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geekhack Projects => Making Stuff Together! => Topic started by: skcheng on Fri, 30 April 2010, 22:52:05

Title: Buckling Spring Floss Mod
Post by: skcheng on Fri, 30 April 2010, 22:52:05

Got a tip today from fellow Geekhacker Phoenix.   So.....you don't like the springy twang of the IBM Buckling Spring.  Yearn for a soft and quiet actuation but like the precise feel and typing speed of the good ol' buckling spring?  Don't feel like messing with grease??

Here are the directions given to me from Phoenix:

I tried a silencing mod on the model m that's easy and actually works.

Use fluffy floss, cut the fluffy part into uniform sections of
slightly less than spring length, hold the spring straight, gently
inert floss sections into the spring, and you are done. The residual
vibration of the spring is greatly reduced. Now the key sounds more
like Alps.

I also tried folding and inserting twice as much (I used a long and
thin piece of plastic to push the center of the floss section in
first). Now it sounds kind of like Cherry brown. It's that quiet. I
also tried using a washer from the wheelwriter in addition to this,
which further dampened the bottoming out noise. Didn't have time to do
it to the whole board, but I highly recommend that you try it. Huge
difference, and key registration is absolutely unaffected (at least on
mine). Should work on the Model F, too. Much less hassle than the
"little piece of foam in the spring near the hammer" thing people did
according to one of the patents online.

So floss is one thing that I have a LOT of and in various types.  

Enter.......Super Floss!!!  

(http://fototime.com/7C43E4D6CCF1183/standard.jpg)

Super Floss is something that I dispense frequently in my office for aiding in cleaning under implant restorations, bridgework, large embrasures etc...   The floss has a thin, stiff leader segment, followed by a soft, spongy region and then some stiff, but more standard dental floss.  

The spongy region is what you want to use:

(http://fototime.com/DFB54B8413D6F41/standard.jpg)

Simply chop off a piece around the length of the buckling spring and insert into the center of the spring.  That's it.  When you're done, it should look like this:

(http://fototime.com/92E514A3AC2995B/standard.jpg)

Closer up:

(http://fototime.com/204EF555412DDD4/standard.jpg)

Now the keyboard thocks and the higher pitched "ping" is completely gone.   The actuation is somewhat damped in my opinion, but Phoenix didn't seem to feel any difference.  Maybe it's because I had some extension of the floss past the uppermost height of the spring.  

Now it's quiet, and soft.  Difference is NOT subtle.   Preference is another thing.  I've come to expect the good ol' buckling spring ping.  Just seems odd typing on a dampened IBM buckling spring board.    According to Phoenix, doubling up on the foamy floss will soften the sound/feel to something similar to Cherry browns.  I don't doubt it.  

Try it.  It's clean, simple and easily reversible.  If you don't like it, simply remove with a toothpick or other small implement.   I used college pliers to pick out the spongy floss.    Use SHARP scissors  (I used small surgical scissors) to cut the floss cleanly.  Otherwise, the floss frays and it won't simply drop into the center of the spring.  

Tomorrow I'll perform the mod on an entire Space Saving Mini and report back.  

Fun mod!!!  Give 'er a try and post results.  

skc

Title: Buckling Spring Floss Mod
Post by: wellington1869 on Fri, 30 April 2010, 23:10:01

fascinating mod, great pics, awesome write up :)

btw can you post a sound sample (with and without mod) when you get a chance?

I can totally see this working, tho in comparison to the silicon grease mod, I imagine dental floss mod would be much much quieter.  With silicon grease mod one can "tune" both the sound level and the feel by increasing or decreasing the size of the grease blob. My guess is that the dental floss mod's results might be more radical than that. (As you said, "the difference is not subtle".) And that said, if I were looking to quiet down my M, I'd most definitely try this mod on for size.

Thanks for the great writeup, sk!

Title: Buckling Spring Floss Mod
Post by: skcheng on Fri, 30 April 2010, 23:19:34

Quote from: wellington1869;177725

fascinating mod, great pics, awesome write up :)

btw can you post a sound sample (with and without mod) when you get a chance?

I can totally see this working, tho in comparison to the silicon grease mod, I imagine dental floss mod would be much much quieter.  With silicon grease mod one can "tune" both the sound level and the feel by increasing or decreasing the size of the grease blob. My guess is that the dental floss mod's results might be more radical than that. (As you said, "the difference is not subtle".) And that said, if I were looking to quiet down my M, I'd most definitely try this mod on for size.

Thanks for the great writeup, sk!

I just tried stuffing more floss in there and you can completely deaden the sound.   I mean, we're talking Topre quiet.  

What do I need to do to provide sound samples??   I guess I need a mic (can you recommend one?) and a link to the sound bar that everyone here uses.  

Thx,

skc

Title: Buckling Spring Floss Mod
Post by: wellington1869 on Fri, 30 April 2010, 23:27:05

Quote from: skcheng;177735

What do I need to do to provide sound samples??   I guess I need a mic (can you recommend one?) and a link to the sound bar that everyone here uses.  

re: mic:  I simply use a relatively well reviewed computer external microphone (it sits on the desk, 1/8" plug, tho they have usb ones too obviously). The same mic i use for skype, basically. I dont think you really need to spend a lot of money on it if you dont want to; mine cost $10 and sounds good enough to give people a rough sense of the sound difference.  I dont think anyone's expecting Cd quality results or anything.

Alternately if you have a digital voice recorder for instance, just use that. Prop it up above the keyboard and go nuts.

Some people have used the built-in mic in their computers but I guess i'd avoid that if possible, at least with an external mic you can place it at the right distance after some testing of the results.

People have different ideas about the best mic placement. If its too close to the keyboard, you pick up extraneous irrelevant noises from the keystrokes and the differences in sound (mod/no-mod) become hard to detect. If its too far, same problem. The idea is to place it in such a way that the two recordings (with mod/without mod) to your ears "demonstrate" the difference in the sound as you perceive them. Nothing scientific about this, just use your judgement I think.

Re: the sound bar, I believe it appears automatically when you upload an mpg file. Just upload an mpg as an attachment to a post, just like you'd do with a pic. The sound bar is generated automatically.

Title: Buckling Spring Floss Mod
Post by: phoenix on Sat, 01 May 2010, 03:40:11

Nice photos, skc! I look forward to the sound samples.

I recommend cutting the floss a little shorter than the spring minus hammer stem. Roughly 14 mm is good. If you want to insert bifolded floss for slightly stiffer but even quieter clicks, use 28 mm. That way the floss doesn't stick out of the spring when you put the cap on. If you have too much floss sticking out, the spring might not align well with the little dimple inside the key cap stem.

With 1x floss the keys are free of high-pitch reverberation. It's a good balance between silence and key feel. With 2x floss it may be too stiff and muffled for some people.

Unicomp should find a cheap supplier for the material that the floss is made of or something similar and make this a $10 option. QuietClick and SilentClick, maybe?

Title: Buckling Spring Floss Mod
Post by: clickclack on Sat, 01 May 2010, 03:50:47

What an interesting idea! I suppose some light string or thin/unwinded yarn would work too. A strip of tissue, a pubic hair, belly button lint... wait... a what?

