Extreme anti-gosting coming to the masses...

[elef]

There is a presumption that it's much cheaper to add pressure sensitivity to only a few keys.

Well, partly. Depending on the tech, the pressure sensitive keys could be awful to type on, so you don't necessarily want them on the alphanumeric section... But that's not the main point; you have entirely sidestepped all the relevant questions. Does this ship in any keyboard right now, and is MS planning to give it some driver support? If not, it will probably go from the lab straight to the museum...

[manfaux]

Time for the World's Only Doubleshot Windows Logo Key

Show Image

You spelled defenseless wrong you moron.

i'll pay up to $100 for this key, PM me for details.

[FunkTrooper]

Actually, he didn't spell defenceless wrong, he just spelt it the British way.

[Findecanor]

Spelt. More nutritious than regular wheat. Some people say that it tastes better also. I dunno, but my pancakes were yummy.

All keyboard  engineers have to do is reverse engineer the Sidewinder X4 USB interface.  No new protocols needed.

So the Sidewinder X4 has pressure gradient sensitive keys then? ...

I think it would be best if the spec was published on a public web site for everyone to use.

[Daniel Beaver]

Neat, I hope this technology gets more widely distributed. I like my 6+KRO boards.

[Reaif]

It would be pretty cool if pressure sensitivity was also variable (on or off) with some kind of switch or setting. That way you could type on it regularly without the world going haywire.

[Paul Dietz]

It would be pretty cool if pressure sensitivity was also variable (on or off) with some kind of switch or setting. That way you could type on it regularly without the world going haywire.

You can think of it this way - all keyboards are pressure sensitive, but most only have 1 bit of resolution (on or off). We're just adding more bits. But you can always ignore those extra bits. Or you could use them to set a different on/off threshold. It's just code...

[nigritude]

this is exciting... minus the fact that (if waiting for clickclacks and leopolds are any indication), it will take forever to migrate to mechanical keyboards

[quadibloc]

Congratulations.

Other people here might be able to answer the question I have, though.

The Model F was around... for a long time. Why hasn't anyone, except Topre, used capacitative technology to provide better multitouch without diodes? Is Topre's approach - which I presume is well-protected by patents - the only one possible, apart from the buckling spring (or the beam spring, which is too expensive to consider)?

I would have thought that you could just take a rubber dome sheet, paint conductive dots on it, and then coat it with an insulating layer - and, poof, you have a capacitative keyboard that works, and, no, you don't need the springs. What am I missing?

[TexasFlood]

Cool news, much more interesting that I expected.  When I first read the thread title quickly, I thought it said "extreme anti-goating coming to the masses...", maybe it's because I recently watched "The Men Who Stare at Goats", :wink:.

[digitalleftovers]

Hey, here's an idea. Don't be a douchebag.  He didn't have to tell us a damn thing.  He didn't have to make an attempt to associate with the community.  He sure as hell doesn't owe you a damn thing. If you don't like him or what his company sells, there are alternatives.  Get linux, get a mac, get a goddamn dog, I don't care.  We'd like to encourage more developer discussion with the enthusiast community, not discourage it.

seconded.

Oh! he could get yellow-dog linux and run it on a mac! (possibly ashamed of that comment).

[chimborazo]

You spelled defenseless wrong you moron.

And "yourselves."  Hey, but what do expect from an 8th-grader?

I thought it said "extreme anti-goating coming to the masses...", maybe it's because I recently watched "The Men Who Stare at Goats"

rofl oh gosh


the technology that could

[Moogle Stiltzkin]

I'm a mechanical keyboard fan (cherry mx variety specifically); but i do think this is a good step.

Majority of people won't want to spend a wad of cash of a keyboard on the get go, since CPU, hard drive, graphics card, monitor etc usually takes precedent. So a starter rubberdome keyboard with the side winder's tech for that 17KRO would be amazing.

I do think 17KRO is overkill, but the gist of the matter is, at least it ain't 2-6kro.  6kro probably ok, but if your a nit picker like me, we do after all have 10 fingers (cough cough).


Anyways, will this side winder usb nkro tech make it to mechanical keyboards or is it strictly going to be for rubberdome ?

I'm more interested to know about the up take of this tech on mech keyboards.

[slueth]

Alright! Cheap 17KRO..

A couple years ago me and my brother played liero on one computer and I wish this technology existed.

