Red will be the new brown

[Input Nirvana]

Brown, maybe not enough tactile bump.
Reds, no tactile bump. (brown springs)

So what about a switch with Brown springs and more tactile bump?
---Ergo Clears---?

I want to get 3 samples of each switch.

[sordna]

I haven't tried ergo clears. How do they feel compared to blue switches?

[litster]

I have a ton of clear switches now.  I just don't have enough blue or brown springs.  anyone has some for trade for clear stems?  I want to try ergo clear...

[AndrewZorn]

After a few days with my Red board, I'm missing the click, and may go back to Blue. For a FPS game or something, it would be fine, but typing and SC2 do seem to benefit from the feedback... the feel is subjective and I go back and forth all the time as to which I'd ultimately prefer.

Good thing there's a Brown on its way. I started with Brown, would be funny if I ended up using it exclusively again after two years.

[Trueepower]

After a few days with my Red board, I'm missing the click, and may go back to Blue. For a FPS game or something, it would be fine, but typing and SC2 do seem to benefit from the feedback... the feel is subjective and I go back and forth all the time as to which I'd ultimately prefer.

Good thing there's a Brown on its way. I started with Brown, would be funny if I ended up using it exclusively again after two years.

 
That's the thing some people really prefer the feedback, and I can see their perspective as well. During gaming there were times when I really liked the feedback, and then there were times when I didn't. Overall, I found tactile feedback helpful at times, but not necessary for everyday use. I just see both perspectives though.

[Trueepower]

I do bottom out regularly.  That may explains why I like red.  Plus with thick double shot keycaps, there is more "bass" in the throck sound when you buttom out, which I like.

 
That's exactly how I think. I am going to bottom out a lot anyways so why pick a spring with more resistance, and why have tactile feedback? I think for tactile feedback was good in someways though while gaming. Just overall not needed. Although, as I said in my last post.... I see both perspectives. People are different, they like different switches.

I wish I could get my hands on some double shots. That definitely would create a different sound when bottoming out.

[bojinglebells]

i'd rather have brown in my pants than red *cough*

and I'd rather have clearish/white

[elitekeyboards]

I wouldn't call them well-rounded, I would call them a bad compromise; an indecisive switch!
The problem with the browns, is that they're hardly tactile. As some folks pointed out they feel like something's wrong with the switch... it's just frictiony and the bump is vague. It doesn't even match the actuation point... I can get past the bump without registering a keystroke. It can best be described as a tactile switch that lost its tactileness, or a linear switch that got some dirt inside. I've been using browns for years, what a relief the Advantage LF keyboard has been with the reds!

Yawn...you're being sensational. It really doesn't matter to me if people prefer browns over reds...we just carry more reds and sell the same amount of boards...but I'm not still in business because I make knee-jerk decisions and listen to hype.

You're of course entitled to your opinion, but saying things like you can "get past the bump without registering a keystroke" sounds like exaggeration..."oh yea? if I press this switch eversoslightly at a rate of 0.1mm per second I can pass the bump without actuating..." And so what? Lots of people can "trick" systems that otherwise work perfectly fine in normal intended operational environments, but it doesn't mean it is a failure as a system. The fact linear switches have no tactile indication of actuation is MAJOR shortcoming for people who aren't looking at the screen or point of input while typing something.

[HaiiYaa]

The fact linear switches have no tactile indication of actuation is MAJOR shortcoming for people who aren't looking at the screen or point of input while typing something.

 
Really? Never ever was a problem for me

After using linear switches for more than a week you will know exactly when its the keypress have been registered

[elitekeyboards]

Really? Never ever was a problem for me

After using linear switches for more than a week you will know exactly when its the keypress have been registered

"Never ever" is one week? I've been using them for over a year off and on. I'm unimpressed. They're so light with no tactility you almost always bottom out, so that might not be a problem most the time, but that doesn't mean it won't always not be a problem.

I'm not here to spread FUD, like I said, brown or red makes no difference to me, so arguing with me on this basis in any regard is of no utility. The point is that browns have been a staple for a long time, and for good reason, with good research and millions of hours of field testing; reds have not. The grass is always greener on the other side...

[flaming_june]

I do bottom out regularly.  That may explains why I like red.  Plus with thick double shot keycaps, there is more "bass" in the throck sound when you buttom out, which I like.