Good job guys, I bet this is a great mod!
:)

Title: Buckling Spring Floss Mod
Post by: ch_123 on Sat, 01 May 2010, 04:19:06

Ripster's recording of the Model F is as accurate as I've ever heard, but yeah, most of the other ones miss most of the sound.

Title: Buckling Spring Floss Mod
Post by: skcheng on Sat, 01 May 2010, 06:11:07

Quote from: webwit;177764

Nice! I don't care for sound samples using cheap microphones myself. They cover a limited frequency and all keyboards sound alike for me. Example: try to find a good sound sample of the Model F's refined ping.

Do you have a good mic that you would recommend?  So that I can add to the current list of input devices jammed into all of my available USB ports?  Currently I have two trackballs, two mice and three keyboards LOL.

Title: Buckling Spring Floss Mod
Post by: skcheng on Sat, 01 May 2010, 06:17:00

Quote from: phoenix;177759

Nice photos, skc! I look forward to the sound samples.

I recommend cutting the floss a little shorter than the spring minus hammer stem. Roughly 14 mm is good. If you want to insert bifolded floss for slightly stiffer but even quieter clicks, use 28 mm. That way the floss doesn't stick out of the spring when you put the cap on. If you have too much floss sticking out, the spring might not align well with the little dimple inside the key cap stem.

With 1x floss the keys are free of high-pitch reverberation. It's a good balance between silence and key feel. With 2x floss it may be too stiff and muffled for some people.

Unicomp should find a cheap supplier for the material that the floss is made of or something similar and make this a $10 option. QuietClick and SilentClick, maybe?

SuperFloss isn't cheap and I buy bulk samples to hand out.  Took me three strands to cover one row of keys.   Super easy to remove.    

The end result is a feel that is totally different than a regular Model M key feel.   Almost rubbery.  And soft.   But I miss the sound.......

Title: Buckling Spring Floss Mod
Post by: didjamatic on Sat, 01 May 2010, 07:26:40

Best Model M mod I've seen.  Silicone grease is a sloppy mess, can be inconsistent and is not easily reversible.  I would never buy a Model M that has had grease.  But this mod is nice and clean and requires only pulling caps, I love it!

Title: Buckling Spring Floss Mod
Post by: skcheng on Sat, 01 May 2010, 08:48:24

Quote from: didjamatic;177800

Best Model M mod I've seen.  Silicone grease is a sloppy mess, can be inconsistent and is not easily reversible.  I would never buy a Model M that has had grease.  But this mod is nice and clean and requires only pulling caps, I love it!

Try it Didj.   Let me know what you think??

Title: Buckling Spring Floss Mod
Post by: Mental Hobbit on Sat, 01 May 2010, 09:19:03

Did the same a while ago using pieces of ordinary rubber rings. Works well too.

Title: Buckling Spring Floss Mod
Post by: skcheng on Sat, 01 May 2010, 10:00:41

Quote from: ripster;177815

Or use foam.   From SCTony's mod in the AT&T patent post. (http://geekhack.org/showwiki.php?title=Island:7405)  The concept is simple - you're trying to dampen the vibrations.

Show Image

(http://geekhack.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=5779&d=1258521975)

One of the reasons I like my mike setup is because I run it through a decent mike preamp.  Not a big fan of USB mikes.

Show Image

(http://geekhack.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=3339&stc=1&d=1248581410)

The Super Floss mod is easier.   And probably eaiser to undo.  

What mike setup do you use??  I could use a good mike and mike preamp setup.

skc

Title: Buckling Spring Floss Mod
Post by: skcheng on Sat, 01 May 2010, 10:09:57

Quote from: ripster;177819

Specifics are in the megasound sample post.  I just had the equipment  lying around from guitar stuff.  USB mikes may have gotten better since the last time I looked.

Okay.  I'll look around to see what I can come up with.   Can't be a real Geekhack without the ability to post sound samples  :)

Title: Buckling Spring Floss Mod
Post by: kishy on Sat, 01 May 2010, 11:25:34

Quote from: ripster;177815

The concept is simple - you're trying to dampen the vibrations.

> type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="480" height="385">[/youtube]

Title: Buckling Spring Floss Mod
Post by: aegrotatio on Sat, 01 May 2010, 23:45:15

Wow, I knew there was a good use for that fluffy floss I accidentally bought.  Thanks, I'll try this on one of my Model Ms.

Title: Buckling Spring Floss Mod
Post by: wellington1869 on Sat, 01 May 2010, 23:54:00

few random things --
--sk, can you post sound samples of both 1x and 2x inserts?
--in my view no need to go nuts on recording setup because the average computer speaker wont reproduce it anyway.
--But hey, couldnt hurt, so if you have the time and money, sure, go nuts with the recording quality.
--yarn/wool string -- i wonder if that would work; if it did, its cheap and readily available.
--never had any issues with inconsistent sound quality with the grease mod (ie, from key to key?), but yea its not "fully" reversible.
--longevity of this mod is a question; how will floss or yarn or etc hold up in sound dampening characteristics after, say, 6 months of use? I guess some time will tell.
--the more methods there are available to dampen/mute mechanical boards, the better; personally i'm now curious about how different materials (like yarn) might work when stuffed into these springs. Could get quite creative in selecting and trying different materials, actually.  They'd probably give slightly different results, each of which would suit different people better or worse. So yea, the more methods there are (and sound samples/results uploaded and reviewed), the better for everyone.

thanks again sk; this kind of opens up a new branch of 'research'  ;)

Title: Buckling Spring Floss Mod
Post by: wellington1869 on Sun, 02 May 2010, 00:13:17

i had one other question for anyone who does a trial implementation of this mod. Regarding tactility: is it reduced or eliminated?
As I understand it, the tactile *feel* of the click on the buckling spring requires the spring to buckle. Does it still buckle with the same violence with floss or yarn inside it? Arent you affecting *both* feel as well as sound?  With the grease mod (when applied moderately) you dont really affect feel. There the spring is still free to buckle violently, its the reverberations (on both plastic and steel spring) that are dampened a lot.

btw, see this old thread investigating the source of the buckling spring's sound/feel (http://geekhack.org/showthread.php?t=6726).

also, just fyi, to compare this mod with: I tried at one point covering the outside of the spring with a thin latex sac (http://geekhack.org/showpost.php?p=75895&postcount=10). And Rippy tried plastidip at one point (http://geekhack.org/showpost.php?p=108225&postcount=100). (ie, all this was on the outside of the spring, tho SK is trying to stuff the inside of the spring now, which is interesting). But in those experiments the general consensus seemed to be that if the spring doesnt buckle you're going to lose both feel as well as sound. Does it still buckle with tactility with floss or yarn?

Title: Buckling Spring Floss Mod
Post by: EverythingIBM on Sun, 02 May 2010, 02:24:18

To make this "floss" mod more successful, I'd advise people to use the two-piece key set. I plucked some keys off of my model F, placed them on my model M, and noticed they were a lot more clattery than the two-piece keys for some reason. Although, they are a lot more responsive and feel more crisp. Strange how a two-piece cap system can be so different.

