Author Topic: Linux is a pieve of crap compared to Windows 2000.  (Read 39042 times)

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Offline a_fluffy_kitten

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Linux is a pieve of crap compared to Windows 2000.
« Reply #100 on: Sat, 06 November 2010, 17:23:39 »
Quote from: microsoft windows;243350
It was complete ****, but it still beat Windows 98.


What??? No.  Win98SE was pretty good.  Me was just what happened to 98SE when it got old and had cancer.
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Offline keyboardlover

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Linux is a pieve of crap compared to Windows 2000.
« Reply #101 on: Sat, 06 November 2010, 17:50:05 »
Quote from: instantkamera;243471
oh, and MW, when you install an OS that doesnt DO ANYTHING (which is windows in general), that's not considered "running".

Linux fanboy much?

Offline microsoft windows

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« Reply #102 on: Sat, 06 November 2010, 18:14:48 »

Oh no! Spam Alert!
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Offline ch_123

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Linux is a pieve of crap compared to Windows 2000.
« Reply #103 on: Sat, 06 November 2010, 19:25:09 »
Quote from: keyboardlover;243541
Linux fanboy much?



Offline keyboardlover

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« Reply #104 on: Sat, 06 November 2010, 22:24:59 »
Zomg ch_123 you're so clever! Hey, I can use Google too!

Check it yo!


Offline instantkamera

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Linux is a pieve of crap compared to Windows 2000.
« Reply #105 on: Sun, 07 November 2010, 00:44:20 »
Quote from: keyboardlover;243541
Linux fanboy much?


Stater of the obvious much?

Hell, Ill indulge your troll attempt.

I too am just a ****ing stater of the obvious. I have seen MW screenshots, his installations are little more than the bare OS, and last I checked, you cant get too much done with that (especially the versions that MW loves to run).

Also, one can easily conclude that MW cares more about simply running old versions of windows than he does actually DOING anything with them once they are installed.

I don't care if someone wants to run Windows, and there are plenty of circumstances that warrant it, but comparing windows (ANY VERSION) to linux in a "resource footprint" contest is foolish.


PS

It's only fanboyism if I'm wrong, which I am not.
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Offline imagine7xy

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Linux is a pieve of crap compared to Windows 2000.
« Reply #106 on: Sun, 07 November 2010, 01:33:00 »
My take on it is that Linux is certainly not crap, but I can understand the frustration one can have with it, especially over hardware support. I've had it happen to me. The problem is that many manufacturers do not make sure their hardware works completely with Linux, the second problem is that Linux uses too many cryptic commands that dramatically increase production for a good lazy programmer (maybe even lets them focus on what is something more important) but steepen the learning curve, although they still remain just if not many times more powerful a software solution.

I would have to say Windows/Linux are a complete tie, I have to learn to love them both to stay sane, just don't make me use a Mac please. :(

Offline keyboardlover

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Linux is a pieve of crap compared to Windows 2000.
« Reply #107 on: Sun, 07 November 2010, 06:57:01 »
Quote from: instantkamera

Hell, Ill indulge your troll attempt.

Lol, your original post regarding MW was the real troll attempt...

Quote from: instantkamera

It's only fanboyism if I'm wrong, which I am not.


You said Windows is an OS that doesn't "do anything". On that point you are 100% wrong.


Offline ch_123

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« Reply #108 on: Sun, 07 November 2010, 07:49:01 »
Quote from: keyboardlover;243642
Zomg ch_123 you're so clever! Hey, I can use Google too!


You the man now, dawg.

Offline keyboardlover

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Linux is a pieve of crap compared to Windows 2000.
« Reply #109 on: Sun, 07 November 2010, 08:01:02 »
Quote from: ch_123
You the man now, dawg.


Ehh...I'm ok. At least I'm not from Jersey.


