanted to let me know that they do not have the tooling for domed keys. If they made the swirl key it would be flat profiled.

I need to clear up some information about stabilizers, and I will get back to you.
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: lowpoly on Tue, 21 December 2010, 06:26:26
Quote from: gtklocker;266372
Count me in, but I'd like one *without* that mouse-like thingy, if possible! ;)

If not, no problem, the keyboard is awesome and I will cope with it.

I just want a low price, at about <60$!

There have been a couple of requests for a 'board without pointing. It will depend on body manufacturing. Maybe I can mill the cutouts myself.

As for the price - that's not possible with a mini series.

Quote from: mkawa;266412
through-hole for the PCB is ideal, but in the case that some chips come in only SMT, i think the preferred option is to have the following purchasing options: a) bare board b) bare board with SMT parts mounted (extra cost).

Also, I don't like pre-populated boards for a couple of reasons:

1) the time that you would spend populating 100 boards could be much better spent in CAD or some other aspect of design or parts production/sourcing

2) i imagine the board design will be somewhat customizable, which would make mass production particularly hard

3) extra cost. unless you're planning on stuffing more than 100 boards at once and you have an army of low-paid elves to stuff boards, the builder will probably end up spending less to populate the board than he would if he were paying you for parts + labor.

4) i imagine you won't be able to test the board without switches, and the switches will clearly be the most customized/contentious/user populated part of the keyboard.

anyway, long story short, as long as the board doesn't require superhuman skill to populate, i think DIY is likely to be the best case, not worst case. i could be completely wrong about this, but this is my impression, again, from DIY audio (although do note that nearly every component in an audio circuit is highly contentious)

finally, keep in mind that the individual parts you design and produce won't necessarily be used in exactly the way or configuration that you imagine. some people will want to use your board in their own chassis, (and v.v.!).

All good points. You're right, given the switch and layout variations (6 atm) it's probably too expensive to have it factory produced.

When I said worst case I was under the impression that most people do not want to solder. So it's more a matter of statistics. We can always set up a poll later.

And there's no reason why unpopulated pcbs (and cases) shouldn't be available.

Quote from: WhiteRice;266445
lowpoly,

This is for the 61 ANSI. I used this picture as a base of reference.

[pic]

For the ISO the price wouldn't change too much.

Signature wanted to let me know that they do not have the tooling for domed keys. If they made the swirl key it would be flat profiled.

I need to clear up some information about stabilizers, and I will get back to you.

Thank you!

That's a lot more than Chimera's quote (http://geekhack.org/showpost.php?p=197816&postcount=58). It looked like it was for a full alpha set but I probably missed something due to bad reading. Any hidden cost killers in the Miniguru layout?

Swirl key: I think flat would be better anyway.

I went through Chimera's thread again and it looks like SP has no stabilizers.
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: WhiteRice on Tue, 21 December 2010, 10:46:51
Quote from: lowpoly;266638

Thank you!

That's a lot more than Chimera's quote (http://geekhack.org/showpost.php?p=197816&postcount=58). It looked like it was for a full alpha set but I probably missed something due to bad reading. Any hidden cost killers in the Miniguru layout?

Swirl key: I think flat would be better anyway.

I went through Chimera's thread again and it looks like SP has no stabilizers.


The larger keys tend to cost more, but there are no large outliers. I believe that the tool costs for the swirl key were built into the price of each set.

Signature does not provide stabilizers. I will ask to see if they have any connections though.
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: turbocharged on Tue, 21 December 2010, 11:20:09
DIY kit would be incredible. I'm definitely in if it is a DIY kit...save a bit of money and have some fun.
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: lowpoly on Tue, 21 December 2010, 12:33:35
^^^ Thanks!

Quote from: WhiteRice;266729
The larger keys tend to cost more, but there are no large outliers. I believe that the tool costs for the swirl key were built into the price of each set.

Maybe it's the cut-outs for the pointing stick (G, H, B, space) too? I had planned to do these myself (but failed to say so).

I'll ask Chimera what exactly his quote was for.

Quote from: WhiteRice;266729
Signature does not provide stabilizers. I will ask to see if they have any connections though.

Good idea!
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: zmurf on Tue, 21 December 2010, 14:33:06
Will you try to make an ISO keyboard kit also? Or will there only be an ANSI style board?
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: lowpoly on Tue, 21 December 2010, 16:33:34
I'll try to make both ANSI and ISO versions of the pcb. Not sure yet if this can be done in a single pcb. Problably not. Too many drill holes in the same space for left shift for ex. Altough I think I've seen something like that here lately.
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: lowpoly on Tue, 21 December 2010, 16:34:04
I'll try to make both ANSI and ISO versions of the pcb. Not sure yet if this can be done in a single pcb. Problably not. Too many drill holes in the same space for left shift for ex. Although I think I've seen something like that here lately.
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: PikachuDX on Tue, 21 December 2010, 18:38:36
R3EoDdWXb,!AKq_@zKrDJ=;dgxfSiuI-Emh&d-xy)%pGp-rGc@
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: turbocharged on Tue, 21 December 2010, 19:38:57
What switches are you thinking of going with? Possible option or do you plan on just buying one switch in uber-bulk?
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: victheslik on Wed, 22 December 2010, 00:31:22
-
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: lowpoly on Wed, 22 December 2010, 05:27:47
Quote from: PikachuDX;266935
I'd love one with a UK layout.. :<
Should be possible one way or the other.

Quote from: turbocharged;266977
What switches are you thinking of going with? Possible option or do you plan on just buying one switch in uber-bulk?

Cherry MOQ for switches is 1000. The common switches should be possible (and cheaper if I buy them).

Quote from: victheslik;267084
I don't know if anyone posted this yet, but good job on getting on OTD again ;D

http://www.otd.kr/bbs/board.php?bo_table=product_news&wr_id=2301

Keep up the good working :) ~

-Victheslik

Thanks for the link. :-)

Of course, Google translate fails again. I wish I could read Korean. I think I get the general direction though.

Reminds me that I got new mail from distributors. The pace of this thread suggests that everything is well on the way. However, it will take several months from now as I have to learn some new stuff. Nothing too complex I hope but it will take its time. Also, I have yet to finish the M0110 mod. That's only a matter of a few days though and I plan to use it as a Teensy test environment.
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: zmurf on Wed, 22 December 2010, 07:29:02
I don't care about how the key caps looks, which switches that will be used or how long it takes before you start selling these kits. I'll buy anyway...

... or well... If there only is an ANSI version I'll will probably buy... if there is an ISO version I will definitely buy! :)
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: calavera on Thu, 23 December 2010, 00:26:39
Great news indeed!! :D
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: gore on Thu, 23 December 2010, 18:02:45
Really looking forward to this! Looked at any start up helps like this http://www.kickstarter.com/ ?
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: lowpoly on Thu, 23 December 2010, 19:27:50
Kickstarter won't work as I'm not U.S. based. :-(
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: jaynoon on Fri, 24 December 2010, 12:41:58
Hurrah for hope!

I would definitely be interested in buying the kit.

EDIT: User error, didn't realize there were 5 more pages in the thread. Disregard my comment about the pointing stick.
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: SirClickAlot on Tue, 28 December 2010, 12:52:00
Yes, Y E S, YES!

I am very glad to see the miniguru has risen out of the ashes!

In whatever form it will be in, I am sure to be buying one. Excellent stuff...

Regards.
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: troll on Thu, 30 December 2010, 16:04:24
Hi, geekhackers :)
I only registered because of this thread. These are awesome news!
My wishlist would be:
- Clicky keys
- Blank keycaps (US / British layout would be also ok)
- Stick or no stick - don't care
- DIY / Soldering: Yes, please :)
- Electronics: Don't care if self-developed or not as long as everything works well
- Price max. 250 US$$

Hey, and thanks for your fantastic (and currently nonpaid, I guess) work guys! I bet you could easily sell > 500 of those keyboards. Maybe think about some "pre-order form" with an advance payment. Should be useful to get an idea about how many people are really interested in getting one.
I wish you all the best!
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: jeff on Sat, 01 January 2011, 03:11:22
I want this.  The size, trackpoint, and option for awesome switches are perfect.  If I may make a single suggestion it would be to offer a keycap for the control/caps lock key that's flat all the way across.

I think I'd be able to deal with a pretty steep price for this.  If I have to become reasonably good at soldering, then so be it.

Bring it on!
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: turbocharged on Sat, 01 January 2011, 22:23:24
Another question that is probably unanswerable...do you have a remote time frame that you are trying to have this project completed by?
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: lowpoly on Wed, 05 January 2011, 10:06:49
Thanks for the comments.

Quote from: turbocharged;271857
Another question that is probably unanswerable...do you have a remote time frame that you are trying to have this project completed by?

I want to ship a kit in 2011. There'll be no new deadline though. I don't want to miss one again.

Finally finished my blank keycaps:

(http://www.guru-board.com/pics/miniguru_blank.jpg)

This was a set with symbols which I hand-sanded away. First using 180grit, then 600grit with water. 600 seems to be too fine, it gets glossy where scratched. Looks great when new though.
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: kidchunks on Wed, 05 January 2011, 13:26:02
Quote from: lowpoly;273474
Thanks for the comments.


I want to ship a kit in 2011. There'll be no new deadline though. I don't want to miss one again.

Finally finished my blank keycaps:

Show Image
(http://www.guru-board.com/pics/miniguru_blank.jpg)


This was a set with symbols which I hand-sanded away. First using 180grit, then 600grit with water. 600 seems to be too fine, it gets glossy where scratched. Looks great when new though.


One word...SEXY!

How long did the sanding take?
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: lowpoly on Wed, 05 January 2011, 13:46:40
Quote from: kidchunks;273554
How long did the sanding take?

Several hours.
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: Broncosoozie on Wed, 05 January 2011, 13:58:59
Quote from: kalrykh;273555
I'll have to second that.  That's hot.


I don't think there is anyone who wouldn't second that.

Awesome work, lowpoly! :D
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: gilgam on Mon, 10 January 2011, 13:51:30
You can rely on me for buying one, but no soldering, even if i pay more.
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: flooberjobby on Thu, 13 January 2011, 10:19:27
Sign me up for at least one, maybe more. With Cherry Red MX with Black and red color scheme.
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: Vittra on Fri, 14 January 2011, 13:32:17
Miniguru + Cherry MX Red = Want. Want NOW.

I'd definitely purchase one. :dance:
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: v193r on Sat, 15 January 2011, 00:05:49
the world is on one man's shoulders: lowpoly.
We all want your gift to mankind. are we not worthy?
Srsly, id really like a fully programmable keyboard, with are compact layout, pointing stick and cherry browns or reds.
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: cyclonechuah on Sat, 15 January 2011, 11:14:23
hello, lowpoly. i would definately love to purchase one of those lovely miniguru keyboard. As long as if it's affordable by me. =)

For my opinion.
- Cherry MX switch, i don't really care about which color, but as long as all MX switch are available us, it is better right? I personally would like Cherry MX Red or Black thou.
- US Layout would be better for majority.
- For Pointing Stick, i don't really care for this thou, but extra functions is better than none, thou i hope this won't increase the price too much.


Personally i don't really understand Soldering, If i choose No Soldering, does that means the keyboard will comes with all parts Soldered without the need for us to solder the keyboard ourselves?

Prefer the keyboard to comes in completed so we can use directly, and then think about DIY the keyboard and add on the other stuff ourselves.
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: rickysio on Sat, 15 January 2011, 12:22:51
Going to be very interested... ;)
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: DanGWanG on Mon, 17 January 2011, 11:13:39
Just spent the last 2 hours reading all 51 pages.

I'm in for one, no matter the price.
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: TexasFlood on Mon, 17 January 2011, 11:17:38
I'm sure that I'll probably bite.
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: raeb on Mon, 17 January 2011, 22:19:26
I've stalked this forum without an account for far too long.  I created one today, just so I may say that I'm in.
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: keyboardlover on Tue, 18 January 2011, 06:05:40
Quote from: raeb;280175
I've stalked this forum without an account for far too long.  I created one today, just so I may say that I'm in.


Nice, lol. Welcome to GeekHack!

Edit: Hmm I might be interested. Will the soldering be done for us if we pay extra?
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: hemflit on Tue, 18 January 2011, 10:57:22
Just chiming in with another "I only found out about this forum through news about this keyboard". I'm so happy to see it rise again.

In all honesty, I'm a cheap bastard and given how the future looks right now, the kit will probably be beyond my budget. But just knowing that this insanely cool project has been led to completion will make me giddy with happiness.


Just as a point of curiosity, have you considered putting in two trackpoints? Say, one between H-J-N and and the other between F-G-V? One for pointing, the other for scrolling (or whatever the software maps axes 3 and 4 to).

Good luck!
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: raeb on Tue, 18 January 2011, 12:51:44
Thanks keyboardlover  :)

Also, if it makes a difference I wouldn't mind soldering!  I get myself into enough trouble tearing things apart anyways.

hemflit, this may/may not help but if you don't want to leave the keyboard for scrolling then at least for web browsers you can get keyboard bindings so you may navigate pages without leaving the home row.  I currently use google chrome with the vimium plugin and it's wonderful; when the website itself doesn't get in the way.

Although a scrolling type thing would be pretty slick.
Title: I want this to be a real product
Post by: xbla0x on Wed, 19 January 2011, 07:16:35
Hey lowpoly, I live in the US, and there has GOT to be a large enough market to make this into a real product. If Das Keyboard can sell well enough, how could this one not?

Let's chat man, I wanna figure out how to make this into a real product. Let me know if there is any way I can help. I'm sure we can find some vc's/use kick starter to get this going.
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: urlwolf on Wed, 19 January 2011, 13:15:03
I agree, if you get into this keyboard some kind of scrolling tool, ideally something like the logitech hyperscroll wheel... well, you are in a whole different game. No need to touch a mouse, ever.
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: hemflit on Wed, 19 January 2011, 16:46:48
Quote from: raeb;280512
hemflit, this may/may not help but if you don't want to leave the keyboard for scrolling then at least for web browsers you can get keyboard bindings so you may navigate pages without leaving the home row.


Thanks Raeb. It's not exactly that I have a particular scrolling problem that I want this keyboard to solve; certainly with programmable firmware anyone could make it, say, swirl button + trackpoint motion = scrolling, or something like that. it's just that it occurred to me two trackpoints for two index fingers might possibly be "kinda nifty" for a 100%-home-row use case, so I wanted to throw that out in the open :)
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: worminater on Wed, 19 January 2011, 18:07:54
If this was under 200 dollars; and had a method of scrolling without software (linux compatible basically) i would buy it in a heartbeat...


above 200? I'd be tempted still and might have to hide the CC bill for the month...
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: mrsone on Thu, 20 January 2011, 04:01:32
If you could bring the Miniguru back all my wildest dreams would come true! I could get the compact layout of the HHKB without selling my organs to get it! This is exciting news indeed!
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: Sam on Thu, 20 January 2011, 04:11:08
Don't get your hopes up too high.  While I cannot speak for Lowpoly, I know from personal experience that making your own stuff such as this is quite expensive.  Major keyboard companies have the advantage of spreading out the development/tooling costs over hundreds of thousands or more units.  Not to mention reduced component costs for ordering/producing them in mass.  For a small quantity run such as this, I'd be quite surprised if the cost came in under what a new HHKB goes for.  Of course I'd be pleasantly surprised if I was wrong.
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: lowpoly on Thu, 20 January 2011, 06:10:24
Thanks for the replies and welcome to the new members. :-)

I try not to answer after every single post because that would clutter the thread but it looks like I waited a bit too long.

Quote from: cyclonechuah;279016
Personally i don't really understand Soldering, If i choose No Soldering, does that means the keyboard will comes with all parts Soldered without the need for us to solder the keyboard ourselves?

Prefer the keyboard to comes in completed so we can use directly, and then think about DIY the keyboard and add on the other stuff ourselves.

There will be at least some minor assembly to do. Doing a kit has other advantages beside lower cost. EMI testing for example.

Quote from: DanGWanG;279886
Just spent the last 2 hours reading all 51 pages.

I'm in for one, no matter the price.

Took me over a year to read those. :-)

Quote from: keyboardlover;280282
Edit: Hmm I might be interested. Will the soldering be done for us if we pay extra?

I cannot predict if I will get this organised. Maybe someone will step forward and do assembly for some compensation.

Quote from: xbla0x;280975
Hey lowpoly, I live in the US, and there has GOT to be a large enough market to make this into a real product. If Das Keyboard can sell well enough, how could this one not?

Let's chat man, I wanna figure out how to make this into a real product. Let me know if there is any way I can help. I'm sure we can find some vc's/use kick starter to get this going.

There are already people who may provide some basic funding (more can't hurt though). For VCs the kit version is too small and mass production won't work. I can't use kickstarter as I'm not US-based.

Quote from: urlwolf;281170
I agree, if you get into this keyboard some kind of scrolling tool, ideally something like the logitech hyperscroll wheel... well, you are in a whole different game. No need to touch a mouse, ever.

