ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.

[dorkvader]

I'll put you on the list, fim.

Actually, if it's only a couple, and no-one else wants to do it, I'd be willing to solder people's together and quickly test them for just the cost of shipping if need be. I like through-hole soldering.

[obra]

I'd love one. Having a trackpoint would be amazing.
I'd be willing to pay more for it to be fully assembled -- I know how not-handy I am with a soldering iron.

[dorkvader]

I'll add you, obra.

I may do a soldering service, unless someone else wants to cover that. Either way, I'm adding a section for people interested in receiving a fully assembled product.

[Pyrolistical]

First of all put me down for one with Cherry MX Blues

But I have a few suggestions:

1. Make the keys a true matrix layout.  You have lined up the keys vertically, but not horizontally.  Kensis/TypeMatrix is a true matrix keyboard.  By doing this you'll also be able to save cost as the casting would be smaller.
2. Move the 6 key back to the right side.  All the good split mechanical keyboards have the 6 on the right side.  Pushing the +/= key to the double size one is fine.
3. Use Kensis' layout of splitting the up/down left/right keys is probably the best thing to do.  This way you can keep the {[]} keys together on the right side like Kensis
4. Investigate how much would it cost to also have anodized aluminium keycaps  This way you can making it a selling feature that the entire keyboard is aluminium

[laffindude]

It is more ergonomic to have this layout since this board won't have the curvature of Kenesis. It'll be CNC machined, so you're paying for the billet anyways.
6 key... already explained many times in the thread.
Anodized aluminum caps will cost more than the keyboard.

[Dox]

First of all put me down for one with Cherry MX Blues

But I have a few suggestions:

1. Make the keys a true matrix layout.  You have lined up the keys vertically, but not horizontally.  Kensis/TypeMatrix is a true matrix keyboard.  By doing this you'll also be able to save cost as the casting would be smaller.
2. Move the 6 key back to the right side.  All the good split mechanical keyboards have the 6 on the right side.  Pushing the +/= key to the double size one is fine.
3. Use Kensis' layout of splitting the up/down left/right keys is probably the best thing to do.  This way you can keep the {[]} keys together on the right side like Kensis
4. Investigate how much would it cost to also have anodized aluminium keycaps  This way you can making it a selling feature that the entire keyboard is aluminium

That one made me laugh this morning. You are ready to sacrifice an ergonomic aspect of the keyboard to save a few bucks but you are interested in cold feeling aluminum keycaps that would increase the cost A LOT.

THE LAYOUT PRESENTED IS NOT FINAL. THE CONTROLLER WILL BE PROGRAMMABLE.
(I hope this one will be clear enough)

[Pyrolistical]

Its more ergonomic according to who?  If you are going to make a claim like that do you have a study to back up a vertically staggered layout is more ergonomic than a true matrix?

[dorkvader]

Right, so clearly any claims about a keyboard that doesn't yet exist are purely theoretical anyway.

So the theory goes with this 'board, is that -like the kinesis- it's not staggered vertically, so your fingers will only have to move up and down between rows (not the little bit side to side they do now). The reason they're not completely symmetrical vertically is to accommodate for the greater length of the middle fingers: that way you'll be able to type with them all at the same extension/inclination. A "normal" matrix 'board wouldn't allow you to do this.

Now in practice: we won't really know until the keyboards are done, and even then we wouldn't know unless they got tested professionally, but that's how the theory goes.

So: it's based on the fact that your fingers aren't all the same length vertically: it's meant to match up to your fingers, and as a result isn't "true matrix". If you don't have to move your fingers as much, or contort them very much to type, then it should be more ergonomic.

I'd also argue that the kinesis isn't "true matrix" either, but I don't have one, and it's beside the point and "splitting hairs", but it's my opinion that this keyboard and the kinesis should be ergonomically superior to a "normal" matrix keyboard.

[Findecanor]

So the theory goes with this 'board, is that -like the kinesis- it's not staggered vertically, so your fingers will only have to move up and down between rows (not the little bit side to side they do now).

I would say that the Kinesis Contoured is vertically staggered. Counting only on the home row, the offsets between index, middle and ring finger is very small, but the offset from the ring finger column to the little finger column is about 40% -- about as much as on flat vertically staggered keyboards.