The problem is that only gamers really need anti-ghosting technology, and if it affects prices then people might just grab the one without anti-ghosting and call it a day.

If the licensing fee is not too high(define cheap), it would be worth it for companies to add this technology; the masses would have this technology and it might be a new standard for cheap keyboards without diodes.

Pressure sensitivity .. is that in game controllers yet?  

Microsoft can be aggressive when they push their "new" technology but you can't stomp all competition.

I live in Seattle, I should drive to the campus and give you guys all high fives!

[Findecanor]

When I first read the thread title quickly, I thought it said "extreme anti-goating coming to the masses...", maybe it's because I recently watched "The Men Who Stare at Goats", :wink:.

And here I had thought that the anti-goating movement was protesting against goatees, not goats.

[Ekaros]

So when we get HID-driver which works with more than 6KRO?

I got nothing against MS(or maybe a bit with Nokia...), they are very decent hardware company, even if their OS is quite popular and not always the best option

[ch_123]

Given that Ghosting is a pretty severe keyboard design failure that most keyboards don't have, the OP title is like advertising a car with "EXTREME ANTI-EXPLODING ENGINE DESIGN".

Someone needs to figure out the difference between ghosting and blocking...

Other people here might be able to answer the question I have, though.

The Model F was around... for a long time. Why hasn't anyone, except Topre, used capacitative technology to provide better multitouch without diodes? Is Topre's approach - which I presume is well-protected by patents - the only one possible, apart from the buckling spring (or the beam spring, which is too expensive to consider)?

I would have thought that you could just take a rubber dome sheet, paint conductive dots on it, and then coat it with an insulating layer - and, poof, you have a capacitative keyboard that works, and, no, you don't need the springs. What am I missing?

Keytronic and BTC used to have capacitive foam'n'foil switches back in the day. The more simplified mechanism you describe could work, but perhaps it would not be precise enough to provide reliable capacitive switching?

Either way, the last I checked, diodes are pretty cheap compared with capacitive contacts. IBM did at one point have a patent for a capacitive membrane, but seemingly nothing came of it.

[keyb_gr]

Given that Ghosting is a pretty severe keyboard design failure that most keyboards don't have, the OP title is like advertising a car with "EXTREME ANTI-EXPLODING ENGINE DESIGN".

Someone needs to figure out the difference between ghosting and blocking...

I think rechecking the target group definitions might do. A thread title like this is clearly targeting the un-/misinformed masses. Fine all by itself, but not ideal in a place where people are aware of said difference.

Either way, the last I checked, diodes are pretty cheap compared with capacitive contacts.

They require an awful lot of solder joints though. Thus I'd expect capacitive concepts to be more reliable, especially under tough conditions (heavy vibration etc.).

[quadibloc]

Keytronic and BTC used to have capacitive foam'n'foil switches back in the day.

Of course, foam and foil - used on the Atex keyboard, as someone here mentioned - is generally considered pretty horrible from a tactile point of view.

Either way, the last I checked, diodes are pretty cheap compared with capacitive contacts.

It isn't so much the diodes, as soldering them in to the circuit board. But even capacitative - since it usually uses a PC board for the contacts, rather than a membrane - adds significant manufacturing costs, which is likely one reason why it isn't used more.

[clickclack]

...Other people here might be able to answer the question I have, though....

...I would have thought that you could just take a rubber dome sheet, paint conductive dots on it, and then coat it with an insulating layer - and, poof, you have a capacitative keyboard that works, and, no, you don't need the springs. What am I missing?

....Keytronic and BTC used to have capacitive foam'n'foil switches back in the day. The more simplified mechanism you describe could work, but perhaps it would not be precise enough to provide reliable capacitive switching?....

I don't think I am any kind of authority on this subject but I do believe I have seen numerous keyboards that have what you (quadibloc) suggest. Painted/printed conductive dots and/or patterned traces on membranes with corresponding conductive dots on the rubber domes. I have a number of keyboards with this with either the conductive material on a membrane or PCB, both with rubber domes.

I don't know if that helps but there ya go.
 =)

[ch_123]

It works fine when you're dealing with electric switching, but when you start dealing with capacitance, it's hard to say. I'm not an expert too, but I'm willing to say that if more basic capacitive rubber dome mechanisms could be made, they would have been.

