Author Topic: ErgoDox - Custom split ergo keyboard.  (Read 92672 times)

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Online sherryton

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[Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
« Reply #570 on: Fri, 27 April 2012, 15:09:48 »
Interested.  Please put me down dork!

Offline ic07

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[Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
« Reply #571 on: Fri, 27 April 2012, 15:56:44 »
Quote from: boli;583673
What do you think about the Kinesis way?


I think it's good, within the limitations you mentioned.  Additionally, you cannot save or reload previous maps that you've made, so to me it'd seem that it was only good for quick remaps involving just a few keys.  Also, as you mentioned, the "source" character is always from the default unremapped keyboard - but with a DIY project there is no One True Default keyboard, as there is with a commercial product.  Actually, if things work out, there will be Three True Defaults, lol, along with the option to roll your own, which I was thinking would be rather confusing (and the Kinesis method of making everyone use the default QWERTY map to remap, even if their keycaps are Dvorak, seems unreasonable to me).  So that would increase the documentation burden a bit - and the burden on the keymap designers.

Still, you're making me reconsider...  Are quick, small remaps common enough for it to be worth it?  Or, are Make and the avr-gcc toolchain (even with a nice howto written up) user unfriendly enough that the limitations of the Kinesis method are worth it for larger remaps?  I tend to forget that not everyone's perfectly at home with a terminal and a text editor, so I'm probably in need of some perspective here.

Quote from: boli;583673
[...] you always move all characters from a key, that is unshifted and shifted. [...]


In Kinesis defense, this is a (slightly annoying) consequence of how keyboards are designed.  That is, keys and shifted keys have the same keycode, and the host is responsible for registering different characters based on the presence of modifiers (which are either present for all the keys pressed, or none of them), so there's nothing the keyboard can do.  If you really wanted to move symbols around separately, it might be possible to implement shift as a layer key and use the standalone keycodes for symbols... but that'd be changing the meaning of things.

Which brings up another limitation of the Kinesis method: keycodes not present in the default layout aren't available at all.

Quote from: boli;583673
Personally I like this approach a lot, it's very easy and requires no software. No matter which OS I boot into, I always have the layout I want.


For what it's worth, modding the keymap in the firmware source would be OS independent too - and the software required already works (with slightly different interfaces) on every major OS.

Offline ic07

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[Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
« Reply #572 on: Fri, 27 April 2012, 20:05:30 »
Quote from: hoggy;583634
Would the controller be able to handle mouse movements?

Quote from: ic07;583669
[...] it's not possible in the firmware right now, but I think PJRC has some code that would work, so hopefully it won't be way too hard.  [...]


Spoke too soon :/ .  The PJRC keyboard and mouse code doesn't quite work together, so I have to go learn about device side USB before I can implement it, which might take a while.  Or I could use LUFA, but that looks just as hard.  Can't say when (or promise if) I'll have it done, but I'll work on it.  Sorry about that.

Offline alaricljs

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[Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
« Reply #573 on: Fri, 27 April 2012, 20:10:53 »
There are other KB firmwares for the Teensy scattered about here, hasu has one w/ mousekeys.  You might learn from those.
Filco w/ Imsto thick PBT
Ducky 1087XM PCB+Plate, w/ Matias "Quiet Click" spring-swapped w/ XM Greens

Offline suka

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[Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
« Reply #574 on: Sat, 28 April 2012, 02:19:40 »
Give LUFA a try: it comes with several examples using both mouse and keyboard that serve as a good starting point.

Offline dorkvader

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[Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
« Reply #575 on: Sun, 29 April 2012, 01:00:25 »
Quote from: sherryton;584107
Interested.  Please put me down dork!
Updated the list!

