Author Topic: Razer Mechanical?  (Read 117894 times)

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Offline ch_123

  • Posts: 9094
Razer Mechanical?
« Reply #240 on: Wed, 25 August 2010, 14:26:29 »
Quote from: Superfluous Parentheses;216503
It'd sell, though. Even if they're probably not exactly ideal for gaming.


I think this whole "Black Cherry for gaming" thing was started by some parts supplier trying to get rid of old stock... I game on Model Ms just fine.
« Last Edit: Wed, 25 August 2010, 14:33:59 by ch_123 »

Offline itlnstln

  • Posts: 13094
Razer Mechanical?
« Reply #241 on: Wed, 25 August 2010, 14:30:37 »
Black Cherry as an industrial switch intended to be hammered on, for sure.  I don't think I would even want to use it for gaming let alone typing on.


Offline Phaedrus2129

  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 1467
Razer Mechanical?
« Reply #242 on: Wed, 25 August 2010, 15:01:13 »
[youtube]t2mU6USTBRE[/youtube]
Daily Driver: Noppoo Choc Mini
Currently own: IBM Model M 1391401 1988,  XArmor U9 prototype
Previously owned: Ricercar SPOS, IBM M13 92G7461 1994, XArmor U9BL, XArmor U9W prototype, Cherry G80-8200LPDUS, Cherry G84-4100, Compaq MX-11800, Chicony KB-5181 (SMK Monterey), Reveal KB-7061, Cirque Wave Keyboard (ergonomic rubber domes), NMB RT101 (rubber dome), Dell AT101W

Offline MyvTeddy

  • Posts: 6
Razer Mechanical?
« Reply #243 on: Wed, 25 August 2010, 15:34:53 »
Quote from: ripster;216559
You guys can always vote on the Xarmor Poll for what switches they should offer.

Me, I only listen to professional gamers.
Show Image


You know, didn't someone say red switches are the *****iest to find or whatnot?

so... rig the votes so they're less *****ier to find?

Offline ch_123

  • Posts: 9094
Razer Mechanical?
« Reply #244 on: Wed, 25 August 2010, 16:00:58 »
I seriously do not understand how or why a more linear switch than the Browns would be in any way desirable... What Ripster said - people want see something weird, they want it.

Again, Another Flippin' Cherry syndrome taken to ridiculous heights.

Offline Phaedrus2129

  • Thread Starter
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Razer Mechanical?
« Reply #245 on: Wed, 25 August 2010, 16:05:04 »
I love MX browns. I typed on my G80 some today after using the XArmor for weeks, and I'm really thinking about plugging that back in instead. The only thing I don't like is the color and the ISO enter key. But mmmmmm smooth light soft MX browns... Screw clicky, PCB-mounted MX browns are the bomb.
Daily Driver: Noppoo Choc Mini
Currently own: IBM Model M 1391401 1988,  XArmor U9 prototype
Previously owned: Ricercar SPOS, IBM M13 92G7461 1994, XArmor U9BL, XArmor U9W prototype, Cherry G80-8200LPDUS, Cherry G84-4100, Compaq MX-11800, Chicony KB-5181 (SMK Monterey), Reveal KB-7061, Cirque Wave Keyboard (ergonomic rubber domes), NMB RT101 (rubber dome), Dell AT101W

Offline itlnstln

  • Posts: 13094
Razer Mechanical?
« Reply #246 on: Wed, 25 August 2010, 16:13:20 »
Quote from: Phaedrus2129;216613
Screw clicky, PCB-mounted MX browns are the bomb.


My sentiments exactly.  If I were stuck with one type of switch for the rest of my life, it would be Cherry browns.  They're not quite as nice as the Realforce, but they are pretty consistent in every board I have tried.


Offline itlnstln

  • Posts: 13094
Razer Mechanical?
« Reply #247 on: Wed, 25 August 2010, 16:19:49 »
What? 4 years of development wasn't enough?


Offline itlnstln

  • Posts: 13094
Razer Mechanical?
« Reply #248 on: Wed, 25 August 2010, 16:24:19 »
That's where everyone went wrong.