In Firefox there's Scrollbar Anywhere which uses the right mouse button. I have to stay with the pointing stick for now.

Quote from: hemflit;281363
Thanks Raeb. It's not exactly that I have a particular scrolling problem that I want this keyboard to solve; certainly with programmable firmware anyone could make it, say, swirl button + trackpoint motion = scrolling, or something like that. it's just that it occurred to me two trackpoints for two index fingers might possibly be "kinda nifty" for a 100%-home-row use case, so I wanted to throw that out in the open :)

True, with the Teensy, any button can become a mouse button.

Quote from: Sam;281633
For a small quantity run such as this, I'd be quite surprised if the cost came in under what a new HHKB goes for.

I'd be surprised too.

Anyway, my plan was to finish the pcb, then do the case construction. However, I had a look at my local CNC forum and have seen some crazy prices for custom machined parts. So I'm not going to wait any longer with the case because another kill criterium may be waiting here.

With the pcb, I'm going to use Kicad, which is open source. Still trying to get the hang of it and I have to start with custom parts. I think I'll try the 4 layer pcb with an individual led matrix on a different layer for the first release (I'm still surprised nobody responded to this). While this looks a bit overwhelming to me at the moment, it's just a switch pcb after all. It can't be that difficult.
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: Half-Saint on Thu, 20 January 2011, 06:34:50
Theoretically it would be enough, if you did the PCB and gave us a list of electrical components needed to assemble a working board (controller, resistors, diodes etc.). PCB mounted Cherry switches would do the trick nicely. I'd be more than happy to assemble (solder) a few boards as long as it doesn't involve SMD soldering :)

Cheers
SainT
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: lowpoly on Thu, 20 January 2011, 09:18:17
The controller (Teensy) will not be on the switch pcb. There'll be only switches, diodes, pins and probably a pointing stick connector. I have yet to figure this one out. The pointing stick needs an industrial ribbon cable and the necessary connector will most likely be SMD. So, one SMD part at max. The connector and cable may not even be available in small quantities.
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: Superfluous Parentheses on Thu, 20 January 2011, 13:22:21
Quote from: lowpoly;281643
With the pcb, I'm going to use Kicad, which is open source. Still trying to get the hang of it and I have to start with custom parts. I think I'll try the 4 layer pcb with an individual led matrix on a different layer for the first release (I'm still surprised nobody responded to this).


4 layer PCB? Does that make hand-soldering more difficult or not? I haven't done any soldering in years, but I like this project.

Quote from: lowpoly;281691
The controller (Teensy) will not be on the switch pcb. There'll be only switches, diodes, pins and probably a pointing stick connector. I have yet to figure this one out. The pointing stick needs an industrial ribbon cable and the necessary connector will most likely be SMD. So, one SMD part at max. The connector and cable may not even be available in small quantities.


Oh, and that reminds me; some people may be interested in just the PCB and whatever SMD is required. I mean, they may want to create their own case out of some other material (though I admit aluminium is cool).
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: CeeSA on Thu, 20 January 2011, 13:40:56
perhaps its better to do this without the case. i would be happy with or without a case.
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: Ascaii on Thu, 20 January 2011, 14:23:13
Just a question...do you have a cad file for the case? I have someone i'd like to show it to.
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: lowpoly on Fri, 21 January 2011, 11:06:20
Quote from: Superfluous Parentheses;281786
4 layer PCB? Does that make hand-soldering more difficult or not?

I don't think so.

Quote from: CeeSA;281793
perhaps its better to do this without the case. i would be happy with or without a case.

Wouldn't be the Miniguru without a case. Selling pcbs without case shouldn't be a problem though.

Quote from: Ascaii;281813
Just a question...do you have a cad file for the case? I have someone i'd like to show it to.

I only have the 3D that can be seen on the website. It's not fully precise and lacks the interior construction. I'm working on it, it'll take some time. Maybe PM me your email just in case.
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: theferenc on Fri, 21 January 2011, 23:32:37
If it's a kit, and programmable, that means we can change the layout from ANSI to UNIX, does it not?
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: morffius on Tue, 25 January 2011, 10:32:17
I re-read this whole thread over the last few days. Awesome. I can't wait to get my soldering on and have this board!

PS: I've even converted my mother to a mechanical with an old cherry.
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: blueslobster on Tue, 25 January 2011, 13:52:49
Quote from: PikachuDX;266935
I'd love one with a UK layout.. :<


Quote from: lowpoly;267176
Should be possible one way or the other.[...]


How much individualism do you think is possible, concerning different layouts? When regarding the HHKB as your biggest competitor (even more so now, as the miniguru and the HHKB will have similar price tags), it would make sense, to offer a HHKB layout.
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: lowpoly on Mon, 31 January 2011, 05:27:16
Quote from: theferenc;282714
If it's a kit, and programmable, that means we can change the layout from ANSI to UNIX, does it not?
ANSI is a physical layout and UNIX a logical? But I think you can.

Quote from: blueslobster;284598
How much individualism do you think is possible, concerning different layouts? When regarding the HHKB as your biggest competitor (even more so now, as the miniguru and the HHKB will have similar price tags), it would make sense, to offer a HHKB layout.
With the mass production version I objected any deviations from the standard layout. Because it meant than a lot of people had to be converted to using a second layer and I thought that would be enough for a first step.

With the mini series I'm not as firm. If there are enough requests for a certain layout it should be possible.

Personally, I'm still with the standard layout because


Having that said, putting a small key at the right of right shift may be good. Replacing the right three modifiers in the bottom row with 4 small keys may be good either.

I don't think replacing the left three bottom row modifiers with 4 standard keys would be good for ex. because this would make the (thumb pressed) fn key smaller which is a vital key on this keyboard (same on the right side).

But I put this up for discussion.

Unrelated, I have little time lately. I thought January would give me some relief after a stressful December, but it didn't happen. Just to show that I haven't been sitting on my hands completely, here's a small test schematic done in KiCad. Had to do a custom part for the switch. All very easy yet. I'll finish the following steps to pcb with this test setup so I can avoid some pitfalls with complete parts (and I'm still not finished with the schematic manual):

(http://www.guru-board.com/pics/mx_2x2.png)
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: sudowork on Tue, 01 February 2011, 05:18:59
Watching this thread has got me all excited again. Can't wait to see your progress :D.
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: turbocharged on Tue, 01 February 2011, 06:25:50
So you are planning on using the Cherry switches that include a diode?

I know this is asking ALOT, but is there anyway we could get a jumper (resistor place holder) in the circuit before each switch, so that we could put LED's in place of the diodes in the switches?
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: Soarer on Tue, 01 February 2011, 07:13:01
That schematic shows an LED in each switch ;-)

But no resistors... what's the plan?
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: Lethal Squirrel on Tue, 01 February 2011, 08:00:28
I would seriously pay like $350 for that if they were on the market
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: noctua on Tue, 01 February 2011, 08:24:32
Quote from: Soarer;288184
That schematic shows an LED in each switch ;-)

But no resistors... what's the plan?



the LED's are self the resistor's ;-)
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: Soarer on Tue, 01 February 2011, 08:39:02
Quote from: noctua;288194
the LED's are self the resistor's ;-)


Oh right. I knew 5V LEDs with the resistor built in existed, but I thought the Cherry ones were the regular kind. Not that they have to be Cherry LEDs, of course :-)
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: lowpoly on Tue, 01 February 2011, 10:26:24
The switches (may) have LEDs, the 1N4148 rollover diodes are separate.

The LEDs are on a different matrix than the switches so they can be switched independently (every single one). With an 8x8 matrix for example. To get equal brightness regardless of the number of active LEDs in a row, pulsing should work. Provided the Teensy is fast enough for pulsing the LEDs, reading the switch matrix and the ps/2 pointing unit.

But of course, you got me here. ;-) My electronics knowledge is pratically non-existent. With the switch matrix this shouldn't be much of a problem. With the LEDs, well maybe.

Provided Signature Plastics can do double shot keys using transparent plastic for the symbols, it would be possible to


The 'board would still work without the fancy stuff so this would be optional.

Edit: AFAIK the built-in Cherry LEDs only come in ugly colors. Green, yellow, red, something like that.
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: sixty on Tue, 01 February 2011, 10:30:26
Quote from: lowpoly

Provided Signature Plastics can do double shot keys using transparent plastic for the symbols, it would be possible to


Sadly they can't.
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: lowpoly on Tue, 01 February 2011, 10:33:12
Quote from: sixty;288274
Sadly they can't.

F*ck, I thought I had seen transparent in both color rings.

Any more details on why not?

So I guess it's no LEDs then. :-(
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: itlnstln on Tue, 01 February 2011, 10:34:49
That might be why Deck/TG3 uses that convoluted keycap making process.  You might see if they have a somewhat translucent white plastic.
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: v193r on Tue, 01 February 2011, 11:56:45
any chance for nkro thru usb. it should be too hard using hasu's method.
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: blueslobster on Tue, 01 February 2011, 13:10:43
Quote from: lowpoly;287672
[...]
With the mini series I'm not as firm. If there are enough requests for a certain layout it should be possible.

Personally, I'm still with the standard layout because

  • standard Cherry keycaps will fit immediately, this may keep the cost of the kit down for some
  • I like the big backspace key
  • I really dislike enter and backspace being too close
  • with two additional layers there are more than 170 keys. If you want it all on layer 1 this may not be the right 'board for you ;-)


The HHKB does actually have one key less compared to the Miniguru (60 vs. 61). But as the Miniguru relies on two Swirl keys, those two should be added to the HHKB layout. This combined Miniguru-HHKB layout would have 62 keys.

Quote from: lowpoly;287672
Having that said, putting a small key at the right of right shift may be good. Replacing the right three modifiers in the bottom row with 4 small keys may be good either.

Whether a further Fn key is needed or not, I don't know. But placement directly besides the right shift key or as a 4th key in the bottom right corner seems fine.

Quote from: lowpoly;287672
I don't think replacing the left three bottom row modifiers with 4 standard keys would be good for ex. because this would make the (thumb pressed) fn key smaller which is a vital key on this keyboard (same on the right side).

But I put this up for discussion.[...]

Agree - 4 keys on the bottom left side would be too small.
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: bakageta on Tue, 01 February 2011, 15:06:19
Quote from: lowpoly;288280
F*ck, I thought I had seen transparent in both color rings.

Any more details on why not?

So I guess it's no LEDs then. :-(


I wouldn't rule out the LEDs... Even with opaque keycaps, the underglow effect can look pretty nice.
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: theferenc on Tue, 01 February 2011, 15:07:39
UNIX layout is not just logical. The main difference is that the space where the backspace key is in the ANSI layout is actually 2 keys (|\ and `~, left to right) in the UNIX layout.

Everything else could just be remapped in software though. This is actually the primary reason that I object so strongly when anyone makes stupid "HHKB killer" comments about a keyboard with a 2-wide backspace key in the upper right corner.

Edit: fixed stupid typo.
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: blueslobster on Tue, 01 February 2011, 15:42:17
Quote from: theferenc;288452
UNIX layout is not just logical. The main difference is that the space where the backspace key is in the ANSI layout is actually 2 keys (|\ and `~, left to right) in the UNIX layout.

Everything else could just be remapped in software though. This is actually the primary reason that I object so strongly when anyone makes stupid "HHKB killer" comments about a keyboard with a 2-wide backspace key in the upper right corner.[...]


You cannot imitate every layout by remapping. Sometimes the position of certain keys also is very important.
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: Lethal Squirrel on Wed, 02 February 2011, 15:59:14
That thing looks so freakin legit! I thought it was a real factory made keyboard at first. I looked at the logo and thought, hmm i've never heard of that brand. then I read a little and was pretty shocked that it was home made!
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: theferenc on Sat, 05 February 2011, 09:01:17
Quote from: blueslobster;288478
You cannot imitate every layout by remapping. Sometimes the position of certain keys also is very important.


I know. That was actually my point by my previous post. Hence the comment that there are physical differences, but everything else (i.e. not physical differences) can be remapped in software.

But yes, this is a point that people on this forum tend to miss. A lot.
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: runeazn on Sun, 06 February 2011, 04:51:53
i read trough 5 pages from page 45 and i still dont get what i get..

a DIY kit would be awesome and fun.
But i want to know what i get.

Also you are Germany operated :D?
means cheap shipping cost for me ?
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: Fishraper on Sun, 06 February 2011, 15:33:01
I'm totally in especially if I could pay extra for the soldering to be done already mainly because I don't trust myself at all to do it ; ; (I apologize for my fail)
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: lootbag on Sun, 06 February 2011, 21:46:01
I think I would take it upon myself to learn to solder properly if this kit actually became available.
It would be a good experience.
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: nikiwaibel on Tue, 15 February 2011, 16:33:08
HHKB is great, but a version with some sort of a mouse (stick) and buttons (i'd prefer 3 on unix and some sort of scrolling emulation -- buttons 4/5, 6/7) would be genious. glowing keys -- no matter, if with ascii characters or sthg else (klingon?) -- could be amazing.

if there are any existing schematics / PCBs already, what about releasing them under a openhardware license and enable distributed development somehow?

https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Open-source_hardware
https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/TAPR_Open_Hardware_License
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: heedpantsnow on Fri, 04 March 2011, 07:48:38
Just wanted to say that I would be in for 2 if they are less than US$200 each.  I love stuff like this.
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: runeazn on Tue, 08 March 2011, 16:00:26
i would like to know the very rough estimated price in hundreds.
as it may change my decision to buy a majestouch 2 or not :/
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: Hoolala on Thu, 24 March 2011, 19:41:02
I registered solely for this thread. Knowing that the mass production of Miniguru was cancelled really made me sad. Now I am so glad to see this project has come back alive again.

I think what makes Miniguru so unique is the tracking point, so count me in as long as the final version has it. I also want 3 more spare tracking point units if possible. I will prefer MX Brown switches.

IMHO, it might be good to separate the matrix board from the controller and connect them with some sort of cable, so we can reuse/redesign the layout of the keyboard in the future. Also, it help protect the controller when we solder the switches. (Or is this already done, sorry this thread is way too long)

BTW, lowpoly, you can try TAOBAO.com for small components like connectors, etc. If you need a translator, just please PM me.
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: keyboardlover on Thu, 24 March 2011, 19:44:24
Welcome to GeekHack!
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: Hoolala on Thu, 24 March 2011, 19:52:05
Quote from: keyboardlover;318048
Welcome to GeekHack!


Thanks! I drink Lavazza regularly and frequently :)
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: keyboardlover on Thu, 24 March 2011, 19:57:46
Nice! Lavazza rocks =)

I have a set of their cappuccino mugs.
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: Hoolala on Thu, 24 March 2011, 21:47:44
Quote from: keyboardlover;318059
Nice! Lavazza rocks =)

I have a set of their cappuccino mugs.


Just have had two cups of espresso out of my Bialetti Brikka :) It is a really good every-day coffee, very refreshing. Anyway, I don't want to get this thread off topic.

It seems Lowpoly hasn't got back to this thread for some days, just hope everything is going fine.

I think we need to think about the things that need to included in the kit to be shipped.
1. First of all, I don't think getting the switches is that big a problem. We can at least always get them from the old keyboards. The red is somehow hard to source though, but we can always put the springs from the blues to the blacks. Come on, we are modders.
2. Different layout is not that big a problem, as long as the PCBs for each/the major layout(s) is/are provided, we can always solder the switches and remap the keys, given that the keyboard is programmable, may take some time though, but different layout configuration can be published for downloading. I personally would prefer a UK or at least ANSI.
3. The following components are relatively hard to source and therefore need to be ordered.
 a) Switches with LEDs
 b) The thumb pedals underneath the spacebar
 c) The keycaps are kind of hard to find if there are a lot of non-standard ones in the final design. Otherwise they are not so big a problem.
 d) The bottom shell/support
 e) The tracking point unit. I think this is the most important one. Otherwise there are some other options out there.

Therefore, we can see the core of this project is really the design of the PCB and the controller plus the key mapping software on the PC.

I think we'd better take a poll at some point down the road to see how many people are interested and what options should be provided. Maybe after we circulate the message that Miniguru is back alive around the world.

Hope that I have not offended anyone. Any comments are welcome.
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: Hoolala on Thu, 24 March 2011, 22:04:43
Quote from: ripster;318147
What are you proposing again Lowpoly do?  I figure he'll do what he wants to do.


I am sure it is more like/back to Lowpoly's personal project now, so I am actually not proposing new stuff, I am trying to help shrink down the number of the proposals.
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: Hoolala on Fri, 25 March 2011, 07:14:04
Quote from: ripster;318155
I'd say post #774 is a tad late for that.


Well, I started reading this thread last year, and had just got here last night. I blame my bad English.
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: pantarhei on Wed, 06 April 2011, 14:07:49
Any more specific estimates on when a mini series or a kit will be available? Mini series would be awesome, but a kit will be bought as well. :)

Are there any more detailed reasons why the production of keyboard was canceled? Really like to have my hands on one of these once a day.