It isn't so much the diodes, as soldering them in to the circuit board. But even capacitative - since it usually uses a PC board for the contacts, rather than a membrane - adds significant manufacturing costs, which is likely one reason why it isn't used more.

IBM had a design for a capacitive membrane system (it's in one of the patents in the beam spring section of the IBM Wiki). Presumably it didn't prove cost effective enough relative to the utility it provided. Nonetheless, capacitive membranes are plausible - the Apple Mighty Mouse (and probably the magic mouse too) has the capacitive sensing implementing on flexible plastic, albeit on a much smaller scale compared with what a keyboard would need.

I think rechecking the target group definitions might do. A thread title like this is clearly targeting the un-/misinformed masses. Fine all by itself, but not ideal in a place where people are aware of said difference.

Granted, but that within of itself can help perpetuate the misconceptions. Some companies *coughsrazercoughs* use this stuff on their marketing material, and I've already seen people on OCN say stuff like "The Razer is better than the Deck, because the Razer has 'anti ghosting' technology" (even though the Deck is 6KRO to the Razer's 2)

[Nadger]

this is exciting... minus the fact that (if waiting for clickclacks and leopolds are any indication), it will take forever to migrate to mechanical keyboards

Razer will make one after everyone else has already made one and claim they are first.   Just like every cellphone company claims they have the most coverage*, or fastest network*, or every truck commerical claims their truck has the most towing and payload capacities*, horsepower*, and torque*.  Or how tv makers claim 5000000000:1 contrast ratio*

* = if you calculate it a custom way that we invented to legally claim this as true without being false advertising~

They of course will also take credit for the R&D -O

[chimborazo]

for what it's worth - quadibloc echoes the background w/ 4,920,343. i am unsure whether it is the same one that ch 123 mentions

"Various capacitance detection schemes have been devised for satisfactorily dealing with the above described detection problem. One such detector circuit is described in detail in U.S. Pat. No. 4,728,931 issued to W.J. Linder, et al. on Mar. 1, 1988 and assigned to the assignee of the present application. Satisfactory implementation of this detector circuit, as well as most somewhat similar circuits, depends on careful balancing of the actuated and unactuated key switch capacitances, the sense node to ground capacitance and the capacitance value of a reference capacitor in the detector circuit.

As apparent from the above identified patent, the detector circuit disclosed therein is well suited for fabrication as an integrated circuit using standard CMOS integrated circuit designs which provide for low power consumption and low cost. Such designs are sensitive to input signal voltage parameters. In particular, input signal voltages less than the circuit reference voltage by more than a predetermined amount may cause latch-up and destruction of the circuit. In prior capacitive keyboard designs using metal housings and other components which furnished a conductive backplane, the sense node to ground capacitance provided inherent protection against excessively negative sense node voltages.

More recent keyboard designs directed at high volume keyboard markets which have become increasingly cost competitive have tended away from metal components and toward all plastic construction. This greatly reduces the sense node to ground capacitance and the control it provided over excessively negative input signal voltages. It is apparent that the sense node to ground capacitance could be reintroduced by adding a metallized membrane backplane or equivalent elements. However, the addition of parts is undesirable from manufacturing cost considerations."

[nigritude]

^ that just made realize how much a topre actually is ... hahaha

[AvengeR]

pressure sensitive keys is one of those things that could change pc interfaces completely, but it won't since it requires compatible software and that is not profitable (risky new technology that needs special hardware). The only possible way is microsoft develops games and other applications that use it.

another posibility is it could become so cheap to produce that every keyboard has it in the feature, then only some people would know how to use that "hidden" feature.

also it's not like i'm against it; I've been waiting that for years. The thing is it requires commitment from other companies, and as we have seen in the past (ps2 and xbox1) it ends not being used and then discontinued since it's an expense no matter how minimal it is(ps3 and xbox360 controllers do not have front analog buttons anymore).

[killy]

Have you seen the amount of circuitry on the Topre PCB?  It's cost.

Unless of course you can drive the volume.  Then it gets cheap.

You can buy one of these for one Topre.

That depends. Do they order thousands at one time, or smaller batches? It seems like initial tooling of the machines to produce the PCB is what costs the money; actually making a batch would not cost very much. I doubt the PCB is that complex, given graphics cards can be had for the same price with denser features.

