Author Topic: KBC keyboard needs your advice  (Read 11939 times)

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Offline itlnstln

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KBC keyboard needs your advice
« Reply #90 on: Fri, 18 June 2010, 10:29:38 »
It looks like my phone's keyboard.


Offline aegrotatio

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KBC keyboard needs your advice
« Reply #91 on: Fri, 18 June 2010, 22:57:06 »
I have to say, the BTC-5100C / SIIG Minitouch Plus (non-clicky) keyboards have close to the perfect layout.  That's why I have five of them.
Daily Drivers: Ducky DK1087XM || DSI ASK-6600 || Rosewill RK-9000 BL, BR, BL, and RE || ABS M1 || Das Keyboard Silent || HHKB Lite and Lite 2 || DSI Big Font (kids love it)
Yearning for: Any ALPS keyboard || Any tenkeyless mechanical keyboard
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Retired collection: SIIG MiniTouch Monterey Blue || Razer BlackWidow

Offline clickclack

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« Reply #92 on: Sat, 19 June 2010, 05:40:03 »
Quote from: imsto;194190
my man, I am still puzzled.... the difference of thinking between us maybe.
Is that that I said "our factory" and "the factory in Taiwan" that makes your question?

I think I am just as confused as you (perhaps more so)
Essentially I am confused about these things-
KBT
KBC
enthusiasts
manufacturer
Designs
Distributers/marketers

There seems to be some crossover and some contradicting information. I can further refine this if necessary.

Quote from: imsto;194192

thank u so much that type so many words and cost me half an hour to read it. and have't got all with my shi* English.

Ouch! I hope that was a lost in translation thing again. I mean the thread is titled "KBC keyboard needs your advice".

Quote from: ripster;194311
I'm not old fashioned like you guys.
My thumbs have evolved to a higher level.

ORLY?
Are these those same thumbs??? Mutation/evolution, meh, same finger different thimble =D
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Offline imsto

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« Reply #93 on: Sat, 19 June 2010, 08:22:14 »
Quote from: clickclack;194627
ORLY?
Are these those same thumbs??? Mutation/evolution, meh, same finger different thimble =D


Oh,man! it looks sick...
IBM Model M*3, IBM M13,M5, IBM with balls.Cherry   3000  3494 3700 4100*6 700*2 11900 8113 DAS4 TG3 KBC PokerDucky09Ducky1087 apple pink alps Ducky bull,tiger,rabbit,dragon version No:0000002
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Offline chimera15

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« Reply #94 on: Sat, 19 June 2010, 08:42:08 »
Quote from: imsto;194651
Oh,man! it looks sick...


Yeah, he's got right hands growing out of his left hand, that's just wrong, they should be tiny left hands, what is he, a mutant?
Alps boards:
white real complicated: 1x modified siiig minitouch kb1903,  hhkb light2 english steampunk hack, wireless siig minitouch hack
white with rubber damper(cream)+clicky springs: 2x modified siig minitouch kb1903 1x modified siig minitouch kb1948
white fake simplified:   1x white smk-85, 1x Steampunk compact board hack
white real simplified: 1x unitek k-258
low profile: 1x mint m1242 in box
black: ultra mini wrist keyboard hack
blue: Japanese hhk2 lite hack, 1x siig minitouch pcb/doubleshot dc-2014 caps. kb1903, 1x modified kb1948 Siig minitouch
rainbow test boards:  mck-84sx


Offline JBert

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KBC keyboard needs your advice
« Reply #95 on: Sat, 19 June 2010, 13:11:59 »
Quote from: imsto;193979
when there's a diy kit, I will post it here.
I also hope to hear about it...
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Offline imsto

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« Reply #96 on: Sat, 19 June 2010, 20:14:01 »
I think a diy kit would not cheap than a kbd assembled in the factory.
IBM Model M*3, IBM M13,M5, IBM with balls.Cherry   3000  3494 3700 4100*6 700*2 11900 8113 DAS4 TG3 KBC PokerDucky09Ducky1087 apple pink alps Ducky bull,tiger,rabbit,dragon version No:0000002
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Offline chimera15

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« Reply #97 on: Sat, 19 June 2010, 20:19:06 »
Quote from: imsto;194811
I think a diy kit would not cheap than a kbd assembled in the factory.