Greetings from Germany.
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: daerid on Wed, 06 April 2011, 16:39:12
Oh hellz yeah. I remember being super stoked about the Mini-Guru board last year. I would gladly pay HHKB prices for one of these kits.

Hell, really all I want is that case! I can put together the rest myself. I'd hack apart my Das Keyboard for this!
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: pantarhei on Thu, 07 April 2011, 13:30:56
Quote from: ripster;325742
Willkommen Geekhack!

Or something like that.


Thx a lot.  I would say "Willkommen bei Geekhack!". But nearly perfect as you can see. :)
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: evera on Wed, 13 April 2011, 02:37:29
I know that I'm a bit after the great interest spike, but I'm still in for 2 (non-solder). This is of great interest to me! :) I hope you do well in your endeavors!

(I also love the colors)
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: milo88 on Mon, 18 April 2011, 09:16:45
Hello forum ;)
I hope this keyboard makes it into production, and I would gladly preorder to show my support.
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: Tiigon on Sat, 23 April 2011, 07:04:57
Hello GeekHack :)
I'm interested in getting one of these keyboards, if the price isn't too high (<€200).
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: sndstrm on Sat, 23 April 2011, 07:17:05
Quote from: ripster;318146
I tune to tiger stripes to know if I have it all dialed in right periodically with a naked portafilter.
Show Image
(http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4110/5061387982_e8c8ef30d0_z.jpg)

 
That glass is awesome.  I like how it has the measurement for a double ristretto.  My fav!
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: Pylon on Sat, 23 April 2011, 09:03:25
Someone posted this link to a Trackpoint controller in another thread. Might be useful.
http://www.sprintek.com/products/SK7100.aspx
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: sndstrm on Sat, 23 April 2011, 09:39:12
Quote from: ripster;336115

Anyway, since you bring up coffee here's a nice pour.   I always aim for Tiger Stripes.  4 days after roasting is DA BEST!


I lean more to a leopard print myself.  I dont have a home machine though.  What machine do you have?  Perhaps some custom Geek Hack Tampers need to be pursued.
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: sndstrm on Sat, 23 April 2011, 09:49:49
I do pour over but in all honesty I cant tell a difference in the quality between that and the type of coffee machine I use (a $10 severin).  A filter is a filter IMHO.  Now press, that is another story...
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: sordna on Sat, 23 April 2011, 12:16:40
Whipms. Turkish coffee, grounds and all in your cup is the real experience. Doesn't need expensive equipment either, just a $5 little pot. I wonder why no coffee shops do it in the US, besides doing it yourself, you can only get it at middle-eastern restaurants.
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: kackburt on Sun, 24 April 2011, 03:05:16
I would definitely buy one, love my ThinkPad W500 :D
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: keyboardlover on Sun, 24 April 2011, 08:37:08
ThinkPad W500's rock!!
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: Pylon on Sun, 24 April 2011, 13:30:18
I have a Dell Latitude E6410 and the Trackpoint rocks. Lenovo's implementation is better from trying Thinkpads in stores, but this one is still great.
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: Half-Saint on Tue, 03 May 2011, 04:51:03
I'd also be interested in a kit keyboard especially, if one was available for sale without switches :D
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: heedpantsnow on Tue, 03 May 2011, 12:02:05
Does ANYONE know what's going on with this?  I'm itching to drill a hole in the G/B/H intersection of my Poker and make my own if this project is dead.
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: heedpantsnow on Wed, 04 May 2011, 14:48:53
Quote from: ripster;341085
Have you seen Osama Bin Laden lately?

 
I hope you're not implying Lowpoly's sitting on a beach in Cuba with an umbrella drink in his hand laughing at the stupid Americans on CNN. :D
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: The Solutor on Wed, 04 May 2011, 15:40:17
Osama or not this keyboard looks awesome.

Very promising especially if available with the good vertical enter.

Just a suggestion to lowpoly: don't do the mistake KBC did with poker, the switches should be rotated with the led slot UP (and the cherry writing upside down), this will made any backlit mod easier.
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: milo88 on Sat, 07 May 2011, 13:02:50
Add wireless functionality 2.4ghz or bluetooth :D
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: sordna on Sat, 07 May 2011, 19:58:35
Pleeeease, no batteries!
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: lowpoly on Thu, 12 May 2011, 15:39:26
Sorry for abandoning this thread. Again. :(

I have two more personal projects that bug me and somewhen in Jan/Feb working at both those and the Miniguru got me into a deadlock. I decided then to finish these two first because they were supposed to be temporary. I thought I would be finished around April but I'm still working on them. The big one is coming to an end though, the other one is small (around 4 weeks).

Quote from: pantarhei;325736
Any more specific estimates on when a mini series or a kit will be available? Mini series would be awesome, but a kit will be bought as well. :)

Are there any more detailed reasons why the production of keyboard was canceled? Really like to have my hands on one of these once a day.\

No estimates, sorry. I won't give a new deadline which I will not meet again.
 
Quote from: ripster;341085
Just a suggestion to lowpoly: don't do the mistake KBC did with poker, the switches should be rotated with the led slot UP (and the cherry writing upside down), this will made any backlit mod easier.

Very good point.
 
Quote from: milo88;343023
Add wireless functionality 2.4ghz or bluetooth :D

No wireless for now. I don't think it will work with a metal case.
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: The Solutor on Thu, 12 May 2011, 15:56:22
Quote
Very good point.


Looks like Ripster has hacked the forum engine to have the credits of all good points :smile:
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: mondalaci on Sat, 04 June 2011, 11:38:40
lowpoly, In case you'll be back in the future here are some advice from a fellow keyboard builder that may help you.

First, consider 3D printing the case instead of milling it.  Shapeways (http://www.shapeways.com/) is the way to go.  There are various materials (http://www.shapeways.com/materials/) on your disposal with different structural, mechanical and optical characteristics, and of course with different costs.  You could even open your shop (http://www.shapeways.com/shops) there, upload the case design and sell the cases without you doing any additional work for some profit.  Customers could choose which material they prefer and order whatever they like.  It'd be also useful to try to Rit Dye some of the prints.  Even if you'll ultimately choose to mill the case, 3D printing is the choice of rapid prototyping technology for this kind of work to do some initial iterations and refine your model.

Second, I think that aiming for LED backlighting is overkill, especially considering your modest skills (no offense) in this specific area.  You should first try to design a 2-layer PCB first without LEDs.  gEDA and KiCad are free packages but they are very much limited.  Eagle is a semi-professional package providing acceptable productivity.  It's not cheap (http://www.cadsoftusa.com/prices.htm) for the size of your PCB but you may wanna find a friend who has it on his computer and use Eagle on his machine.  (I'm not advocating piracy, just trying to explain that using a low-end package will make your work very hard.)  As for PCB design software OrCAD and Altium Designer is the **** if you happen to have a small fortune, but those are probably overkill for a relatively simple PCB like yours.

Third, as for manufacturing the PCB, you could choose the same "upload your design, make others manufacture it and profit from it" approach as in the case of Shapeways shops with BatchPCB (http://batchpcb.com/).  If you choose this way then go through-hole for easy manual assembly but if you wanna get the PCBs assembled then using surface mount components would be more economical and in this case E-TekNet (http://e-teknet.com/) is the way to go but they don't provide you a shop because that wouldn't make much sense for individual orders considering the high setup costs of pick and place machines so you've gotta mass order in this case.

Fourth, you should use an AVR as the MCU with a USB core.  The ATmega*U* and AT90USB* family will work well for sure.  Online (http://www.avrfreaks.net/) and library (http://www.fourwalledcubicle.com/LUFA.php) support is great and you can do all kinds of fancy things with a general purpose MCU like that.  Reading (bit-banging) PS/2 signals (for the trackpoint) in an interrupt handler while communicating through USB is solvable with a single MCU.  Just make sure you breadboard your circuit before ordering any PCBs.  The Teensy (or any developer board that utilize the above MCUs) is good for breadboarding.  As these MCUs are only available in SMD packages you'll have to break them out (with a breakout board) if you wanna make a through-hole design for manual assembly.

Now to my questions:

Anyone knows where to get plate mountable Cherry stabilizers?

Where did you get the trackpad from and what's the price for various quantities?

PS.: If you have any questions, please PM me.  I won't watch this thread (or any threads on Geekhack) because vBulletin is a joke in this respect (and in general) and I surely won't webscrape Geekhack to provide RSS as I did with OCN (http://monda.hu/blog/2010/08/29/overclock-net-mechanical-keyboard-guide-atom-feed/).
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: bpiphany on Sat, 04 June 2011, 12:01:37
Quote from: mondalaci;355536
Anyone knows where to get plate mountable Cherry stabilizers?.

Mouser have them (http://se.mouser.com/Cherry-Electrical/Electromechanical/Switches/Switch-Hardware/_/N-5g2rZ1z0zlgh/), compare part numbers to cherry's data sheet (http://www.cherrycorp.com/english/switches/key/mx.htm). They provide free shipping if you spend enough, the amount seems to differ from country to country though. Searching for the cherry product id also turns up components not in stock. The minimum quantity might be high then though, I think, I never ordered anything from them not in stock...

I've been trying out both Eagle and KiCAD for designing keyboard PCBs and I thought KiCAD was plenty enough and easier to work with than Eagle. My experience with PCB design is very limited though. Here is my still sort of unfinished guide (http://geekhack.org/showwiki.php?title=Design+your+own+Teensy+keyboard+in+KiCAD+how-to+guide). I have a set of PCBs arriving on Tuesday from pcbwing.com (http://pcbwing.com).
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: mondalaci on Mon, 06 June 2011, 04:39:23
Quote from: PrinsValium;355553
Mouser have them (http://se.mouser.com/Cherry-Electrical/Electromechanical/Switches/Switch-Hardware/_/N-5g2rZ1z0zlgh/), compare part numbers to cherry's data sheet (http://www.cherrycorp.com/english/switches/key/mx.htm). They provide free shipping if you spend enough, the amount seems to differ from country to country though. Searching for the cherry product id also turns up components not in stock. The minimum quantity might be high then though, I think, I never ordered anything from them not in stock...


Out of the 7 results of the Mouser results page maybe 5 are relevant I believe.  Out of those 5 3 are not recommended for new designs.  Unfortunately I cannot tell for sure which product is what I'm looking for because only some of them have datasheets, but Mouser surely offers a limited choice considering all the different stabilizer lengths that the Cherry should offer.  I couldn't find the part numbers of the stabilizers on the Cherry data sheet.  As a minor issue, it's weird that these parts are only available through the Swedish interface of Mouser.

Quote from: PrinsValium;355553
I've been trying out both Eagle and KiCAD for designing keyboard PCBs and I thought KiCAD was plenty enough and easier to work with than Eagle. My experience with PCB design is very limited though. Here is my still sort of unfinished guide (http://geekhack.org/showwiki.php?title=Design+your+own+Teensy+keyboard+in+KiCAD+how-to+guide). I have a set of PCBs arriving on Tuesday from pcbwing.com (http://pcbwing.com).

 
Thanks, I've already read your guide and I think it rocks.  To be quote honest, I've only played with KiCad few minutes but it gave me the impression that it's not a serious design application or else more people would use it.  Also, I believe that gEDA is supposed to be more professional based on what I read.  Can KiCad do design rule checks like Eagle does?
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: bpiphany on Mon, 06 June 2011, 06:24:10
Thanks =)

KiCAD does check distance between tracks of different defined classes. I don't know if it can do distance to board edges and holes and things like that. For keyboard designing I would think it is fully enough at least.

(http://i56.tinypic.com/wuqpg3.jpg)
The search-fu is weak with you today me thinks... Here are the cherry codes, you want the ones "with frame". So for a 2x wide key that would be G99-0224, which they actually have in stock. If you search for the 3x wide one instead, on the US interface, you get this (http://www2.mouser.com/Search/Refine.aspx?Keyword=G99-0225). The 8x wide one g99-0226 (http://www2.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Cherry-Electrical/G99-0226/?qs=0WLLhGLuJYyNNuogHo9xbg%3d%3d) gives a more promising result (if you want 250 of them...).

The only difference between different width stabilizers is the bar length. If you have an 'A'-measure different than the specified, buying a longer one and cutting it down works. I don't know why they don't recommend some of them for new designs. If cherry have discontinued them or if it's just considered old fashioned...
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: mondalaci on Mon, 06 June 2011, 09:59:25
Thanks a lot for showing the relevant section of the datasheet, looks like this is exactly what I'm looking for.  Cutting down the stabilizer when needed sounds pretty good.  I hope Cherry doesn't plan to deprecate their stabilizers because I consider them better than Costar stabilizers.

I'm on my way to buy some, thanks!
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: hasu on Wed, 08 June 2011, 21:39:07
I found a very impressive mod today. And it must be interesting to you guys around here too.
I think he is a GH member but not so active. It's a shame.
Anyway it is a great job!

http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=zh-TW&u=http://aries.armake.com/1229.html
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: mSSM on Tue, 23 August 2011, 07:33:45
No update for almost 3 months. Is there anything new? I would love to hold this baby in my hands, even if I have to assemble it myself. :-)
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: lowpoly on Sun, 11 September 2011, 14:53:49
After the long break related to other unavoidable personal projects I have a hard time getting this back on track. I thought finishing the M0110 would renew my interest, but so far nothing. :(  I really have to force myself to play with Kicad which means it rarely happens.

Anyway, someone mentioned that the MX switches should be put upside down (no, not the wires pointing in the air...). Won't this interfere with keycaps? The MX is slanted at the front, like the keycap. Anybody tried this?

Quote from: mondalaci;355536
First, consider 3D printing the case instead of milling it.  Shapeways (http://www.shapeways.com/) is the way to go.  There are various materials (http://www.shapeways.com/materials/) on your disposal with different structural, mechanical and optical characteristics, and of course with different costs.  You could even open your shop (http://www.shapeways.com/shops) there, upload the case design and sell the cases without you doing any additional work for some profit.  Customers could choose which material they prefer and order whatever they like.  It'd be also useful to try to Rit Dye some of the prints.  Even if you'll ultimately choose to mill the case, 3D printing is the choice of rapid prototyping technology for this kind of work to do some initial iterations and refine your model.
There was a long 3D printing article in German c't magazine lately. I did a few calculations and found a 3D printed case to be quite expensive. A milled one may be expensive too, so 3D printing is not off the table. But for prototypes, I can manually mill it myself which is time consuming but cheap.

Quote from: mondalaci;355536
Second, I think that aiming for LED backlighting is overkill, especially considering your modest skills (no offense) in this specific area.  You should first try to design a 2-layer PCB first without LEDs.
True, no LEDs in version 1. Still, it might be good to put the switches rotated, see above.

Quote from: mondalaci;355536
gEDA and KiCad are free packages but they are very much limited.  Eagle is a semi-professional package providing acceptable productivity.  It's not cheap (http://www.cadsoftusa.com/prices.htm) for the size of your PCB but you may wanna find a friend who has it on his computer and use Eagle on his machine.  (I'm not advocating piracy, just trying to explain that using a low-end package will make your work very hard.)  As for PCB design software OrCAD and Altium Designer is the **** if you happen to have a small fortune, but those are probably overkill for a relatively simple PCB like yours.
Eagle is not cheap for the size we're talking about here. This would make it difficult for others to work on the design. Target (similar to Eagle) is priced by pins and better for a keyboard pcb. However, I figured most parts have to be done manually anyway, so KiCad will do. I also liked that KiCad said it supported Wings3D for the 3D representation of a part. And I had built the switches in Wings already (turned out is uses .wrl what can be written by almost any decent 3D package). Also there's already at least one successful KiCad project here in the mod forum, or even two.

Quote from: mondalaci;355536
Third, as for manufacturing the PCB, you could choose the same "upload your design, make others manufacture it and profit from it" approach as in the case of Shapeways shops with BatchPCB (http://batchpcb.com/).  If you choose this way then go through-hole for easy manual assembly but if you wanna get the PCBs assembled then using surface mount components would be more economical and in this case E-TekNet (http://e-teknet.com/) is the way to go but they don't provide you a shop because that wouldn't make much sense for individual orders considering the high setup costs of pick and place machines so you've gotta mass order in this case.
It will be through-hole.

Quote from: mondalaci;355536
Fourth, you should use an AVR as the MCU with a USB core.  The ATmega*U* and AT90USB* family will work well for sure.  Online (http://www.avrfreaks.net/) and library (http://www.fourwalledcubicle.com/LUFA.php) support is great and you can do all kinds of fancy things with a general purpose MCU like that.  Reading (bit-banging) PS/2 signals (for the trackpoint) in an interrupt handler while communicating through USB is solvable with a single MCU.  Just make sure you breadboard your circuit before ordering any PCBs.  The Teensy (or any developer board that utilize the above MCUs) is good for breadboarding.  As these MCUs are only available in SMD packages you'll have to break them out (with a breakout board) if you wanna make a through-hole design for manual assembly.
I want to use the Teensy. Programming is already done (including the Pointing Stick) and it is only $16.

Quote from: mondalaci;355536
Where did you get the trackpad from and what's the price for various quantities?
I'm not going to disclose this, sorry. I already put some strain on the distributor, so far for nothing.