[SirDrexl]

also it's not like i'm against it; I've been waiting that for years. The thing is it requires commitment from other companies, and as we have seen in the past (ps2 and xbox1) it ends not being used and then discontinued since it's an expense no matter how minimal it is(ps3 and xbox360 controllers do not have front analog buttons anymore).

Actually, they still do have pressure-sensitive buttons.  It's just that most games don't bother to use them in that way.  Analog triggers are much easier to use for throttling the amount of pressure, and games generally don't need more than 2 such inputs (usually gas and brake for driving games, which if you ask me is pretty much why they were invented in the first place).

One game that can use the sensitivity is Gran Turismo 5, although I would switch to the analog triggers anyway because it makes it a lot easier.  Well, before I got a wheel I would.  

[False_Dmitry_II]

The thing is it requires commitment from other companies, and as we have seen in the past (ps2 and xbox1) it ends not being used and then discontinued since it's an expense no matter how minimal it is(ps3 and xbox360 controllers do not have front analog buttons anymore).

Fair point, however, on each there are glaring reasons why it never really took off.

For the PS2 it was the simple fact that you were allowed to use any playstation 1 controller in any game. So you would have a giant subset of people who are using controllers that do not have this capability because they never bothered to buy a new one just for this feature. So why would you want to alienate those people?

For the xbox 1, it actually was sorta like the gamecube triggers that someone mentioned earlier: where it would slowly increase the output of how much you're pulling on the trigger until you hit the final actual button which was seperate. It may not be physically like that on the main buttons on the xbox controller, but it is like that de facto. I never noticed the final press until I played a game which did not use the analog part at all, only the final press for all actions in the game. I was surprised at how much more you can push those buttons in than I thought you could. It was simply too difficult to do for every single thing in the game so I used a PS2 -> xbox controller converter but used a PS1 controller with on off buttons only, which worked great. (you can feel it bottom out though)

[AvengeR]

Actually, they still do have pressure-sensitive buttons.  It's just that most games don't bother to use them in that way.  Analog triggers are much easier to use for throttling the amount of pressure, and games generally don't need more than 2 such inputs (usually gas and brake for driving games, which if you ask me is pretty much why they were invented in the first place).

One game that can use the sensitivity is Gran Turismo 5, although I would switch to the analog triggers anyway because it makes it a lot easier.  Well, before I got a wheel I would.  

I know for a fact that the 360 does not. Also the interwebz says ps3 doesn't as well but I'm not so sure because i know gt5 uses X for the accelerator.

racing games are a great example. Logitech charges $150 just for a third motion sensitive button (g27 v. driving force gt)

also you spot the problem perfectly: companies don't think they are needed because in reality they just aren't for most people. Almost no one appreciates clutch in racing games and even less people care about pressing it smoothly.
The thing is pressure sensitive buttons have such a great potential. The best example I can think of now is a fps game in which you have perfect control of your movements.

[elef]

Analog (=not on-off) controls are pretty much a must for enjoying driving games, so it's far from a useless feature.
I have GT5 and a PS3 slim, so I went ahead and tried it just now. I remapped throttle and brake to the triggers when I got the game in order to get analog controls, and even murmured "what were they thinking" under my breath. It turns out that the face buttons are indeed pressure sensitive, which I never expected. You get passable control with them, I can keep the car at 1/4, 1/3 or 1/2 throttle fairly easily, but of course I have to watch the on-screen throttle and brake displays for that. The trigger buttons are way better, because you always know how far you've pressed them without having to rely on some in-game indirect feedback.

So I guess that settles it, the PS3 has pressure sensitive face buttons (all 8 of them), but nobody knows it. They don't work all that great, to be honest. I'm not sure when I got my ps3, about a year ago I guess. There might have been a silent hw revision since I got mine, but I seriously doubt they took out the feature. Mine is a slim so there has been no major announced hardware change since it was made.

I have no idea what technology sony uses for this, but it's somewhat promising for the MS tech. These things don't feel any different from any rubber domes when they bottom out, so the pressure sensitivity could be an add-on that doesn't change the button feel at all. Of course it would only work with keyboards where you have to bottom out all the time, so mechanicals are pretty much out. Again, they don't give you too nuanced control, but they could be used for adjusting the weight where keypresses are registered, and some scrolling/panning/zooming/moving around features.