Why wouldn't it? You're not paying a wage to someone to solder and assemble a board, and then someone to qc it. That's skilled labor you now don't have to pay someone to do.  You essentially make the buyer the workforce.  You also don't have to pay for the solder/soldering iron, or overhead for the factory like a building.

It should be tremendously cheaper, unless you're just running a sweatshop factory.
« Last Edit: Sat, 19 June 2010, 20:22:20 by chimera15 »
Alps boards:
white real complicated: 1x modified siiig minitouch kb1903,  hhkb light2 english steampunk hack, wireless siig minitouch hack
white with rubber damper(cream)+clicky springs: 2x modified siig minitouch kb1903 1x modified siig minitouch kb1948
white fake simplified:   1x white smk-85, 1x Steampunk compact board hack
white real simplified: 1x unitek k-258
low profile: 1x mint m1242 in box
black: ultra mini wrist keyboard hack
blue: Japanese hhk2 lite hack, 1x siig minitouch pcb/doubleshot dc-2014 caps. kb1903, 1x modified kb1948 Siig minitouch
rainbow test boards:  mck-84sx


Offline quadibloc

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KBC keyboard needs your advice
« Reply #98 on: Sun, 20 June 2010, 00:12:31 »
Quote from: chimera15;194816
Why wouldn't it? You're not paying a wage to someone to solder and assemble a board, and then someone to qc it.
True, but it might be harder to pack the box filled with components for safe shipment than it would be the completed keyboard.

Offline quadibloc

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« Reply #99 on: Sun, 20 June 2010, 00:22:55 »
Quote from: British;194151
Why oh why, do you put your arrow keys in those positions ?
It is counter-intuitive regarding what regular (and even all those inversed-T layouts on tenkeyless and such) keyboards use, that is: index and ring fingers on left and right arrows, and thus the middle switching between up and down.
TL;DR: Index and ring fingers are static, middle is moving.

So when you move all those keys to just one row, that would mean that the left and right arrow keys are on the "outer rim", no matter what, and so up and down are put in-between.

And let's praise UNIX, it's been done before, check how vi does it:
[h] [j] [k] [l] as
[down] [up]
[/B]
Well, for one thing, the diagram in question was referring to key placement on a specific keyboard design. This keyboard design didn't have keys in the appropriate positions for an inverted-T cursor key layout, no matter how much it might be wished for.

As for the positions of the cursor keys, though, while it is true that the Unix key assignments might be considered a standard, those are Ctrl-shift key assignments. As such, they are constrained by the fact that ctrl-H (used for cursor left) is backspace, and ctrl-J (used for cursor down) is line feed.

On computer terminals in general, historically the inverted-T arrangement has not been common. Instead, a related arrangement, that used on the 122-key terminal keyboard, where the four cursor keys surround a central key, is found on the most elaborate keyboards.

On other keyboards, it has been the nearly invariable rule that the cursor up and cursor down keys are together, and the cursor left and cursor right keys are together. Sometimes these four keys are in a square 2 by 2 array, with cursor up and down in one row, and cursor left and right in another.

So I was trying to follow historical standard practice. The most common cursor movement key is cursor left, and so I put that near the related backspace key when the key was a separate key at the top of the keyboard, and under the strongest finger when it is an Fn-shift in the main typing area.

Offline British

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« Reply #100 on: Sun, 20 June 2010, 10:46:17 »
I see your point, but it just doesn't feel natural to me...
Also I don't get that ctrl-shift part, I'm afraid.

Maybe not the best place to talk about this, though :wink:

Offline J888www

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« Reply #101 on: Sun, 20 June 2010, 11:24:03 »
I have a feeling of déjá vu that this discussion is the same same as another post in regard to a certain "SmallSage" keyboard. Why need to repeat oneself ?, just go read the other post.
Often outspoken, please forgive any cause for offense.
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Offline quadibloc

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« Reply #102 on: Sun, 20 June 2010, 16:40:15 »
Quote from: British;194943
Also I don't get that ctrl-shift part, I'm afraid.

Maybe not the best place to talk about this, though
I think this is a reasonable place, since it is of interest to some at least.