Quote from: mondalaci;355536
PS.: If you have any questions, please PM me.
Thank you and thanks for writing that post.
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: heedpantsnow on Sun, 11 September 2011, 15:11:55
Sooo, there's hope in this getting produced?  Great!
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: ironman31 on Sun, 11 September 2011, 15:18:57
Glad to hear you're still interested in this.
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: sordna on Sun, 11 September 2011, 17:56:56
Lowpoly, I'm VERY interested in such a keyboard. I've been using mouskeys with my KBC Poker (I hold down the capslock to turn on the 3rd level shift, which I've xmodmap'd to a numpad, so I can move the pointer and do clicks) and it's a wonderful concept, being able to mouse around without leaving the home row.
The trackpoint is ideal for this of course... if you can add a 3rd button in the middle, to do middle-click (paste and other functions on linux) it would be just about perfect.
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: Soarer on Sun, 11 September 2011, 21:56:34
Glad to see this project isn't dead :-)

Quote from: lowpoly;414524
However, I figured most parts have to be done manually anyway, so KiCad will do. I also liked that KiCad said it supported Wings3D for the 3D representation of a part. And I had built the switches in Wings already (turned out is uses .wrl what can be written by almost any decent 3D package). Also there's already at least one successful KiCad project here in the mod forum, or even two.
KiCad is quite a good choice really, the file format is text so the fiddly stuff of positioning switches can be scripted (I used perl). My script and some symbols for Cherry switches etc can be found here (http://geekhack.org/showwiki.php?title=Island:16103&p=315184&viewfull=1#post315184), and more were posted by PrinsValium subsequently.
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: lowpoly on Mon, 12 September 2011, 07:19:51
Quote from: ironman31;414540
Glad to hear you're still interested in this.


Well, this is the 3rd and last try. :) If it stalls again I'll stop it. I have another non-keyboard related project on the horizon. This is a huge project so it's good there is something else that's stopping me from starting immediately. Maybe it will go away while I wait. ;)
 
Quote from: ripster;414644
You can reverse switch orientation on both high profile Filcos and low profile Cherries.  Just tried it.


Thank you. This would be the way to go then.
 
Quote from: Soarer;414686
KiCad is quite a good choice really, the file format is text so the fiddly stuff of positioning switches can be scripted (I used perl). My script and some symbols for Cherry switches etc can be found here (http://geekhack.org/showwiki.php?title=Island:16103&p=315184&viewfull=1#post315184), and more were posted by PrinsValium subsequently.

Awesowe, thank you.
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: cactux on Tue, 13 September 2011, 08:54:09
lowpoly,

I am very very impress with the concept and also the EXCELLENT JOB in putting everything together in your web site http://www.guru-board.com .

Please let me know if I can do something for you inorder to keep this project alive and at least get some do it your self kits.

I wont buy those Pokers and bad HHKB clones but yours man I am 1000% willing to get some

cheers
cactux
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: JBert on Tue, 13 September 2011, 15:52:34
This still beats the Poker hands down, due to the following:
Then again, I have taken apart my Poker keyboard and I have to admit that they used some clever tricks to make it cost-effective and yet a rather stable keyboard. Check webwit's review of it (http://deskthority.net/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=178) over at Deskthority for close-up pictures. I believe the ridges beneath the PCB don't support the PCB itself, rather they support the switches which have a round black protrusion coming through the PCB. This makes it pretty stable without a plate, and it makes the backside of the case more solid. As such, I'd wonder if one couldn't re-use the Poker's case and switches.

Obviously, this would mean that either we need two different kits for the guru or we'd need to pretty much redistribute the Poker. But again, the Poker comes with switches, some LEDs and a whole bunch of SMT diodes (which are easier to desolder compared to the controller IC or those tiny SMT resistors). So "if you can't beat them, join them".


EDIT: At any rate, great work so far. Your mods and prototypes really are nice, so having some kind of kit for a keyboard with trackpoint would be a plus, even more when production keyboards with trackpoints are a dying breed.
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: The Solutor on Thu, 15 September 2011, 14:04:13
Quote from: lowpoly;414524


Anyway, someone mentioned that the MX switches should be put upside down (no, not the wires pointing in the air...). Won't this interfere with keycaps? The MX is slanted at the front, like the keycap. Anybody tried this?


Was a my suggestion...

The keycap won't interfere, btw the led does if you reverse the switch but not the stabilizer, assuming a filco like stabilizer, no problem with the cherry style ones.
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: bpiphany on Thu, 15 September 2011, 16:34:27
Quote from: The Solutor;416705
Was a my suggestion...

The keycap won't interfere, btw the led does if you reverse the switch but not the stabilizer, assuming a filco like stabilizer, no problem with the cherry style ones.

I'm not sober enough to understand what you try to say. But Filco style stabilizers will interfere with the switches when they are put upside down. On non-stabilized keys the orientation probably won't matter at all.
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: The Solutor on Fri, 16 September 2011, 09:57:44
Quote from: PrinsValium;416792
I'm not sober enough to understand what you try to say. But Filco style stabilizers will interfere with the switches when they are put upside down. On non-stabilized keys the orientation probably won't matter at all.


Noooo, again !!! :doh:
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: cactux on Thu, 22 September 2011, 08:12:44
Does anyone knows what has been done and what need to be done in order to have a fully functional board?
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: TheProfosist on Mon, 17 October 2011, 15:28:36
I am very interested in at least 2 of these. Any word on how this is coming along?
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: Kira on Sun, 04 December 2011, 08:16:29
I'd be very interested in buying, and I have a lot of patience =)
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: zmurf on Thu, 08 December 2011, 07:27:53
It doesn't matter how long it takes or what the price will be. If this board reaches the market I'm going to buy one or two... I don't care if it comes preassembled or if I have to build it together myself IKEA style.... I want it!
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: Thion on Thu, 15 December 2011, 17:45:38
Same here... the only other Trackpoint-based KB has Scissors... if this project succeeds, it'd be a huge encouragement for the modders out there.
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: Msan on Mon, 19 December 2011, 04:31:31
If this thing doesn't go on sale in 2012 then it better be the end of the world. I can't withstand the wait anymore.
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: Input Nirvana on Mon, 19 December 2011, 14:00:30
Yea, Lowpoly's method of not being a douchebag and taking peoples money for a year or two is in stark contrast to the TE debacle. I notice how positive everyone is, supportive, and understanding as opposed to the TE fiasco.

Important comparisons.

Go Lowpoly!!!!!
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: sordna on Mon, 19 December 2011, 14:09:22
Wow, 84 pages of comments. People sooooo want this. Well, at least we have another project to be excited about, that *might* get provisions for a trackpoint:

http://geekhack.org/showthread.php?22780-Interest-Check-Custom-split-ergo-keyboard
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: Input Nirvana on Tue, 20 December 2011, 00:27:41
Lowpoly is the person that told me where to get the trackpoints I used for the Split Kinesis Mod, that I told Gator456 to use for the Datahand mod, and Ricercar and Bluecar for their Kinesis mods.

Big Lowpoly fan over here.

Go Team Lowpoly!!!!!
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: demik on Tue, 20 December 2011, 01:02:06
my heart beats a little faster every time i see this thread bumped
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: Nask on Wed, 28 December 2011, 21:37:40
Still waiting for this keyboard ...
I hope 2012 will be a better year.
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: iBro on Sat, 31 December 2011, 04:05:36
[video=youtube;sWLSKaNu3p0]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sWLSKaNu3p0&feature=relmfu[/video]

This is the first thing I thought of when I saw that beast of a keyboard.
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: dotancohen on Sun, 08 January 2012, 14:06:36
It is 2012 and I'm ready to buy! Seriously, this looks _almost_ like the keyboard of my dreams.

How many orders do you need to justify a production run? How many do you already have?
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: mr.greywater on Sun, 15 January 2012, 04:53:28
I really NEED this keyboard! Is there any chance that this keyboard will be finally produced?
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: TheProfosist on Thu, 19 January 2012, 15:44:43
its not looking like this is ever going to come together.
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: Rumudiez on Thu, 26 January 2012, 15:14:23
is this not the guru-board? i had never heard of the brand/keyboard before so i searched it on gh and this is the number one thread, yet in my skimming of all the pages nothing is ever mentioned... http://www.guru-board.com/ no?
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: TheProfosist on Thu, 26 January 2012, 15:25:57
Quote from: Rumudiez;499867
is this not the guru-board? i had never heard of the brand/keyboard before so i searched it on gh and this is the number one thread, yet in my skimming of all the pages nothing is ever mentioned... http://www.guru-board.com/ no?

nice find hopefully it comes into fruition!
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: sordna on Thu, 26 January 2012, 15:36:53
Yes, this thread is about the miniguru. Welcome to the club!
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: Gawkbasher on Thu, 26 January 2012, 15:42:04
Hoping this becomes a reality someday.  I love mini keyboards and I love trackpoints!

My first thought ever about the HHKB was "imagine if it had a trackpoint!"
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: sordna on Thu, 26 January 2012, 15:46:43
Yeah. I ended up adding extra keys and using mouskeys on my Kinesis instead. Works pretty well, I can move the pointer and click right around the home row. Best integrated mousing on a keyboard is the Fingerworks Touchstream though.
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: alaricljs on Thu, 26 January 2012, 15:48:53
Quote from: sordna;499923
...  is the Fingerworks Touchstream though.

You keep bringing this one up... think it's time to admit it's not a keyboard tho.  It's a multi-touch pad with an useful design printed on it and really good software behind it.  :)
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: sordna on Thu, 26 January 2012, 15:52:14
Yes, it's a pair of touchpads. The software (or actually firmware) is amazing, you don't even need any special drivers. It would be perfect if it somehow had sculpted keys, it's hard to type accurately as it is. I got one but it's collecting dust at the moment.
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: o2dazone on Thu, 26 January 2012, 17:07:23
Fingerworks is what the Apple touch technology is built off (Apple acquired them in 2005). I would totally try to snag a board, but every one I've seen on eBay goes for well over $800 :(
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: Thion on Fri, 27 January 2012, 09:11:14
lowpoly,
where did you get the Trackpoint from? IBM Spacesaver?

I'm currently thinking of modding a trackpoint into my noppoo very much the same way you did (at least i think so from looking at the photos).

Not sure about the Keys yet, maybe add some MX-Blues on the PCB where the Space Key supports are and reduce the size of the Space to 2 Units...

However, since i'm not particularly good with electronics, how hard was the modding of those? Just rip out the controller from the (Spacesaver?) and putting it in?

Or does anyone know where to get a trackpoint with a USB Controller?
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: jackpipe on Sun, 29 January 2012, 01:43:33
I wish the best of luck to lowpoly getting this stunning keyboard onto the market, I'm very interesting in being able to buy one.

Just of a couple of questions about the design:

I find with the trackpoint between ghb keys, I still have to move my hand away from the home position.  I can see why this design is used for all trackpoints, since it works for left- and right- handed users, but I'd much prefer a trackpoint between the hjn keys.  Are there any keyboards configured this way, does it even make sense, is it a possibility for the miniguru (I assume it's not an easy customization).

I love the floating style of the case, but on the other hand, I'm very interested in the portability of a keboard like this, and the deeper metal case is perhaps not the best in that regard.  What's inside the case, how deep is the minimum a keyboard like this could be?  I imagine a shallower case with pop-up feet would be more portable.


Slightly O/T, I also have some ideas for a keyboard I'd like to prototype, and also perhaps look at getting it produced in larger numbers.  
I'm looking at something more like the apple bluetooth keyboard, or the logitech ipad/android portable keyboards.
Perhaps not this forum's cup of tea, as it would be a chiclet/scissor board.
Are they any pointers on how to build/prototype this kind of thing, and then have them made?  I'm guessing there must be some keyboard makers who do custom designs?
I'm fairly clueless on the numbers too, what is the minimum run a manufacturer might consider, what kind of numbers are needed to break even, etc?  Anyone on here actually in the keyboard business?
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: hasu on Sun, 29 January 2012, 01:58:10
You cannot type h key if trackpoint locates between hjn.
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: jackpipe on Sun, 29 January 2012, 02:41:25
Fair point.  On both an HP laptop and a thinkpad with trackpoints, I can still type a g with my right hand, if I move my right hand across one key, but I can feel the trackpoint very slightly in the way when I do it.
It might be more problematic on a mechanical keyboard.

Another question, I see the pipe and backslash key is oversized, and the right shift is larger than the left.  Is there a good reason, or is this just convention?  It seems to me you'd save a few mm if the |\ key was normal size and the shift/backspace/return keys were slightly shorter.
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: laffindude on Sun, 29 January 2012, 03:51:27
They're standard sized Cherry keycaps. It isn't worth incurring the cost of making a new mold for those keys to save a few millimeter.
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: TheProfosist on Tue, 31 January 2012, 00:40:48
Leave the keyboard as standard as possibke as more people will be interested and if you move that trackpoint i think many people wouldnt want it as its fine where it is.
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: lowpoly on Tue, 31 January 2012, 12:17:02
Quote from: lowpoly;414809
Well, this is the 3rd and last try. :) If it stalls again I'll stop it. I have another non-keyboard related project on the horizon. This is a huge project so it's good there is something else that's stopping me from starting immediately. Maybe it will go away while I wait. ;)

This other project didn't make it. ;-)

Quote from: JBert;415663
As such, I'd wonder if one couldn't re-use the Poker's case and switches.

For historical reasons I won't actively support any Poker hybrids. :-)

Quote from: Rumudiez;499867
is this not the guru-board? i had never heard of the brand/keyboard before so i searched it on gh and this is the number one thread, yet in my skimming of all the pages nothing is ever mentioned... http://www.guru-board.com/ no?

I'm sure the name has been discussed here. Somewhere.

Quote from: Thion;500561
lowpoly,
where did you get the Trackpoint from? IBM Spacesaver?

I'm currently thinking of modding a trackpoint into my noppoo very much the same way you did (at least i think so from looking at the photos).

Not sure about the Keys yet, maybe add some MX-Blues on the PCB where the Space Key supports are and reduce the size of the Space to 2 Units...

However, since i'm not particularly good with electronics, how hard was the modding of those? Just rip out the controller from the (Spacesaver?) and putting it in?

Or does anyone know where to get a trackpoint with a USB Controller?

It's from an IBM 8923. The TP-controller is separate from the keyboard controller. It's an old 'board so the controller is huge. See pics on first page (it's the bigger one). I had to remove and re-solder some parts to make it fit.

Quote from: jackpipe;502170
What's inside the case, how deep is the minimum a keyboard like this could be?  I imagine a shallower case with pop-up feet would be more portable.

You can only make it smaller by designing a custom controller and put it on the pcb. As I plan to use the Teensy for the kit it has to have some space for this. Pointing needs space too.



Anybody familiar with flat cables and sockets? Would I need a ZIF socket for this?

The pointing stick comes with a Kyocera-ELCO 00 6222 008 101 800 connector. This one:

http://www.kyocera-elco.com/prdct/pdf/6222.pdf

It has 8 pins, 0.5mm-pitch.

I'd need an 8x 0.5mm FFC cable and an 8-pin ZIF connector, right?
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: alaricljs on Tue, 31 January 2012, 12:22:03
ZIF or LIF.   The ZIF is easier to connect the cable with, the LIF will be cheaper.
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: daerid on Tue, 31 January 2012, 12:44:22
So what exactly is the hold up on this project? Is it the trackpoint? The case? Or just low demand, high cost?
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: rainb1ood on Sat, 11 February 2012, 21:57:41
Kickstarter this project!
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: Cort on Sun, 12 February 2012, 06:44:49
Quote from: rainb1ood;512199
Kickstarter this project!
Would be perfect for Kickstarter (lower pledge for self-assemble kit, higher pledge for pre-assembled, etc.), but Kickstarter only takes US projects.
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: mkawa on Sun, 12 February 2012, 08:12:04
lowpoly: imo the only way this is only going to happen is if you open source the project.

i also don't really see why you would need a separate controller for the trackpoint. a teensy++ should be able to take input directly from the trackpoint device. it's hard to say though without knowing exactly what's coming out of the trackpoint. the point is there is enough expertise in the community to make this happen.
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: tsangan on Sun, 12 February 2012, 14:34:32
Quote from: rainb1ood;512199
Kickstarter this project!

definitely a great idea, ever since I saw this project I keep hoping that one day it will flourish because the design is just amazing
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: mkawa on Sun, 12 February 2012, 16:36:43
is the limiting factor here really money though? there's no design.
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: alaricljs on Sun, 12 February 2012, 16:39:14
time=money, designs take time.
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: jackpipe on Wed, 15 February 2012, 10:03:06
Kickstarter only do US projects?
What about this, about as far from a US project as you can get, http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1472956791/coworking-collaboration-and-coffee-in-cambodia
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: devouringone3 on Fri, 24 February 2012, 23:14:31
,
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: Cort on Sat, 25 February 2012, 13:00:40
Quote from: jackpipe;515150
Kickstarter only do US projects?
What about this, about as far from a US project as you can get, http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1472956791/coworking-collaboration-and-coffee-in-cambodia

Yeah, see here (http://www.kickstarter.com/proposals/guidelines?ref=proposal):
Quote

To be eligible to start a Kickstarter project, you need to satisfy the requirements of Amazon Payments:

    I am 18 years of age or older.
    I am a permanent US resident with a Social Security Number (or EIN).
    I have a US address, US bank account, and US state-issued ID (driver’s license).
    I have a major US credit or debit card.