[Pyrolistical]

I stand corrected on the Kinesis.  It is not a true matrix.  The only one currently in production seems to be TypeMatrix.  You cannot compare the Kinesis to this keyboard.  This keyboard is flat while the Kinesis has key wells.  That might explain why Kinesis did not do a true matrix.

[dorkvader]

I would say that the Kinesis Contoured is vertically staggered. Counting only on the home row, the offsets between index, middle and ring finger is very small, but the offset from the ring finger column to the little finger column is about 40% -- about as much as on flat vertically staggered keyboards.

(courtesy of ergo canada)
It doesn't really look that way to me from the pictures, but I trust another user's first-hand testimony, especially when I still haven't seen one firsthand.

I stand corrected on the Kinesis.  It is not a true matrix.  The only one currently in production seems to be TypeMatrix.  You cannot compare the Kinesis to this keyboard.  This keyboard is flat while the Kinesis has key wells.  That might explain why Kinesis did not do a true matrix.

Firstly: don't lose heart! There are lots of POS boards (from Access-is, tipro, and cherry) that are "true-matrix" that you may be interested in. Typematrix isn't the only one.
Second: I can indeed compare the two. You raise a good point: the keyboards are different. Still, from what I can see, the Kinesis strives to take into account finger motion, and relative finger length by using keywells and a stagger situated to each finger. While we can contrast these keyboards in the keywell area, we can compare them in many other ways.

In fact, now that I think of it, a large breadth of comparisons can be made.
both are keyboards
both will be programmible
both use cherry MX keyswitches
both use USB cables (is this true for the modern kinesis?)
both are designed for ergonomics to some degree

There are some important contrasts you bright up:
the kinesis has keywells, this is "flat"
the kinesis isn't splittable, this is split.

While these clearly are differences, they do not solely define a keyboard. All similarities can be compared. If there were no contrasting remarks to be made, then it would follow that the two are indistinguishable.

Like I said: I feel that the kinesis doesn't have a "true matrix" (good thing) because it tries to take into account the relative finger lengths. This one does, too (to some extent). Now, I haven't greatly studied ergonomics, but I feel like I'm at least on the right track here.

Edit: cherry G80-1950
http://geekhack.org/showthread.php?23642-eBay-US-Cherry-G80-1950-%28matrix-layout%29
http://www.ebay.com/itm/G80-1950PQAXB-CHERRY-COMPACT-MATRIX-KEYBOARD-BEIGE-/180679116605?pt=PCA_Mice_Trackballs&hash=item2a1150873d
5 left at $79/each

[sordna]

both use USB cables (is this true for the modern kinesis?)

Of course, all Kinesis Advantage models are USB and even have an integrated USB hub for hooking up 2 more devices.

Like I said: I feel that the kinesis doesn't have a "true matrix" (good thing) because it tries to take into account the relative finger lengths. This one does, too (to some extent). Now, I haven't greatly studied ergonomics, but I feel like I'm at least on the right track here.

Yes, you are! But we need to be careful not to overdo it with the "wave" pattern. Subtle is key. Even on the Kinesis I'm not a huge fan of the keywells being so curved/deep, I would prefer them to be a little flatter actually.

[bonega]

Interested, but need:
Soldering and shipping to Sweden.

300-

[iWuzHere]

Due to unfavourable financial circumstances, if this does not come to somewhere around $150-200, im afraid i cant really be part of it.

[inaneframe]

Dox, I think you should make it exactly how you have in mind.  You have my 3 orders and all the other guys.  I think that any suggestions such as drastic adjustments to key arrangement should just be ignored outright.  I love how people come in and try to piss on the project and mark their territory after people have already shown interest in it as is and before it even gets off the ground.

I can imagine the Wright Brothers almost having enough funds to get their plane built and some jagoff steps in and is all like "hey, ya' know I might possibly consider putting in a couple bucks but I think the wings should be straighter since it would save money."  You respond, "well the wings are not perfectly straight for a reason, they have a bump in them, otherwise it wouldn't fly as well."  Then him, "do you have any proof that the wings aren't better off perfectly straight, huh?  Mr. Wright?  Huh?"

ANNOYING.

