Fallout: New Vegas

[chimera15]

Arrrrghhhh!

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It's not like I'm out there on the street corner reselling it.  That would definitely be illegal and unethical.

[instantkamera]

I didn't ignore your post.  I just didn't quote you cause I quoted someone else.  You obviously ignored my post though.

The law is clear, what I'm doing is not theft and it's not against the law.  If the cops arrest you for doing something which isn't illegal, well.

Im pretty sure the law is anything BUT clear. Depending where you live, this activity (file sharing) may or may not be legal or "tolerated". In MANY Countries, the laws currently in place are under scrutiny by those on the other side of the coin. As this is currently a very REAL issue, it is clear there is more to it then:

a) all software (or IP in general) should be free/shared etc.

b) the Industry should be able to dictate the usage of a piece of work to the letter, having supreme control over everything.

The issue is not black and white. So you arent a thief, just a cheapskate. And still full of ****.

[Phaedrus2129]

HEY



HEY GUYS




LET'S TALK ABOUT THE GAME k??

[instantkamera]

I have never played a fallout game. What's the deal? is it an FPS? Is it available on the PS3?

[chimera15]

Im pretty sure the law is anything BUT clear. Depending where you live, this activity (file sharing) may or may not be legal or "tolerated". In MANY Countries, the laws currently in place are under scrutiny by those on the other side of the coin. As this is currently a very REAL issue, it is clear there is more to it then:

a) all software (or IP in general) should be free/shared etc.

b) the Industry should be able to dictate the usage of a piece of work to the letter, having supreme control over everything.

The issue is not black and white. So you arent a thief, just a cheapskate. And still full of ****.

The fact is it's not been black and white since software has existed.  There's not going to be a solution because there isn't any.  That in my mind makes it pretty white.  Computers were made to crack and hack.  That was what they were originally designed to do, and are doing so to this day.  That's their purpose.  Putting a piece of intellectual property on one and hoping for it to be 100% secure and marketable therefore is a foolhardy attempt.  Or for that matter, any piece of pure media.

The only way you can even attempt it is to match exploit with anti-exploit, and it will continue to be this way.  Game companies are lagging far behind security, it's obvious.  Their games shouldn't be cracked the day they come out.

Even xbox, New Vegas was out and cracked for modded xboxes a week before it was released.  This shouldn't happen.

[Phaedrus2129]

I have never played a fallout game. What's the deal? is it an FPS? Is it available on the PS3?

Fallout 3 and Fallout: New Vegas are post-apocalyptic sandbox RPG FPS games with a lot of dark humor and a strong fanbase, though a history of technical issues. They are available on PC, 360, and PS3.

Fallout and Fallout 2 were post-apocalyptic isometric RPGs from the late 1990s with a lot of dark humor and an amazingly strong cult following, and a history of technical issues. Only for PC.

There was also Fallout: Tactics, which was an isometric tactical shooter that was kind of ok, and Fallout: Brotherhood of Steel, which sucked balls. And "Van Buren", which was going to be Fallout 3, but Interplay went bankrupt so it was never finished. Then the IP was sold to Bethesda, who made Fallout 3, and they then licensed it to Obsidian (made up of former Interplay developers) to make Fallout: New Vegas.

[chimera15]

and wasteland.

[elservo]

I just checked Steam for old Fallout games on Mac, and nope, no dice.  Oh well, it was worth a look.  I didn't know of any issues between Apple and the publisher for Fallout, so I guess if I had done a little homework first I wouldn't have went looking for it.  Lots of games on Steam for Mac, though.  That's good to see.

[elservo]

Geekhack is for guys who find fly-fishing too vigorous.

[Lanx]

i wonder if his stance is still the same 34 years later.

By William Henry Gates III

February 3, 1976

An Open Letter to Hobbyists

To me, the most critical thing in the hobby market right now is the lack of good software courses, books and software itself. Without good software and an owner who understands programming, a hobby computer is wasted. Will quality software be written for the hobby market?