I don't know how the Cambodia project did this, I guess the project starter is actually a US citizen.
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: J-P on Wed, 14 March 2012, 10:02:55
http://www.rockethub.com/ - anyone tried that? Greets Lowpoly, are you the same LP from EP / Sijun? http://www.indiegogo.com/ accepts international funding too (I think?)
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: J-P on Wed, 14 March 2012, 10:17:19
This one? (http://geekhack.org/showthread.php?6211-Online-Petition-to-Unicomp-Please-build-the-Mini) hmm... space saver.... you're imagining things again Ripster :)
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: J-P on Wed, 14 March 2012, 11:29:26
(http://i0.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/000/089/665/tumblr_l96b01l36p1qdhmifo1_500.jpg)
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: mondalaci on Wed, 14 March 2012, 11:32:04
Wow, looks like Kickstarter alternavites (https://www.google.com/search?q=kickstarter+alternatives) are mushrooming nowadays.
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: mondalaci on Wed, 14 March 2012, 11:50:54
Quote from: ripster;545800
Mondalaci - long time now see!

Thanks!  Nowadays I'm way too busy partly with testing and developing our custom developed mechanical keyboard which I'm typing on now.  It's truly encouraging to see these Kickstarter alternatives because that gives us, non-US folks an opportunity to bring our board to market through such a channel.

Quote from: ripster;545800
You were the FIRST to recognize that I was the Number One Keyboard Expert On the Planet and the Geekhack Community has confirmed your thesis!
http://geekhack.org/showthread.php?26781-Do-you-think-Ripster-is-the-1-Keyboard-Expert-on-Planet-Earth

Actually if Lowpoly had shipped this keyboard I might not have won.  ;-)

It's funny because just when I was typing my previous message I took a quick look at your avatar and I could recall me making that comment and assumed that this might be the case.  That being said, expert might not cut it.  "Raving lunatic" might be a more appropriate title, in a good sense, of course.  ;)
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: sordna on Wed, 14 March 2012, 12:07:09
Quote from: mondalaci;545814
Thanks!  Nowadays I'm way too busy partly with testing and developing our custom developed mechanical keyboard which I'm typing on now.

Can you share details or photos of this keyboard? Does it have a trackpoint? Keys in straight columns? Anything special about it?
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: uberben on Wed, 14 March 2012, 13:23:18
Quote from: J-P;545697
http://www.rockethub.com/ - anyone tried that? Greets Lowpoly, are you the same LP from EP / Sijun? http://www.indiegogo.com/ accepts international funding too (I think?)


http://www.ulule.com is another non-US option that has a model closer to that of kickstarter (ie. you only collect the money if you meet or exceede your goal).
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: mondalaci on Thu, 15 March 2012, 06:12:54
Quote from: sordna;545829
Can you share details or photos of this keyboard? Does it have a trackpoint? Keys in straight columns? Anything special about it?

I rather wouldn't want to share pictures and detailed info yet. MOD EDIT: please do not link to your product in the general forum.
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: sordna on Thu, 15 March 2012, 09:51:30
Ah, too bad, I might have given you improvement ideas... I've been modding my keyboards lately with ergonomic enhancements like palm keys, one of which I use to activate mousing on the keyboard, and there's other ideas I'll be implementing next.

http://geekhack.org/showwiki.php?title=Island:26579

[ATTACH=CONFIG]44268[/ATTACH]
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: mondalaci on Thu, 15 March 2012, 17:59:43
Quote from: sordna;546661
Ah, too bad, I might have given you improvement ideas... I've been modding my keyboards lately with ergonomic enhancements like palm keys, one of which I use to activate mousing on the keyboard, and there's other ideas I'll be implementing next.

http://geekhack.org/showwiki.php?title=Island:26579

(Attachment) 44268[/ATTACH]

Yours is a pretty impressive hack!  I'm thinking about putting together a rather small but very knowledgable mastermind group eventually to discuss such uber features before product release.  Whenever this will happen I'm thinking about making group members sign an NDA or something like that because even though we'll open the design 100% upon release we'd like to reap the fruits of our labor before others might start to clone it.  (Which is unlikely due to the niche nature of this board and the fact that it's considerably more expensive to manufacture than other boards because of its unique design, but still I worry a bit.)

Normally I hate NDAs but given that this board will be Open Hardware and the NDA will only last until release it shouldn't be so evil.  I'm wondering whether anyone would be interested in participating this way.
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: RiGS on Thu, 15 March 2012, 18:12:02
Haha, count me in.
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: sordna on Thu, 15 March 2012, 18:18:43
NDA across countries might be a bit hard, unless you are okay with people's public statement on Geekhack promising they won't disclose details, or doing the same in a private email exchange.
Personally I wouldn't worry since there are already proven ideas out there, and companies just don't bother implementing them... they keep the zig-zag key arrangement instead of straight columns for example, even though straight columns is way better (look how comfortable / fast it is for accountants to type on numpads).
Another example is this mini keyboard with trackpoint, look how many people have expressed strong interest (88 pages!!!) but nobody (not even small companies like KBC/KBT that do mini keyboards) has bothered.

So an expensive non-conventional keyboard is even less likely to be cloned.

Frankly, if your design convinces real companies (especially impactful ones like Apple and Microsoft) to make a true breakthrough in keyboard design, that would be a huge win for computer users around the world.
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: mkawa on Thu, 15 March 2012, 23:03:57
what? open hardware + NDA? what's the rationale here?

sordna: kbc has done the 60% aspect, and done it extremely well. i think the problem with the trackpoint is that you have to get the strain gauges from alps and they have some huge MOQ that makes poker-like volumes pretty much impossible; you pretty much have to be quanta and pumping out a few hundred units a minute to make it worth integrating into your design.

lowpoly alluded to something like this many pages ago.
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: mondalaci on Fri, 16 March 2012, 05:59:15
sordna:

You've raised some very good points!

Indeed, although I think our design is novel and superior in many respects it's unlikely to be copied.  I still worry because even though our board is different but not in a weird way so I consider it commercially viable.

As for the straight columns layout you've made me fall in love with this idea but I'm uncertain about its commercial viability because of its unusual look.  We could try that over time, though.  Are there any such boards created or any sketches drawn?  I'd also be curious to hear the experience of people using such a board.

mkawa:

The NDA would only be valid until the board gets released.  The reason is that we're talking about a fully-fledged, professionally designed product (which is very rare in the Open Hardware world) implementing some innovative ideas and having a very unique design.  I wanna empower users by going Open Source but I don't want anybody manufacturing the board before us.
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: Icarium on Fri, 16 March 2012, 06:36:42
Quote from: mondalaci;547663
As for the straight columns layout you've made me fall in love with this idea but I'm uncertain about its commercial viability because of its unusual look.  We could try that over time, though.  Are there any such boards created or any sketches drawn?  I'd also be curious to hear the experience of people using such a board.

The Kinesis Contoured and the Truly Ergonomic, the TypeMatrix is another...
Most people seem to love it.

EDIT: somebody should condense this discussion into the wiki site...it's gotten far too long to follow
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: sordna on Fri, 16 March 2012, 10:35:21
Quote from: mondalaci;547663
The NDA would only be valid until the board gets released.  The reason is that we're talking about a fully-fledged, professionally designed product (which is very rare in the Open Hardware world) implementing some innovative ideas and having a very unique design.  I wanna empower users by going Open Source but I don't want anybody manufacturing the board before us.

Dude, even in the remote chance they will want to copy your design, it takes real companies years to go from idea to shipping product. I honestly think you might be hurting your project if you prevent early ideas / information exchange from the keyboard enthusiast community. That's just my personal opinion of course, it's your project and your choice. As far as the straight columns go, apart from Kinesis / Truly Ergonomic, Typematrix, there is also the Datadesk Smartboard. The Fingerworks Touchstream also had straight columns, and of course many POS (Tipro, Access-IS, etc). Straight columns are really very easy to get used to (1-2 days at most) way way easier than a different layout like Dvorak or Colemak.
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: mondalaci on Fri, 16 March 2012, 10:36:59
Icarium: Thanks for the references.  Some very interesting keyboard designs with useful ideas of which I can definitely see myself embracing some eventually.
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: sordna on Fri, 16 March 2012, 11:07:30
Some more amazing projects that I WISH companies would copy. But they don't give a sh*t. It's always the same same same unergonomic and outdated shape/layout for the big guys. We need THESE becoming mainstream:

http://geekhack.org/showwiki.php?title=Island:6292     /     http://www.humblehacker.com/keyboard/

http://geekhack.org/showwiki.php?title=Island:26845

http://geekhack.org/showthread.php?22780-Interest-Check-Custom-split-ergo-keyboard
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: mondalaci on Sat, 17 March 2012, 16:25:29
sordna:

Thanks for the additional links!  I'll have a talk with my buddy (who's the mechanical engineer behind our project) about a more open information exchange towards the outside world.  Seeing how knowledgable you guys are it'd be certainly foolish to not to have a thorough conversation regarding possible improvements before product release.

Ripster:

Thanks for the advice on the font!
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: cactux on Tue, 20 March 2012, 07:49:37
Quote from: daerid;504344
So what exactly is the hold up on this project? Is it the trackpoint? The case? Or just low demand, high cost?

that is a very good question
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: daerid on Tue, 20 March 2012, 18:04:24
lowpoly (or somebody else) should draft up that case in some sort of CAD program.
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: net2522 on Sun, 25 March 2012, 23:33:41
Can, we bring this project up again(even op doesn't interest anymore)?
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: Input Nirvana on Mon, 26 March 2012, 01:55:59
Mondalaci:

Look forward to hearing/seeing whatever it is you have planned. There seems to be a fair interest in something other than the "typical range of keyboards" but the answer is not just a single alternative. That's the problem. Because of that you can't really achieve economy of scale, and the alternative costs too much (relative to the "typical range of keyboards"). There are already many alternatives of matrix, split, separated, modified layouts, super compact, etc. with most being well under a $150 price point. Let's face it, in the big picture, there is no way most people will ever spend more than $50 on a keyboard unless it also washes their clothes and feeds the dog.

I have no idea what it would take for a manufacturer (Dell, Apple, blah blah) to just make a simple matrix, angled (but flat) keyboard as the new "standard". Just about the easiest and most cost efficient "change" to the conventional keyboards of the day, yet keeping it as small as possible. But I guess that would be too radical. The Microsoft Natural is probably the closest mass-produced and well-known but it isn't even matrix, and it isn't flat. Dunno how many of those are sold, but I know huge companies supply them to employees with RSI issues so they don't get sued.

I would have a strong desire to market directly to cities, corporations, and similar to promote ergo typing/input devices. I have a background with this type of marketing, but not with keyboards of course! If there was a reasonable product/price/track record, I would recognize it in an instant and be forging an added chapter on my career! LOL

Anyhow, please be sure to use GH as a sounding board, or as a place to release 'teasers'!

P.S.- I saw your blog site and some of your keyboard requirements....click my sig and you'll see where I integrated a Trackpoint into the keywell of a Kinesis :)
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: Loligagger on Sat, 09 June 2012, 23:36:49
How difficult would it be to make a programmable 60% board without the trackpoint? Neither the pure or poker have a perfect fn layer layout but having it programmable would solve pretty much all problems.
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: bpiphany on Sun, 10 June 2012, 03:43:59
Quote from: Loligagger;610642
How difficult would it be to make a programmable 60% board without the trackpoint? Neither the pure or poker have a perfect fn layer layout but having it programmable would solve pretty much all problems.

Not particularly =) PCB designing, and controller programming, is pretty well understood around here by now. The less developed part is the case. Litster has been doing multilayer acrylic cases though, and a few very small runs of shapeway cases and the likes have been made as well.
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: mSSM on Sun, 10 June 2012, 13:26:12
Everytime this thread gets a bump, I get a heartattack.

I wonder - what's actually missing to get this project the final shove over the finish line? Designs are done, prototypes are produced; what's missing? Heck, I guess it should be even easy to have all those people producing custom aluminum cases for Pokers change the design a bit and make something fit the miniguru.

The miniguru is the very first mechanical keyboard I read about and the actual reason I came to Geekhack/got interested in mechanical keyboards.
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: Loligagger on Sun, 10 June 2012, 13:46:29
Quote from: PrinsValium;610705
Not particularly =) PCB designing, and controller programming, is pretty well understood around here by now. The less developed part is the case. Litster has been doing multilayer acrylic cases though, and a few very small runs of shapeway cases and the likes have been made as well.


Well the next question is what about making a pcb that would fit in current poker/pure cases? I'm sure a group buy for such a pcb would get a lot of interest (especially with how pokers have become harder to get nowadays).
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: bpiphany on Sun, 10 June 2012, 16:48:49
Quote from: Loligagger;610846
Well the next question is what about making a pcb that would fit in current poker/pure cases? I'm sure a group buy for such a pcb would get a lot of interest (especially with how pokers have become harder to get nowadays).


I'm slowly working on PCB that is meant to fit the Poker case as well as both the full size and tenkeyless Filcos. All controller parts will be located so that the unwanted parts of the PCB can be cut off. Not knowing how to design and program everything with surface mounted loose parts instead of a Teensy is what has been holding me back. Now I think I've got all that covered though.
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: Loligagger on Sun, 10 June 2012, 17:31:50
That's good to hear. What about things like the usb port location or dip switches? A programmable pcb that could drop into trebles poker case would get my money as soon as it would be available.
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: mSSM on Sun, 10 June 2012, 19:03:24
Quote from: Loligagger;610926
That's good to hear. What about things like the usb port location or dip switches? A programmable pcb that could drop into trebles poker case would get my money as soon as it would be available.

Same here; that above idea sounds amazing. Maybe one should open a different thread for this though (PrinsValium), so that people are aware of it? I don't think this here is the correct thread for this.
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: bpiphany on Mon, 11 June 2012, 03:00:49
Quote from: Loligagger;610926
That's good to hear. What about things like the usb port location or dip switches? A programmable pcb that could drop into trebles poker case would get my money as soon as it would be available.

The USB port for the Poker "section" would of course (be intended to) end up in the correct location. DIP switches are for losers who are not allowed to program their own keyboard to their liking. (And there are no I/O-pins left for them in my current design...) This project is still far away from being finished. For the Filco variants there needs to be mounting plates as well. And if it ends up in some sort of group buy I should probably find a partner over in the US for tax-technical issues =P Switches and other components might be held outside such a group buy to keep it lighter, but plates I feel should be included.

Quote from: mSSM;610951
Same here; that above idea sounds amazing. Maybe one should open a different thread for this though (PrinsValium), so that people are aware of it? I don't think this here is the correct thread for this.

There will be a thread when I get closer to some sort of final design.
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: mkawa on Mon, 11 June 2012, 08:22:32
can we move this discussion to its own thread?

ps, i would like to add a trackpoint to your design, prins. i have heard that vortex has sourced the strain gauge element and associated encoder/controller, and can start discussions with them to obtain enough for a GB.
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: uberben on Mon, 11 June 2012, 09:46:45
Quote from: mkawa;611162
can we move this discussion to its own thread?

ps, i would like to add a trackpoint to your design, prins. i have heard that vortex has sourced the strain gauge element and associated encoder/controller, and can start discussions with them to obtain enough for a GB.

I would be very interested in getting in on that GB, or at least to know the supplier of the parts.
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: bpiphany on Mon, 11 June 2012, 14:37:54
This thread is way beyond the point where it is possible to browse through anyways...

I don't remember if I kept the track point hole on the Phantom design. The guy who wanted there to be one never came around with the exact location or size. Track points have been the slow and painful death of some other projects already, no? One thing that is for sure is that it is not going to fit into the PCB design nor are there any pins free on the controller. So in any case it would need to be a separate unit that fits through the PCB somewhere. I dont know if there would be any room in any of the intended keyboard cases either.

I was doing some work cramming the controller in earlier today. There isn't that many empty surfaces where it fits easily. There is like an infinite amount of free area on a keyboard PCB. It's just very spread out =P
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: mkawa on Mon, 11 June 2012, 20:54:33
Quote from: PrinsValium;611385
This thread is way beyond the point where it is possible to browse through anyways...

I don't remember if I kept the track point hole on the Phantom design. The guy who wanted there to be one never came around with the exact location or size. Track points have been the slow and painful death of some other projects already, no? One thing that is for sure is that it is not going to fit into the PCB design nor are there any pins free on the controller. So in any case it would need to be a separate unit that fits through the PCB somewhere. I dont know if there would be any room in any of the intended keyboard cases either.
we can put it on a daughterboard and have treble do the case design to fit the extra depth once the pcb sandwich is designed. the current cases on the market kind of suck anyway for other reasons.

anyway, prins, can you start a new thread for this project?
Title: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: bpiphany on Tue, 12 June 2012, 12:26:22
Quote from: mkawa;611680
anyway, prins, can you start a new thread for this project?


