Filco Stabilizer question

[Largest Person]

I have noticed on my filco brown tenkeyless that on some of the longer keys there is a rattling noise. For example if i lightly touch the space bar on the far left without compressing the key at all there is no rattle sound and it is completely solid, but if i do the same on the left side it makes this rattle sound which when striking it fully while typing makes this undersirable clicky sound. Is this normal? It is also present on some of the more longer keys but is less promiment but instead on for say for the backspace key the left side of the switch is the side that rattles.

[alaricljs]

Mine doesn't do that.  You might want to check that the studs that are pressed into the keycaps and hold the stabilizer wire are fully seated into the keycap.

[Slowhand]

My Majestouch 2 has a rattle on the right side of my spacebar too.

[Largest Person]

good im not just crazy lol

[daerid]

Please check the wiki. You can learn a lot!

Filco keyboards use Costar style stabilizers. This means that the space bar, both shift keys, enter, backspace, and the 3 larger keys on the numpad (if present) all have metal bars that run from end to end. These are hooked into small plastic inserts that are attached to the keycap on one side, and the base of the keyboard on the other. What they do is distribute the force evenly across the key cap in the event that only one side is pressed down.

What you are hearing is those little wires rattling back and forth, since they need freedom to move as the key is depressed. Every cherry board with Costar-style stabilizers exhibits this behavior (that means Filco, Das Keyboard, Rosewill, WASDKeyboards, PLU, etc...). It's an easy fix, if the noise bothers you that much, involving pulling the offending key and lubricating the inserts.

More details here.

[Largest Person]

i knew that but i just found it weird that one side was rattling and the other wasnt

[squarebox]

It's normal.

[Tony]

My Filco brown has some noise like that, but I have bought a headphone.

[pitashen]

another paranoia post.

[Largest Person]

another paranoia post.

yes but this is my first mechanical keyboard and I was concerned lol, I thought the keys were supposed to be completely solid so I just wanted to make sure.

[alaricljs]

The McGurk effect is a perceptual phenomenon which demonstrates an interaction between hearing and vision in speech perception.

Hmm, don't see how that applies to keyboards in any way whatsoever.

[alaricljs]

McGurk is a specific perceptual phenomenon.  If you want to say that most of the complaints are due to perceptual phenomena say so, don't just spout 'McGurk' at people.  It's part of the perception of you as a troll.  You insist how you're such an expert and then you say things that are clearly wrong.

[daerid]

I have consistently heard spring resonance noise from a variety of mechanical keyboards. My Unicomp did it, all my Filcos have it to a greater or lesser degree, my Pokers had it, the PLU has it, even the Dell AT101w has it.

It's a result of having springs in your keyboard. They vibrate, and vibrating things tend to make noises. It's physics. Deal with it.

[arplod]

[Post-purchase rationalization]

A lot of it about.

OP: If we're talking about the minute rattle that I can get by very gently tapping one side of the space bar on some of my Filco's...

... 'anal' much? It's a key. It moves. Jeez.

[HeavyArms]

My Majestouch 2 has a rattle on the right side of my spacebar too.

Mine too.

[c0rbin]

I have a different take on this... I don't think its just a problem with Costar stabilizers and Cherry switches, but rather more a problem of shoddiness from Filco and the lesser Chinese manufacturers. Seems like Filco's actually have a lot of small problems.

I'm not so sure their reputation for high build quality is exactly deserved. Lets be honest here - they are mass produced in China (or is it Taiwan?) and the quality of construction doesn't seem to be very consistent. I have tried only Filco and WASD boards and to me the WASD was more solid and had less tiny movements in the keys than the Filco. It also produced a more deadened "thud" rather than the hollow ringing of the Filco. WASD's also have a thicker case and pre-greased stabilizers. I think there's a new top dog in town if you want top of the range for Cherry MX switches, I just wish WASD sold a Tenkeyless version. Other people who have tried both WASD and other boards can attest to the fact that the WASD's are a cut above.

When it comes to Cherry MX switches, most people have only tried boards like Das, Leopold, Ducky, Filco, Rosewill, which are all virtually identical in terms of build quality. Yes, the Filco and I believe the Rosewill have plate mounted switches, but they are all mass produced with about the same build quality. To me, a WASD feels like a small step up from these keyboards.

The spacebar really shouldn't be moving on a $150 keyboard. The keypresses should all feel and sound uniform. There should be no resonance or ping. WASD has none of these problems.

At least Filco looks cool?

EDIT: I've done some further reading and it appears that the internals on a WASD are from the same OEM as those on a Filco. The difference in feel is explained not by the internals, but by the quality control measures at the WASD factory for each and every keyboard. Springs are perfectly adjusted, stabilizers are pre-greased, everything is measured, etc. The case material is also thicker. These things all contribute to the more deadened feel of the WASD. By contrast, the Filco doesn't seem to have any of these attention to details and I get the impression that they are simply produced as quickly as possible with lax quality control.

