Author Topic: QGMLWB by carpalx  (Read 7264 times)

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Online oneproduct

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QGMLWB by carpalx
« on: Mon, 19 September 2011, 20:18:38 »
http://mkweb.bcgsc.ca/carpalx/?full_optimization

[ Attachment Invalid Or Does Not Exist ] 26941[/ATTACH]

So does anyone actually use this? I'm trying to switch to it now from Colemak as I am curious about it and sort of figure it deserves a trial. At the least then maybe I can bring it to layout discussions in the future if anyone else ever wants an opinion. Did Dvorak before Colemak and QWERTY before that, so I've got some bases covered. Averaged about 85 WPM in those.

Discussion about the layout would be welcome.
« Last Edit: Mon, 19 September 2011, 21:02:41 by oneproduct »
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QGMLWB by carpalx
« Reply #1 on: Tue, 20 September 2011, 01:45:04 »
Isn't it at most like 2% better than Colemak?

Overall, however, it looks interesting. Please tell us your thoughts: I'm considering switching from my Dvorak. (I've now typed in Dvorak longer than QWERTY)

Offline Tony

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QGMLWB by carpalx
« Reply #2 on: Tue, 20 September 2011, 04:15:18 »
With 1-2% better or worse, all modern layout are pretty the same in efficiency, but switching from one to another (Dvorak to Colemak, Arensito to QGMLWB) takes a lot of time, so I do not recommend switching the layout often.
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QGMLWB by carpalx
« Reply #3 on: Tue, 20 September 2011, 11:20:25 »
I was more interested in the "feel" of the layout. While Dvorak and Colemak may both be similar in efficiency, they have a very different approach to reaching that efficiency and having tried both, I have to say that I much prefer Colemak and am glad I tried it even after learning Dvorak. I'm hoping the jump from Colemak to QGMLWB (shall we just call this QG for short?) will be equally exciting in that sense. From what I've tried of QG, it seems to be a little between the two with a healthy dose of alternation and rolling, but I'm far too slow with it for now to tell and not entirely sure I'll be able to fully pick it up because of school.

One quick thing to mention is that the inclusion of H on the hand with the vowels makes for far more rolling motions. You get "tHE", "tHAt", "tHOugh" and other similar common goodies. It seems that the letter H is pretty much always followed by a vowel. Off hand the only ones where I know it isn't is when it is at the end of a word (tenth) and weight, though I'm sure I'm just missing some.
« Last Edit: Tue, 20 September 2011, 11:36:20 by oneproduct »
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QGMLWB by carpalx
« Reply #4 on: Tue, 20 September 2011, 12:19:52 »
It sorta looks like opposite Dvorak to me, Dvorak has the vowels on the left, QG has them on the right. I mist say, the inclusion of "h" on the homerow in Dvorak makes words like "The" really easy to type.

Good point about "H" almost always being followed by a vowel, though.

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QGMLWB by carpalx
« Reply #5 on: Tue, 20 September 2011, 13:19:49 »
You get similar in Dvorak actually since you have T and H together, which is actually even more common. It's just in Colemak where you lose that, which I recall someone here complaining about, specifically how you have to move to one of the middle columns to reach the H and then because of that movement you'd no longer have your finger hovering on top of the E. However, if you were going to put a consonant over with the vowels, H does seem like a very good choice. You lose the TH, which is the most common digraph in English apparently, but HE is the second and you gain all the other H-vowels as well.

What I was more curious about is why the left hand has STN in that order. A look at common digraphs would make me think that having the N before the T (as is done in Dvorak) would be much more useful in terms of performing rolling motions (though perhaps it would unbalance finger load, which is something more difficult for me to analyse). Furthermore, I would even think that having NST in that order would be even more useful as S and T seem to have a tendency to follow N rather than leading it, not to mention the use of the letter S to pluralize any word that may end in N. Also, as T is a more common letter than N, moving it as such would put it on the more apt index finger (though again, perhaps this is undesirable as the index finger is already busy reaching for the middle column). One thing that is influencing it is perhaps the fact that T and L are on different fingers in the STN arrangement why would reduce same finger usage for words ending with -tly whereas in NST they would lie on the same finger... Hmmm... maybe I better try his layout simulator.