Offline instantkamera

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Linux is a pieve of crap compared to Windows 2000.
« Reply #110 on: Sun, 07 November 2010, 08:40:34 »
win2k and lower are absolutely useless out of the box, and to expand on their functionality is to increase their footprint significantly. Im inclined to say the same about XP, although MAYBE you could get on the internet out of the box with included drivers? Vista is a stop gap between XP and windows 7 and isn't worth regarding in this argument (which I was under the impression was about which OS runs best on low resource platforms), and im not sure Windows 7 is either. I do see some netbooks coming with windows 7 starter/home/basic or whatever the **** it's called, not sure how well they run though, and the name implies that there is something lacking from those and the "better" win7 versions.

Bottom line, there really is no Windows release that can beat linux in a small footprint race, Windows is simply not modular enough to do it. Case in point, can I run windows sans GUI?

(and before you say that would be useless, let me state for the record that I have a fully functional system that runs a large % of console based apps, most of which are better than their windows counterparts)

I like linux, other people can like what they want.
I would rather run windows for certain windows-only software than say, use wine.
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Offline keyboardlover

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Linux is a pieve of crap compared to Windows 2000.
« Reply #111 on: Sun, 07 November 2010, 08:46:23 »
The point never had anything to do with footprint. It had to do with you claiming Windows is an OS that doesn't do anything. Which is stupid and wrong. That's all, broseph.

Offline microsoft windows

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Linux is a pieve of crap compared to Windows 2000.
« Reply #112 on: Sun, 07 November 2010, 08:49:14 »
Most distributions of Linux aren't all that great out of the box either. Linux is all about customizing it to fit your needs. And, for a 10-year-old version of Windows, sure you got to install a few programs and some updates to get today's functionality. Installing a few programs in Windows 2000 actually probably takes less work than optimizing a Linux installation (although many do that as a hobby, there's nothing wrong with that).

Both Windows and Linux can get along just fine on older systems. Windows 95 can run the latest version of Opera, Office '97, and all sorts of other stuff. And Windows 95 runs fine off 16MB of RAM.
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Offline instantkamera

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Linux is a pieve of crap compared to Windows 2000.
« Reply #113 on: Sun, 07 November 2010, 09:11:38 »
Quote from: keyboardlover;243770
The point never had anything to do with footprint. It had to do with you claiming Windows is an OS that doesn't do anything. Which is stupid and wrong. That's all, broseph.


Quote from: microsoft windows;243345
1200 Mhz will run Windows 2000 or XP great. So will a 600Mhz CPU. And a 120Mhz can run them OK.

How well would Arch Linux run off a 160Mhz system with 80MB of RAM? That computer system ran Windows XP pretty well.



The point WAS about footprint. My inflammatory comment about Windows was a silly attempt at simplifying the issue. Which is, as previously stated, a windows installation can be small and next to useless OR bloated and useful. FOR ME, neither option is preferred. That wont stop me from using windows under the right circumstances.
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Offline keyboardlover

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Linux is a pieve of crap compared to Windows 2000.
« Reply #114 on: Sun, 07 November 2010, 09:22:00 »
Well, when I said "point" I was referring to where I quoted you.

Regardless of any 'bloat' arguments, I still personally prefer Windows 7 to Linux, and I use both. Actually, the most bloated OS I've seen is OS X. Last I saw it took up somewhere near 10 gb until you manually uninstalled all the language packs it comes with. Hope they fixed that.

Offline ch_123

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« Reply #115 on: Sun, 07 November 2010, 09:23:41 »
So does Windows 7. Your point?

Offline keyboardlover

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« Reply #116 on: Sun, 07 November 2010, 09:26:48 »
Lol oh yea...well the last I looked at an OS X footprint was like 3-4 years ago so it makes sense that footprints have increased since then.

Offline ch_123

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« Reply #117 on: Sun, 07 November 2010, 09:31:07 »
No, the latest version is about 8-10GB too.

And unlike Windows, the bundled software is actually usable...

Offline instantkamera

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Linux is a pieve of crap compared to Windows 2000.
« Reply #118 on: Sun, 07 November 2010, 09:32:06 »
Disk usage is only a small part of "footprint" (and the least important to me).
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Offline keyboardlover

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« Reply #119 on: Sun, 07 November 2010, 09:47:18 »
Quote from: ch_123

And unlike Windows, the bundled software is actually usable...


Windows 7's bundled software is quite useful.