Almost a year ago, Paul Allen and myself, expecting the hobby market to expand, hired Monte Davidoff and developed Altair BASIC. Though the initial work took only two months, the three of us have spent most of the last year documenting, improving and adding features to BASIC. Now we have 4K, 8K, EXTENDED, ROM and DISK BASIC. The value of the computer time we have used exceeds $40,000.

The feedback we have gotten from the hundreds of people who say they are using BASIC has all been positive. Two surprising things are apparent, however, 1) Most of these "users" never bought BASIC (less than 10% of all Altair owners have bought BASIC), and 2) The amount of royalties we have received from sales to hobbyists makes the time spent on Altair BASIC worth less than $2 an hour.

Why is this? As the majority of hobbyists must be aware, most of you steal your software. Hardware must be paid for, but software is something to share. Who cares if the people who worked on it get paid?

Is this fair? One thing you don't do by stealing software is get back at MITS for some problem you may have had. MITS doesn't make money selling software. The royalty paid to us, the manual, the tape and the overhead make it a break-even operation. One thing you do do is prevent good software from being written. Who can afford to do professional work for nothing? What hobbyist can put 3-man years into programming, finding all bugs, documenting his product and distribute for free? The fact is, no one besides us has invested a lot of money in hobby software. We have written 6800 BASIC, and are writing 8080 APL and 6800 APL, but there is very little incentive to make this software available to hobbyists. Most directly, the thing you do is theft.

What about the guys who re-sell Altair BASIC, aren't they making money on hobby software? Yes, but those who have been reported to us may lose in the end. They are the ones who give hobbyists a bad name, and should be kicked out of any club meeting they show up at.

I would appreciate letters from any one who wants to pay up, or has a suggestion or comment. Just write to me at 1180 Alvarado SE, #114, Albuquerque, New Mexico, 87108. Nothing would please me more than being able to hire ten programmers and deluge the hobby market with good software.



Bill Gates

General Partner, Micro-Soft

[elservo]

Bill Gates would have made something of himself if only he had dropped that dash between Micro and Soft.  Poor guy.

[Lanx]

Perhaps Bill Gates is not the best model for ethical behavior....

How about this guy?

Hey, it is legal in my state!

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Bill gates is giving away billions to charity while tiger has to pay millions for alimony. Who has a better sense of ethics?

really the crux of all this copyright and who deserves to get paid? lets look at example 1, Linus Torvalds, he just became a US citizen and of course is known as inventor/writer of Linux. He wrote a free OS, and other companys like Red Hat profitted by packaging the rewritten OS into a CD and offering support. Of course Red Hat didn't want to seem like a total ingrate and gave Linus stock options, but they didn't have to either. He has a good job position now and does well, but that's because he's Linus Torvalds, he made Linux, just like Bill Gates can go around the world giving free mosquito nets and vaccines to everyone, ppl will still think, hey his OS is running my netbook.

copyright pays and hurts industry,

buy a whole cd to get one song, everyone knows 90% of a CD is junk.
now they release singles. and itunes

well why can't Bluray be like this? why can't i just get a stripped down blue ray with no director's commentary or extra's and pay less?

the music industry wants everyone to pay for everything, they make it impossible for internet radio to function but let FM radio off the hook, a whole generation of ppl were brought up on the notion of a "mixed tape" were ppl really recording from one tape to another or were they waiting for the stupid DJ to stop talking so they could ninja press "play" + "rec" really fast?

Now if you give a mixed tape/CD/thumb drive to someone, your considerated a pirate.

i'm not taking a stance, just making a statement that the RIAA and the movie industry are all sorts of messed up with digital media and copyright and fair rights, and dvr's and tivo's and everything, while the software industry has always been at least constant, you steal... you steal, no wiggle room.
Of course even the software industry has stupid rules where MS says that windows is tied to a specific motherboard purchase/ or now the new license whatever thing with autodesk.

I just recently had a dinner convo with one guy and said that his movie nights with friends are essentially against the law, he's like how? and i'm like well your playing the dvd in your house and making a profit, he's like i don't make a profit. I go sure you do, as a good house guest ppl bring over sodas/beers chips and stuff right? he goes yea, I go well that could be considered an admission fee, cuz otherwise they wouldn't be allowed in.

Of course my example is absurd, but a good lawyer i'm sure could make a case out of it.