All this talk of programming: I'm personally not that excited about it, especially given how easy it should be to program a new layout on these things. It might be a handy thing to have, but ultimately, I'd rather get the work done on that when we're waiting for them to ship. Same with full NKRO. It'd be amazing, but it's a "want" not a needed feature, and I feel it should be implemented once we are assured of the production and all critical features are taken care of.
| Unicomp (BS) | WASD V1 (Brown) | CMstorm QF Rapid (Red) | Olivetti (RD) | WYSE 50 (Black) | WYSE 30 (Black) | Two * Access-IS 6x12 (Black) | Cherry G84-4101 SPAUS (ML) | WYSE PCE 840358 (Black) | IBM 6110668 31 JAN '84 | CMstorm QF Rapid (Blue) | NIB Cherry G80-8113 (Browns) | IBM Model F XT | 2* TG3 BL82 (Black) | Siig Minitouch (Monterey) | Cherry G80-8113 (browns) | CMstorm QF Rapid (Blue) | | CMstorm QF Rapid (Green)

Offline ironman31

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[Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
« Reply #576 on: Sun, 29 April 2012, 08:04:21 »
Agreed
Keyboards:
IBM Model M Space Saving Keyboard (Used), HHKB Pro 2 (White, Lettered), Realforce 87U all-45g in White, Filco Majestouch 2 TKL with Cherry MX Browns, Model F PC/ATNoppoo Choc Mini (MX Browns), Model F XT, IBM Model M 1397735 (bought NIB), (2) Siig Minitouch (GHSS) one with XM, one with complicated ALPs (modded),2 Dell AT101W, Cherry G80-11900HRMUS (modded with MX browns)



Pointing Devices:
Logitech G500, Evoluent VerticalMouse 3, Logitech G5, CST 2545W, Microsoft IntelliMouse Trackball, Logitech M570, Logitech MX revolution


fossala

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[Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
« Reply #577 on: Sun, 29 April 2012, 08:08:25 »
Is this still aiming at $400. What is included?

Offline dorkvader

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[Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
« Reply #578 on: Sun, 29 April 2012, 14:19:31 »
Fossala: We're still trying to price things out. The last price update I remember was in december 2011:

Quote from: Dox;479955
Ok, here is the new case. There is still no trackpoint.
(Attachment Link) 36215[/ATTACH] (Attachment Link) 36214[/ATTACH]

2 set of 11 plates (including the mounting plate) per hand. The plates are symmetric for the second hand. I still need to do something to give it some angle/mounting option.

To give you an idea, for 10 set of 11 plates (5 keyboards) not anodized, the cost would be around 110$ per hand (plates only).

Now, I imagine the cost will be somewhat lower, as the quantity will likely be an order of magnitude higher. From what I've read on machine shop prices, it might not be that much lower, though.

So if the case is $200 total, the PCB will likely come in under $100. Switches are ~$0.8*76=$60 (unless you're harvesting them from somewhere, or already bought them from 7bit), teensy is ~$18 (I think?). I don't know what the connecting cable, connectors and that signalling chip is, but I feel like it's under $30 all told.

So all in all, maybe about $400 without keycaps.

The best savings will be in the PCB. Lots of PCB fabs will get you a much better deal in quantities of 50+, which we should have. No idea about getting the case cheaper, though.
| Unicomp (BS) | WASD V1 (Brown) | CMstorm QF Rapid (Red) | Olivetti (RD) | WYSE 50 (Black) | WYSE 30 (Black) | Two * Access-IS 6x12 (Black) | Cherry G84-4101 SPAUS (ML) | WYSE PCE 840358 (Black) | IBM 6110668 31 JAN '84 | CMstorm QF Rapid (Blue) | NIB Cherry G80-8113 (Browns) | IBM Model F XT | 2* TG3 BL82 (Black) | Siig Minitouch (Monterey) | Cherry G80-8113 (browns) | CMstorm QF Rapid (Blue) | | CMstorm QF Rapid (Green)

Offline ironman31

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[Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
« Reply #579 on: Sun, 29 April 2012, 18:34:10 »
sounds good.
Keyboards:
IBM Model M Space Saving Keyboard (Used), HHKB Pro 2 (White, Lettered), Realforce 87U all-45g in White, Filco Majestouch 2 TKL with Cherry MX Browns, Model F PC/ATNoppoo Choc Mini (MX Browns), Model F XT, IBM Model M 1397735 (bought NIB), (2) Siig Minitouch (GHSS) one with XM, one with complicated ALPs (modded),2 Dell AT101W, Cherry G80-11900HRMUS (modded with MX browns)



Pointing Devices:
Logitech G500, Evoluent VerticalMouse 3, Logitech G5, CST 2545W, Microsoft IntelliMouse Trackball, Logitech M570, Logitech MX revolution