I'm sure a lot of us are quite particular about having the best-built keyboard. That's why Filco's are so popular. We just need to realize that WASD has taken the extra step and deserve to be recognized as basically between Filco and Realforce in terms of quality if we want to be responsible, fully informed consumers. The tendency of Filco owners (I am one) is to explain away the problems with their board... this is understandable because they don't want to believe that they spent top dollar but didn't get a top product. I think this effect is more pronounced on this forum than on a forum about, say, cars, since the people here seem more perfectionist and invested in their hobby. It should be common knowledge here that the 104-key keyboard to get for blue, brown, or black Cherry MX switches is a WASD.

[Largest Person]

If I was interested in the future, would i be able to fix the keyboard and make all the longer keys fully stable?

[duncan]

If I was interested in the future, would i be able to fix the keyboard and make all the longer keys fully stable?

What are you trying to ask here?

You have already read the wiki and searched GH I assume?

So you know about lubing and the o-ring mod and landing pad mod and dental bands and dental floss and how to ensure the stabiliser is correctly seated and how to get stabilised keys off and onto the board by now?

Are you asking for something different to those possibilities?

If you haven't read up on them then do have a look at the search bar and see if answer of these are things you are interested in playing with.

[Largest Person]

Well I'm not sure if lubing up the stabilizer would fix my problem because its not really a squeak thats the problem its just the side of the keycap that is rattling. and as for o-rings, I don't have a problem with bottoming out. And I saw the videos for taking off stabilized keycaps but according to some users in this thread, it is aparently normal for Filco's to have this sort of problem so I am going to assume that it's properly seated, so I'm assuming theres no real solution? I'm also a really big nub and probably would break something if I were to actually make sure so I'll just assume lol.

[duncan]

The o-rings and the lubing and the like do more than just their primary role. A fraction more weight in the key or the removal of a bit of friction can have all sorts of interesting effects on key feel and noise. And they all have good effects in other regards even if not addressing the issue of the moment.

At the end of the day these are a bunch of plastic keys balanced semi-pecariously on other bits of plastic, springs, wires and other bits and pieces. They will never be silent nor maintain perfect alignment at all times. Without being in the room with you it is hard to know if their is anything to be "solved" at all. Maybe there is a problem, maybe it's just the fact that this is, after all, a keyboard.

If it really annoys you then you are going to have to pull keys as a very minimum so if you are too scared to even do that (and that's a fine position, there is a tiny chance you could make things worse, that chance grows substantially if you don't have a decent key puller and/or don't go about things in a very careful manner after very careful research) then there is not much to be done here right now.

Type away for a few hours every day for two weeks and see how things are looking / sounding / feeling then.

Good luck.

[TheProfosist]

how about try lubing it and see what happens its not all that hard... You could also check if the stabilizer inset is loose. There many possibliities, take it apart and check!

[enoy21]

The McGurk effect is a perceptual phenomenon which demonstrates an interaction between hearing and vision in speech perception.

Hmm, don't see how that applies to keyboards in any way whatsoever.

I think the principle can be applied to any cross perception changes...  For instance I suggest that the McGurk effect works with keyboards in a touch to hearing cross.  

My browns sound more solid than my blues. There for because of the sound change, my browns FEEL more solid to the touch because they lack the high pitched plastic click(cheap thin plastic sound) of blues.  While I'm not confirming every reference Rip uses the effect on , I do agree that it applies to keyboards at times.

For this reason I am anxious for WASD to release their RED switches so that I might buy one for work to replace the blues.

[alaricljs]

I think the principle can be applied to any cross perception changes...  For instance I suggest that the McGurk effect works with keyboards in a touch to hearing cross.

But again, the McGurk effect doesn't apply at all because it's about 'hearing and vision in speech perception'  It has nothing to do with tactile perception or any auditory perception that has nothing to do with speech.  It's a scientific principle and the more science is abused the dumber people become because instead of expressing a situation as what it is they start expressing things in vague misleading ways.  When I want to talk about centripetal force I don't call it the coriolis effect.

The whole point of communicating anything at all is to be understood.  Perhaps it's worth making the effort up front to be understood?

[enoy21]

So is there a more general cross sensory perception effect that is not so specific to sight and sound ?   Just curious as perhaps that would be a better effect to compare to for me as I tend to look at the principles of something rather than the specifics of it's application.  

As in, the principle can be applied to various forms of sensory input and how one source of input can overrule and change the perception of the other.

[alaricljs]

Perceptual disconnect - where what you perceive is not what is really there.

[enoy21]

Ok so that is the more general and encompassing phenomenon to the McGurk effect which can be applied to keyboards for sound/feel visual effects.