Understandable, as the more quicker we type, the more force we apply with each finger.  As you said, it's about personal preference.  LOL, never ever.

[sordna]

The fact linear switches have no tactile indication of actuation is MAJOR shortcoming for people who aren't looking at the screen or point of input while typing something.

I'm not saying tactility is a bad thing. It's great, implemented correctly, like in the case of buckling springs or cherry blues. However the cherry browns' tactility doesn't provide enough feedback. You can't "float" the keypresses they way you can with buckling springs or cherry blues... it just feels like a weird friction with the brown switches in particular, at least to me.
I like blues, and I love reds, each for different reasons, but I find browns a mediocre switch.

[litster]

The grass is always more red to me

[The Solutor]

I wouldn't call them well-rounded, I would call them a bad compromise; an indecisive switch!
The problem with the browns, is that they're hardly tactile. As some folks pointed out they feel like something's wrong with the switch... it's just frictiony and the bump is vague. It doesn't even match the actuation point... I can get past the bump without registering a keystroke. It can best be described as a tactile switch that lost its tactileness, or a linear switch that got some dirt inside. I've been using browns for years, what a relief the Advantage LF keyboard has been with the reds!

 

Exactly

[The Solutor]

So what about a switch with Brown springs and more tactile bump?

 
http://geekhack.org/showthread.php?17357-U9BL-Beige-edition-(clear-switches-brown-springs)&p=333606&viewfull=1#post333606

[HaiiYaa]

"Never ever" is one week? I've been using them for over a year off and on. I'm unimpressed. They're so light with no tactility you almost always bottom out, so that might not be a problem most the time, but that doesn't mean it won't always not be a problem.

I'm not here to spread FUD, like I said, brown or red makes no difference to me, so arguing with me on this basis in any regard is of no utility. The point is that browns have been a staple for a long time, and for good reason, with good research and millions of hours of field testing; reds have not. The grass is always greener on the other side...

Not everyone is the same. I absolutely HATE the bump

You been using them for a year but yet haven't learned to touch type?

[Input Nirvana]

http://geekhack.org/showthread.php?17357-U9BL-Beige-edition-(clear-switches-brown-springs)&p=333606&viewfull=1#post333606

AAAhhh....your "ergo clear" mod I was just reading! Is my best bet to go to Mouser or Digikey and buy the handful of misc. switches to try out?

[daerid]

The point is that browns have been a staple for a long time, and for good reason, with good research and millions of hours of field testing; reds have not.

 
Not yet... but apparently the demand for reds is growing, and growing pretty strong.

Speaking of which, after lubing up the stabilizers on this PLU ML-87, I'm almost diggin it more than my Filco Linear R... maybe it's the material the caps are made up. But the sound is most satisfying.

[The Solutor]

AAAhhh....your "ergo clear" mod I was just reading! Is my best bet to go to Mouser or Digikey and buy the handful of misc. switches to try out?

 

You could take a look also to armygroup (last time I checked they were sold out) and to cherry boards off ebay.

For me a brand new cherry board was the cheapest option, likely for you is different...

[Trueepower]

"Never ever" is one week? I've been using them for over a year off and on. I'm unimpressed. They're so light with no tactility you almost always bottom out, so that might not be a problem most the time, but that doesn't mean it won't always not be a problem.

I'm not here to spread FUD, like I said, brown or red makes no difference to me, so arguing with me on this basis in any regard is of no utility. The point is that browns have been a staple for a long time, and for good reason, with good research and millions of hours of field testing; reds have not. The grass is always greener on the other side...

 
The grass isn't always greener on the other side. It just so happens that the popularity of browns, and reds is more even than maybe anticipated. How even is it? Who knows. But, there seems to be a legit following for red switches developing. Time will tell how many people really like red switches.

[Wallach]

I recently tried to go back to a brown switch board after using a HHKB Pro for a while, and I really didn't care for them either. They're not bad switches, but the way they produce tactility is just odd feeling.

As for reds, I'm not certain if they're really going to replace browns. Even with the comparably light tactility on browns, it's still there, and the action of a red doesn't feel very similar to my fingers. Ultimately I think the mass market is more interested in typing feel when looking at keyboards (an element I think Razer recognized when using blue switches in a "gaming" keyboard) and I don't know if any type of linear switch will catch on in the same way as any tactile switch for that purpose.