Online Autolyze

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[Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
« Reply #580 on: Sun, 29 April 2012, 18:51:47 »
I'm interested in one of these! I should have a bit of keyboard soldering experience under my belt by the time this gets produced.
Das MX Brown | Filco Tenkeyless MX Brown | Leopold Tenkeyless MX Blue | Realforce 87UB 45g | Leopold Tenkeyless MX Red | Leopold Tenkeyless MX Clear | IBM SSK Grey Label | KBC Poker X MX Black/Red | Realforce 87UW 55g | Siig MiniTouch White XM | Honeywell Keypad Hall Effect | Ducky 1087 Green XM | KBC Poker X MX Ghetto Green/Blue | Siig MiniTouch Monterey Blue| IBM SSK Grey Label #2 | Cherry G80-2551 MX Black

Offline OrangeJewce

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[Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
« Reply #581 on: Sun, 29 April 2012, 23:23:36 »
Quote from: dorkvader;585702
Fossala: We're still trying to price things out. The last price update I remember was in december 2011:



Now, I imagine the cost will be somewhat lower, as the quantity will likely be an order of magnitude higher. From what I've read on machine shop prices, it might not be that much lower, though.

So if the case is $200 total, the PCB will likely come in under $100. Switches are ~$0.8*76=$60 (unless you're harvesting them from somewhere, or already bought them from 7bit), teensy is ~$18 (I think?). I don't know what the connecting cable, connectors and that signalling chip is, but I feel like it's under $30 all told.

So all in all, maybe about $400 without keycaps.

The best savings will be in the PCB. Lots of PCB fabs will get you a much better deal in quantities of 50+, which we should have. No idea about getting the case cheaper, though.

This seems very steep. Hopefully the target price will be reached which will also include keycaps. $400 for an assembled board sans-caps, IMO, might be out of reach for many of us. I suppose only time will tell. If you guys are looking for volunteers related to working with the Keyboard mapping software I suppose I would be down. Seems like it could be an interesting experience.

Cheers,
IBM Model M 1390120, Otaku Unicomp+RGB, CM QFR Green, Ducky YOTD Red, SSK MKII

In Transit
ErgoDox Blue ErgoDox White

Offline boli

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[Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
« Reply #582 on: Mon, 30 April 2012, 03:09:40 »
Will the keyboard have F# keys? I just noticed there are none on the rendered pics:
« Last Edit: Mon, 30 April 2012, 03:11:45 by boli »
Keyboard: Kinesis Ergo Advantage (two LF editions with red Cherry switches, one regular with brown switches)
Keyboard layout: basically Colemak, with some remapping to end up with my custom Kinesis Advantage layout
Typing test profiles: typeracer.com / hi-games.net / keybr.com

Offline jblack801

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[Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
« Reply #583 on: Mon, 30 April 2012, 19:08:01 »
Quote from: boli;586130
Will the keyboard have F# keys? I just noticed there are none on the rendered pics:

I don't really see a need for dedicated f-keys. I'd prefer to have to do it similar to the poker where you hold FN+"appropriate number" to get your f-key.

Offline dorkvader

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[Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
« Reply #584 on: Tue, 01 May 2012, 19:06:12 »
Quote from: Autolyze;585891
I'm interested in one of these! I should have a bit of keyboard soldering experience under my belt by the time this gets produced.
I'll add you to the list!

Quote from: OrangeJewce;586062
This seems very steep. Hopefully the target price will be reached which will also include keycaps. $400 for an assembled board sans-caps, IMO, might be out of reach for many of us. I suppose only time will tell. If you guys are looking for volunteers related to working with the Keyboard mapping software I suppose I would be down. Seems like it could be an interesting experience.

Cheers,
I'm hoping we can get it down under $300, as a lot of people say they're committed up to that point.
Quote from: boli;586130
Will the keyboard have F# keys? I just noticed there are none on the rendered pics:
Show Image
Well, since it's programmable, all the keys are dedicated F keys, if you want. I imagine though that there's not a huge amount of need, especially considering the prospect of layers. You can have a dedicated "function" key to turn all the regular number keys into function keys. I imagine if you use them a lot, you can even convert some of the modifiers on the side into function keys (as I imagine I'll have more modifiers near the thumb area.
| Unicomp (BS) | WASD V1 (Brown) | CMstorm QF Rapid (Red) | Olivetti (RD) | WYSE 50 (Black) | WYSE 30 (Black) | Two * Access-IS 6x12 (Black) | Cherry G84-4101 SPAUS (ML) | WYSE PCE 840358 (Black) | IBM 6110668 31 JAN '84 | CMstorm QF Rapid (Blue) | NIB Cherry G80-8113 (Browns) | IBM Model F XT | 2* TG3 BL82 (Black) | Siig Minitouch (Monterey) | Cherry G80-8113 (browns) | CMstorm QF Rapid (Blue) | | CMstorm QF Rapid (Green)

