kinesis advantage keycap replacement limitations

[Input Nirvana]

I'm still confused.. They should be R1, therefore you're looking for... R2?

When I ordered from WASD recently, the only 1x1.25 key available (in individual keys, at least) was R1 so I'm surprised you got an R2. Either way, I'll report on using three WASD R1 1x1.25 as the pinky keys when I receive them.

DANG! I'm getting confused. The WASD keys that I used to replace the Kinesis keys R1 1x1.25. I don't think there are R2 1x1.25. The existing Kinesis keys match an R2 1x1 profile, so it seems that we want R2 1x1.25 keys.

Please remember I keep going back to post #83 and fine tuning, correcting, clarifying, updating.

[Input Nirvana]

I am not done yet, but so far here is where I stand so far:


KEYBOARDING RESULTS:

Key issue #1-No problems and can't tell a difference.

Key issue #2-No problems but I can tell a difference. These two keys are very low use, so I'm going to say that the difference is negligible.

Key issue #3-No problems, I am currently using the R2 and am used to it.

Key issue #4-This I have not had the time to address  

[erw]

Sounds good!

Btw, what does a full standard replacement set from Kinesis cost?

[sordna]

Sounds good!

Btw, what does a full standard replacement set from Kinesis cost?

$35 for standard keycaps and $39 for the dual legend (qwerty/dvorak ones). Both come in black or white. That's what they quoted me early August. At that time I learned they even have black dual legend keycaps (for some reason I had thought the dvorak caps only came in white).

[fossala]

$35 for standard keycaps and $39 for the dual legend (qwerty/dvorak ones). Both come in black or white. That's what they quoted me early August. At that time I learned they even have black dual legend keycaps (for some reason I had thought the dvorak caps only came in white).

The dual legend ones are ugly, I type in dvorak and would prefer qwerty than dual. I wish they would sell me some blank ones, that would make me happy.

[sordna]

My first Kinesis had dual legends. I thought they were okay, but all my subsequent boards have QWERTY keycaps because I don't need to look at the keys at all! Hmm, never asked them if they have blanks, maybe they do, did you ever ask Kinesis about it? If you didn't please do, they respond pretty quickly to email.

[Input Nirvana]

They used to have blanks, but not for the last couple years at least. That was my very first question.

[Input Nirvana]

I have not been at my keyboard very much this week, but I'm pretty comfortable with the alternate non-Kinesis keycap replacements. The one last item I have not taken more time to address is the thumb cluster keycap work around using different key heights. I can do that more seriously this weekend and have final thoughts then.

[erw]

Got my caps.. these pics were taken at night and the colors are a little off. I tried to fix them in post-production and even though it might not look like it, the colors were worse before :-P

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I have tried the new keys on the various pinky key locations (key issues 1 & 2). Using an R1 as shift is fine. Using another key on the NUM row (I tried an original shift (R2)) is no problem for me, since I float to get up there anyway. The different slopes of the two middle pinky keys (caps lock and tab) are a bit more noticeable. I'd like to have the true R2s, but if it's not possible, it's not possible.

I'll get around to issues 3 & 4 in the new year.. :-)

[sordna]

Cool pics, those green and red accents look nice on this board!

[Input Nirvana]

It's nice to hear your thoughts on the key issues. I feel like I'm on an island and making decisions for others. Pressure!!

I like the look

[sordna]

Nah, I'll let you guys figure out the keycap replacement stuff. I got fed up dealing with keycaps during my o-ring/dental-band/landing-pad research :-)
But here's my thoughts on issue #2 (the + - top corner keys). Looking sideways at my original Kinesis keys, the + and - keys have a different angle than their neighbors on the same row (1 and 2). So using a flatter key would actually bring more consistency in that row, so the problem is not so much the slope, but the height. Keys in other rows are not tall enough to make good replacements. Sigh.
I wonder if WASDKeyboards can find Kinesis' supplier (or co-operate with Kinesis) and get blank Kinesis keysets to sell as is, or etched/engraved.

[Input Nirvana]

WASD said exactly that, so I'll email him a reminder.

Note 2 original Kinesis white keys (issue #1, #2) relative to red and orange keys.


Note 2 gray R2 keys and same red and orange keys.

[erw]

KEY ISSUE #4 (affects 4 keys-thumb cluster single keys)
The two keys at the top of the cluster are very tall (see P1 on KPS chart). The slope is not a problem, it's available, but not in a key of that dramatic height. I'm working on changing some other key heights for a work around. Since we didn't have any of the 2 highest keys, I'm playing with adjusting all three key heights. In the pictures above, you can see the original Kinesis keys with legends, and the 2 lower keys that are the appropriate keys for those positions (red and grey keys). What I've done to keep the staggered height, is to remove the highest keys and move the keys "up" a spot to see if it will all work together. There are a couple ways to do this, and I'm looking for what's best.
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I have tried moving the keys up and putting an R1 in the "hole" as in your second picture. It does not look like a big difference, but it feels big. I can no longer hit a "stair" key without also hitting the one below it, or having to twist my thumb in an uncomfortable manner. The modifier above Enter also requires an uncomfortable twist of the thumb.

I would not use these replacements. I think we really need the tall keys, unfortunately. I also guess Kinesis would only have used these apparently non-standard keys if they were necessary.