Offline aegrotatio

  • Posts: 585
Razer Mechanical?
« Reply #249 on: Wed, 25 August 2010, 19:51:35 »
I'm satisfied with my DAS Keyboard "Silent" version with Cherry Brown switches.  This is exactly why I have loved ALPS keyboards, and now I love Cherry keyboards as long as they're brown.  I'm still trolling for a Cherry Black for the linear version of non-clicky Cherry boards but honestly I have not found myself to be that sensitive and I type 130 wpm.
Daily Drivers: Ducky DK1087XM || DSI ASK-6600 || Rosewill RK-9000 BL, BR, BL, and RE || ABS M1 || Das Keyboard Silent || HHKB Lite and Lite 2 || DSI Big Font (kids love it)
Yearning for: Any ALPS keyboard || Any tenkeyless mechanical keyboard
Permanent collection: Poker Blue and Brown || Adesso MKB-125B || SIIG MiniTouch Geek Hack Space Saver || Chicony 5181 Monterey Blue || Chicony 5191 Clone Cherry Blues || Key Tronic 3600 || Unicomp Endurapro & SmarTrex || A crate of IBM Model M and Model M Space Saving boards || NeXTstation Slab || Amiga 3000 || BTC-5100C black and beige || SIIG MiniTouch Plus black and beige
Retired collection: SIIG MiniTouch Monterey Blue || Razer BlackWidow

Offline Bullveyr

  • Posts: 263
  • Location: Austria
Razer Mechanical?
« Reply #250 on: Thu, 26 August 2010, 02:31:35 »
Just to have a pic without the blue lighting.



http://www.coolpc.com.tw/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?f=77&t=51382
Quote from: ripster;185750
Mechanical switches are mechanical.

Offline skartt

  • Posts: 58
Razer Mechanical?
« Reply #251 on: Thu, 26 August 2010, 02:56:51 »
probably purely commercially motivated, arent mx browns more expansive than mx blue?

Does ione have access to mx browns at all?

Offline lmnop

  • Posts: 712
Razer Mechanical?
« Reply #252 on: Thu, 26 August 2010, 09:02:28 »
Manyak


Elitekeyboards

Offline lmnop

  • Posts: 712
Razer Mechanical?
« Reply #253 on: Thu, 26 August 2010, 09:12:58 »
I know the Brown was mislabeled I am asking about Cherry MX Blue.

Cherry Police..

Offline lmnop

  • Posts: 712
Razer Mechanical?
« Reply #254 on: Thu, 26 August 2010, 09:16:07 »
Quote from: ripster;216842
What's your question?

officer ripster

excuse me for saying so but I can't help but notice Manyak and elitekeyboards force graphs for Cherry MX Blue look completely different.

Offline ManjyomeThunder

  • Posts: 156
Razer Mechanical?
« Reply #255 on: Thu, 02 September 2010, 04:42:53 »
"Sh*t the ***s on Razer's Facebook say"

"**** this **** microsoft has better peripherials"

"A $5 Microsoft OEM keyboard is going to do the same thing as a $100 keyboard. If you think otherwise, you're plain retarded."

"I will enjoy my rubber domes brah, been using the same keyboard since ... 2003? ... Have fun with your "hardcore" gaming keyboard though."

"dude, plz shut up. ... Lrn2type"

"Go read up on Topre capacitive switches before you start bagging rubber domes. Retard."

"Oh wait, what do HH use..? Your failed attempt to be a showoff made me feel ashamed for you"

------------

Because bagging on the common $5 rubber dome keyboards obviously means I think Topre switches suck, you see? It's not like they're FAR in the minority or anything.

Made me laugh, in any case. Especially the "lrn2type".
Current Favorite:  Noppoo Choc Mini with Cherry MX Blues
"Storage": ABS M1, Unicomp Customizer 104, Razer Lycosa, (3) Dell AT101W, GeekHack Space Saver
Other stuff: Razer DeathAdder, eXactMat

Offline ch_123

  • Posts: 9094
Razer Mechanical?
« Reply #256 on: Thu, 02 September 2010, 04:45:29 »
Quote
"Go read up on Topre capacitive switches before you start bagging rubber domes. Retard."



Offline Arc'xer

  • Posts: 529
Razer Mechanical?
« Reply #257 on: Thu, 02 September 2010, 05:02:33 »
Quote from: skartt;216790
probably purely commercially motivated, arent mx browns more expansive than mx blue?

Oh no it should be a bit cheaper remember the blues have additional components which reduce it's lifespan compared to the other mx switches to create the noise, browns from a perspective are more simpler.

From what I remember of a few threads posted last year the reason being is the ergonomic(brown's nickname) is more popular in Asian areas. While the blues are more popular in American/European areas.

Not entirely sure why might be the whole silence factor and whatnot. Been a while since I read it.

Lol at ManjyomeThunder, well said. I was gonna reply to the LAN thing but got beaten to it. I was just thinking of that kinda general response by said people.