Offline Parak

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[Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
« Reply #585 on: Wed, 02 May 2012, 00:04:20 »
If the pcb design can be exported in gerber, the costs from the chinese pcb shops would be pretty low in volume, likely under $50 per pair. Even less due to 2x volume scale if the design can be mirrored, though this would be a bit tricky. Cherry switches can be flipped around though, but there's also connectors and chips to consider..

Offline boli

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[Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
« Reply #586 on: Wed, 02 May 2012, 02:41:47 »
Quote from: jblack801;586795
I don't really see a need for dedicated f-keys. I'd prefer to have to do it similar to the poker where you hold FN+"appropriate number" to get your f-key.

How do you press F12 on the Poker? (used to move optical media tray in/out on Macs) :P

Quote from: dorkvader;587670
Well, since it's programmable, all the keys are dedicated F keys, if you want. I imagine though that there's not a huge amount of need, especially considering the prospect of layers. You can have a dedicated "function" key to turn all the regular number keys into function keys. I imagine if you use them a lot, you can even convert some of the modifiers on the side into function keys (as I imagine I'll have more modifiers near the thumb area.

F# keys are also nice to double as media keys and such, possibly when some sort of Fn is pressed (as e.g. on Apple keyboards). IMO Esc needs to be available on the top layer (without any modifiers) - that shouldn't be a problem with the extra keys around the main area.

As for the F# (and media) keys, I'm aware that 4 layers on the number row could partially do it (normal, shifted, function and media). There are not enough keys to spare for dedicated F#/media keys... Compared to a Kinesis Advantage it as 5 fewer keys overall (8 more in the main area, 13 less in the function row).

On the Kinesis I use most F# keys as media keys (most importantly play/pause and volume controls), and some of them as the real F# keys, namely those used for debugging in Eclipse. All of these are on the top layer, no modifier needed.
« Last Edit: Wed, 02 May 2012, 02:46:36 by boli »
Keyboard: Kinesis Ergo Advantage (two LF editions with red Cherry switches, one regular with brown switches)
Keyboard layout: basically Colemak, with some remapping to end up with my custom Kinesis Advantage layout
Typing test profiles: typeracer.com / hi-games.net / keybr.com

Offline mharrison

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[Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
« Reply #587 on: Wed, 02 May 2012, 10:35:29 »
Don't mean to rain on the parade, but when I see the exploded view of the layers, I'm concerned with the bolt design. The size of the holes, especially with the tapering, that close to the edge seems way too big. I'm not convinced that the corners will hold up. It would be awesome if someone with experience in industrial design could comment.

Offline Jim66

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[Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
« Reply #588 on: Wed, 02 May 2012, 10:43:36 »
I'm not sure if we are still going with this case design; not a lot has been said about the case recently.

Offline jblack801

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[Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
« Reply #589 on: Wed, 02 May 2012, 17:54:33 »
Quote from: boli;587911
How do you press F12 on the Poker? (used to move optical media tray in/out on Macs) :P
fn+"=/+"

Offline WhiteRice

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[Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
« Reply #590 on: Fri, 11 May 2012, 22:57:09 »
Is this project still in flight? Is it Dox's project or a GH community endeavor?

Offline ic07

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[Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
« Reply #591 on: Fri, 11 May 2012, 23:52:05 »
Quote from: WhiteRice;590236
Is this project still in flight? Is it Dox's project or a GH community endeavor?

Yup, it's nearing prototype :) .  And it's DOX's project - though there is a bit of community effort going on for interest tracking (dorkvader), and firmware (me), and a few people have said they might be able to make keymaps.