[Input Nirvana]

100% agree. I replaced the original keys last night, noted the feel and swapped with replacements this morning...not satisfied with the downgraded experience.

The profile of the 4 keys is available, the height is the problem.

Time to consider options.

[fossala]

If anyone wants doubleshots http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Working-Kinesis-Contoured-Ergonomic-Keyboard-Model-100-DIN-PS-2-/170756710450?pt=PCA_Mice_Trackballs&hash=item27c1e4a032
It's in USA and has the grey spherical keys.

[dorkvader]

100% agree. I replaced the original keys last night, noted the feel and swapped with replacements this morning...not satisfied with the downgraded experience.

The profile of the 4 keys is available, the height is the problem.

Time to consider options.

Can you source "row5" keycaps like on the Race? They look a bit taller.
Here's the picture I was thinking of:
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Also, something looks off about the right enter key on that kinesis on ebay. It might just be me, though.

[erw]

Also, something looks off about the right enter key on that kinesis on ebay. It might just be me, though.

Totally off. Wtf.


About key issue 3, the home keys, I have placed my old arrow keys in my right hand home row instead of the spherical keys. Even though they're R1, they're pretty easy to use. But I think they should be replaced by R3. It seems to make for the smoothest curve.

I really thought I'd miss the spherical form that cradles your fingertips, but the standard cylindrical shape is not too bad. And it looks kind of refreshing to not have blue home keys, btw:

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[Input Nirvana]

R1, R2, and R3.... Comparing the 3 of these for the home row, can you please rate in order of preference and why?

[erw]

I don't have four spare R2's or R3's so if I take them from the other parts of the board, it's a bit hard to test how they feel during "unconscious" usage, i.e. typing naturally without thinking about it, because the other parts of the board will have weird keys. But since the R1's are acceptable, the R3's are closest to the slope of the sphericals (i.e., level), and the R2 is in between, I'd guess my order of preference is R3, R2, R1 with R3 being the most preferred.

But when I get home from uni today, I'll swap some R3's from the other side of the board and see how "unconscious" I can make it :-)

[erw]

I should guess less and test more. R3s as home keys just do not feel right. It's weird that such small differences mean so much for the fingers. Changing them around makes me feel all not-at-home at my keyboard.

But having actually tried all three options now, I'm gonna go with R2 as the winner. I can't decide on who gets second place but it would probably be R1.

[Input Nirvana]

I should guess less and test more. R3s as home keys just do not feel right. It's weird that such small differences mean so much for the fingers. Changing them around makes me feel all not-at-home at my keyboard.

But having actually tried all three options now, I'm gonna go with R2 as the winner. I can't decide on who gets second place but it would probably be R1.

AH-HA!!! I thought so! R2, even though it seems the flattest profile would be best since the sphericals are 'flat'. I'm glad someone else came to that SAME EXACT conclusion. Erw, you make a GREAT guinea pig. Thanks for playing We get a third person to concur, and I'll close that chapter for good.

INPUT NIRVANA GOING OUT ON A LIMB: I like the home row sphericals, but am now wondering if they are a 'compromise key cap'?

We're knocking down these key issues one by one....almost there!

[erw]

Heh, yeah, after posting I noticed back in one your previous posts that you ended up with R2 as well, so it was a good match :-)

I'm still typing with my left hand home keys as R1 and my right hand home keys as R2 and the rest of the board is a mess :-P

What do you mean by "compromise key cap"?

[Input Nirvana]

Compromise key cap. All keyboards have compromises. Maybe they wanted to have special keys for home row, maybe marketing, maybe And that's why the blue sphericals. Maybe the R2 is the perfect key, and rather than put a nub on the index fingers they went whole hog with blue sphericals. We should ask the thinking behind that choice for insight.

That is my head working overtime on a key cap.

[erw]

Looking back a bit,

For the right hand keywell/thumb cluster the "SPACE" key is an 'enter' key on a num pad. The "ENTER" key is a '+' key on a num pad.

Do normal num pad plus keys have a sideways slope?

And what about the left hand delete key?

[kps]

Do normal num pad plus keys have a sideways slope?

No, the Space and BackSpace keys don't have a sideways slope; they are the same as a number pad Enter in the source profile.

And what about the left hand delete key?

The Delete and Enter keys, the sideways-sloping ones, are modifier-row keys turned on their sides.

[Input Nirvana]

Yea, the 4 long thumb cluster key caps are "standard" that WASD has in stock.

[erw]

The Delete and Enter keys, the sideways-sloping ones, are modifier-row keys turned on their sides.

Ok, so they're not num pad plus keys, they're modifiers. That clears it up.

[erw]

I just got some samples of O-rings. Their effect on the noise not as big as I had hoped for, but it feels like someone is inside my keyboard, holding the keys for me. Almost as if someone is caressing my fingertips when I type :-P

So anyway, how are we doing with the tall modifiers?

[Input Nirvana]

I'm mostly out of the loop for about 30 days (out of town). I think we were asking someone with a Race/Phantom for key cap measurements. Or, some bold person would contact and charm Kinesis to see what info they will offer on the key caps we have not found.

No info in wiki? I looked but may have missed.

If everything fails, I will make a bunch this summer. (see GH thread on making key caps)