No, you do it ;)

Seriously, I will when I have any material to put there... *off to work*
Title: Re: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: mkawa on Sun, 29 July 2012, 10:41:35
this thread is long dead. i'm going to close it and (eventually) archive it so that it doesn't keep getting newbies' hopes up.
Title: Re: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: lowpoly on Fri, 21 March 2014, 10:17:32
(Thanks for moving the thread back. Pics in first post repaired, grrr, imageshack.)

Update: working on it again and planning to finish it this time.  :)

I tried two different stainless steel stick shapes, here the first, 2.8mm head diameter:

(http://www.lowpoly.com/keyboard/miniguru/stick01.jpg)

ZIF cable connection, 0.5mm pitch:

(http://www.lowpoly.com/keyboard/miniguru/stick02.jpg)

Fake photo with Filco caps:

(http://www.lowpoly.com/keyboard/miniguru/stick05.jpg)

And the current design (left). 4mm head diameter. Stick is a little bit too thin at 1.1mm:

(http://www.lowpoly.com/keyboard/miniguru/stick06.jpg)

The idea is that the stick is so thin that it fits between GHB without having to cut the caps at all. This will depend on the keycap set and how pointy the corners are. The smaller circle is 1.32mm in diameter, the bigger 1.5:

(http://www.lowpoly.com/keyboard/miniguru/stick03.png)

J-pointer, suggested by bhtooefr:

(http://www.lowpoly.com/keyboard/miniguru/stick08.jpg)

(http://www.lowpoly.com/keyboard/miniguru/stick09.jpg)

Will not make it to the 'board but was fun to try out. You obiously lose press-to-scroll and tapping. Requires a deep spherical cap IMO.

Also, we're currently trying to put capacitive sensors under the spacebar so you can detect where it was pressed (or which thumb). For example right tumb = spacebar, left thumb = Function, both thumbs = backspace.

Title: Re: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: mkawa on Fri, 21 March 2014, 11:14:31
looks capacitive? how's the responsiveness of this mechanism vs the standard strain gauge units?
Title: Re: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: lowpoly on Fri, 21 March 2014, 11:41:45
Depends on the code but it can be quite soft. My original TP IV from an IBM 8923 (?) requires much more force.

Edit: yes, capacitive.
Title: Re: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: mkawa on Fri, 21 March 2014, 15:44:23
the original TP IVs are ancient compared to the units that alps now vends for thinkpads and HP units and others. would love if you could do a comparison/potentially even tune for similar response to a standalone thinkpad board: http://shop.lenovo.com/us/en/itemdetails/0B47189/460/60AC6A0372B14F5BA7B12F1FF88E33C7

still the gold standard in eraser nubs as far as i'm concerned ;)
Title: Re: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: uberben on Fri, 21 March 2014, 16:02:26
What flex sensor are you using? Is that a custom PCB? (It looks purple; OSHPark by any chance?)
Title: Re: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: jacobolus on Sat, 22 March 2014, 04:46:10
the original TP IVs are ancient compared to the units that alps now vends for thinkpads and HP units and others. would love if you could do a comparison/potentially even tune for similar response to a standalone thinkpad board: http://shop.lenovo.com/us/en/itemdetails/0B47189/460/60AC6A0372B14F5BA7B12F1FF88E33C7

still the gold standard in eraser nubs as far as i'm concerned ;)
I would be very interested to see a comprehensive review of various generations of thinkpad trackpoints, ideally also including comparisons to other OEMs’ trackpoint-style pointers.
Title: Re: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: Chemoletter on Sat, 22 March 2014, 10:50:23
amazing!!! i really like it. the soldering and cablework looks complicated.
Title: Re: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: mkawa on Sat, 22 March 2014, 11:31:49
i think alps is the only OEM of the strain gauge pointers, but i'm happy to be proven wrong. cap sense is like, the new thing in small micros due to the proliferation of touchscreen devices, so it's a good direction to go. that said, the assembly there looks a little finicky, both to build and to source. you should be able to do cap sense with just an elastomer disc above the lower electrode array and then a flanged conductive stick (doesn't have to be metal, just conductive).

the bigger thing is that you're going to have to run a lot of autocalibration routines to deal with the relatively large variations in absolute cap values between users elastomer tolerances, etc. the strain gauge solution is so nice because it's purely resistive, and yet pretty precise. (unicomp has a compressive pressure resistance mechanism that is easy to encode but not very precise at all..)
Title: Re: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: FoxWolf1 on Sat, 22 March 2014, 11:58:20
Ouch, those narrow metal sticks look like they'd be painful to use for an extended period or in high-intensity situations. You're at 4mm of metal, compared to 6mm of rubber for the narrowest real TrackPoint cap, the "classic dome" style. And the classic dome already leaves a crater in your finger, which feels rather weird until you get used to it.

I wish people would get over this obsession with changing keycaps already...it very much gets in the way of functionality-oriented innovation. :(
Title: Re: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: lowpoly on Sat, 22 March 2014, 17:26:02
Thanks for the replies.

the original TP IVs are ancient compared to the units that alps now vends for thinkpads and HP units and others. would love if you could do a comparison/potentially even tune for similar response to a standalone thinkpad board: http://shop.lenovo.com/us/en/itemdetails/0B47189/460/60AC6A0372B14F5BA7B12F1FF88E33C7
Feels similar to my T41 Thinkpad as far as activation force is concerned. It is hard to compare a 5mm stick to a 27mm one though. The software is different too. It does need tiny pressure from above or it won't work. I think you apply this naturally when the stick is between the keycaps, just to get some friction. With the stick sticking out, you can theoretically apply force from the side alone or even from below, but it is not made for that.

What flex sensor are you using? Is that a custom PCB? (It looks purple; OSHPark by any chance?)
No, not OSHPark. It's a complete unit. Let me get my orders in first before I disclose the stick info. Shouldn't be long. :D

Ouch, those narrow metal sticks look like they'd be painful to use for an extended period or in high-intensity situations. You're at 4mm of metal, compared to 6mm of rubber for the narrowest real TrackPoint cap, the "classic dome" style. And the classic dome already leaves a crater in your finger, which feels rather weird until you get used to it.
It's possible to exchange the stick. The 2.8mm one is too thin and not the way to go. 4mm is fine for me. Bigger, like the traditional square, is no problem too but not necessary IMO. I was never happy with the traditional caps. The cat tongues wear off quickly and the rubber ones get slippery. And you really only need little force when pointing. More for press-to-scroll and tapping.

i think alps is the only OEM of the strain gauge pointers, but i'm happy to be proven wrong. cap sense is like, the new thing in small micros due to the proliferation of touchscreen devices, so it's a good direction to go. that said, the assembly there looks a little finicky, both to build and to source. you should be able to do cap sense with just an elastomer disc above the lower electrode array and then a flanged conductive stick (doesn't have to be metal, just conductive).

the bigger thing is that you're going to have to run a lot of autocalibration routines to deal with the relatively large variations in absolute cap values between users elastomer tolerances, etc. the strain gauge solution is so nice because it's purely resistive, and yet pretty precise. (unicomp has a compressive pressure resistance mechanism that is easy to encode but not very precise at all..)
The 1.1mm stick is too thin. I could bend it easily while in the lathe. It works though. 1.3mm should be fine. Speaking of autocalibration, I never had problems with crawling so far. Always a problem with my TP IV, sometimes on my Thinkpad (but rarely).

ION, I installed the LUFA HID bootloader to this (http://www.hobbytronics.co.uk/atmega32u4-arduino-breakout) breakout board and then hasu's tmk software through the command line interface. Nothing spectacular but a necessary step nonetheless.
Title: Re: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: mkawa on Sat, 22 March 2014, 18:39:08
crawling was the autocalibration routine and triggered periodically without any feedback from the circuit (except for a watchdog timer). i'm suggesting something similar with your unit's firmware.
Title: Re: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: OldDataHands on Sat, 22 March 2014, 19:14:58

No, not OSHPark. It's a complete unit. Let me get my orders
in first before I disclose the stick info. Shouldn't be long. :D


You, sir, have my rapt attention.

This could be the answer to the question: "What pointing stick
solution will work for the DodoHand?", or even for retrofit projects (http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=12212.0)
like that pulled-off so nicely by gator456. Won't you please provide
some details? If these are available without tearing them out of
a donor keyboard it would be fantastic! In any case, I love your
longish, skinny metal extension, too. It could really ease the
integration challenge...

Title: Re: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: lowpoly on Sun, 23 March 2014, 15:21:48
crawling was the autocalibration routine and triggered periodically without any feedback from the circuit (except for a watchdog timer). i'm suggesting something similar with your unit's firmware.
With my Trackpoints (IV and Thinkpad) the calibration got confused easily. Especially with longer usage I suspect them to set a new zero in the meantime but wrong of course. Then, when I stop moving it would interpret the real zero as movement resulting in crawl. This would stop after a couple of seconds.

If these are available without tearing them out of a donor keyboard it would be fantastic! In any case, I love your longish, skinny metal extension, too. It could really ease the integration challenge...
New units, not harvested.
Title: Re: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: mkawa on Sun, 23 March 2014, 17:14:00
strain gauges, like clearances in capacitive devices, are not stable with time, especially when those gauges are mounted on a small diameter abs pillar. strain gauges are precise but not accurate and require constant recalibration to determine dynamic range. the trackpoint circuits had two methods of dealing with this:

1st, they were closed looped feedback systems so that harder pushes would cause the system to remap the dynamic range along the axes pushed on thus calibrating the upper bounds of the dynamic range. second, zero would be reset periodically, which caused the drift. the instructions given to the user were to stop using the pointer during the drift. you can then see how the closed loop feedback system, assuming no input, could set a zero (the lower bound of the dynamic range).

this is required for any system with tolerances as close as the trackpoints. and you can feel the difference in the precision of the algorithms in the various generations of alps circuits.

also, if you tear down a unicomp resistive circuit, what you can see is the alternative, which is that you just build the thing with gigantic mechanical and electrical tolerances and don't have any fancy control systems. you set a calibration once at manufacturing or even for an entire board series, you just write the calibration to the mask, but the result is really really loose feeling joysticks.

in fact, your little stick harness looks a heck of a lot like the unicomp mechanism, and you can pretty much assumed that the screw in it is at some point going to start backing out over time. you _cannot_ assume any static thresholds for an electromechanical device like this..
Title: Re: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: lowpoly on Mon, 24 March 2014, 05:37:03
in fact, your little stick harness looks a heck of a lot like the unicomp mechanism,
The stick and clamp are just a mechanical extension.

and you can pretty much assumed that the screw in it is at some point going to start backing out over time.
This would be a mechanical failure? I know I could use Weicon Lock or Loctite on the thread but these can be a pain if you want to change something.

you _cannot_ assume any static thresholds for an electromechanical device like this..
I don't have to worry about calibration. Not sure if I understand you?
Title: Re: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: mkawa on Tue, 25 March 2014, 00:35:00
thread locker will prevent you from repeatable torquing of the machine screw, as the thread locker causes large stochastic error in the torque values read by any torque control device.

all analog sense circuits require calibration, period. if the static or dynamic range of the sensed value ever changes, that calibration should ideally be a constant process, hence the existence of feedback and controls. feedback circuits allow you to maintain accuracy with low tolerances. lack of feedback requires very very high error margins to maintain output accuracy. in electromechanical circuits that sense a mechanically derived value, this means large mechanical margins. in your case this means a very loose mechanism and calibration at factory to this loose mechanism. otherwise, expect large and increasing sense error over time.
Title: Re: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: lowpoly on Tue, 25 March 2014, 10:27:49
in your case this means a very loose mechanism and calibration at factory to this loose mechanism.
It's not loose. And the ASIC does the calibration.

I think I misunderstood you somewhere along the way. Thought you were saying I had to do the calibration myself.
Title: Re: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: daerid on Wed, 26 March 2014, 02:03:44
Nice to see the Guru come back to life once again. Hopefully for good this time.
Title: Re: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: mkawa on Thu, 27 March 2014, 14:37:39
in your case this means a very loose mechanism and calibration at factory to this loose mechanism.
It's not loose. And the ASIC does the calibration.

I think I misunderstood you somewhere along the way. Thought you were saying I had to do the calibration myself.

ah, gotcha. yep, i was just saying that one or the other has to happen, but that the asic-based closed loop calibration is by far the better option. good deal. i'm pretty excited this is coming back to life by the way.
Title: Re: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: hemflit on Wed, 09 April 2014, 11:14:40
I originally discovered GH through following news about this awesome keyboard. Just the other day something reminded me of it, and checking back here I'm super happy to see that it's actually going to happen after all!


I have one little idea to propose, not so much for Lowpoly who's been working on this vision for years, but more for the next person who decides to make a different trackpoint keyboard (and who will inevitably look at this thread for ideas).

Some years back I had a thought about how cool it would be to have two trackpoints, one for each index finger, and I imagined we would use one of them for moving the cursor around and the other for scrolling. That thought came back just a couple of days ago, with two changes:

1) The two trackpoints on this hypothetical keyboard don't have to peek out between the keys. They can be on the front side of the keyboard, where the Miniguru has mouse buttons. They'd be used with the thumbs. This sounds like it could make some of the engineering easier.

2) In the last couple of years I've become a heavy user of touchpad gestures, and I see now how wasteful my old idea was, the one that one trackpoint would simply scroll and the other move the mouse. Humans have great agility and coordination in their thumbs, and combo "gestures" for two trackpoints can be way richer than that:

←→ zoom
→← unzoom/pinch
↑↓ rotate clockwise
↓↑ rotate ccw

There's more things that could do something:
- ↑↑, ↓↓, ←←, →→ - pulling both trackpoints the same way
- tapping one and then pulling it
- tapping+holding one and pulling the other
- pulling one ↕︎ and the other ↔︎

One of those would work for dragging (and at the same time text/rectangle selection) which is a hugely useful operation, and often needlessly hard with many mouse-alternatives.

The others could be used for whatever a user wants, like min/max/restore windows, back and forward in a browser, invoking some common but tiring key combo (Fn+Alt+0). Even the four I listed first could have different meanings, and scrolling could be moved to one of those new "gestures" if needed. I don't need to say that one of the points would serve as a right-click when tapped, and tapping both could mean a middle-click.

Yay, high-five myself, I'm really happy with that idea :)
Title: Re: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: sordna on Wed, 09 April 2014, 15:12:31
Very cool ideas!
Title: Re: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: lowpoly on Thu, 10 April 2014, 02:21:48
who's been working on this vision for years
Well, there were some breaks...  :D

Some years back I had a thought about how cool it would be to have two trackpoints
Right now the plan is to provide two additional stick positions in the case (for JKM and DFC) and two zif cable connectors on the pcb with connections to different mcu pins. So it should be possible. I don't have quotes for the case yet so we may have to simplify. :( Hopefully not.

1) The two trackpoints on this hypothetical keyboard don't have to peek out between the keys. They can be on the front side of the keyboard, where the Miniguru has mouse buttons. They'd be used with the thumbs. This sounds like it could make some of the engineering easier.
Maybe with another stick unit. The one I have is integrated with the pcb and it looks like it will be too wide for that.

←→ zoom
→← unzoom/pinch
↑↓ rotate clockwise
↓↑ rotate ccw

There's more things that could do something:
- ↑↑, ↓↓, ←←, →→ - pulling both trackpoints the same way
- tapping one and then pulling it
- tapping+holding one and pulling the other
- pulling one ↕︎ and the other ↔︎
Nice. :cool: You can also put more than one function on a single stick by reading pressure (which is how press-to-scroll works, edit:I think this is what you mean by holding). Precise tapping isn't easy and if done sloppy the firmware can confuse it with short press-to-scroll or movement. Pulling doesn't work with the units I have. I think the stick firmware filters it.
Title: Re: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: kriminal on Mon, 26 May 2014, 10:23:06
well well well....
Title: Re: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: lowpoly on Mon, 26 May 2014, 14:56:39
It's not what you think. :D

We've been working on it since. 3+ guys (until end of May at least, less after). Daily full time except weekends. There's just not much to update because we're in the middle of development testing circuits, doing changes to the case. I finished the designs for the host software and development has been started on that too. I'll order the first test pcbs in early June unless we don't run into some unforeseen problem (which can always happen).
Title: Re: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: lowpoly on Tue, 24 June 2014, 09:55:48
First pcbs (controller board) came today:

(http://www.lowpoly.com/keyboard/miniguru/first_pcb.jpg)

Not likely that these will work out of the box.

Got a lot more because of over production, 14 instead of 5.
Title: Re: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: vivalarevolución on Tue, 24 June 2014, 11:09:36
First pcbs (controller board) came today:

Show Image
(http://www.lowpoly.com/keyboard/miniguru/first_pcb.jpg)


Not likely that these will work out of the box.