Offline dorkvader

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[Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
« Reply #592 on: Sat, 12 May 2012, 13:01:52 »
I'm glad I have the interest list saved on my computer: Just reupdated the second post.
| Unicomp (BS) | WASD V1 (Brown) | CMstorm QF Rapid (Red) | Olivetti (RD) | WYSE 50 (Black) | WYSE 30 (Black) | Two * Access-IS 6x12 (Black) | Cherry G84-4101 SPAUS (ML) | WYSE PCE 840358 (Black) | IBM 6110668 31 JAN '84 | CMstorm QF Rapid (Blue) | NIB Cherry G80-8113 (Browns) | IBM Model F XT | 2* TG3 BL82 (Black) | Siig Minitouch (Monterey) | Cherry G80-8113 (browns) | CMstorm QF Rapid (Blue) | | CMstorm QF Rapid (Green)


Offline OrangeJewce

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[Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
« Reply #594 on: Fri, 18 May 2012, 13:43:21 »
Update Bump! :bump2:
IBM Model M 1390120, Otaku Unicomp+RGB, CM QFR Green, Ducky YOTD Red, SSK MKII

In Transit
ErgoDox Blue ErgoDox White

Offline Dox

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[Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
« Reply #595 on: Fri, 18 May 2012, 14:29:58 »
I've been working ~70h a week in the last few weeks so I didn't had much time to put on this.
I have a 3 day weekend and I don't have anything planned so I want to finish the pcb layout and order it as soon as possible.
ErgoDox x2 | DoxKB x2 |   IBM SSK   | HHKB pro2

Offline dorkvader

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[Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
« Reply #596 on: Sat, 19 May 2012, 00:35:49 »
Quote from: Dox;595464
I've been working ~70h a week in the last few weeks so I didn't had much time to put on this.
I have a 3 day weekend and I don't have anything planned so I want to finish the pcb layout and order it as soon as possible.
This is why we love you, Dox. You are super busy, and still dedicated.
I mean, I only work 30 hours a week, and I'm not doing hardly anything to help. You are an inspiration to us all.
| Unicomp (BS) | WASD V1 (Brown) | CMstorm QF Rapid (Red) | Olivetti (RD) | WYSE 50 (Black) | WYSE 30 (Black) | Two * Access-IS 6x12 (Black) | Cherry G84-4101 SPAUS (ML) | WYSE PCE 840358 (Black) | IBM 6110668 31 JAN '84 | CMstorm QF Rapid (Blue) | NIB Cherry G80-8113 (Browns) | IBM Model F XT | 2* TG3 BL82 (Black) | Siig Minitouch (Monterey) | Cherry G80-8113 (browns) | CMstorm QF Rapid (Blue) | | CMstorm QF Rapid (Green)

Offline Dox

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[Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
« Reply #597 on: Mon, 21 May 2012, 17:56:46 »
PCB done!
[ Attachment Invalid Or Does Not Exist ] 50928[/ATTACH]
ErgoDox x2 | DoxKB x2 |   IBM SSK   | HHKB pro2

Offline Dox

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[Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
« Reply #598 on: Mon, 21 May 2012, 20:58:45 »
I have ordered some prototype PCBs. There is the option for PCB mounted switches, diode outside or inside the switch as well as SMD.
ErgoDox x2 | DoxKB x2 |   IBM SSK   | HHKB pro2

Offline dorkvader

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[Interest Check] Custom split ergo keyboard.
« Reply #599 on: Tue, 22 May 2012, 00:06:43 »
Wow, that's a good PCB, DOX!

I especially like the profusion of mounting holes. We sholud have no trouble with flex.

Are they one-sided PCB's with a lot of jumpers, or does the red denote traces on the second layer?
« Last Edit: Tue, 22 May 2012, 00:10:20 by dorkvader »
| Unicomp (BS) | WASD V1 (Brown) | CMstorm QF Rapid (Red) | Olivetti (RD) | WYSE 50 (Black) | WYSE 30 (Black) | Two * Access-IS 6x12 (Black) | Cherry G84-4101 SPAUS (ML) | WYSE PCE 840358 (Black) | IBM 6110668 31 JAN '84 | CMstorm QF Rapid (Blue) | NIB Cherry G80-8113 (Browns) | IBM Model F XT | 2* TG3 BL82 (Black) | Siig Minitouch (Monterey) | Cherry G80-8113 (browns) | CMstorm QF Rapid (Blue) | | CMstorm QF Rapid (Green)