Here's something nifty to look at as well regarding this type of thing: http://scottbryce.com/cryptograms/stats.htm
« Last Edit: Tue, 20 September 2011, 14:04:17 by oneproduct »
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Offline Playtrumpet

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QGMLWB by carpalx
« Reply #6 on: Tue, 20 September 2011, 14:07:26 »
Do we have any hard stats on the ease of typing these most common digraphs, trigraphs, short words, etc.? And where are people on the alteration vs. rolling thing and do we have good statistics on those things? I'm not someone who debates, I just like looking at facts. Thanks for that list; I find that information really cool. ^_^
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QGMLWB by carpalx
« Reply #7 on: Tue, 20 September 2011, 14:49:56 »
Well for things like the "ease" of typing things, it's subjective. It's hard to argue whether alternating is better or worse than rolling. I've tried both Dvorak and Colemak and I have to say that I personally prefer rolling. Some things that are more certain are that when you do roll, it's nicer to roll from the outside of the keyboard inwards, which is why I think that the STN order on the left hand of QG isn't as good as it could be because N seldom comes after S or T but it does come before them quite often. The stats on the carpalx site do include considerations for the ease of typing trigraphs however, so there is some evidence there to support that his layout does perform well in that regard, though it's possible that it scored slightly worse in that and better in other fields which made it come out on top overall, not sure if you can see exactly how much of an effect that individual aspect had on it.
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QGMLWB by carpalx
« Reply #8 on: Tue, 20 September 2011, 17:46:10 »
Quote from: oneproduct;419116
I was more interested in the "feel" of the layout.

This is actually a pretty big deal... I've used Dvorak, a little bit of Colemak, and a custom layout. I prefer my custom layout because it involves certain finger motions that I find very pleasant, and it's very noticeable. Colemak is very neutral and boring, but good nevertheless.

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QGMLWB by carpalx
« Reply #9 on: Tue, 20 September 2011, 20:13:28 »
Ah, you're the person I was referring to before regarding the HE digraph on Colemak, I remember your avatar. I think I recall there was some keyboard layout testing Java applet you were using to test out your layout? I remember seeing one a long time ago but I can't seem to find it any more. I was curious to try some changes to QG. Would also be interested to see your layout if you're willing to share.
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QGMLWB by carpalx
« Reply #10 on: Tue, 20 September 2011, 21:52:55 »
I really like the "th" position on Dvorak, mainly because it's such a natural motion for me. I wonder if there's a layout specifically for "rolling" of common digraphs? I feel like I'd prefer that no dvorak.

Also, I love the lighter weight MX-browns, but I'm taking a bit to get used to them.

how much would you say they switch type impacts your typing? Just as a layout has a "feel", so do the switches. I wonder if there's a better layout for specific switches, or typing styles.

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QGMLWB by carpalx
« Reply #11 on: Wed, 21 September 2011, 08:58:04 »
Yea, TH is pretty good, but like I was saying, TH is usually followed by a vowel so H-vowel on QG is generally just as good except if the TH is at the end of a word (fourth, fifth, sixth and such come to mind). You might have fun with Colemak, which has some more rolling. I went from Dvorak to Colemak and I sure like it better. I really feel that I would like QG more if the left hand had DNST in that order as I feel that that would help rolling a lot more, but I'm not sure if that would detract from it's efficiency in some way that I can't foresee.