Got a lot more because of over production, 14 instead of 5.


Sexy.  Great to see some progress.  I hope this becomes a thing. 

And thanks for changing your avatar.  That screen shot Grand Theft Auto or whatever was kind of distracting.
Title: Re: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: Vitaly on Sun, 06 July 2014, 17:42:09
Is it possible to buy trackpoint stick? Can't find. (trackpoint stick for diy/soldering)
Title: Re: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: lowpoly on Mon, 07 July 2014, 03:47:56
No, not yet, sorry. :( We have to make a breakout board before it is usable in DIY projects. It's on the list.
Title: Re: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: trishume on Mon, 07 July 2014, 09:45:50
No, not yet, sorry. :( We have to make a breakout board before it is usable in DIY projects. It's on the list.

I'm sure lots of people on this forum are electronically adept enough to hook one up given only the physical module, the ASIC and a datasheet.
This looks like a really cool component and it would be great if people could order one. It's currently extremely difficult for even advanced hobbyists to procure trackpoint modules without ripping apart thinkpads.
The only way I have found to buy just the modules is PMing carlos2014.

One thing I'm wondering is do you have an approximate cost of the modules? I recently was investigating how much it would cost to build a keyboard made with 10 trackpoints but it turned out to be prohibitively expensive with each module being $20.
Title: Re: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: lowpoly on Mon, 07 July 2014, 09:58:56
Without the breakout board and the stick extender it won't be fun in most DIY projects.

Right now the datasheet is only available under NDA. I'm currently working on this.

Quote
but it turned out to be prohibitively expensive with each module being $20.

It's more.

I know I test the patience of some of you and I apologize for that.  :(
Title: Re: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: Vitaly on Mon, 07 July 2014, 10:42:46
One thing I'm wondering is do you have an approximate cost of the modules? I recently was investigating how much it would cost to build a keyboard made with 10 trackpoints but it turned out to be prohibitively expensive with each module being $20.
Hi, after some research and googling find some possible variants:
Title: Re: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: trishume on Mon, 07 July 2014, 17:18:32
Thanks for the answers lowpoly and Vitaly. Looks like I'll shelve my idea for a 10 trackpoint keyboard for now. The alibaba one looked like a good price but it has a minimum order quantity of 1000, oh well.

I think the only way it would be possible to make a keyboard out of 10 trackpoints for a reasonable price would be to only have one controller ASIC and switch the inputs of it around to each force sensor set every fraction of second. But that would be complex and possibly not work depending on how the sensors worked.

Quote
I know I test the patience of some of you and I apologize for that.  :(

Don't worry about it. You're the only one who's close to releasing an awesome trackpoint module for full sized keyboards and that tantalizes some of us. But it puts you ahead of 100% of the rest of the population who  is not working on cool keyboards trackpoint stuff. Your keyboard design is awesome and you should feel awesome.
Title: Re: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: hasu on Mon, 07 July 2014, 21:53:36
I can source old junk Thinkpad keyboard for 100yen at local store if you are interested. But shpping cost may kill you.

I'm curious whether one micro controller can host all PS/2 signals simultaneously form ten TrackPoints.
Title: Re: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: hanya on Mon, 07 July 2014, 22:51:17
Reading 3 bytes data from a TrackPoint takes 5 ms. If I read one by one over 10 module, scanning rate is little slow. Fast MCU could read data from them asynchronously.
Title: Re: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: sordna on Mon, 07 July 2014, 23:11:25
Guys, laptop trackpoints are not really suitable. They are way too short to fit in a keyboard with full travel keys. What is needed is trackpoints like the one used in Unicomp endurapro me thinks.
Title: Re: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: Vitaly on Thu, 10 July 2014, 04:35:45
Guys, laptop trackpoints are not really suitable. They are way too short to fit in a keyboard with full travel keys. What is needed is trackpoints like the one used in Unicomp endurapro me thinks.
Yes, it too short. But it depends where you install stick or you can use exteeender  :) Who knows is it possible to get small joystick with rotation support?
Title: Re: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: lowpoly on Fri, 11 July 2014, 13:07:50
First switch pcbs came today:

(http://www.guru-board.com/pics/switch_pcb_rev_a.jpg)

The LED connectors are not connected, except F, J and Esc. No disco lights for now. :p But because all the "expensive" parts are on the controller pcb (except touch control), the switch pcb is easy to replace later on.

Several alternative switch positions for those who want to solder :D like
- ISO
- 5 1u keys in the lower right
- 1u key right of right shift (making "L" cursor block possible)
- 2 1u keys instead of backspace
- support for centered and offset space bar switches
- centered and offset CapsLock

If everything works out as expected these will be supported in the programming software as well (see small handles. Backspace came later, I still have to fix the design):

(http://www.guru-board.com/pics/programmer_02.jpg)


 I think we will only do regular ISO and ANSI though. But if you have the keycaps and want to mod, you can.
Title: Re: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: Vibex on Fri, 11 July 2014, 13:10:29
First switch pcbs came today:

Show Image
(http://www.guru-board.com/pics/switch_pcb_rev_a.jpg)


The LED connectors are not connected, except F, J and Esc. No disco lights for now. :p But because all the "expensive" parts are on the controller pcb (except touch control), the switch pcb is easy to replace later on.

Several alternative switch positions for those who want to solder :D like
- ISO
- 5 1u keys in the lower right
- 1u key right of right shift (making "L" cursor block possible)
- 2 1u keys instead of backspace
- support for centered and offset space bar switches
- centered and offset CapsLock

If everything works out as expected these will be supported in the programming software as well (see small handles. Backspace came later, I still have to fix the design):

Show Image
(http://www.guru-board.com/pics/programmer_02.jpg)



 I think we will only do regular ISO and ANSI though. But if you have the keycaps and want to mod, you can.
Looking good, really excited for this. #HYPE
Title: Re: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: lowpoly on Thu, 31 July 2014, 08:24:37
Short update, I ordered the first cnc-milled case a couple of days ago. Will take six weeks (I'm on a waiting list).

Rev. B of the controller pcb should be waiting for me in the office by now.

We'll also provide connector pads for the Sprintek module mentioned a couple of posts ago.

Title: Re: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: bueller on Thu, 31 July 2014, 08:56:30
Looking awesome! So the new PCB's will support Pure layouts?
Title: Re: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: lowpoly on Thu, 31 July 2014, 12:18:05
If you mean a key right of right shift then yes.
Title: Re: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: bueller on Fri, 01 August 2014, 03:45:00
If you mean a key right of right shift then yes.

Sweet! Consider me very interested then, I only buy 60% boards with the short right shift now. Will probably use this as my couch surfing board, just need to finish my DIY bluetooth addon.
Title: Re: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: lowpoly on Fri, 01 August 2014, 15:14:00
You will have to solder the switch though (and find keycaps).
Title: Re: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: xybre on Tue, 12 August 2014, 15:45:34
First switch pcbs came today:

Show Image
(http://www.guru-board.com/pics/switch_pcb_rev_a.jpg)


The LED connectors are not connected, except F, J and Esc. No disco lights for now. :p But because all the "expensive" parts are on the controller pcb (except touch control), the switch pcb is easy to replace later on.

Several alternative switch positions for those who want to solder :D like
- ISO
- 5 1u keys in the lower right
- 1u key right of right shift (making "L" cursor block possible)
- 2 1u keys instead of backspace
- support for centered and offset space bar switches
- centered and offset CapsLock

If everything works out as expected these will be supported in the programming software as well (see small handles. Backspace came later, I still have to fix the design):

Show Image
(http://www.guru-board.com/pics/programmer_02.jpg)



 I think we will only do regular ISO and ANSI though. But if you have the keycaps and want to mod, you can.

I just spent some time looking around your site and posts here, your keyboard looks fantastic. The configurable layouts and function keys are great, and integrating the pointer-stick was a great idea that really fits with the overall ethos. Is there like a notification email list or something?
Title: Re: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: lowpoly on Tue, 19 August 2014, 13:53:21
Is there like a notification email list or something?

There is no automated list. You can either watch this thread or send me an email (steff / guru-board.com).
Title: Re: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: lowpoly on Mon, 15 September 2014, 08:59:12
Quick update pic:

(http://www.lowpoly.com/keyboard/miniguru/working.jpg)

Working so far. Still a lot to sort out, hardware and software. Next pcb revision is in the works.
No case yet.
Title: Re: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: rgomes on Wed, 22 October 2014, 13:40:35
I inform that I've created a xkb configuration for X11 (Linux/FreeBSD) which provides emulation for the MINIGURU and TEX Yoda keyboards. There's also some small bits aiming making life of Emacs users less stressing (to the left pinkie, I mean).

https://github.com/frgomes/carpalx

I hope it helps :)
Title: Re: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: nandop on Thu, 30 October 2014, 18:34:54
Edit: Deleted content. Wrong thread!

Since I'm here, I want one! =) ;D
Title: Re: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: lowpoly on Tue, 04 November 2014, 11:27:39
nandop: wrong thread?  ;D

2nd CNC case:

(http://www.lowpoly.com/keyboard/miniguru/cnc_case.jpg)
Title: Re: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: vivalarevolución on Thu, 06 November 2014, 07:44:34
nandop: wrong thread?  ;D

2nd CNC case:

Show Image
(http://www.lowpoly.com/keyboard/miniguru/cnc_case.jpg)



Oooofff.  Nice.
Title: Re: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: CPTBadAss on Thu, 06 November 2014, 07:46:05
nandop: wrong thread?  ;D

2nd CNC case:

Show Image
(http://www.lowpoly.com/keyboard/miniguru/cnc_case.jpg)


Damn that's looking good lowpoly.
Title: Re: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: lowpoly on Thu, 20 November 2014, 05:11:47
^^^ Thanks!

Still working our way through the revisions. Revision 'C' of the controller pcb came on Monday. So, two days ago parts were soldered and it wouldn't work. :(

Then yesterday, after a small correction, for the first time EVERYTHING WORKED. A good day.  :D

7 months so far.

Had some problems with the case too which means I can't brush and clear coat it. So this one will be white which was on my list anyway. Will take me a few days to get paint etc.

Also, I soldered my first SMD controller board yesterday. Much easier than I thought. Smaller parts were 0805. We switched to 0603 in the meantime but I see no problem there too.
Title: Re: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: bertocq on Thu, 20 November 2014, 05:43:35
I just registered to let you know that what you are doing is really great IMHO and I want to encourage you to continue with the good work  :thumb:
Title: Re: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: lowpoly on Thu, 20 November 2014, 06:15:17
Thank you! :)
Title: Re: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: lowpoly on Mon, 08 December 2014, 05:25:18
I f*cked up the paint job (as always). Too much clear coat and it ran to the case edges. Too much paint, but before that the "sprinkles" wouldn't "merge", hmm... Not enough air pressure or something. Have to figure that out and do the paint job again.

Almost everything put together for the first time. Electronics worked (partly) out of the case but right here and now - not. Still some space issues for the FFC cables to figure out.

The mouse buttons lean out a little, so when pressed, the thumb doesn't touch the corner of the space bar cutout. Not too happy with how it looks right now, I'll try "thicker" next time. Clearcoat missing on those too. But the click feeling with tight fitting buttons is really good - unlike the 2008 prototype which was always lacking this.

Putting the problems aside - I'm really happy with how it looks and feels.

(Front pic slightly retouched because the bad paint was too distracting.)

(http://www.lowpoly.com/keyboard/miniguru/unfinished_front.jpg)

Case radii will be sharper in the next version:

(http://www.lowpoly.com/keyboard/miniguru/unfinished_back.jpg)

Feet should be gray with the white case but I don't have the material yet. Most of the holes will be gone in the next version. This was designed for tapping which is much easier with through-holes but now the plan is to use self-cutting screws.

(http://www.lowpoly.com/keyboard/miniguru/unfinished_feet.jpg)

After all a not-so-perfect interim step and a lot of work left but for me a big milestone nonetheless.
Title: Re: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: heedpantsnow on Mon, 08 December 2014, 06:59:08
Sweet. Still holding on for this!

I know you said you retouched the photo, but I think the paint looks great!
Title: Re: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: Lunatique on Mon, 29 December 2014, 20:33:42
Oh man, when you greeted me upon my arrival here at GH, I had no idea you were working on this project! This thing looks amazing and I'm definitely in the camp of "take my money naowwwww!" for this beautiful piece of work. Can't wait for it to finally become available for purchase.

BTW, are you still working in CG?
Title: Re: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: Lubed Up Slug on Tue, 30 December 2014, 19:28:09
So if we wanted to try our own design the best way to get one of those pointers would be from a ThinkPad?
Title: Re: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: Lunatique on Thu, 01 January 2015, 15:04:11
I didn't read this entire thread, so if this was already discussed, I apologize.

Lenovo holds the patent to the most up-to-date version of the Trackpoint design, while Unicomp owns the older version (that's my understanding anyway). Unicomp's is terrible--I just returned an Endurapro because of how lame the trackpoint was. Lenovo's version gets rave reviews and I was wondering if it's possible for a small indie guy such as lowpoly to license their Trackpoint to use in his MiniGuru? Would the cost be prohibitive?
Title: Re: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: engicoder on Thu, 01 January 2015, 16:57:28
I didn't read this entire thread, so if this was already discussed, I apologize.

Lenovo holds the patent to the most up-to-date version of the Trackpoint design, while Unicomp owns the older version (that's my understanding anyway). Unicomp's is terrible--I just returned an Endurapro because of how lame the trackpoint was. Lenovo's version gets rave reviews and I was wondering if it's possible for a small indie guy such as lowpoly to license their Trackpoint to use in his MiniGuru? Would the cost be prohibitive?

I think they are using the Sprintek solution http://sprintek.com/products/SK8702.aspx
Title: Re: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: lowpoly on Fri, 02 January 2015, 08:43:23
Happy new year everybody!

Oh man, when you greeted me upon my arrival here at GH, I had no idea you were working on this project! This thing looks amazing and I'm definitely in the camp of "take my money naowwwww!" for this beautiful piece of work. Can't wait for it to finally become available for purchase.

BTW, are you still working in CG?
Thanks.  :)

CG? Not like it used to be. The last "3D" stuff I made (with a team) was this robot:


youtube-Link doesn't work I guess? Here again:

(http://www.frs635.com/robot/sid01.jpg)

(http://www.frs635.com/robot/sid02.jpg)

(http://www.frs635.com/robot/sid03.jpg)

The second pic is in an early stage. After adding all the motors, magnets and wires, it doesn't look as pretty anymore. That's actually one of the main difficulties. Have a removable flexible skin with precise connection points.

The animations in the video are done with a CG model, then transferred to the robot servos (old game development rule, never leave the animations to the programmers   :-P).

When this project ended we put all resources on the Miniguru.

So if we wanted to try our own design the best way to get one of those pointers would be from a ThinkPad?
For the keyboard in the first post, I took a Trackpoint 4 from an old IBM rubber dome 'board. Can't look up the model # right now but it should be here somewhere. The advantage is that you don't have to make an extender.

Edit: IBM KPD8923

Lenovo holds the patent to the most up-to-date version of the Trackpoint design, while Unicomp owns the older version (that's my understanding anyway). Unicomp's is terrible--I just returned an Endurapro because of how lame the trackpoint was. Lenovo's version gets rave reviews and I was wondering if it's possible for a small indie guy such as lowpoly to license their Trackpoint to use in his MiniGuru? Would the cost be prohibitive?
I think the Unicomp patent expired. Al least the USPTO calculator said that some years ago. What Lenovo added after that - I don't know. I plan to use a commercially available stick that comes with its own patents.

We provided connectors for the Sprintek in the last revision. But right now I'm on the edge with even getting samples because of two independent broken sticks reported.


Title: Re: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: Lubed Up Slug on Fri, 02 January 2015, 11:33:53

So if we wanted to try our own design the best way to get one of those pointers would be from a ThinkPad?
For the keyboard in the first post, I took a Trackpoint 4 from an old IBM rubber dome 'board. Can't look up the model # right now but it should be here somewhere. The advantage is that you don't have to make an extender.

Edit: IBM KPD8923

Lenovo holds the patent to the most up-to-date version of the Trackpoint design, while Unicomp owns the older version (that's my understanding anyway). Unicomp's is terrible--I just returned an Endurapro because of how lame the trackpoint was. Lenovo's version gets rave reviews and I was wondering if it's possible for a small indie guy such as lowpoly to license their Trackpoint to use in his MiniGuru? Would the cost be prohibitive?
I think the Unicomp patent expired. Al least the USPTO calculator said that some years ago. What Lenovo added after that - I don't know. I plan to use a commercially available stick that comes with its own patents.

We provided connectors for the Sprintek in the last revision. But right now I'm on the edge with even getting samples because of two independent broken sticks reported.

What is an extender? Is that just the stick you made?