[WhiteRice]

Computers were made to crack and hack.  

Computers were made to calculate artillery tables.

[chimera15]

Computers were made to calculate artillery tables.

Uh, no, the first real computers or really calculators in modern times (non roman times) were made to gamble on horse racing.  There were tons of mechanical calculators leading up to ww2, that did a variety of things.  The first electronic ones which  could more accurately be defined as computers were built to crack codes.  Artillery falls probably somewhere in between there.  Actually Eniac and Colussus were sort of a tie.  


[youtube]C8jeWPfB_oM [/youtube]

[Rajagra]

this is probably the only non free game I'll play in a year or two, and built a whole system basically just to play it.

If I had an income and wasn't a poor student, that's hugely in debt I might consider buying it.

The sickening thing about your attitude is not so much that you want something for nothing. Most of us have "tested" software without paying for it at some stage. But you were so hyped about this upcoming game that you built a new system to play it on, and you are STILL unwilling to reward the creators?

My personal ethic is that if I *use* a product (as opposed to explore it) I will pay for it. That's why I bought Photoshop and several upgrades, even though it's insanely overpriced for personal use.

You can argue semantics all you like. You are acting dishonestly. Just because the people you are defrauding cannot hunt you down personally and you will get away with it, that doesn't mean your actions aren't illegal and unethical. You can't even be honest with yourself. If you built a system primarily for the game you could have afforded to pay for it.

If you are studying business ethics maybe you should put your own example forward for a class discussion. You might be surprised by the reactions.

===============
Edit> Not worth adding another post, but wanted to point this out:

Ethical decision making.  One of the things you learn in business 101.  Legality is the first of several tests, like how does it make you feel about yourself, and such.

http://www.compasssolutions.biz/id27.html

Did you even read the first paragraph of the page you linked???

Is it legal?
This is the first filter through which your ethical decision will pass.  Legal and ethical are not equivalent concepts.  ...  Don’t simply stop your ethical decision making process at whether an action is legal.  The law may not address something making it legal but it still may [be] unethical.

[chimera15]

The sickening thing about your attitude is not so much that you want something for nothing. Most of us have "tested" software without paying for it at some stage. But you were so hyped about this upcoming game that you built a new system to play it on, and you are STILL unwilling to reward the creators?

My personal ethic is that if I *use* a product (as opposed to explore it) I will pay for it. That's why I bought Photoshop and several upgrades, even though it's insanely overpriced for personal use.

You can argue semantics all you like. You are acting dishonestly. Just because the people you are defrauding cannot hunt you down personally and you will get away with it, that doesn't mean your actions aren't illegal and unethical. You can't even be honest with yourself. If you built a system primarily for the game you could have afforded to pay for it.

If you are studying business ethics maybe you should put your own example forward for a class discussion. You might be surprised by the reactions.

I wouldn't be surprised at the reaction, because the mpaa has so clouded the issue, and put forth ridiculous arguments that people that are clear thinking about the issue are just shouted down.

 It's not semantics, it's actually a very complex issue, as shown by the court decisions, and the endless appeals on the mpaa's side after the issue has already been decided over and over again on my side.  Courts don't rule on semantics.

I didn't really build the system for just fallout.  That was a complete simplification as it should be obvious.  I actually built it for Warrock.  Or actually in reality I built it just to build it to learn the ins and outs of building a socket 1366 system so I know how to work on them if I get a job as a pc tech as I have in the past.  Not to mention to learn how to overclock.  

Warrock is a free game that is ad and perk supported, and is a successful business model, even though it's been hacker ridden since its inception.  Fallout was probably about 10% of why I built it.  I have 3 other machines that could have run it as good or better than the 1366 system I built, cause right now I have crap graphics cards in it to play war rock on which has a bug in it right now that seems to work better with older graphics cards.

[elservo]

They should sell games with those intense graph cards that you have to match up, character-wise.  I know it would be cracked within a couple minutes by nerds with too many algorithms rattling about in their brains, but I just always dug those cards.

[chimera15]

Computers were made to calculate artillery tables.