I would imagine that lighter switches are better for rolling motions as the idea of the roll is to have a smooth motion. I suppose that conversely, heavier ones would be better for alternating due to what some people say about heavier switches being more typo friendly as you make fewer accidental presses and if you're hunting for one specific key with your finger as you are alternating that could be useful. I've tried blues and reds and I enjoy the reds for making rolls feel so smooth but at the same time, I do probably make more typos with them and I'm pretty sure that I double tap sometimes with them when I don't mean to.
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Offline Keymonger

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QGMLWB by carpalx
« Reply #12 on: Wed, 21 September 2011, 12:14:27 »
Quote from: oneproduct;419325
Ah, you're the person I was referring to before regarding the HE digraph on Colemak, I remember your avatar. I think I recall there was some keyboard layout testing Java applet you were using to test out your layout? I remember seeing one a long time ago but I can't seem to find it any more. I was curious to try some changes to QG. Would also be interested to see your layout if you're willing to share.

I think it was this: http://patorjk.com/keyboard-layout-analyzer/

I think a lot of analyzing tools aren't good enough and I want to program my own but I'm just beginning programming so it'll take a while.

I'm on qwerty most of the time but here is my touch-type layout

[ Attachment Invalid Or Does Not Exist ] 27015[/ATTACH]

It has some issues but it's mostly good.

Offline insilica

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QGMLWB by carpalx
« Reply #13 on: Thu, 22 September 2011, 08:59:50 »
ok i've just installed in X using gentoo and I like it - so slow, I feel like a turtle atm
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Offline rgomes

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I'm trying QGMLWY
« Reply #14 on: Sun, 02 October 2011, 07:02:27 »
I would prefer QGMLWY for these reasons:

* ZXCV in same positions as QWERTY
* looks just perfect for Latin language speakers.

My native language is Portuguese... and we use vowels a lot, in every syllable you will find at least one vowel. So, QGMLWY puts all common vowels in the home row, not under the pinkies, which is definitely the right thing to do. I never tried Colemak when I saw that A and O are under the pinkies.

I've provided configuration files for Linux which allow Carpalx layouts be selected via keyboard configuration applet.
I've also created a keyboard emulation for the wonderful Miniguru, in case you would like to have arrows as IJKL.

Links: (sorry guys and gals... I'm not allowed to post links)

     host: mkweb.bcgsc.ca path: carpalx/distribution/carpalx-x11.zip

     host: duartes.org  path: gustavo/blog/post/home-row-computing (see post #26)

I hope it helps :)

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QGMLWB by carpalx
« Reply #15 on: Sun, 02 October 2011, 13:12:20 »
rgomes, thanks a bunch! I think I'll try this out, later.

Also, you can try using h**p:URL.TLD for paths, and it usually works, I assume that posting links isn't illegal, here, though if it is, I certainly don't condone it.

Offline Tony

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QGMLWB by carpalx
« Reply #16 on: Sun, 02 October 2011, 21:40:24 »
This layout needs a name. Let's say Carpak instead of QGMLWB.

For more users, this layout needs a Windows install and typing software courses (Typing Faster, for example). And a separate forum for users to discuss their own experience.

Just like Shai Coleman have done for his Colemak layout.
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Offline Tony

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QGMLWB by carpalx
« Reply #17 on: Fri, 21 October 2011, 22:16:19 »
Once you are good with Autohotkey, there is a compiling option that allows you to compile the ahk file to exe file like colemak.exe.

Colemak is popular since there is an active community website where users share experiences and help each other.
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Offline Playtrumpet

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QGMLWB by carpalx
« Reply #18 on: Sat, 22 October 2011, 23:30:30 »
I was reading more about QGMLWB and I'm more and more impressed with the methodology used to determine this layout.

http://mkweb.bcgsc.ca/carpalx/?component_optimization

Basically, it starts with a slightly higher "base" (pure finger distance) than Colemak and a few other layouts, but makes up the most because of it's extremely small "penalty" effort (use of off-home rows and certain fingers (e.g ring and pinky)) and "stroke" effort values (hand and finger alternation, row jumping and finger rolling). I really like how objective Mr. Krzywinski is trying to stay in his interpretations of these variables, as well as his suggestion that one must first choose the variables that THEY want optimized in a layout.