Offline Razer|Ark

  • Posts: 1
Razer Mechanical?
« Reply #258 on: Fri, 03 September 2010, 04:30:24 »
Hi all,

I’m Jason and I’m part of the Razer product team for the Razer BlackWidow.

We’ve been following this and related mechanical keyboard threads on various forums and on behalf of the team, I’d like to thank everyone for your interest in mechanical keyboards and the Razer BlackWidow in particular.

The community is very important to Razer and we’d like to do our best to address your needs and concerns.  Over the past few weeks, we’ve seen a huge number of queries (and some misconceptions) that have been posted on this forum and we’re taking this opportunity to clear as much as we can before the first reviews start coming out!

Unfortunately, we won’t be able to monitor all the forums as much as we would like to but we’re definitely looking forward to hearing your feedback and any other suggestions that you may have for the Razer BlackWidow and our future mechanical keyboard products. I’ve appended my contact info below as I won’t be able to track this on a regular basis (so my apologies in advance for not tracking this thread regularly – I’ve tried to cover as many of the queries as possible) – feel free to reach out!
 
   1. Why did Razer go mechanical? Because we’ve always had mech heads in the office as well as gamers calling for them – it took us a while because we went through several re-designs, but we think you’ll like what you see. The Razer BlackWidow will be the first line of mech keyboards that we will release.

2.   What key switch is used in the Razer BlackWidow? To dispel all confusion once and for all – we use the Cherry Blues – and in our design process, we’ve got a pretty strict guideline on sorting of each switch, so it’s not just the Cherry Blues but those with a certain characteristic/tolerance guideline. So…they’re cherry-picked. :becky: I can’t go into the tolerance/sorting guidelines but I can say that it provides for a different experience as opposed to a normal Cherry Blue switch keyboard.

3.   OMFG/WTF/etc WHY THE BLUES INSTEAD OF THE [Insert your favorite color switch here] First up, they all cost almost the same – blues, blacks, reds, etc and we had tested all of the switches with multiple designs. So we picked the Blues intentionally from the get go.  We went through a design cycle with each of the different switches and our ergo team together with our pool of pro gamers went through extensive validation of the Blues – we came up with 2 real conclusions, 1. It’s a question of preference of each user primarily and 2. There’s a lot of marketing bull**** and FUD out there about which color is better etc etc.

We finally picked the Blues over the others like the blacks after the testing/validation that we did over the past couple of years– the data was pretty clear to us. The biggest downside to the Blues was the sound – but the other features were huge winners – and the data we collated from hundreds of pro/amateur gamers indicated that the tactile and clicky Blues provided a significant advantage to the gamers as opposed to those that used other switches (though we wouldn’t recommend LAN centers to kit up on the Razer BlackWidows, it would drive everyone crazy). A few people here also brought up the release point of the blue switches being higher than the actuation point by a fraction of a millimeter requiring you to release it fully to ensure a re-actuation.  This was also one of the issues that we had tested extensively internally with our test robots as well as with our pro-gamers and this was addressed as part of our design. The Blues do provide a better switch mechanism for gaming (although it depends on your preference at the end of the day too). Don’t take our word for it, give the Razer BlackWidow a go – you may just realize that you prefer the Blues at the end of the day.

4.   Does the Razer BlackWidow have NKRO?  We were the first in the world to push the limits of anti-ghosting when we released the Razer Tarantula gaming keyboard some 4 years ago, so we know how important this feature is for many gamers. However, we also balance this against the other features that gamers require.  . Razer BlackWidow’s up to 6-key rollover gaming optimized key matrix serves a similar purpose for gamers who need anti-ghosting while using an ordinary USB port (as opposed to a PS/2 port).  In addition, by using a USB connection the Razer BlackWidow is able to provide gamers advanced customization and performance features that are not available using a PS/2 connection, using Razer’s configuration software.

5.   What were the key areas of design/engineering that make the Razer BlackWidow a mechanical gaming keyboard? We spent a lot of time on this – balancing some of the cool features that we wanted to put into the product vs making sure that we didn’t alienate users with a keytop scheme that would be too difficult to just jump into. The biggest challenge was primarily that from the get go – how to design the Razer BlackWidow to be as simple for the new user to use, to ease him into mech keyboards but also to provide the competitive advantage in game play.

Some of the key design features include our shifting of the F-key row from the traditional position to the right – just above the WASD cluster (F1 is above the W key). There are significant gaming ergo benefits to the same. We also included 5 additional gaming keys and did a significant study into the angle of the keytop to the desk surface ratio to ensure a uniform keystroke experience across all the keys during game play. A couple of other things include on-the-fly macro recording, gaming profiles etc, but our focus was to provide as many subtle changes as possible that may not seem evident at first glance but ultimately indispensable after a few hours of use.