Title: Buckling Spring Floss Mod
Post by: phoenix on Sun, 02 May 2010, 06:02:22

I finally did this to all the keys on my Model M Mini. To try something new I did it with Ultra Floss instead of Super Floss :)

http://www.amazon.com/Oral-B-Ultra-Floss-Dental-Original/dp/B000GGJCFW (less than $5 at CVS.)

Unlike Super Floss, Ultra floss comes in long, 18-inch (0.45m) strands. One pack gives you 55 yards = 50 meters. I only needed 3 strands for the whole board. It is about 2/3 as thick as super floss, so I cut them slightly longer, roughly 15~16mm, to fill the spring.

Since it's thinner, it doesn't remove as much reverberation but enough to make a difference. The click is still very present, and I can safely say that key feel is unaffected.

CVS has its own store brand fluffy floss that's less than $3 a pack. It looks thicker than Super Floss, so I don't know if it will go into the spring as easily, but it's the cheapest thing to try.

Update: Ultra Floss works great on the Model F. Only tried a few keys. The echo of spring bouncing back is gone and nothing else is affected. 15mm is good.

Title: Buckling Spring Floss Mod
Post by: skcheng on Sun, 02 May 2010, 06:53:18

Quote from: ripster;177819

Specifics are in the megasound sample post.  I just had the equipment  lying around from guitar stuff.  USB mikes may have gotten better since the last time I looked.

Hey Rip,

I went back and listened to your sound samples and I think they are pretty much SPOT ON!!!   That's really pretty cool.   I need to get a good Mic setup in order to produce some instructional videos.   I'm researching what to get right now.  

In the meantime, do you have any Super Floss?   If so, could you please provide a sound sample?   It's so weird typing on a quiet Space Saving Mini.  I feel like saying, "this thread is worthless without Rip's sound clip"  :))

Meanwhile, I'm typing right now on an HHKB2 Pro and I keep hitting ``` instead of backspace/delete  LOL.   Otherwise, this is a REALLY cool little board......albeit a little small.   Already getting used to the layout and the key feel.    I'm not sure why this board feels so different from my Realforce 87U??   Still don't like the "almost Otaku" keys...especially on a board with an unusual layout.  

skc

Title: Buckling Spring Floss Mod
Post by: skcheng on Sun, 02 May 2010, 06:55:18

Quote from: aegrotatio;177997

Wow, I knew there was a good use for that fluffy floss I accidentally bought.  Thanks, I'll try this on one of my Model Ms.

Have you tried it yet??  What do you think??   Do you like it better?   I've simply come to the conclusion that it's different.   I'll keep my one board muffled.   Very effective, very simple mod.  

In the meantime, Super Floss is a really great floss......if you have larger embrasures or any bridgework.   Otherwise, regular floss or dentotape probably work just fine.

Title: Buckling Spring Floss Mod
Post by: skcheng on Sun, 02 May 2010, 07:00:34

Quote from: skcheng;178085

Have you tried it yet??  What do you think??   Do you like it better?   I've simply come to the conclusion that it's different.   I'll keep my one board muffled.   Very effective, very simple mod.  

In the meantime, Super Floss is a really great floss......if you have larger embrasures or any bridgework.   Otherwise, regular floss or dentotape probably work just fine.

According to some recent study, only 10% of dental patients actually floss on a regular basis.   So I say this to patients.  Floss three teeth and smell the floss.   If it smells nice and fresh, then you probably don't need to floss :)

Title: Buckling Spring Floss Mod
Post by: skcheng on Sun, 02 May 2010, 07:07:37

Quote from: EverythingIBM;178018

To make this "floss" mod more successful, I'd advise people to use the two-piece key set. I plucked some keys off of my model F, placed them on my model M, and noticed they were a lot more clattery than the two-piece keys for some reason. Although, they are a lot more responsive and feel more crisp. Strange how a two-piece cap system can be so different.

If you look closely at the Model F keys vs the Model M keys, you'll see that they're a little different.   The Model F keys sort of rotate and wobble a bit and the cylinders themselves are separate pieces that also wobble and spin slightly.   A much more fair comparison would be Model M one-piece vs. Model M two-piece keycaps.  

I prefer the Model M one-piece caps for a variety of reasons......mostly because I find them more responsive and crisp.  They're also easier to clean, remove, install etc....

Maybe we could get Rip to post some sound clips of one piece vs. two piece Model M caps?   They sound different too.  

In the meantime if anyone out there prefers the two piece keycaps, please PM me for a trade.   I look for Space Saving Minis these days with the one piece keycaps.   Seems random how IBM decided which caps go on which boards??

Title: And the winner is....
Post by: clickclack on Sun, 02 May 2010, 07:12:03

Quote from: skcheng;178088

According to some recent study, only 10% of dental patients actually floss on a regular basis.   So I say this to patients.  Floss three teeth and smell the floss.   If it smells nice and fresh, then you probably don't need to floss :)

This is perhaps one of the best quotes I have seen on geekhack!!! I just saw it randomly while scrolling the thread, it's just beautiful... ok I seriously need to go to bed...

*thumbs up again for the mod!!!!* =D

Title: Buckling Spring Floss Mod
Post by: skcheng on Sun, 02 May 2010, 07:15:39

Quote from: wellington1869;178000

few random things --
--sk, can you post sound samples of both 1x and 2x inserts?
--in my view no need to go nuts on recording setup because the average computer speaker wont reproduce it anyway.
--But hey, couldnt hurt, so if you have the time and money, sure, go nuts with the recording quality.
--yarn/wool string -- i wonder if that would work; if it did, its cheap and readily available.
--never had any issues with inconsistent sound quality with the grease mod (ie, from key to key?), but yea its not "fully" reversible.
--longevity of this mod is a question; how will floss or yarn or etc hold up in sound dampening characteristics after, say, 6 months of use? I guess some time will tell.
--the more methods there are available to dampen/mute mechanical boards, the better; personally i'm now curious about how different materials (like yarn) might work when stuffed into these springs. Could get quite creative in selecting and trying different materials, actually.  They'd probably give slightly different results, each of which would suit different people better or worse. So yea, the more methods there are (and sound samples/results uploaded and reviewed), the better for everyone.

thanks again sk; this kind of opens up a new branch of 'research'  ;)

Hey Welly,

I asked Rip if he would post a sound sample if/when he has the time to do so.   The difference is really not subtle.

I haven't tried doubling up on the floss yet, but I'm happy with just one piece inside the spring.  

I think trying to put yarn down the spring would be a total PITA.   The Super Floss has some tension to it, so it simply drops down the spring as long it was cut cleanly.   Can't be any easier than that.

skc

Title: Buckling Spring Floss Mod
Post by: skcheng on Sun, 02 May 2010, 07:28:40

Quote from: clickclack;178091

This is perhaps one of the best quotes I have seen on geekhack!!! I just saw it randomly while scrolling the thread, it's just beautiful... ok I seriously need to go to bed...

*thumbs up again for the mod!!!!* =D

Hey.....I saw your response over on the off topic Health Care thread.  Thanks for the taking the time.   I promise to respond thoroughly at some point today.   I find that most people don't have a clue with regards to health care.  Hell.....most of my patients count on "us" to provide info regarding benefits, max allowed, and half the patients don't even know the difference btwn dental and medical benefits LOL.  