QGMLWB offers a great compromise and optimization for stroke and penalty and still maintains a low base. I'm curious to see the program run with different interpretations of what truly makes up the "penalty" data which is by far the most flexible of the data. Base is the most solid since finger distance is pretty easy to measure accurately. Stroke is more flexible and could be up for more interpretation as rolling/vs alteration is usually a personal preference thing, but again, he's made a good call in coming to a midway compromise for that.

I kinda wanna try out this layout now.. Though I just became proficient in Dvorak. I probably won't make another switch anytime soon. =\
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Offline Tony

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QGMLWB by carpalx
« Reply #19 on: Sun, 23 October 2011, 04:31:48 »
Agreed. The switching experience is hellishly difficult for the first three weeks so unless you are from Qwerty, changing from Dvorak/Colemak to another layout is not worth 1-2% overall efficiency.

Of course, other people can be more experimenting and have lots of time to switch to another layout just for fun.
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Offline xorxpto

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QGMLWB by carpalx
« Reply #20 on: Sun, 20 November 2011, 17:48:05 »
Quote from: dante;436330
I'd be more inclined to try one of the carpalx layouts if there was a simple .exe to run like Colemak.

i'd say between the three carpalx and colemak layouts I'd prefer carpalx as there is more alternating hands.


With “Microsoft Keyboard Layout Creator” you can compile the .klc files found at the carpalx site (http://mkweb.bcgsc.ca/carpalx/distribution/carpalx-pkl-layouts-0.02.zip) and generate the installation files.
« Last Edit: Mon, 21 November 2011, 09:40:48 by xorxpto »

Offline Tony

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QGMLWB by carpalx
« Reply #21 on: Sun, 20 November 2011, 21:03:02 »
Hopefully someone with Autohotkey proficiency will produce a portable QGMLWY and other Carpalx .exe soon.
Keyboard: Filco MJ1 104 brown, Filco MJ2 87 brown, Compaq MX11800, Noppoo Choc Brown/Blue/Red, IBM Model M 1996, CMStorm Quickfire Rapid Black
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Offline xorxpto

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QGMLWB by carpalx
« Reply #22 on: Mon, 21 November 2011, 04:13:44 »
Quote from: Tony;456458
Hopefully someone with Autohotkey proficiency will produce a portable QGMLWY and other Carpalx .exe soon.


Something like this?: h**p://dl.dropbox.com/u/49319255/AutoHotKey/QGMLWY.zip

I made this one to use at work.
I carry it in a usb pen, so I can use QGMLWY on computers that don't belong to me.

Offline funkymeeba

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QGMLWB by carpalx
« Reply #23 on: Sun, 27 November 2011, 22:46:57 »
I have literally never used anything other than qwerty, but I'm going to give this a shot. Got it all set up with Funtoo, now I just need to learn it. So things strike me immediately as being very nice. We'll see how this goes.

UPDATE: My head is in several knots with this right now, but progress is being made, and I am finding it not horribly difficult.
« Last Edit: Sun, 27 November 2011, 23:29:29 by funkymeeba »
Quote
17:15 < vun> these are the healthiest crisps I've ever come across
17:16 < vun> mostly because I can't get the bag open

meebcats - my bad music

Offline Tony

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QGMLWB by carpalx
« Reply #24 on: Mon, 28 November 2011, 02:29:48 »
Oh, the switching experience is hellish to everyone so be patient. Your head will feel like exploding, your fingers will feel confused, but outwardly there's no physical evidence except high error rate.

This is an optimal layout so the more you use it, the more you realize Qwerty is not good. Try to go at least three weeks typing on it, you will be richly rewarded.

The switching experience is quite the same for any layout. You can read my Colemak switching experience for encouragement and fun.
« Last Edit: Mon, 28 November 2011, 02:40:38 by Tony »
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Offline funkymeeba

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QGMLWB by carpalx
« Reply #25 on: Mon, 28 November 2011, 08:42:08 »
The layout has been simple. I am already able to do it sans-reference, but I am still quite slow. It might be a bit before I'm back to 90+ wpm.
Quote
17:15 < vun> these are the healthiest crisps I've ever come across
17:16 < vun> mostly because I can't get the bag open

meebcats - my bad music

Offline 7bit

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QGMLWB by carpalx
« Reply #26 on: Mon, 28 November 2011, 08:56:57 »
Pah!