6.   Why are the function keys on the Razer BlackWidow shifted slightly more to the right?  Our ergonomics team has made subtle changes to the placement of the keytop – while most of the placement of the keys have been retained to allow gamers to immediately get used to the key locations, we have shifted the F-key row to the right slightly to align the F1 key directly above the W of the WASD home keys. Extensive ergonomics tests have shown that this new alignment will allow faster keypress accuracy for games that require the use of the F-key row. Some slight adjustment will be required.

7.   The Razer BlackWidow must be a cheapass, low quality piece of junk because it costs US$79.99 while other mech keyboards cost at least twice that! I insist on paying twice more! Well, due to the feedback, we have decided to increase the price to US$149.99 for the Razer BlackWidow. :becky:  (just kidding)

We find it really odd anyone can pass judgment on the quality before even getting their hands on one (just saying)–  but the proof is in the pudding – wait for the first couple of reviews that should be out soon or try one out when we release it in the next couple of weeks.  

Seriously, there’s really no reason for mech keyboards to cost a bomb. It just doesn’t make any sense and we didn’t see the need to peg an ultra-high price without any reason for it. The Razer BlackWidow was designed by a group of gamers internally (I was one of them) within Razer that championed the mech switches and we believe in propagating this to as many gamers out there without profiting unfairly off them.

Don’t take our word for it, wait for the reviews or better yet, try it out yourself. We’re big fans of the mechanical keyboard ourselves and we’re looking to get it into as many hands as possible – this is our one chance to make mech keyboard ubiquitous for gaming. The more we make, the better our next mechanical keyboard will be. We believe in this and we welcome as much feedback from the community as possible so that we can make a better product.


To get more updates and new reviews as they are posted, you can join our twitter feed at http://twitter.com/cultofrazer.   Do join our Facebook fansite too at http://www.facebook.com/razer

If you represent an established review site and would like to do a review do reach out to me at jason.ark@razerzone.com.  Kindly include information on your identity and the review website you represent and we’ll try to get you a review unit (no promises).  We’ll try our best to answer every single email but I do have a day job and I’ll do what I can to get back to you if I can!

Offline lmnop

  • Posts: 712
Razer Mechanical?
« Reply #259 on: Fri, 03 September 2010, 04:38:48 »
oh dear..  remember to use lube on our guest.

Offline lmnop

  • Posts: 712
Razer Mechanical?
« Reply #260 on: Fri, 03 September 2010, 04:55:38 »
oh dear..  

I do have one question. what is the secondary function on the Pause -- Break key? is it sleep?
« Last Edit: Fri, 03 September 2010, 04:58:47 by lmnop »

Offline Brodie337

  • Posts: 493
Razer Mechanical?
« Reply #261 on: Fri, 03 September 2010, 05:04:59 »
Thanks for taking the time to join us here.

There are a few things that irk me, though:
Quote
2.   What key switch is used in the Razer BlackWidow? To dispel all confusion once and for all – we use the Cherry Blues – and in our design process, we’ve got a pretty strict guideline on sorting of each switch, so it’s not just the Cherry Blues but those with a certain characteristic/tolerance guideline. So…they’re cherry-picked.  I can’t go into the tolerance/sorting guidelines but I can say that it provides for a different experience as opposed to a normal Cherry Blue switch keyboard.


I really don't think there's enough variation in the switches for this to make a bit of noticeable difference. I've typed on 3 keyboards with Cherry Browns, and every single keyswitch felt the same.

Does the "optimized matrix" actually feature NKRO or not? Just about every keyboard is anti ghosting (blocks problem combinations), but does the 6 key limit apply to any six keys on the board?

Thanks,
Brodie.

Offline ch_123

  • Posts: 9094
Razer Mechanical?
« Reply #262 on: Fri, 03 September 2010, 05:10:44 »
I'm a bit confused by that one too. "Optimized" usually means that commonly used combos are treated as special cases, but then the guy said "6 KRO" which would suggest that it's a NKRO keyboard limited by the USB controller.