Back in the old days, computers were really big boxes in far-off rooms. People used terminals to communicate with them (assuming they were the modern time-sharing kind; otherwise, they would use punched cards).

Depending on who made the computer, and when, it might be that they would use ASCII terminals, which were made as commodity products by many different manufacturers. DEC, in particular, did a lot to standardize ASCII video terminals, which is why many terminal emulation programs will by default follow the protocols of the DEC VT-100 terminal.

ASCII terminals, though, were ultimately based on such devices as the good old ASR 33 Teletype.

When you press the "Carriage Return" key on an ASCII terminal, or when you hold down CTRL and press M, the terminal will send the character whose code is the number 13 (or 0001101 in binary). So the computer at the receiving end cannot tell which one of those two alternatives you chose to do.

A Teletype, and some ASCII terminals, also have a LINE FEED key; that sends the same code as control-J; the number 10 (or 0001010 in binary).

The Teletype did not have a Backspace key, but most ASCII terminals did; that sent the same code as control-H, the number 8.

And so on.

Later on, some ASCII terminals had keys on their keyboards which didn't correspond to ASCII codes either for control characters or printable characters. Thus, ! might be used to set a tab; #1 might be sent when the F1 key is pressed.

Originally, each terminal was different; eventually, a standard for escape codes was adopted that allowed numerical parameters in escape codes to vary in length - this standard meant that every escape code had to contain some character other than a digit, and if it did contain digits, the digits came first. This was the opposite of the previous practice, and it required more processing power; this standard came out when small 8-bit microprocessors started to be used inside terminals.

In the old days, therefore, the tendency was that except in some systems (such as the IBM 3270 terminal environment) every key on the keyboard (except the shift keys) had as its primary function transmitting some ASCII code or code, and it was the ASCII codes that actually 'did something'.

An exotic and expensive kind of terminal, the "block mode" terminal, tried to behave a bit like an IBM 3270, and so the cursor arrow keys didn't send ASCII codes anywhere, but instead were used locally inside the terminal to let you place characters on the screen, and then a "send" key would transmit all the characters in a certain part of the screen (i.e. the field in which the cursor is located, or all entry fields) to the host computer at once.

Offline British

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« Reply #103 on: Mon, 21 June 2010, 03:20:36 »
OK for the ASCII matter, I was actually aware of most of it :wink:

I still don't understand the shift part in that ctrl-shift comment... :pout:

Offline ch_123

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« Reply #104 on: Mon, 21 June 2010, 05:16:21 »
Quote from: chimera15;194816
Why wouldn't it? You're not paying a wage to someone to solder and assemble a board, and then someone to qc it. That's skilled labor you now don't have to pay someone to do.  You essentially make the buyer the workforce.  You also don't have to pay for the solder/soldering iron, or overhead for the factory like a building.

It should be tremendously cheaper, unless you're just running a sweatshop factory.


You're assuming that the soldering isn't done by machine. For the sake of conjecture, if they were machine soldered, the PCBs might be designed in such a way that they're suitable for machine soldering, but not really for human soldering, which would mean that DIY kits would have to be specially assembled.

Offline chimera15

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KBC keyboard needs your advice
« Reply #105 on: Mon, 21 June 2010, 06:46:48 »
Quote from: ch_123;195157
You're assuming that the soldering isn't done by machine. For the sake of conjecture, if they were machine soldered, the PCBs might be designed in such a way that they're suitable for machine soldering, but not really for human soldering, which would mean that DIY kits would have to be specially assembled.

I haven't seen a board like this ever.  Certainly not that uses cherries or alps.  It's not like kb's are motherboards, and even motherboards can be reballed/reflowed by hand and fixed.  Obviously things like chips that might need to be machine soldered would be done by the pcb manufacturer, but big things like caps, and especially the switches can be left off and sold in kit form.  This is especially the case for those of us who want to use alps switches, since good alps switches aren't sold anymore.  Those of us that have true complicated alps will want to use our own from our own collection, not have some junk fake alps soldered into the board that we then have to desolder.