So when patients complain to me that we need to overhaul healthcare and then proceed to tell me that our government should and will foot the bill (!@$@%@????), I immediately attempt to divert the conversation over to mechanical keyboards. :)

On another note, when do I get some keys dammit  :))

I'd like to pay a premium for some prototypes, one-offs, and some hand signed collectibles.   Have money for keycaps......will spend!!  

skc

Title: Buckling Spring Floss Mod
Post by: skcheng on Sun, 02 May 2010, 07:35:12

Quote from: phoenix;178068

I finally did this to all the keys on my Model M Mini. To try something new I did it with Ultra Floss instead of Super Floss :)

http://www.amazon.com/Oral-B-Ultra-Floss-Dental-Original/dp/B000GGJCFW (less than $5 at CVS.)

Unlike Super Floss, Ultra floss comes in long, 18-inch (0.45m) strands. One pack gives you 55 yards = 50 meters. I only needed 3 strands for the whole board. It is about 2/3 as thick as super floss, so I cut them slightly longer, roughly 15~16mm, to fill the spring.

Since it's thinner, it doesn't remove as much reverberation but enough to make a difference. The click is still very present, and I can safely say that key feel is unaffected.

CVS has its own store brand fluffy floss that's less than $3 a pack. It looks thicker than Super Floss, so I don't know if it will go into the spring as easily, but it's the cheapest thing to try.

Update: Ultra Floss works great on the Model F. Only tried a few keys. The echo of spring bouncing back is gone and nothing else is affected. 15mm is good.

I forgot about Ultra Floss.   Would be easier to use for mod purposes.   And you won't have a ton of fishing leads left when you're done.  

I want to know how to increase the sound levels on my Model AT F.   I was typing on mine yesterday just cracking myself up at how loud it is.   My wife thinks I've lost it  :)    Dammit......I keep hitting ``` instead of Backspace on the HHKB2.  

On another note.......STOP PROCRASTINATING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!  Just took me 5 minutes to find the Caps Lock LOL.  

Nothing like messing with a new keyboard first thing on a Sunday morn.  The simple pleasures in life.

Title: Buckling Spring Floss Mod
Post by: EverythingIBM on Sun, 02 May 2010, 16:26:31

Quote from: skcheng;178090

If you look closely at the Model F keys vs the Model M keys, you'll see that they're a little different.   The Model F keys sort of rotate and wobble a bit and the cylinders themselves are separate pieces that also wobble and spin slightly.   A much more fair comparison would be Model M one-piece vs. Model M two-piece keycaps.  

I prefer the Model M one-piece caps for a variety of reasons......mostly because I find them more responsive and crisp.  They're also easier to clean, remove, install etc....

Maybe we could get Rip to post some sound clips of one piece vs. two piece Model M caps?   They sound different too.  

In the meantime if anyone out there prefers the two piece keycaps, please PM me for a trade.   I look for Space Saving Minis these days with the one piece keycaps.   Seems random how IBM decided which caps go on which boards??

You could... uh... always order some from unicomp.
But I like two-piece keys.

Title: Buckling Spring Floss Mod
Post by: skcheng on Sun, 02 May 2010, 20:13:20

Quote from: EverythingIBM;178239

You could... uh... always order some from unicomp.
But I like two-piece keys.

Unicomp only has two piece standard beige/grey Model M keys.   And as Chuck always reminds me, once they run out, they will be much more expensive than they are now.  

I know a lot of Geekhackers prefer the two piece keys.

Title: Buckling Spring Floss Mod
Post by: salcan on Mon, 03 May 2010, 19:51:18

Playing around with this floss thing. Using the Ultra floss. I'm putting about an inch of floss in the springs. I'm using 1pc keys on the M13.

So far my result are OK, not drastic. The result is a lot less pingy. It's a bit quieter, not at all silent. The keys seem to require the same amount of force but they feel a little less lively than before, a bit more dull than than they previously were.

The spring-ping on the rebound is totally gone, which is a big win for this method.

Link (embed is being weird) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ytkfiOAJNZA

Any suggests? I'm going to keep experimenting.

Title: Buckling Spring Floss Mod
Post by: phoenix on Mon, 03 May 2010, 20:30:07

Quote from: salcan;178659

Playing around with this floss thing. Using the Ultra floss. I'm putting about an inch of floss in the springs. I'm using 1pc keys on the M13.

So far my result are OK, not drastic. The result is a lot less pingy. It's a bit quieter, not at all silent. The keys seem to require the same amount of force but they feel a little less lively than before, a bit more dull than than they previously were.

The spring-ping on the rebound is totally gone, which is a big win for this method.

Link (embed is being weird) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ytkfiOAJNZA

Any suggests? I'm going to keep experimenting.

Thanks for the video! From what I heard it seems most of the noise is coming from the cap bottoming out hard. The floss doesn't reduce the noise from the cap hitting the barrel on the way down (washers can help) or up (AFAIK nothing helps). Super Floss is more effective at reducing noise than Ultra Floss because it's thicker. 2x Super Floss will also require you to use more force to bottom out, which indirectly reduces bottom-out noise. Though that's quieter, I suspect you won't like it because it does not feel like a Model M any more, more like a Cheery brown with a super heavy spring...

Title: Buckling Spring Floss Mod
Post by: wellington1869 on Mon, 03 May 2010, 21:01:44

Quote from: salcan;178659

Playing around with this floss thing. Using the Ultra floss. I'm putting about an inch of floss in the springs. I'm using 1pc keys on the M13.

So far my result are OK, not drastic. The result is a lot less pingy. It's a bit quieter, not at all silent. The keys seem to require the same amount of force but they feel a little less lively than before, a bit more dull than than they previously were.

The spring-ping on the rebound is totally gone, which is a big win for this method.

Link (embed is being weird) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ytkfiOAJNZA

Any suggests? I'm going to keep experimenting.

didnt you also do grease mod? if so you might be the only person who's done both. comparo thoughts?

Title: Buckling Spring Floss Mod
Post by: salcan on Mon, 03 May 2010, 21:17:00

wellie- haven't greased it yet. I've shifted that to the last resort given how hard it would be to reverse.

just a quick note as i add more floss strands--my biggest problem seems to be length of the strands. The difference of a few millimeters will bring a key press from close to full volume (see video above) to muted to nearly silent (very much like a cherry brown) to linear. Yea- you put enough in there and there is no distinguishable click.

For this to be my fill time board I'd have to get the letter keys really close to one another, which could take some time...

Title: Buckling Spring Floss Mod
Post by: wellington1869 on Mon, 03 May 2010, 21:28:41

Quote from: salcan;178676

wellie- haven't greased it yet. I've shifted that to the last resort given how hard it would be to reverse.

true dat, one has to commit to it. Unless an M can survive a session in the dishwasher with the keys off :)
the floss solution intrigues me, but my feeling is grease may allow more tactility to remain (when used moderately and if you're okay with not reversing it etc). I'd like to try floss for myself except i've sold all my mech boards, lol. I'll have to wait till I come back around to them eventually.
Thanks for the video btw. The pinging is gone it sounds like. Like you say its not drastic though. maybe 2x is the ticket.