Offline microsoft windows

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« Reply #120 on: Sun, 07 November 2010, 10:21:35 »
You can get a lot done on Windows 2000 or XP without much background processes/bloatware running.
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Offline ch_123

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« Reply #121 on: Sun, 07 November 2010, 12:47:25 »
Ah, a disc burning utility that can only burn ISOs, how useful...

Offline ch_123

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« Reply #122 on: Sun, 07 November 2010, 12:52:50 »
InfraRecorder is a nice open source one. I was put off it when I first tried it a few years ago when it was still in early development, and it didn't work nice. Has been working great any time I've used it recently.

DeepBurner, of which there is a freeware version, is what I've used the most in the intervening period. It's a good piece of kit, but the interface is as clunky as hell.

Offline instantkamera

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Linux is a pieve of crap compared to Windows 2000.
« Reply #123 on: Sun, 07 November 2010, 13:37:05 »
cdrecord (cdrtools) FTW
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Offline zefrer

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Linux is a pieve of crap compared to Windows 2000.
« Reply #124 on: Sun, 07 November 2010, 13:53:31 »
I just chalked it up to one of his ancient PCs fault. Or just bad typing, who knows.

Offline ricercar

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Linux is a pieve of crap compared to Windows 2000.
« Reply #125 on: Sun, 07 November 2010, 13:56:47 »
Quote from: a_fluffy_kitten;243531
What??? No.  Win98SE was pretty good.

Do WinSE and goatse come from the same root?

Quote from: instantkamera;243768
win2k and lower are absolutely useless out of the box

Bwah? 2K is a decently stable server platform out of the box, includes TCP/IP and a rtf/doc reader. You're thinking 95/98/me for sure. Shall we quibble and play word games or stop feeding trolls?

oops.
« Last Edit: Sun, 07 November 2010, 14:00:10 by ricercar »
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Offline ricercar

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Linux is a pieve of crap compared to Windows 2000.
« Reply #126 on: Sun, 07 November 2010, 13:59:30 »
Quote from: instantkamera;243768
win2k and lower are absolutely useless out of the box


Bwah? 2K is a decently stable server platform out of the box, includes TCP/IP and a rtf/doc reader. You're thinking 95/98/me for sure. Shall we quibble and play word games or stop feeding trolls?

oops.
I trolled Geekhack and all I got was an eponymous SPOS.

Offline ch_123

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« Reply #127 on: Sun, 07 November 2010, 14:07:11 »
Does no one remember the Summer of Worms? All those attacks were most effective against Windows 2000, IIRC.

Offline Shawn Stanford

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Linux is a pieve of crap compared to Windows 2000.
« Reply #128 on: Mon, 08 November 2010, 07:02:12 »
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Offline ch_123

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« Reply #129 on: Tue, 09 November 2010, 04:45:53 »
Quote from: ricercar;243883
Bwah? 2K is a decently stable server platform out of the box, includes TCP/IP and a rtf/doc reader.


Desktop usage is one thing, but for servers, I wouldn't call an unsupported version of Windows a stable platform. Especially when much better alternatives are available for free.
« Last Edit: Tue, 09 November 2010, 04:55:57 by ch_123 »

Offline imagine7xy

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« Reply #130 on: Tue, 09 November 2010, 07:24:01 »
Windows 7 runs just as fine as Windows 2K, using a Quad Core & 8 GB 1333 everything is top notch, not a bit of lag ever, no difference from 2K. I don't know why you would be concerned about running say 20 system processes instead of 10 when by 2022 it will be affordable to run 1 TB of memory, consider that 2K's 32bit arch with cap you out at about 3.2 GB of memory possibilities. You are crazy to still seriously run 2K unless you are just doing it for sh*ts and giggles.

Offline ch_123

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« Reply #131 on: Tue, 09 November 2010, 09:43:24 »
Win2K had PAE support, which allowed it to support something like 64GB of RAM. Later 32-bit versions of Windows restricted this functionality to server versions only. Linux has the same functionality available as far as I know.

I think there was some sort of catch involving driver support, but the point stands nonetheless.