I've heard this may even be the case with blue cherry's, that older blue cherries are stiffer, that some people may like.  So let the user assemble it with the switches they want.  That's a true enthusiast board.
« Last Edit: Mon, 21 June 2010, 06:55:10 by chimera15 »
Alps boards:
white real complicated: 1x modified siiig minitouch kb1903,  hhkb light2 english steampunk hack, wireless siig minitouch hack
white with rubber damper(cream)+clicky springs: 2x modified siig minitouch kb1903 1x modified siig minitouch kb1948
white fake simplified:   1x white smk-85, 1x Steampunk compact board hack
white real simplified: 1x unitek k-258
low profile: 1x mint m1242 in box
black: ultra mini wrist keyboard hack
blue: Japanese hhk2 lite hack, 1x siig minitouch pcb/doubleshot dc-2014 caps. kb1903, 1x modified kb1948 Siig minitouch
rainbow test boards:  mck-84sx


Offline imsto

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KBC keyboard needs your advice
« Reply #106 on: Sat, 26 June 2010, 20:26:33 »
how about the layout like this
the numbers were canceled.
« Last Edit: Mon, 05 July 2010, 12:26:28 by imsto »
IBM Model M*3, IBM M13,M5, IBM with balls.Cherry   3000  3494 3700 4100*6 700*2 11900 8113 DAS4 TG3 KBC PokerDucky09Ducky1087 apple pink alps Ducky bull,tiger,rabbit,dragon version No:0000002
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Offline quadibloc

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« Reply #107 on: Sat, 26 June 2010, 23:03:49 »
Quote from: British;195141
I still don't understand the shift part in that ctrl-shift comment... :pout:
I wasn't talking about the shift key. The control key is a key you hold down to make another key do something different. Therefore, Ctrl, Alt, and the Windows key are all different kinds of shift; the Shift key is just the first and most basic shift.

Offline British

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« Reply #108 on: Sun, 27 June 2010, 06:36:20 »
Quote from: quadibloc;196835
I wasn't talking about the shift key. The control key is a key you hold down to make another key do something different. Therefore, Ctrl, Alt, and the Windows key are all different kinds of shift; the Shift key is just the first and most basic shift.

Ah yes, now that's better !
I tend to call those "modifiers" :smile:

Offline Findecanor

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« Reply #109 on: Sun, 27 June 2010, 13:13:51 »
This is a USB device, and a physical USB device can be multiple virtual devices, right?
One idea for programming would be to have a special switch or key combination that would unlock a special mode: The keyboard would become a USB "Mass Storage" device with a tiny FAT file system. If there is a file named "layout.txt", then that would describe the layout. Such a virtual device would make programming the keyboard OS-independent. You could have special software for programming the keyboard, but you could also be able to program it using a simple text editor. The keyboard would only keep the files in it's µC's RAM as long as the device is mounted. On unmount, layout.txt is parsed and all files are removed. On mount, "layout.txt" is created from the saved layout in non-volatile memory.
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Offline Findecanor

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« Reply #110 on: Sun, 27 June 2010, 15:21:58 »
One does not exclude the other. I think that the location of the Fn key should also be programmable, and you should be able to add shortcuts for changing layout if you want to.
Of course, you could do a lot in software on the host, but if you rely on the host's keymap then you may lose some portability. I think that the user should have the choice to be able to program all keys in multiple layers in several selectable keymaps.
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My daily drivers: Dolch G80-1813HFX (Cherry MX Blue dampened with dental bands), Cherry G80-3000LQCDE-2(Cherry MX Clear)

Offline imsto

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« Reply #111 on: Mon, 28 June 2010, 22:23:31 »
Quote from: Findecanor;196956
This is a USB device, and a physical USB device can be multiple virtual devices, right?
One idea for programming would be to have a special switch or key combination that would unlock a special mode: The keyboard would become a USB "Mass Storage" device with a tiny FAT file system. If there is a file named "layout.txt", then that would describe the layout. Such a virtual device would make programming the keyboard OS-independent. You could have special software for programming the keyboard, but you could also be able to program it using a simple text editor. The keyboard would only keep the files in it's µC's RAM as long as the device is mounted. On unmount, layout.txt is parsed and all files are removed. On mount, "layout.txt" is created from the saved layout in non-volatile memory.


sounds nice.
IBM Model M*3, IBM M13,M5, IBM with balls.Cherry   3000  3494 3700 4100*6 700*2 11900 8113 DAS4 TG3 KBC PokerDucky09Ducky1087 apple pink alps Ducky bull,tiger,rabbit,dragon version No:0000002
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Offline kishy

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« Reply #112 on: Tue, 29 June 2010, 01:47:09 »
I've been talking about that kind of feature, but for a different reason, for ages.