Title: Buckling Spring Floss Mod
Post by: clickclack on Tue, 04 May 2010, 04:30:38

Quote from: skcheng;178096

Hey.....I saw your response over on the off topic Health Care thread.  Thanks for the taking the time.   I promise to respond thoroughly at some point today.   I find that most people don't have a clue with regards to health care.  Hell.....most of my patients count on "us" to provide info regarding benefits, max allowed, and half the patients don't even know the difference btwn dental and medical benefits LOL.  

So when patients complain to me that we need to overhaul healthcare and then proceed to tell me that our government should and will foot the bill (!@$@%@????), I immediately attempt to divert the conversation over to mechanical keyboards. :)

On another note, when do I get some keys dammit  :))

I'd like to pay a premium for some prototypes, one-offs, and some hand signed collectibles.   Have money for keycaps......will spend!!  

skc

PMed!!!
=)

Title: Buckling Spring Floss Mod
Post by: skcheng on Tue, 04 May 2010, 07:29:54

Quote from: webwit;178730

These health care professionals make faaar too much money ;)

Tis true :)   But unfortunately not enough to purchase fancy metal keycaps to properly adorn our keyboards  LOL

Title: Buckling Spring Floss Mod
Post by: skcheng on Tue, 04 May 2010, 08:12:28

Quote from: skcheng;178322

Unicomp only has two piece standard beige/grey Model M keys.   And as Chuck always reminds me, once they run out, they will be much more expensive than they are now.  

I know a lot of Geekhackers prefer the two piece keys.

Cool stuff Salcan.  Pretty Geeky.....but cool  :))  

I will say that using Super Floss on my board appears to dampen out noise MUCH more effectively than what I hear from your vid.   Pick up some Super Floss and let me know what you think?  Or I can send you some.  

Thanks for posting the vid and contributing to this thread.   Otherwise, this thread is meaningless without a Youtube clip or one of Ripster's sound bites.

skc

Title: Buckling Spring Floss Mod
Post by: skcheng on Tue, 04 May 2010, 09:25:20

Quote from: ripster;178777

Hey, I LIKE it!  This mod definitely appears to work better than the grease mod.  UltraFloss dampens the sound more than grease or the nut/bolt mod.  Not Topre silent though - that's a bit of an exaggeration.

> type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344">[/youtube]


I'll post some sound samples later.

Did you try a double upped piece??    And I'm thinking that the thicker Super Floss is probably more effective at noise supression than the Ultra Floss.

Title: Buckling Spring Floss Mod
Post by: wellington1869 on Tue, 04 May 2010, 11:01:44

Quote from: ripster;178777

Hey, I LIKE it!  This mod definitely appears to work better than the grease mod.  UltraFloss dampens the sound more than grease or the nut/bolt mod.  Not Topre silent though - that's a bit of an exaggeration.

I'll post some sound samples later.

cool. is that 2x ultra? wonder how it compares to super.
hows the tactility?

Title: Buckling Spring Floss Mod
Post by: salcan on Tue, 04 May 2010, 11:55:41

Last night I spend some time tweaking individual keys--adding about 2mm of can bring you from the level I record at in my video to something more like what skcheng was talking about. Something almost like a cherry brown but with a more tactile click. I'm not sure that I'll ever get them all exactly the same though!

btw- I've only been using Ultra. They don't seem to sell Super around me. I haven't doubled it up-that would be too much. I'm just tweaking the length of each piece.

Title: Buckling Spring Floss Mod
Post by: skcheng on Tue, 04 May 2010, 12:06:09

Quote from: salcan;178852

Last night I spend some time tweaking individual keys--adding about 2mm of can bring you from the level I record at in my video to something more like what skcheng was talking about. Something almost like a cherry brown but with a more tactile click. I'm not sure that I'll ever get them all exactly the same though!

btw- I've only been using Ultra. They don't seem to sell Super around me. I haven't doubled it up-that would be too much. I'm just tweaking the length of each piece.

I'll drop some Super Floss in the mail to you today/tomorrow.  

skc

Title: Buckling Spring Floss Mod
Post by: salcan on Tue, 04 May 2010, 13:21:39

Quote from: ripster;178857

The Oral-B Ultrafloss in the plastic pack is thicker than the SuperFloss in the box with the braces threader end.

I didn't hear much difference in your video.  Might be your microphone.

> type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="560" height="340">[/youtube]

The difference is mostly at the end, at 0:23. I'll post another video later with some tweaked updated floss lengths, where I muted them more.

Sorry that cam doesn't use an external mic and I'm too lazy to get out my USB mic.

Title: Buckling Spring Floss Mod
Post by: salcan on Tue, 04 May 2010, 14:20:10

Another try on the video:

> type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="560" height="340">[/youtube]

Take two, with a stock key and then one with just about as much floss as possible before it goes non-tactile.

This time I ranged from a light key press to really banging on them, they way you'd might hit backspace too hard. You can tell the difference mostly on the light presses though.

Title: Buckling Spring Floss Mod
Post by: skcheng on Fri, 07 May 2010, 11:25:50

BTW, I tried this mod on my PC AT Model F keyboard.  It turns the twangy Model F into almost a Model M.   I quickly pulled the floss out and promised myself to never again commit such a horrible sin!!!

Title: Buckling Spring Floss Mod
Post by: skcheng on Sat, 05 June 2010, 13:55:41

Update.  I finally took the time to Super Floss an entire Mini board.  I like it.  Feels the same, but gets rid of the Model M ping.   Not entirely silent, but much quieter than a standard Model M.  I also jammed two pieces into the space bar to lessen the thock.  

Simple, easy mod and very reversible.

I picked up a "soft" touch Model M with the greased springs.  Should be interesting to compare the two.

Title: Buckling Spring Floss Mod
Post by: kishy on Sat, 05 June 2010, 13:58:34

Nooooo! The ping is what makes it fun!

BTW, discovered a pretty severely jammed hammer (F9) on the mini from you. Took some aggressive screwdriver-ing to free it, but all is good now.

Title: Buckling Spring Floss Mod
Post by: skcheng on Sat, 05 June 2010, 14:02:42

Quote from: kishy;189950

Nooooo! The ping is what makes it fun!

BTW, discovered a pretty severely jammed hammer (F9) on the mini from you. Took some aggressive screwdriver-ing to free it, but all is good now.

That's weird.  I checked all of the keys before shipping that sucker.  I wonder how that happened??

Title: Buckling Spring Floss Mod
Post by: kishy on Sat, 05 June 2010, 14:05:33

Quote from: skcheng;189952

That's weird.  I checked all of the keys before shipping that sucker.  I wonder how that happened??

Probably in shipping. BS hammers are known to become unsettled during shipping. I tested all keys when it arrived and it felt normal but the hammer on F9 wasn't actually pivoting, it was stuck in the actuated position (almost actuated, such that tapping the keyboard in that area resulted in an F9 keypress). Since F9 doesn't do anything normally I hadn't noticed until I started pressing the key for no reason and realized it sounded weird.