Offline fl1ckmasterflex

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« Reply #132 on: Tue, 09 November 2010, 14:56:58 »
Quote from: instantkamera;243768
win2k and lower are absolutely useless out of the box, and to expand on their functionality is to increase their footprint significantly.  

I can choose to install an obscure Linux distro that comes with nothing installed. Since it uses the Linux kernel I can then make a truthful statement that Linux is useless out of the box. Conversely I can create my own Windows distro that includes all the software I want and slipstream it into the install media making it just as useful as a modern Linux distro out of the box.

Ofcource if ms officially started bundling any more software than what they are now, I'd wager that we'd see some interesting anti-trust lawsuits.

Quote from: instantkamera;243768

Case in point, can I run windows sans GUI?

Not a desktop version, but you can get something close to a base CLI linux install with server 2008 core http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windows_Server_2008#Server_Core

You are somewhat correct in saying that Linux is more modular by design. This is mostly because it shares the UNIX design philosophy. Microsoft has demo'd a 25MB windows 7 CLI build running as a web server. I think if they wanted to enter the embedded market they probably could dedicate a few tens of millions of dollars and get the code refactored to compete with Linux w.r.t modularization.  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NNsS_0wSfoU#t=3m30s

Offline instantkamera

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« Reply #133 on: Tue, 09 November 2010, 15:45:44 »
Again, my point with linux is that there really IS no box to come out of. Linux installs are pretty much entirely dictated by the user. Windows with a proper repository of useful software and a package manager to go with it would actually be awesome.

2008 core is ridiculous. That is still a GUI, Why draw GUI elements at all? Because windows sysadmins are afraid of text?

Yes MS COULD do something minimal or more modular than Windows currently is, but they haven't.
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Offline JBert

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« Reply #134 on: Tue, 09 November 2010, 17:08:43 »
Quote from: fl1ckmasterflex;244710
Ofcource if ms officially started bundling any more software than what they are now, I'd wager that we'd see some interesting anti-trust lawsuits.
You are comparing apples to melons. Microsoft controls who can bundle their software, with GNU/Linux, this is not the case. They vouched to make their software free*, so everyone who wants to make a distro can do so at any time.


* Closed-source development not withstanding - read this as "this source code wants to be out there/free".
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Offline ch_123

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« Reply #135 on: Tue, 09 November 2010, 17:56:11 »
Quote from: fl1ckmasterflex;244710

Not a desktop version, but you can get something close to a base CLI linux install with server 2008 core http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windows_Server_2008#Server_Core


Yeah, but it's still running a GUI to display that command line screen. You still get all the problems associated with GUIs - unnecessary memory usage, and the potential stability/security issues, and having to run the appropriate drivers which cause more of the aforementioned resource/security/stability issues, but all the time without getting any of the benefits of having a GUI running away in the background - a classic Microsoft 'solution'.

I've read somewhere that MS has been working for the past few years on modularizing the components of Windows so that they can run the OS without having to run the GUI on top of it. And they're still working on it years later because not even Microsoft knows what's going on inside the belly of the beast. My understanding is that the NT kernel was originally a microkernel design, and they shoved more and more of the operating system's functionality into the kernel for performance reasons and now it's a gigantic mess because if they take stuff out of the kernel they'll just break other stuff that should be unrelated but isn't.

Yep, *nix has modularity, Windows just sucks balls.

Quote
You are somewhat correct in saying that Linux is more modular by design. This is mostly because it shares the UNIX design philosophy. Microsoft has demo'd a 25MB windows 7 CLI build running as a web server. I think if they wanted to enter the embedded market they probably could dedicate a few tens of millions of dollars and get the code refactored to compete with Linux w.r.t modularization.  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NNsS_0wSfoU#t=3m30s


What they said time after time was that MinWin was just the basic kernel that they were going to use in Windows 7 and 2008 Server R2. It's not a viable OS by itself, they just took the kernel, hooked up a very basic environment around it and ran a dumbed down (they say so themselves in whichever video they first announced it in) http server on top of it. I wouldn't boast about it needing 25MB of RAM, especially given that you can get a GUI Linux desktop running in about 16MB of RAM, and probably not much more for a proper web server running on top of a CLI linux installation with the appropriate user land utils.