[Chobopants]

I split my time 50/50 between Red/Brown on a day to day basis (work = red, home = brown) and I think this backlash against Browns is kind of unwarranted. They're still amazing switches and the first ones I'd recommend to anyone looking to get into mechanicals. Reds have their own issues (once you learn to not bottom out lighter mechanical keys the feedback of Browns is quite nice) and if I had one switch to choose it'd be the Browns.

[sordna]

Speaking of which, after lubing up the stabilizers on this PLU ML-87, I'm almost diggin it more than my Filco Linear R... maybe it's the material the caps are made up. But the sound is most satisfying.

Did you lube the red stems? Could you post an article about this with more details? Sounds interesting!

[Trueepower]

I split my time 50/50 between Red/Brown on a day to day basis (work = red, home = brown) and I think this backlash against Browns is kind of unwarranted. They're still amazing switches and the first ones I'd recommend to anyone looking to get into mechanicals. Reds have their own issues (once you learn to not bottom out lighter mechanical keys the feedback of Browns is quite nice) and if I had one switch to choose it'd be the Browns.

 
Yeah, keyboards are made for typist, not for gamers. With that said, I could see red entering into the gaming market to take over a lot of the black switch keyboards. The clear switch seems to really be the odd one out. Although, there are people who like that switch as well... it seems less people do.

[The Solutor]

The clear switch seems to really be the odd one out. Although, there are people who like that switch as well... it seems less people do.

 
Clears are not more odd than browns, Browns are too linear, Clears are too stiff. The correct middle way (ergo clear) is missing in the current cherry production.

Btw Clears are less common than browns just because aren't sold in Asia.

[The Solutor]

But, there seems to be a legit following for red switches developing.

 
 EK tend (obviously) to overrate the technology behind switches.

They aren't nano sized gyoroscopes or rocket engines, they are just switches.  A 25 years old switch based on a 100+ years old technology.

A red switch is just a well known switch with a softer spring, hardly the galaxy will implode because an unforeseen detail on this.

An BTW any industries of this kind is used to test the production, firstly inside the plants, then using the worker as early tester, then selling the first batches just inside the province, the region, or the nation.

[Trueepower]

Yeah, I know how rare clears are compared to the rest of the switches. Maybe if more people tried them they would like them who knows. Cherry switches are all common to each other, but if some are more popular then you will see them produced more. If there is really a good demand for a red switch then it will be produced, and available for years to come with the other switches. If it is that good in peoples eyes.

[Input Nirvana]

EK tend (obviously) to overrate the technology behind switches.

They aren't nano sized gyoroscopes or rocket engines, they are just switches.  A 25 years old switch based on a 100+ years old technology.

A red switch is just a well known switch with a softer spring, hardly the galaxy will implode because an unforeseen detail on this.

An BTW any industries of this kind is used to test the production, firstly inside the plants, then using the worker as early tester, then selling the first batches just inside the province, the region, or the nation.

Nicely stated.

[theferenc]

I actually do think brown is a good place to start, specifically because it's a jack of all trades mediocre type switch. As mentioned before, it has a little of everything Cherry MX offers. Push fast and hard, it's pretty close to linear. Type slowly or softly, it's tactile. If you like the tactility, move to blue. If you like the linearity, move to red. If it's too light, try clear or black.

Besides, a lot of folks like them, specifically because they are the mediocre (read: average) switch. There's not much explicitly wrong with them, after all. I don't like them, many others don't like them, but that doesn't mean they are bad switches. Just not for us.

I don't think reds should be a first switch. It's too specialized, from my perspective. It's a light force linear switch, so you don't have anything to compare it to, really, and you don't know where to go next if it doesn't click for you (pun not intended).

[Tony]

If you bottom out every key, you will not find the tactile bump of brown very clearly. But with softer hands, you tend to float over the keyboards and tapping the keys with just enough force, you will appreciate the tactile brown greatly.


The tactile bump of brown is most felt when you press just over the actuation point 2mm, not at bottom out 4mm.

So if you bottom out often, you will find reds softer to your liking, since with brown you have to use stronger force (55g) to overcome the pressure point.