This layout is for wimps!

Real men use Bépo:

Buy key caps here: Round 5
Buy switches here: CherryMX

Offline Martin227

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QGMLWB by carpalx
« Reply #27 on: Tue, 20 December 2011, 14:23:28 »
The CarpalX guy keeps a "Colemak letter mask" which I frankly don't understand at all. You're already changing the layout, what harm is there in moving the punctuation symbols around if that would maximise your efficiency?

That and this guy puts too much emphasis on the math without seemingly evaluating the layouts from a human perspective also, in order look for flaws. Read about the MTGAP guy and his New Keyboard Layout Project. He made a layout generator of his own inspired by Klausler's and Capewell's. You find it at the Mathematical Multicore blog (I'm unable to link – new account restrictions?). I've read all the posts from beginning and he brings up a lot of good points nobody else seems to have, so his machinations are a lot more convincing than CarpalX.
« Last Edit: Tue, 20 December 2011, 14:31:59 by Martin227 »
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QGMLWB by carpalx
« Reply #28 on: Tue, 20 December 2011, 21:36:13 »
martin227, is this the link:
http://mathematicalmulticore.wordpress.com/2010/06/21/mtgaps-keyboard-layout-2-0/

Looks interesting: I agree with the logic of moving the modifiers, and other keys (as a Dvorak user, I must be) I feel like most of these layouts are just missing "something" that they would be great with otherwise.

For example, when I switched from QWERTY, I chose Dvorak over Colemak for a number of reasons. One of them was Colemak keeping the ZXCV placement. While I can't fault the logic of keeping them there, and also agree that there's not too much of a performance reason to move them, It's the principle of the thing that kept me from it.

I really prefer Dvorak's layout of the /=\ keys being all in a row. I'll look into the MTGAP guy's layout. Thanks for the good information!
---
Edit: I'm pretty interested about the below layout:
http://mathematicalmulticore.wordpress.com/2011/01/16/fully-optimized-standard-keyboard/

Code: [Select]
= 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 q z
y p o u - k d l c w x / j
i n e a , m h t s r &quot;
( ) ; . _ v f g b '
« Last Edit: Tue, 20 December 2011, 21:48:19 by dorkvader »

Offline Martin227

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QGMLWB by carpalx
« Reply #29 on: Wed, 21 December 2011, 04:54:20 »
That last link is indeed his latest work. It's pretty interesting to note the differences in finger usage to Colemak (note that this is the Kinesis-adapted variety):


MTGAP Full 0.1

Hands: 52% 47%
Fingers: 9% 10% 18% 13% 13% 14% 10% 9%

Code: [Select]
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 q
y c o u ( ) l d p w x
i s e a , m h t n r k
_ v &quot; . ; ' f g b -
/ =             z j



Colemak

Hands: 46% 53%
Fingers: 8% 8% 11% 18% 18% 15% 10% 9%

Code: [Select]
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 -
q w f p g j l u y ; =
a r s t d h n e i o '
z x c v b k m , . /
_ "             ( )



Less index-finger strain, more emphasis on the middle-finger.

The middle-finger gets too little credit by most layout designers. Considering that this finger also has an easy time jumping one key up in rapid succession – almost as though riding on the momentum of the previous keypress – and owing to its length, the key above the middle-finger home-key has been called essentially another home-key, which this layout recognises. It's a pity it doesn't look quite the same on both sides of the keyboard.


I also like how it's almost completely unrecognisable from QWERTY, like Dvorak, should help prevent confusing the layouts with each other. Only S is on the same location, and H as well as P are just next to their QWERTY position. That's an even better dissonance than Dvorak.
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