Embedded? There are real embedded systems that run in kilobytes of RAM that do real things. Still wouldn't boast about needing 25MB to run a castrated http server on top of a DOS-like shell.
« Last Edit: Tue, 09 November 2010, 18:08:14 by ch_123 »

Offline keyboardlover

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« Reply #136 on: Tue, 09 November 2010, 18:00:26 »
Quote from: instantkamera
Windows with a proper repository of useful software and a package manager to go with it would actually be awesome.


Windows already has a repository of useful software (it's called the majority of software built today) and the package manager is the built-in installer. Unlike Linux, Windows doesn't need a repository, because it doesn't come in all these different flavors like Linux. And at least with Windows, you don't have to worry so much about package dependencies...everything is typically nicely bundled.

Offline D-EJ915

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« Reply #137 on: Tue, 09 November 2010, 19:44:13 »
Unless they use things like DirectX, .NET, Java, etc.  The amount of crap you need to get a working windows system is ridiculous.

Offline microsoft windows

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« Reply #138 on: Tue, 09 November 2010, 19:48:00 »
You all've seen nothing if you haven't set up a Windows 3.1 system these days. To sum it up, it's drivers to the tenth power.
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Offline keyboardlover

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« Reply #139 on: Tue, 09 November 2010, 19:50:13 »
Quote from: D-EJ915
Unless they use things like DirectX, .NET, Java, etc.  The amount of crap you need to get a working windows system is ridiculous.


For me it takes the same amount of time to set up a Win 7 machine the way I want as it does a Linux machine.

Offline microsoft windows

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« Reply #140 on: Tue, 09 November 2010, 19:53:21 »
It can actually take more work customizing a Linux system to optimal functionality. But there's nothing wrong with that. Use whichever operating system you prefer. But I like Windows and you all can't change that.
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Offline instantkamera

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« Reply #141 on: Tue, 09 November 2010, 21:22:17 »
Quote from: keyboardlover;244752
Windows already has a repository of useful software (it's called the majority of software built today) and the package manager is the built-in installer. Unlike Linux, Windows doesn't need a repository, because it doesn't come in all these different flavors like Linux. And at least with Windows, you don't have to worry so much about package dependencies...everything is typically nicely bundled.

and therein lies the downfall of Windows. Because the user is tasked with getting all their software from all over hell's half acre, instead of a trusted resource, the stupider end of the user base inevitably winds up with a hosed system, be it through the installation of malicious software, or just plain poorly written ****.

Dependencies are a problem in windows. Java, that is a dependency. .NET framework is a dependency. Python, perl, ruby ... all dependencies. The difference is that you are used to dealing with them. Doesn't make them any better, in fact, it's far worse. Often prebuilt binaries on a windows box try to bundle in the required libraries, add ons etc. This is really haphazard and can lead to software conflicts, duplicate versions, leftover registry **** etc etc.

All GOOD package managers for nix handle all this in stride.
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Offline zefrer

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« Reply #142 on: Wed, 10 November 2010, 04:38:01 »
The windows installer is not a package manager, get your facts straight. Here.

Again, package managers in linux are typically responsible for upgrading/installing the OS itself as well. There is no equivalent in the windows world.

Offline ch_123

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« Reply #143 on: Wed, 10 November 2010, 04:41:43 »
Windows Update, maaaaaaaan.

*runs*

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Linux is a pieve of crap compared to Windows 2000.
« Reply #144 on: Wed, 10 November 2010, 04:53:42 »
Quote from: ch_123;244609
Win2K had PAE support, which allowed it to support something like 64GB of RAM. Later 32-bit versions of Windows restricted this functionality to server versions only. Linux has the same functionality available as far as I know.

Linux has PAE as kernel option, I use it with 6GB of RAM. The CPU support is up-to 64GB, but desktop motherboards usually cap at 8 or 16GB.
I've read on the net about hidden PAE support in XP which one can somehow enable, but it is kinda flaky with gotchas.