Offline Brodie337

  • Posts: 493
Razer Mechanical?
« Reply #263 on: Fri, 03 September 2010, 05:12:45 »
Either way, its good to see that there are some reps that are willing to endure the wrath of us fundamentalist keyboardists...
« Last Edit: Fri, 03 September 2010, 05:16:15 by Brodie337 »

Offline lmnop

  • Posts: 712
Razer Mechanical?
« Reply #264 on: Fri, 03 September 2010, 05:25:21 »
yeah if he comes back to answer questions... he posted that same message at OCN and probably a couple other forums. the message was clearly written for the average BOO BOO THE FOO which there isn't any here (except me of course) I didn't get anything from his message except sketchy details about the rollover.
« Last Edit: Fri, 03 September 2010, 05:32:00 by lmnop »

Offline instantkamera

  • Posts: 1329
Razer Mechanical?
« Reply #265 on: Fri, 03 September 2010, 06:33:26 »
Quote from: ch_123;219468
but then the guy said "6 KRO" which would suggest that it's a NKRO keyboard limited by the USB controller.


no, he said:

Quote

up to 6-key rollover


which would suggest that there are combinations that work fine and are limited by USB, and there are other combinations that **** the bed @ 2-3KRO. Im pretty sure the don't understand that the # of Ks RO is supposed to be the minimum, not any amount of random keys you can push that register.

moar sketch marketing.
Realforce 86UB - Razer Blackwidow - Dell AT101W - IBM model MCST  LtracX - Kensington Orbit - Logitech Trackman wheel opticalAMD PhenomII x6 - 16GB RAM - SSD - RAIDDell U2211H - Spyder3 - Eye One Display 2

Offline ch_123

  • Posts: 9094
Razer Mechanical?
« Reply #266 on: Fri, 03 September 2010, 07:15:51 »
Oh right. Then he was just spouting marketing BS.

Offline elbowglue

  • Posts: 1110
Razer Mechanical?
« Reply #267 on: Fri, 03 September 2010, 07:17:09 »
My conclusion is that the board is not NKRO, but it should suffice for almost all gaming.  Which is the case with almost all keyboards, even the non-nkro version of the filco, etc etc.
My keyboards: Filco Cherry Blue Tenkeyless(daily home), Compaq MX11800 (modded to blacks), Compaq "MX 84u",  Wellington\'s Dampened Endurapro, Pinkalicious Filco Blue Cherry, Chicony KB-5191, Chicony KB-5181, Desko MOS 5023 UP "elbowglue" spos (modded to blues), Siig Minitouch (monterey blue), SMK-88 (blue cherries), Ricercar SPOS
Smallest to biggest keyboards in inches (Length X Height) - Length is most important for a midline mouse position

KBC Poker: 11.6 x 3.9 - HHKB: 11.6 x 4.3 - Siig Minitouch (Geekhack Space Saver): 11.6 x 6 - Deck/Tg3 82: 12 x 6 - Noppoo Choc Mini 12.4 x 5.3 - Compaq "MX 84u": 13.1 x 7.5 - Filco Tenkeyless: 14 x 5.3 - Cherry "ricercar spos" G86-62410EUAGSA: 14 x 7.75 - Topre Realforce 86u: 14.4 x 6.65 - Desko "elbowglue spos" MOS 5023 UP: 14.5 x 8.4 - IBM Model M Spacesaver: 15.3 x 7 - G80-1800: 15.9 x 7.1 - Adesso MKB-125B: 16 x 7.3 - Compaq Mx11800, Cherry G80-11900: 16.25 x 7.5 - Filco Standard: 17.3 x 5.4 - Unicomp Endurapro: 17.9 x 7.1 - Adesso MKB-135B: 18.3 x 6.0 - Cherry G80-3000: 18.5 x 7.6 - IBM Model M, Unicomp Customizer: 19.3 x 8.27

Offline ch_123

  • Posts: 9094
Razer Mechanical?
« Reply #268 on: Fri, 03 September 2010, 07:24:12 »
NKRO isn't really a necessity for FPS or RTS gaming, but I wish they said it straight instead of talking nonsense.

Offline Phaedrus2129

  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 1467
Razer Mechanical?
« Reply #269 on: Fri, 03 September 2010, 08:45:52 »
I think I can talk quite a bit about the build quality, having used its sister keyboard the U9BL. It is after all just that mysterious M10BL with the added macro keys and a Razer logo.
Daily Driver: Noppoo Choc Mini
Currently own: IBM Model M 1391401 1988,  XArmor U9 prototype
Previously owned: Ricercar SPOS, IBM M13 92G7461 1994, XArmor U9BL, XArmor U9W prototype, Cherry G80-8200LPDUS, Cherry G84-4100, Compaq MX-11800, Chicony KB-5181 (SMK Monterey), Reveal KB-7061, Cirque Wave Keyboard (ergonomic rubber domes), NMB RT101 (rubber dome), Dell AT101W