[Dox]

Thanks inaneframe, I'm starting to think that I should do it like I did for my doxkb. Build one for myself to test the concept and design and give my drawings to those who want to build some. That way, they would have the possibility to tweak the design to their needs or try to organize a group buy to lower the cost. I really don't have the time to manage a group buy and I want to get it done.

In the last 2 days, I tried to design a new case that would cost a lot less than the original I couldn't even afford one with the quote that I got. I'll post some pics soon.

[dorkvader]

Interested, but need:
Soldering and shipping to Sweden.

300-

I'll add you

Due to unfavourable financial circumstances, if this does not come to somewhere around $150-200, im afraid i cant really be part of it.

I'll update.

Cool, thanks DOX. One difference here is that it'd likely cost a lot less for 30 cases to be made than a one-off for you. I suspect it's a little more reasonable for people to print up PCB's for the Doxkb, and come up with a plate than it would be for this project. Ultimately, it's up to you, though.

Have you considered getting someone else to handle distribution, etc of this GB (and just have you do the designwork)?

I'll look forward to new pictures. Hopefully we can get this down to a price everyone can afford.

[sordna]

If it helps, I don't care at all for an aluminum case. The main thing about this keyboard is the split and the ergonomics, not the case material. Plastic is fine by me. I don't even care about the color.

[Input Nirvana]

If it helps, I don't care at all for an aluminum case. The main thing about this keyboard is the split and the ergonomics, not the case material. Plastic is fine by me. I don't even care about the color.

You are such a non-elitest. I don't know if I can be seen around with you.

[slueth]

cool dox hope to see this go forward.

[inaneframe]

I was non-elitist before it was cool.

[Human]

Better made it 2 seperated boards(left hand and right hand), LOL...

[Dox]

Ok, here is the new case. There is still no trackpoint.
[ Attachment Invalid Or Does Not Exist ] 36215[/ATTACH] [ Attachment Invalid Or Does Not Exist ] 36214[/ATTACH]

2 set of 11 plates (including the mounting plate) per hand. The plates are symmetric for the second hand. I still need to do something to give it some angle/mounting option.

To give you an idea, for 10 set of 11 plates (5 keyboards) not anodized, the cost would be around 110$ per hand (plates only).

[litster]

Looks nice!  Should be pretty hefty in weight, which is good  What parts are you using for screws?

[Dox]

Thanks lister, I got to say that I took a bit of inspiration from your cases.
I will use some M3X12 countersunk cap screw like these.
[ Attachment Invalid Or Does Not Exist ] 36238[/ATTACH]

[mharrison]

Not to rain on anyone's parade or efforts, but... add me as another for whom the aluminum case is the least interesting aspect of this keyboard. If I have to pay $400, more than half of that is for the case. I'd much rather pay $150-$250 with a wood or plastic case.

[Dox]

Just to clear a misconception about the case material. The same layered case in acrylic would cost around 20$ more by hand than the current aluminium one.
It's not the material that is expensive, it's the time to machine/cut the plates that is the main part of the cost.

If I was building hundreds or thousands of keyboards, I would get some injection moulds and a plastic case but for the low quantity, there is no magical trick around the cost.

The case will cost more than half of the keyboard no matter the material. Nothing prevents you from designing your own keyboard if you think you can do this for 150$ (this is what I thought before I did my doxkb witch cost me around 400 each).

[hoggy]

I think the effort on the case is worth while.  I hired a maltron a few years back.  The reactions people had went from positive (or weird) changed instantly to cheap rubbish if they picked it up.  Everyone who felt the weight assumed that if it's lightweight, then it's cheap and tat (as the maltron is much, much lighter than it looks).  

If there's a choice between materials that cost roughly the same, I'd recommend the heavier option.

I do have a weight limit on my keyboard shelf of 1.4kg...

[mharrison]

Just to clear a misconception about the case material. The same layered case in acrylic would cost around 20$ more by hand than the current aluminium one.
It's not the material that is expensive, it's the time to machine/cut the plates that is the main part of the cost.

Thank you for clearing up where the cost comes from. I wasn't implying that I could do better, I was assuming the cost was due to the aluminum.

[litster]

Dox is correct.  Material is cheap.  Cut time and design and the test runs to find problems of the design is the most expensive.

Dox, besides screws, what nuts are you using?  Thanks.