Drivers included on USB Mass Storage compatible flash storage built into all USB hardware would be wonderful, especially for obscure stuff not likely to gain driver inclusion with the OS.
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Offline chimera15

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« Reply #113 on: Tue, 29 June 2010, 02:14:35 »
Wow, that's the first spammer I've seen on this board, pretty amazing.  At least they're hot. lol  Apple's smoking. lol
« Last Edit: Tue, 29 June 2010, 02:16:57 by chimera15 »
Alps boards:
white real complicated: 1x modified siiig minitouch kb1903,  hhkb light2 english steampunk hack, wireless siig minitouch hack
white with rubber damper(cream)+clicky springs: 2x modified siig minitouch kb1903 1x modified siig minitouch kb1948
white fake simplified:   1x white smk-85, 1x Steampunk compact board hack
white real simplified: 1x unitek k-258
low profile: 1x mint m1242 in box
black: ultra mini wrist keyboard hack
blue: Japanese hhk2 lite hack, 1x siig minitouch pcb/doubleshot dc-2014 caps. kb1903, 1x modified kb1948 Siig minitouch
rainbow test boards:  mck-84sx


Offline imsto

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« Reply #114 on: Tue, 29 June 2010, 04:55:51 »
haahaa  
realy hot.
With my knowledge, as the storage device would be recognized both by OS and the kbd, that would be hard to make it work.
it's a way to make the kbd programmable. Seems the traditional method is easier, but complicated too.
IBM Model M*3, IBM M13,M5, IBM with balls.Cherry   3000  3494 3700 4100*6 700*2 11900 8113 DAS4 TG3 KBC PokerDucky09Ducky1087 apple pink alps Ducky bull,tiger,rabbit,dragon version No:0000002
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Offline lowpoly

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« Reply #115 on: Tue, 29 June 2010, 10:21:18 »
Quote from: imsto;196791
how about the layout like this
the numbers were canceled.

Show Image


Stop using my pics. It has already been discussed here, I can't believe that you're still doing this.
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Offline itlnstln

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« Reply #116 on: Tue, 29 June 2010, 10:22:56 »
Quote from: imsto;196791
how about the layout like this
the numbers were canceled.

Show Image


I like that layout.  I would stop using lowpoly's pics, though.


Offline imsto

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« Reply #117 on: Mon, 05 July 2010, 12:07:06 »
Quote from: lowpoly;197561
Stop using my pics. It has already been discussed here, I can't believe that you're still doing this.


Sorry, I would never use it.
IBM Model M*3, IBM M13,M5, IBM with balls.Cherry   3000  3494 3700 4100*6 700*2 11900 8113 DAS4 TG3 KBC PokerDucky09Ducky1087 apple pink alps Ducky bull,tiger,rabbit,dragon version No:0000002
imsto's AiKB Taobao Shop

Offline Nadger

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« Reply #118 on: Sat, 23 October 2010, 21:04:32 »


Was bored, took a stab at it.
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Offline Findecanor

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« Reply #119 on: Sun, 24 October 2010, 13:37:50 »
I just remembered that I had painted a mockup that I had never posted, but then it wasn't very special. I had added a column of keys to the right of the Backspace, '\' and Enter column and an made a inverted T-cluster in the bottom right corner. This arrangement has become very common these days, but if someone wants to map those keys to something else than Home/PgUp/PgDn/End, then I think that should be possible.

As this is supposed to be a kit, and the key caps are blank, I think that it could be worth finding out if it would be possible to have additional mounting holes so that the customer could decide on ANSI/ISO/JIS (or some combination), when it comes time to solder it together. Long or short Left Shift, long or short Right Shift, vertical or horizontal Enter key.
There are also other arrangements that I can think of: An unusual JIS layout (found on the PC JX) has a wide Backspace key, just shifted one step to the right from the ISO/ANSI layouts.
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My daily drivers: Dolch G80-1813HFX (Cherry MX Blue dampened with dental bands), Cherry G80-3000LQCDE-2(Cherry MX Clear)