That's also directly beside a broken rivet, one of the epoxied ones. At first I was concerned epoxy might have stuck it like that but the membrane would be in the way.

Title: Buckling Spring Floss Mod
Post by: MissileMike on Wed, 11 August 2010, 11:30:56

I have an improvement to this mod!

http://www.cvs.com/CVSApp/catalog/shop_product_detail.jsp?skuId=198895&productId=198895&WT.mc_id=Shopping_Feed_Products_Google_Free_Listing

If you use this floss, and cut it off so it sits flush to the top of the spring, you can eliminate 100% of the buckling spring click, but retain the same feel of the keyboard.  You have to thin out this floss with your fingertips before inserting to the spring, but the result is amazing.  The only sound is the key bottoming out.

Title: Buckling Spring Floss Mod
Post by: instantkamera on Wed, 11 August 2010, 20:29:12

This is actually a pretty cool and simple mod, I may try it. Anyone know where to get that **** in Canada, say shoppers or something?

Title: Buckling Spring Floss Mod
Post by: doebedoe on Thu, 27 January 2011, 15:18:29

Just did my first floss-mod to a particularly pingy Model M. Used Super Floss per th tutorial, which I found at my local CVS for under $4. Plenty left-over to mod my m13 when it arrives.

I haven't noticed much of a different in the feel of keys, still very tactile. Click on the way down is still quite nice. Just no key-release pings. Where I cut a piece of floss too long, some deadening or extra stiffness is noticeable -- but those keys were easy to fix by just taking a few millimeters off.

Thanks for this really clever, simple and reversible mod.

Title: Oral-B Superfloss Can't Simply be Dropped into Unicomp Buckling Springs
Post by: turkey on Fri, 22 April 2011, 05:43:12

Geez, I'm not sure how you guys are having such an easy time simply snipping off floss and dropping it straight down into those buckling springs. I bought the same Oral-B Superfloss that skcheng showed in his starting post, but I am finding that the Unicomp buckling springs have an inner diameter that is smaller than the outer diameter of the Oral-B Superfloss' fuzzy section. The fuzzy section simply refuses to just simply be dropped down the interior of the springs.

I practically have to use the stiff section of the Oral-B Superfloss to stuff the fuzzy section into a spring's interior. Doing so is a rather tedious effort — stuffing two springs took thirty minutes, and there're a hundred more springs to go!

Also, I am finding that I can't really tell whether or not the spring has been fully stuffed with the fuzzy section of the Oral-B Superfloss just by looking, so the only thing I can do is to keep pushing more in with the stiff section of the Oral-B Superfloss until even that buckles (pardon the pun) under the strain. Stuffing just two springs in this way uses up the entire fuzzy section of a single strand of Oral-B Superfloss. Key response is still very good with no stiffness and the tactile click is still present, but the metallic ping of the spring is gone. At this rate, I will have to buy another box of Oral-B Superfloss to be able to stuff the last four springs.

I guess I could buy the thinner Oral-B Ultrafloss — perhaps that is the kind that can be just dropped straight into the springs, without having to resort to stuffing.

Title: Approximate Floss Length for Unicomp Buckling Springs
Post by: turkey on Mon, 09 April 2012, 00:59:41

Okay, skcheng was definitely right about needing a sharp pair of scissors to snip the Oral-B Superfloss, as a clean cut greatly reduces any blooming or mushrooming of the cut ends. I used a pair of FISKARS Micro-Tip Scissors (with titanium nitride coating) to make the cuts. The cut floss can then be dropped into the centre of the buckling springs without any problems.

I've also found out that the length of the floss needed for the Unicomp buckling springs is approximately 16mm ± 0·5mm. Each strand of Oral-B Superfloss will yield six or seven pieces of this length of floss from its fuzzy section, more than enough for two entire 104-key Unicomp buckling spring keyboards.

Title: Buckling Spring Floss Mod
Post by: tobydeemer on Sat, 16 June 2012, 21:14:33

Hey everyone-

While I hate to bring back a zombie thread yet again, this one seems like a common "periodically updated" kind of thing. In any event, I tried the Superfloss on my 1987 Model M. And I am genuinely surprised at how real the difference is. From various audio clips I'd come across, I wasn't sure how noticeable it would be. There's still the overall noise from the occasional bottoming out,  and the space bar clatter though it is still more muted. But the "pinginess" is almost completely gone. I've taken to using one of a couple scissor boards at work, due to the noise. Now however, I think I'd be able to get the M back in there where it belongs.  :-)

For the mod, I used a 'full length' measure of floss. I took a strand, snipped off the longer non-foam string and used the shorter stiff end as a sort of handle. Then I fed into a spring, snipped off right at the top, and replaced the key. Did the whole board in maybe 45 minutes or so. Wasn't tracking too closely. Anyway, the feel is no more stiff than before, and if anything, is a little... smoother, maybe?

All in all, I am actually really impressed with this mod, which seems to be a common reaction. Good bang for the buck and the effort, for sure.

Just my $.02.

Heh, if I really get the bug, I'll go for some dampening rubber sheets and a bolt mod. One mod at a time.

Cheers.

Title: Buckling Spring Floss Mod
Post by: fohat.digs on Sun, 17 June 2012, 07:46:15

I have been raving about the ease and effectiveness of this mod for months.

When I get out my unflossed M/Fs, they feel great and all, but the sound gets to me eventually. There is a solidity added to the feel in spite of the noise reduction, probably related to "chatter" or "resonance" whatever word you use to define that concept.

Floss for buckling springs and o-rings for Cherries are the mods that are near-essential in my book, now.

PS - you have to make a clean cut and hit the insertion on the first try. after you bunch up the fibers on the leading end you are unlikely to succeed, unless you just get lucky.

Title: Re: Buckling Spring Floss Mod
Post by: urbanus on Tue, 24 July 2012, 08:10:56

Quote from: turkey on Fri, 22 April 2011, 05:43:12

I guess I could buy the thinner Oral-B Ultrafloss — perhaps that is the kind that can be just dropped straight into the springs, without having to resort to stuffing.

I'd like to report success with Ultra Floss.

It doesn't exactly drop straight in, but it slides in with little difficulty (sometimes requiring a couple of attempts).  The effect is as reported here: the ping is gone, and the click is slightly softer.  I don't think it affects the feel of the keys much, if at all.  It also masks some of the subtle variations in sounds between different keys that you typically find on model M boards.

The effect on old silver label and white label model Ms is more pronounced than on Unicomp boards, because Unicomps ping less.  However even for Unicomps it's a noticeable enhancement.