Offline zefrer

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« Reply #145 on: Wed, 10 November 2010, 04:54:17 »
Quote from: ch_123;244852
Windows Update, maaaaaaaan.

*runs*


Hahahaha :D

Offline fl1ckmasterflex

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Linux is a pieve of crap compared to Windows 2000.
« Reply #146 on: Wed, 10 November 2010, 05:27:49 »
Quote from: instantkamera;244722

2008 core is ridiculous. That is still a GUI, Why draw GUI elements at all? Because windows sysadmins are afraid of text?

Yes, csrss.exe (the win32 subsystem) is running. However you're exaggerating or unfamiliar with the bloat that a NT subsystem ads. Running X and a desktop environment on Linux might do that, but thats not the same on NT.  Right now my w7 devbox has been running for about 13 or so hours and csrss has consumed about 24 seconds of CPU time.  This will only go down if you only use the box to run windows services (i.e. the intended use of server core)

Offline fl1ckmasterflex

  • Posts: 10
Linux is a pieve of crap compared to Windows 2000.
« Reply #147 on: Wed, 10 November 2010, 05:48:01 »
Quote from: ch_123;244749
You still get all the problems associated with GUIs - unnecessary memory usage, and the potential stability/security issues, and having to run the appropriate drivers which cause more of the aforementioned resource/security/stability issues

Thats quite comical. Unfortunately your rant is not based on reality. CSRSS.exe(win32 subsystem) is one of the most stable pieces of code in Windows. Windows Safe mode relies on it.  As far as drivers go you can choose not to install any graphics drivers.

Quote from: ch_123;244749

Yep, *nix has modularity, Windows just sucks balls.

The UNIX spec has nothing to do with kernel modularity. Also the Linux kernel is anything but modular. Its a giant binary blob. Thats the reason there is never going to be a stable kernel ABI layer for many things such as display drivers. Something that NT had about 17 years ago.

Quote from: ch_123;244749

What they said time after time was that MinWin was just the basic kernel that they were going to use in Windows 7 and 2008 Server R2.

You're mistaken. MinWin is *already* in Windows 7 and server 2008. They're refactoring their codebase and while they're not going to make a new product with it they're using it to build a complete OS - aka Windows.

Quote from: ch_123;244749

I wouldn't boast about it needing 25MB of RAM, especially given that you can get a GUI Linux desktop running in about 16MB of RAM, and probably not much more for a proper web server running on top of a CLI linux installation with the appropriate user land utils.

Yawn, here comes the troll. Nobody said it was a boast.

Quote from: ch_123;244749

Embedded? There are real embedded systems that run in kilobytes of RAM that do real things. Still wouldn't boast about needing 25MB to run a castrated http server on top of a DOS-like shell.

Thats it? Got any more refutations for imaginary points that I never made?

Offline fl1ckmasterflex

  • Posts: 10
Linux is a pieve of crap compared to Windows 2000.
« Reply #148 on: Wed, 10 November 2010, 05:54:49 »
Quote from: instantkamera;244816
and therein lies the downfall of Windows. Because the user is tasked with getting all their software from all over hell's half acre, instead of a trusted resource, the stupider end of the user base inevitably winds up with a hosed system, be it through the installation of malicious software, or just plain poorly written ****.

This is true. But, you can have a similar problem on the Linux side of things too. In the future its possible that hundreds and thousands of software vendors would want users to install software through their own repository. And guess what - The same problem of not having a sufficiently vetted white-list appears.

Its just a matter of scale. If tommorow all the commercial software on windows was available on Linux, who is going to employ people to test and verify that the software doesn't contain malware?  Heck even if it was all magically open sourced, who is going to sift through all that code and verify that its kosher?

Offline Shawn Stanford

  • Posts: 368
Linux is a pieve of crap compared to Windows 2000.
« Reply #149 on: Wed, 10 November 2010, 06:04:36 »



I read somewhere that the debate in the early 60s at IBM between a 6-bit or 8-bit byte almost caused fistfights in the hallways at Old Armonk...
« Last Edit: Wed, 10 November 2010, 06:08:00 by Shawn Stanford »
The Brat Prince of COBOL