And the sprintek pointer seems to break or is it just the extender sticks? So my best bet would be to find one from an old IBM board or thinkpad?
Title: Re: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: lowpoly on Fri, 02 January 2015, 16:47:36
Notebook sticks are only a few millimeters long so you need to extend them for fullsize keys:

(http://www.lowpoly.com/keyboard/miniguru/stick06.jpg)

You need proper tools for this. Do some research and decide what you can/want to do.
Title: Re: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: Lunatique on Fri, 02 January 2015, 18:19:54
What was the boy robot for? R&D for a commercial product?

With that type of project under your belt, I'm sure you'll get the MiniGuru out there as a product--at least on the tech side. I don't remember what your business background is, or if you intend to run the business end of it yourself. Didn't you run your own studio at one point, or were you a freelancer?
Title: Re: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: daerid on Sun, 04 January 2015, 02:37:34
6 years...

Patiently waiting...

It's so close I can taste it...
Title: Re: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: lowpoly on Mon, 05 January 2015, 14:30:56
What was the boy robot for? R&D for a commercial product?
Internal research project with no specific goal.

With that type of project under your belt, I'm sure you'll get the MiniGuru out there as a product--at least on the tech side. I don't remember what your business background is, or if you intend to run the business end of it yourself. Didn't you run your own studio at one point, or were you a freelancer?
I always had a company (with my partners) and still have it. Not a studio - we are basically a software company.

6 years...

Patiently waiting...

It's so close I can taste it...
I'm sorry it takes so long. :( Looking back the last half year I wonder where the months went...
Title: Re: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: daerid on Tue, 06 January 2015, 15:34:48
I'm sorry it takes so long. :( Looking back the last half year I wonder where the months went...

No worries. I'd rather have it right than right now.
Title: Re: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: Lunatique on Wed, 14 January 2015, 00:23:56
Hey lowpoly, don't know if you have seen this, but you might be interested in this group buy at Massdrop for Trackpoint/Mouse Point: https://www.massdrop.com/vote/trackpoint--mouse-point-module-for-kb-enthusiast-and-diy?utm_source=Sailthru&utm_medium=email&utm_term=Personalization%20Email%2020150112%20%28Personalized%29&utm_campaign=Personalization%20Promo%2020150112&mode=guest_open
Title: Re: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: lowpoly on Thu, 15 January 2015, 16:08:19
^^^ Thanks for the suggestion!
Title: Re: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: wyatt8740 on Fri, 13 February 2015, 17:12:25
Wow, just discovered this. I do want :D

edit: oh, wait, no arrow keys. Any chance of a version with arrow keys (TKL preferred)?
Title: Re: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: sypl on Mon, 16 February 2015, 23:34:57
Man, that case is gorgeous.
Title: Re: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: lowpoly on Wed, 04 March 2015, 13:17:19
edit: oh, wait, no arrow keys. Any chance of a version with arrow keys (TKL preferred)?
No TKL for now :). The pcb has drills and connections for an "L" cursor cluster in the lower right though.

ION, the developer who left in November will be back for another month and hopefully, hopefully we can finish Rev C and (more important) Rev D.
Title: Re: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: MrRooks on Mon, 09 March 2015, 12:39:32
Sorry I can't seem to find a way to search inside an individual thread. Can you tell me what switches you used for the mouse buttons? I'm working on my own trackpoint mod and I'm looking at switch options.
Title: Re: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: yorgasor on Tue, 31 March 2015, 11:29:19
Long time drooler (wow, has it really been almost 6 years?), first time poster...

How programmable will the mouse buttons be?  I use the middle mouse button more than the right mouse button.  If we'll only have two buttons available on the keyboard, I'd really like to make the right button a "middle click."
Title: Re: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: lowpoly on Wed, 20 May 2015, 11:14:41
So, the developer was back, but only for a few days. Soldered the Rev D controller but it wouldn't work. There's one (other) guy left working on it and during the last weeks he managed to debug the pcb and fix it so that it works now. One basic function doesn't. I have to look into that, I think it's a programming issue. The new Rev D switch pcb is soldered too and both should be on the way to my office as we speak. We found a few minor bugs that shouldn't hurt function but we'll have to do another pcb revision in the future. My goal is to have something working and I think we could be close.

The Rev D case is milled already and I have to "brush" it. This one should go to powder coating, clear, with black keycaps.

We also continued a bit on the programmer software, making it resizable with bootstrap.

Sorry I can't seem to find a way to search inside an individual thread. Can you tell me what switches you used for the mouse buttons? I'm working on my own trackpoint mod and I'm looking at switch options.
Mouse-type micro switches. In the end they evolved to very small SMD types with the switch nub on top, so the button/lever presses down on these. Not sure if the Mouser part # will help you. Whether they work for you depends on lever construction but I can lookup the number if you want.

Before that we had mouse micro switches with the nub at the side, with 90 deg through hole connectors. These interfered with the spacebar stabilizer and there was a risk of shortened contacts. With the SMD switches this has been resolved. Also, now that the lever presses down on the switch and not sideways we don't need screws anymore that keep the switch in place in case of abuse. Much better construction overall.

Long time drooler (wow, has it really been almost 6 years?), first time poster...

How programmable will the mouse buttons be?  I use the middle mouse button more than the right mouse button.  If we'll only have two buttons available on the keyboard, I'd really like to make the right button a "middle click."
More than 6 years.  :D

Mouse switches are part of the matrix so you can program them like any other switch (or make any other switch a mouse button).
Title: Re: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: lowpoly on Fri, 29 May 2015, 09:29:11
Re: mouse switches, here's the pic:

(http://www.lowpoly.com/keyboard/miniguru/mouse_switch.jpg)
Title: Re: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: hasu on Fri, 29 May 2015, 17:41:43
awesome.

how are mouse buttons pushed by user in final product? I guess it has something like mechanical apparatus between the switch and button. Users push mouse buttons forward to space bar or push down to desk?
Title: Re: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: lowpoly on Mon, 01 June 2015, 11:43:57
They're hinged, like the prototype. The user pushes forward.
Title: Re: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: stereolink on Mon, 05 October 2015, 23:04:25
lowpoly: do you have any updates on a clear idea for release date goals at this point or is still too early to tell? I am very excited if/when it does get released.
Title: Re: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: Vittra on Tue, 01 December 2015, 12:29:39
Miniguru + Cherry MX Red = Want. Want NOW.

I'd definitely purchase one. :dance:

Still waiting.

:)
Title: Re: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: lowpoly on Thu, 03 December 2015, 06:17:44
Sorry for no updates. If there's something consistent with this project, it's the lack of consistency.  :D

I lost one important coworker earlier this year and the other guy has little time since some months. Me too.

Anyway, I worked on it during last weekend and (almost) finished the mechanical/electronic part of Revision D:

(http://www.lowpoly.com/keyboard/miniguru/miniguru_with_note4.jpg)

Brushed aluminum with clearcoat. If you look at the first post in this thread, this is the version I always wanted. From an aesthetic point of view it does deliver!

We also moved the trackpoint slightly to a different angle. In the white version (earlier in this thread) it was invading the airspace over the "B" key a little. Now it's perfect. No cutting of the BGH keys necessary.

The mouse buttons are as smooth as they can be. There is no possiblity you'll move the 'board when using them. Unless you use excessive force, of course.

Only 2 LEDs missing because I couldn't find them. Have to look again. And the mouse buttons need a layer of clearcoat.

So basically, what's left is the firmware. If the controller board works. I've been reluctant to deal with the firmware because everything has been remodeled since I've last touched it. Will start with the white keyboard (Rev C) these days.

We still don't know if we will put it on Kickstarter (or any other crowd funding platform).There are so many steps involved in building this... It will probably need a chinese/taiwanese manufacturer to take over the whole thing. And I'm not sure if I can organize that. We'll see. If we don't find a good solution we will open source the whole project. So, in 2016 we should come to a decision what's going to happen finally.

EDIT: I also should get emails now when someone replies to this topic. Took me only 7 years to figure this out.
Title: Re: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: nephiel on Thu, 03 December 2015, 06:55:18
I really like where this is going. ¿What TrackPoint are you using?

I'd suggest to make the top of the TrackPoint nub as grippy as possible - this reduces the force and effort needed to move the cursor, greatly improving control. I experimented with rubber and even Sugru, but the best results I got by far were with fine grit sandpaper.

(http://i.imgur.com/1bFFtM0m.jpg) (http://imgur.com/1bFFtM0)

(http://i.imgur.com/LusBslrm.jpg) (http://imgur.com/LusBslr)

(http://i.imgur.com/JtY5YCzm.jpg) (http://imgur.com/JtY5YCz)

(see the link on my sig for details)

Your extender seems to be machined metal, knurling or engraving the top to add some texture might be worth a try.
Title: Re: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: lowpoly on Thu, 03 December 2015, 07:10:16
Can't disclose the trackpoint source for now, sorry. :(

Engraving the top of the stick is something I thought about already. For knurling it's a bad angle? I'd just like to hit it with something that leaves some scars on the surface. Probably requires a custom tool. Etching? Should not wear off. Engraving should be best for the prototype. But this stick is A36 steel. We'll see how the goldsmith next door will like it. :D

Another pic from that series:

(http://www.lowpoly.com/keyboard/miniguru/miniguru_with_note4_top.jpg)
Title: Re: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: mrbishop on Mon, 21 December 2015, 15:59:45
i like where this is going  :thumb:
Title: Re: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: Rhedone on Tue, 22 December 2015, 05:11:58
I almost want to cancel my Pok3r order because of this, but i need a new board now so waiting isn't an option.  Looking forward to a release date ;)
Title: Re: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: sircheddar on Tue, 29 December 2015, 18:38:25
Can't disclose the trackpoint source for now, sorry. :(

Engraving the top of the stick is something I thought about already. For knurling it's a bad angle? I'd just like to hit it with something that leaves some scars on the surface. Probably requires a custom tool. Etching? Should not wear off. Engraving should be best for the prototype. But this stick is A36 steel. We'll see how the goldsmith next door will like it. :D

Another pic from that series:

Show Image
(http://www.lowpoly.com/keyboard/miniguru/miniguru_with_note4_top.jpg)


this picture makes it look like it has bluetooth o:? any chance of that? either way, i am certainly interested
Title: Re: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: tent on Fri, 15 January 2016, 14:22:01
Will this ever become true and orderable.. even a kit would be great! I waaaaaant it since years.. I thing 7 at least :)

tent:wq
Title: Re: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: vivalarevolución on Fri, 15 January 2016, 17:33:35
Will this ever become true and orderable.. even a kit would be great! I waaaaaant it since years.. I thing 7 at least :)

tent:wq

Wow, I did not realize it has been that long. 

Regardless, if it ever does become available as a DIY kit, it would be an improvement over the only other similar option, the Tex Yoda.
Title: Re: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: tent on Fri, 15 January 2016, 18:55:26
I agree.. but are there yodas available? I do not think so..
Title: Re: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: vivalarevolución on Fri, 15 January 2016, 21:08:52
I agree.. but are there yodas available? I do not think so..

Not currently, except for used models that may be floating around.
Title: Re: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: jbaber on Sun, 24 January 2016, 12:28:55
@lowpoly While we're at it, where did you get that nice phone stand?
Title: Re: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: nephiel on Mon, 15 February 2016, 09:39:15
I just upgraded the nub on my board from sandpaper to titanium ;D

(http://i.imgur.com/RCXaS0X.jpg)

(http://i.imgur.com/kFXiBa9.jpg)
Title: Re: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: lowpoly on Tue, 16 February 2016, 06:41:01
I thought I had this thread on email notification...

I just upgraded the nub on my board from sandpaper to titanium ;D

Show Image
(http://i.imgur.com/RCXaS0X.jpg)


Show Image
(http://i.imgur.com/kFXiBa9.jpg)



Looking great. How did you do it?

@lowpoly While we're at it, where did you get that nice phone stand?

I made it from aluminum flower wire. You can bend it by hand if the radius is not too small. Some paracord for the hinge and shrink tubing for the feet.
Title: Re: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: nephiel on Tue, 16 February 2016, 09:01:19
I thought I had this thread on email notification...

I just upgraded the nub on my board from sandpaper to titanium ;D

Show Image
(http://i.imgur.com/RCXaS0X.jpg)


Show Image
(http://i.imgur.com/kFXiBa9.jpg)



Looking great. How did you do it?

I have some titanium disks I got from TheRingLord.com - they sell chainmail and scalemail supplies. These disks were offcuts from punching the holes on titanium scales. The diameter was spot on, but they were flat and too slippery.

First I tried to add texture to a few by pressing them against a metal file with a vice, but those didn't turn out grippy enough. So I stuck one with putty to an iron block, grabbed a hammer and a broken drill bit, and went at it. That worked better than I expected, so I made a second one, which is the one I'm using.

(http://i.imgur.com/OqKg9uV.jpg)

(http://i.imgur.com/CbKj1FI.jpg)

@lowpoly While we're at it, where did you get that nice phone stand?

I made it from aluminum flower wire. You can bend it by hand if the radius is not too small. Some paracord for the hinge and shrink tubing for the feet.
Mind sharing a picture of it? I want to make one like that. I'm currently using a can opener as a stand.
Title: Re: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: lowpoly on Tue, 16 February 2016, 10:31:27
Good idea, hammering it with a drill bit. Thanks.

Let me take a picture of the phone stand tomorrow with better lighting.
Title: Re: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: lowpoly on Wed, 17 February 2016, 07:56:25
Pic:

(http://www.frs635.com/keyboard/phone_stand.jpg)

Foldable of course.
Title: Re: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: nephiel on Wed, 17 February 2016, 08:10:14
Neat! Thanks.
Title: Re: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: Tye on Tue, 29 March 2016, 20:59:47
nephiel (or anyone else who knows),

Can you provide more information on your experience adding the extension to the trackpoint?

It looks like you used epoxy? Did you have to alter the Trackpoint itself in any other way?
After doing the mod would you recommend a particular method or type of adhesive?
How has it held up over the last few months?

I've ordered all the parts I need to do this mod myself. Now I'm just waiting for everything to arrive so I can start.

Thanks!
Title: Re: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: nephiel on Wed, 30 March 2016, 16:38:31
I've been using it for an average of 6 hours every day, for months, and it's holding up just fine so far. There's a tiny bit of flex but it's probably due to the plastic keyboard case - the nub doesn't really move.

From top to bottom, the components I used are:
All the pictures are on the link in my signature. The 4 nuts are epoxied to the bottom case of the keyboard, so the module is held with its 4 screws and can be removed, just like on the ThinkPad. To prevent the module and screws from sticking to the epoxy on the nuts while it cured, I used bits of Teflon tape (the plumbers' kind).

Keep in mind that extending greatly increases the leverage and the force applied to the module. I set the sensitivity to high so I don't need to press hard at all. But if I put the board in a backpack and someone sat on it, the extension would probably break or snap off.
Title: Re: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: UTommieTanka on Wed, 30 March 2016, 17:45:41
Holy crap that thing is awesome! Love the look of it :)

edit: Just saw that the post was 8 years ago xD
Title: Re: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: LulaNord on Mon, 13 March 2017, 10:33:07
Hi...i am a new user here. As per my knowledge Eagle is not cheap for the size we're talking about here. This would make it difficult for others to work on the design. Target (similar to Eagle) is priced by pins and better for a keyboard pcb. However, I figured most parts have to be done manually anyway, so KiCad will do. I also liked that KiCad said it supported Wings3D for the 3D representation of a part. And I had built the switches in Wings already (turned out is uses .wrl what can be written by almost any decent 3D package). Also there's already at least one successful KiCad project here in the mod forum, or even two.

pcb turnkey assembly (https://www.7pcb.com/)
Title: Re: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: menuhin on Tue, 14 March 2017, 16:05:17
Someone modded the HHKB JP - a TrackPoint HHKB JP:

(http://img03.aucfan.com/item_data/image/20150412/yahoo/w/w119173231.1.jpg)

(http://img03.aucfan.com/item_data/image/20150412/yahoo/w/w119173231.2.jpg)

(http://img03.aucfan.com/item_data/image/20150412/yahoo/w/w119173231.3.jpg)
Title: Re: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: ejune on Sun, 01 April 2018, 21:01:52
Hello Lowpoly

I want to build a keyboard with trackpoint too, it's glad to see your topic, but I can't see the pictures you have posted

here is my introduction
https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=94981.0

Title: Re: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: lowpoly on Mon, 02 April 2018, 15:31:54
Hmmmm. The pics are still there. The links all use http, but it looks like geekhack reconfigures those to https. https then fails because of a missing certificate.

Is there an easy fix for this? Or do I have to add a certificate.
Title: Re: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: lowpoly on Tue, 03 April 2018, 12:15:44
Added a certificate. Works for me now. Let me know if you still have problems.
Title: Re: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: menuhin on Tue, 03 April 2018, 13:30:20
wOW, the elder replied.

I have long considered lowpoly's integrated trackpoint keyboard design superior to those keyboard kits now available on the market - although those kits have the advantage of their prototypes now gone through a few testing phases.
The thoughts and considerations put into this design can prove itself.
Title: Re: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint
Post by: klapse on Thu, 17 January 2019, 20:59:05
Can't disclose the trackpoint source for now, sorry. :(


Can you disclose it now?