Title: Re: Buckling Spring Floss Mod
Post by: fabioruxo on Tue, 16 July 2013, 10:56:50

Just applied the mod to my 1991 model M. I must say I love it! Ultra floss is the way to go for me (tried super but got no real significant change). I have cut the floss to be exactly the same length as the springs themselves and maintained the click sound but got rid completely of the loud metallic spring resonance. Two things: 1) The feel is slightly different to me. It's like I used to bottom out more often without the mod.. while now the keys feel a little "softer" and it's as if they sprung back quicker and keeping closer to the surface (they feel more like cherry browns, but sound more like blues). It might be just my personal feeling though. 2) The sound is way different. It's a little more "muffled" and even more "plastic" than before (because the metallic spring clang is mostly gone) but I must say I love it this way. And it sure is better at night when my 2yr old daughter is asleep ;-)

Title: Re: Buckling Spring Floss Mod
Post by: unicomp_uc on Wed, 30 October 2013, 20:39:20

Bringing back a dead thread to simply say: I just did this mod on my Unicomp and what an awesome difference. I love the tactile feel of the keys, but unless you are an ultimate die hard; the ping and reverberation can be come a bit much at times (exasperated when you are hungover, tired, have a headache, are irritated, etc. lol).

This mod has turned my Uni from a fun, side board to a legitimate contender for desk time with my HHKB... Good stuff!

Title: Re: Buckling Spring Floss Mod
Post by: cub3y on Mon, 25 November 2013, 00:44:29

Im going to try this on my Model M keyboard. I just got my first mx mechanical board a few days ago (Filco Majestouch 2 with cherry mx browns) and while its amazing, it doesn't seem to compare to the feel of this board.

Will post my results once I can find some of this "fluffy" floss

Title: Re: Buckling Spring Floss Mod
Post by: fohat.digs on Mon, 25 November 2013, 08:22:11

Quote from: cub3y on Mon, 25 November 2013, 00:44:29

Will post my results once I can find some of this "fluffy" floss

At Walgreens it is about $5 and that is enough to do at least a couple of boards.

Title: Re: Buckling Spring Floss Mod
Post by: GeorgeK on Wed, 22 January 2014, 11:32:51

Thought I should resurrect this thread rather than start a new one :))

I'm currently in the process of floss modding my SSK after having given it a clean and the keycaps a good denture bath at the weekend - the difference is amazing :D  You still get the click and the tactile feel but without anything ringing like a bell!  I'd suggest it to anyone with the patience to do it - in my experience it's very temperamental - too much floss and you lose the click altogether...  Here's a video comparing before and after

and a nice (albeit potato) work in progress pic

(http://i.imgur.com/dmAcKo2.jpg)

Title: Re: Buckling Spring Floss Mod
Post by: dgreekstallion on Sun, 09 February 2014, 22:13:01

Bumping this good thread.

Title: Re: Buckling Spring Floss Mod
Post by: Photoelectric on Sun, 09 February 2014, 22:21:21

Quote from: GeorgeK on Wed, 22 January 2014, 11:32:51

Thought I should resurrect this thread rather than start a new one :))

I'm currently in the process of floss modding my SSK after having given it a clean and the keycaps a good denture bath at the weekend - the difference is amazing :D  You still get the click and the tactile feel but without anything ringing like a bell!  I'd suggest it to anyone with the patience to do it - in my experience it's very temperamental - too much floss and you lose the click altogether...  Here's a video comparing before and after

"This video is private" :(

Title: Re: Buckling Spring Floss Mod
Post by: aref on Fri, 14 February 2014, 17:34:56

I did this mod to a formerly owned Lexmark manufactured Model M, it took the ping out of the keyboard. I found my Lexmark-made full-size Model M to sound much 'pingier' than IBM-manufactured full-size Model Ms. After the mod, the Lexmark Model M sounded much like Unicomp's contemporary buckling-spring keyboards, 'pingless'.

Title: Re: Buckling Spring Floss Mod
Post by: fohat.digs on Fri, 14 February 2014, 18:51:49

I think that it just attenuates the higher overtones. This is a much nicer and more satisfying mod on an F than an M.

Since the spring buckles in the middle, the floss needs to fill more than half of the height, and if it is any bit longer than the spring the stem will not seat properly (you would think that it would simply compress the floss, but no).

There are surprising variations of effect across that 60%-100% fill range.

Title: Re: Buckling Spring Floss Mod
Post by: JPG on Tue, 25 February 2014, 00:20:40

I tried this mod after I started to use my F122 at job and I must say that it's amazing. You still ear the sound of the bottom out and some of the click when you actuate, yet it removes the ping/thing that resonates after and possibly lower the click of the actuation, but if so not by much. Yet it's still effective at making it not too loud and it still retains all the nice same feeling of the switches.

Also, very easy to do. Cut the pieces, put them in the spring, put the keycap back and your done!

BTW, I used super floss since it was the only available near me.

Title: Re: Buckling Spring Floss Mod
Post by: Pacifist on Tue, 25 February 2014, 00:33:51

I'm too lazy to go to rite aid :))

Should I get one pack: http://www.ebay.com/itm/Oral-B-Super-Floss-50-pre-cut-strands-Dental-Floss-Damaged-box-/310872983771?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item48617948db

or 4 pack? http://www.ebay.com/itm/Oral-B-Super-Floss-4-Packs-200-Pre-Cut-Strands-New-SEALED-Damaged-Boxes-SAVE-/191067612041?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item2c7c846389

for one F XT, one M-122, and M-104?

Title: Re: Buckling Spring Floss Mod
Post by: JPG on Tue, 25 February 2014, 00:47:48

You might be ok with one box, but it's hard to tell. 2 for sure, 3 I don't know but I really think so.

Title: Re: Buckling Spring Floss Mod
Post by: Pacifist on Tue, 25 February 2014, 00:59:18

I'll grab the four pack, its much worth my money anyways :p

Title: Re: Buckling Spring Floss Mod
Post by: fohat.digs on Tue, 25 February 2014, 06:26:47

Quote from: JPG on Tue, 25 February 2014, 00:20:40

Cut the pieces, put them in the spring, put the keycap back and your done!

If you have a small very sharp pair of scissors, I recommend putting the floss in whole and cutting it just at the top of the spring.

Title: Re: Buckling Spring Floss Mod
Post by: GeorgeK on Tue, 03 June 2014, 12:17:57

I'm thinking of un floss modding my ssk.  Not sure I like how it's made the springs / switches / whatever feel much heavier.  I'd have to go back to it pinging like crazy but that may be the price to pay for it feeling 'right' again...  Anyone else swapped back?

Edit:

Quote from: Photoelectric on Sun, 09 February 2014, 22:21:21

Quote from: GeorgeK on Wed, 22 January 2014, 11:32:51

Thought I should resurrect this thread rather than start a new one :))

I'm currently in the process of floss modding my SSK after having given it a clean and the keycaps a good denture bath at the weekend - the difference is amazing :D  You still get the click and the tactile feel but without anything ringing like a bell!  I'd suggest it to anyone with the patience to do it - in my experience it's very temperamental - too much floss and you lose the click altogether...  Here's a video comparing before and after

"This video is private" :(

Not sure why it's doing that tbh - will try to fix...

Edit 2:  Fixed I think

Title: Re: Buckling Spring Floss Mod
Post by: Rainman on Wed, 02 July 2014, 18:14:14

Amazing mod... quick and effective. Thanks ;)

Title: Re: Buckling Spring Floss Mod
Post by: kako on Tue, 08 July 2014, 15:32:58

I used one strand of the super floss to mod 7 different keys - while it does take a lot of noise away, it also changes the mechanics a lot. The whole thing becomes softer and more numb and therefore provides less feedback. The worst for me is that it changes the height at which the spring collapses. Modded keys trigger sooner - if you press a modded and unmodded key down slowly at same rate, modded key will click first.