Alright, here's a better clarification.

http://www.askthecomputertech.com/eniac.html

The code breaking computers were kept secret, and so no patents were issued.  The first computers were code breakers/crackers.

[chimera15]

Did you even read the first paragraph of the page you linked???

Uh, I believe I said that.  Do people even read a second sentence if I write it?  They just read the first sentence or first few words then ignore the rest?


Originally Posted by chimera15 View Post
Ethical decision making. One of the things you learn in business 101. Legality is the first of several tests, like how does it make you feel about yourself, and such.

http://www.compasssolutions.biz/id27.html

[Rajagra]

The point is, it is a "necessary but insufficient" test. It can prove something to be unethical, but it can't prove anything to be ethical.

[chimera15]

Actually the codecrackers (called bombes) were built by the "Greatest Generation" in order to fight pure evil.

Something slackers wouldn't know about.  Making up ethics to suit your needs.

Evil is relative.  You can define anything as evil, and justify your actions.  The fact is that computers were made to crack into and read private messages, and compromise intellectual property.  You can choose to justify that as being some higher purpose, but at it's foundation it's unethical, and even illegal if you were to try it in a non war condition.

[keyboardlover]

It's still illegal to crack or use cracked software if the license forbids it in the terms of you using it.

[instantkamera]

Cant argue anymore, this will turn into another "Graphics Cards" ... This guy is so full of **** that my monitor is starting to stink.

We win by default because of this:

I didn't really build the system for just fallout. That was a complete simplification as it should be obvious. I actually built it for Warrock. Or actually in reality I built it just to build it to learn the ins and outs of building a socket 1366 system so I know how to work on them if I get a job as a pc tech as I have in the past. Not to mention to learn how to overclock ... Fallout was probably about 10% of why I built it ...

=

I can't even write an entire paragraph without contradicting myself

Clearly there is some form of inner struggle going on, so we'll let you continue that on your own.

Back to the game!!

[Phaedrus2129]

I declare this thread fail.




Anyway, I've played the game long enough to spot most of the things that annoy me. Now time to head over to newvegasnexus.com to get mods to fix them. Not a *ton* of mods are out yet, but several useful ones are, such as the one to fix mouse acceleration, and one to give a further-out 3rd person view.

Only thing that pisses me off that a mod probably won't fix is graphics performance. With my Radeon HD4870 1GB I can totally max Fallout 3 on 1440x900 with a framerate of 45-80. In New Vegas, which has no graphical upgrades, I get 20-50. This should not be, since New Vegas actually has worse graphics for everything except faces; textures and objects pop in a lot closer even with draw distances maxed, new textures are muddy and un-detailed, there's less water and it isn't as well detailed... It isn't even DX10, it's all DX9 stuff. Why the **** can't I max this game like FO3? Because they didn't optimize it.

At least I don't have an nVidia card. I've heard that Nvidia users are getting terrible performance; GTX460s are performing at levels you'd expect of a GT440.

[Phaedrus2129]

I don't fold, personally.

As for FNV, I wonder if it's a CPU bottleneck... Maybe I'll bump up to 3700MHz and see if it's faster.

[muchadoaboutnothing]

It's still illegal to crack or use cracked software if the license forbids it in the terms of you using it.

Civilly, not criminally. That doesn't address the ethical issues.

[muchadoaboutnothing]

Bethesda is now forcing reviewers to pull negative reviews until the ad campaign is over or they won't advertise or ship preview games/materials to them ever again. Was this mentioned earlier in this thread?

[instantkamera]

Bethesda is now forcing reviewers to pull negative reviews until the ad campaign is over or they won't advertise or ship preview games/materials to them ever again. Was this mentioned earlier in this thread?

sha-dy


So I guess I should try fallout3 first on my ps3.

"durr, what's a fallout?" ... ****, can you tell Im not a gamer?

[zefrer]

[YOUTUBE]ToKIkw3LIoQ[/YOUTUBE]

Guess I'll wait till it isn't a horrible broken mess released too soon.

[instantkamera]

Well I knew you were here just for the trollin'.

not true. I'm here to stalk you. Until I saw your forearm in the writing utensil thread I though you were a chick. I'm still not convinced otherwise.