At least thats my experience (on restored, bolt modded ssk).

Title: Re: Buckling Spring Floss Mod
Post by: fohat.digs on Tue, 08 July 2014, 15:50:55

Quote from: kako on Tue, 08 July 2014, 15:32:58

The whole thing becomes softer and more numb and therefore provides less feedback.

This is why the mod is far less successful on the already-numb M than on the too-lively F.

Quote from: kako on Tue, 08 July 2014, 15:32:58

The worst for me is that it changes the height at which the spring collapses. Modded keys trigger sooner - if you press a modded and unmodded key down slowly at same rate, modded key will click first.

To me, this is a big plus. I like high actuation points.

Also, the amount of floss has a big effect. It needs to come up halfway, because that is where the spring buckles. But there are big differences between 60%-70%-80%-90%-100% floss fills.

Title: Re: Buckling Spring Floss Mod
Post by: kako on Tue, 08 July 2014, 16:41:10

Quote from: fohat.digs on Tue, 08 July 2014, 15:50:55

To me, this is a big plus. I like high actuation points.

Also, the amount of floss has a big effect. It needs to come up halfway, because that is where the spring buckles. But there are big differences between 60%-70%-80%-90%-100% floss fills.

Sure. I don't want to rain on your parade, just providing some feedback on my experience.

I did try to cut one at about 50% and yes there is some difference - its looking a bit more promising but too early to tell from only one key. I need to figure out how to get the half strand out first, before I apply it to more keys. Seems hard to reach, maybe with vacuum cleaner.

Title: Re: Buckling Spring Floss Mod
Post by: fohat.digs on Tue, 08 July 2014, 17:38:55

Quote from: kako on Tue, 08 July 2014, 16:41:10

I need to figure out how to get the half strand out first, before I apply it to more keys. Seems hard to reach, maybe with vacuum cleaner.

Get a pin or needle and bend an extremely small hook in the end of it.

Or, if you fish, straighten out a hook and use the barb.

Title: Re: Buckling Spring Floss Mod
Post by: kako on Wed, 09 July 2014, 12:45:34

Quote from: fohat.digs on Tue, 08 July 2014, 17:38:55

Quote from: kako on Tue, 08 July 2014, 16:41:10

I need to figure out how to get the half strand out first, before I apply it to more keys. Seems hard to reach, maybe with vacuum cleaner.

Get a pin or needle and bend an extremely small hook in the end of it.

Or, if you fish, straighten out a hook and use the barb.

Yes that worked out ok. For now I am back to completley flossless though.

Title: Re: Buckling Spring Floss Mod
Post by: HipsterPunks on Fri, 05 September 2014, 14:22:47

All Aboard the Necro Train!

i decided to floss mod my 87' SSK yesterday so i shot a short video for those on the fence about whether or not they want to try it.
Alphas + Modifiers (minus the FRow) are flossed. Thanks for this how to skcheng i didnt think i could enjoy this board anymore until i felt 1piece caps w/ the floss mod

Title: Re: Buckling Spring Floss Mod
Post by: dustinhxc on Fri, 05 September 2014, 14:33:21

Quote from: HipsterPunks on Fri, 05 September 2014, 14:22:47

All Aboard the Necro Train!

i decided to floss mod my 87' SSK yesterday so i shot a short video for those on the fence about whether or not they want to try it.
Alphas + Modifiers (minus the FRow) are flossed. Thanks for this how to skcheng i didnt think i could enjoy this board anymore until i felt 1piece caps w/ the floss mod

Hell Yeah, nice video man. Good job.. Also nice SSK!

Title: Re: Buckling Spring Floss Mod
Post by: Hypersphere on Fri, 05 September 2014, 15:03:30

Did the floss mod on my IBM Model F XT. Used 14-mm pieces from the fuzzy section of Oral-B Super Floss. It completely removed the "ping", but I still get a nice metallic click and excellent tactile feedback. No problems. Highly recommended.

Title: Re: Buckling Spring Floss Mod
Post by: snoopy on Fri, 05 September 2014, 15:45:11

Floss mod on F is even more awesome than on M (since my F is ready, I didn't even touch one of my SSKs)

Title: Re: Buckling Spring Floss Mod
Post by: fohat.digs on Fri, 05 September 2014, 17:05:40

In my opinion, the Model F seems "alive" because it has 3 plates in compression and tension, steel-to-fiberglass-to-steel, created during the assembly process, while the Model M feels "limpid" at best because it has only 2, plastic-to-steel, with a "blanket" between them.

In terms of feel, the Model F takes a very small hit with flossing, and remains completely "alive" regardless. The Model M does not lose much spring, but starts from a much lower level.

In terms of sound, the F has many high pinging resonant overtones, which flossing dampens considerably, without changing the lower resonant base. The M, dampened by rubber/plastic already, has little to lose, and loses little.

(http://i.imgur.com/ZjkBTsi.jpg)

(http://i.imgur.com/2SMbP5A.jpg)

Title: Re: Buckling Spring Floss Mod
Post by: Oobly on Thu, 11 September 2014, 03:44:40

So badly want a Model F now...

I floss modded my M with full length pieces. It's too "dead" for my taste so I'll be shortening them a bit. It's nice that it's a "tweakable" mod :)

Title: Re: Buckling Spring Floss Mod
Post by: Melvang on Wed, 28 October 2015, 23:03:17

Good sized Necro, but just wanted to throw up my floss modded video in the mix for my modded AT.

Title: Re: Buckling Spring Floss Mod
Post by: Kad on Thu, 29 October 2015, 19:35:33

Quote from: Melvang on Wed, 28 October 2015, 23:03:17

Good sized Necro, but just wanted to throw up my floss modded video in the mix for my modded AT.

Great video! This seems like a pretty cool idea. Does it feel any different to type on floss-modded buckling springs or is it mainly just an auditory difference?

Title: Re: Buckling Spring Floss Mod
Post by: Melvang on Thu, 29 October 2015, 21:17:05

Quote from: Kad on Thu, 29 October 2015, 19:35:33

Quote from: Melvang on Wed, 28 October 2015, 23:03:17

Good sized Necro, but just wanted to throw up my floss modded video in the mix for my modded AT.

Great video! This seems like a pretty cool idea. Does it feel any different to type on floss-modded buckling springs or is it mainly just an auditory difference?

It does affect it a tiny bit.  But I am doing this with F internals.  From what I have seen it affects the feel more and the auditory less with M internals.  I have not tried this on an M personally so I can't account for that. 

Title: Re: Buckling Spring Floss Mod
Post by: protoword on Sun, 06 December 2020, 21:21:16

Thank you for this wonderful mod! Like others I realized that too much floss (up to the tip) can mess with the buckle. I snipped it down a wee bit. I then got neurotic about inconsistency across my modification-snips. But I'm trying not to be insane haha. Did it to my alphabet keys + spacebar but I let the others be. I enjoy the twang on my more seldom used keys. This is brilliant—thanks again!