kinesis advantage keycap replacement limitations

[oneproduct]

Yup, you're right boli, I got those R1 and R4 confused. Fixed my post.

[Dox]

I got the keyboard from sordna's kinesis try and forward tour and I can confirm that the high thumb keys on the 20 years old keyboard ARE Signature Plastics DCS row 5.

[Input Nirvana]

I got the keyboard from sordna's kinesis try and forward tour and I can confirm that the high thumb keys on the 20 years old keyboard ARE Signature Plastics DCS row 5.

HOLY ****!!!
Can you believe it??? Pics!!!
So, does that mean:
-ALL key cap issues are addressed on the Kinesis?
-We now know what every EXACT key replacement is?
-No key caps are "custom"?


How do you like the Kinesis? Maybe an Ergo-Dox tweak or two? OR maybe a Kinesis tweakie? LOL

[sordna]

I don't know what they are, but these high doubleshot old kinesis keys are a bit lower than my modern kinesis' high keys.

[Dox]

I haven't tried the kinesis much yet but first impressions are good!

Pics!!!
[ Attachment Invalid Or Does Not Exist ] 42515[/ATTACH] [ Attachment Invalid Or Does Not Exist ] 42516[/ATTACH] [ Attachment Invalid Or Does Not Exist ] 42517[/ATTACH] [ Attachment Invalid Or Does Not Exist ] 42518[/ATTACH]

[Input Nirvana]

The single shot key caps have a taller skirt than the double shot key caps. You can see the extensive measurements and concise graphics Kps made earlier in this thread (posts #52, 54, 58). Same key cap, just a taller skirt. Kps measured the stem and the key top height is the same on the board. So it makes sense the double shot key caps from SP have the same dimensions...I discovered this earlier when I was at WASDKeyboards and figured out SP was the original key cap supplier for the Kinesis.

Dox, thank you for putting the star on the top of the tree! Crazy how it got figured out, too, heh heh

I guess I should go back and edit the big key cap page, or just post there to find the exact replacement list here. I'm limited to iPhone web access for a while, so most in depth posting/graphics/naked girls will be at a minimum. The post from Oneproduct, does it have the correct key cap designations for exact replacement now? (Ignoring color, type of plastic, legends, etc.)

[boli]

If we do double shot ABS it will be much cheaper because we can get an alpha-numerial kit (number row, all letters, punctuation) for a reasonable price because they match with sets that can be ordered through the group buy whereas for PBT ones we'd be the only ones ordering them really.

So if you want to get a whole set in double shot ABS it's possible (with Colemak instead of qwerty at no additional cost) BUT if you want to do PBT (as I do) then it's better to buy a blank set from elsewhere at a cheaper price and just get the PBT keys that we couldn't find elsewhere from this group buy, which are the 8 side keys of size 1.25

Hmm, I couldn't find anywhere what material the ROUND3 doubleshots are. I assumed they were PBT, but if I understand you correctly they are in fact ABS? (If so I better adjust my order of the 1.25 wide side keys to match)

The single shot key caps have a taller skirt than the double shot key caps. You can see the extensive measurements and concise graphics Kps made earlier in this thread (posts #52, 54, 58). Same key cap, just a taller skirt.

I see, so that is where the difference comes from. Not an issue at all then!

Crazy how it got figured out, too, heh heh

So we have:

• Alpha keys, extra bottom row, most thumb keys either from WASDkeyboards or round 4 group buy, with the exception of the 3 and 8 key (3 and 8 are only an issue if you want legends, no issue for blank key caps).
• Side keys (1.25 wide) from round 4 group buy
• Tall thumb keys from Signature Plastics

Correct?

[dorkvader]

Hmm, I couldn't find anywhere what material the ROUND3 doubleshots are. I assumed they were PBT, but if I understand you correctly they are in fact ABS? (If so I better adjust my order of the 1.25 wide side keys to match)

As far as I can tell, all doubleshots are ABS. I know for a fact that SP only does doubleshot ABS, so the round3 keys must be. I don't have any firsthand knowledge, as I didn't participate in round3, though.

[kps]

As far as I can tell, all doubleshots are ABS.

Yeah, PBT shrinks as it sets, so it's not practical to double-shot it.

[boli]

Thank you guys for the confirmation!

[Input Nirvana]

So we have:

• Alpha keys, extra bottom row, most thumb keys either from WASDkeyboards or round 4 group buy, with the exception of the 3 and 8 key (3 and 8 are only an issue if you want legends, no issue for blank key caps).
• Side keys (1.25 wide) from round 4 group buy
• Tall thumb keys from Signature Plastics

Correct?

- Is this correct? ^^^
- The tall thumb keys from SP, can they be blank doubleshot?
- The Group Buy 4, (ABS doubleshot) is that coming from SP?
- Now the keys are all figured out, is this something WASD could put together?
- Boli...any info from 7bit?

*Boli, "E" on the thumb cluster layout? Share???

[boli]

- Is this correct? ^^^

I obviously think so, but having it double-checked by someone else can't hurt.

- The tall thumb keys from SP, can they be blank doubleshot?
- The Group Buy 4, (ABS doubleshot) is that coming from SP?

No idea. Dorkvader mentioned the leftover round3 doubleshots were from SP, dunno about the new round4 caps.

- Now the keys are all figured out, is this something WASD could put together?
- Boli...any info from 7bit?

Still haven't gotten a reply from 7bit. I assume we'll have to make do with getting the 1.25 wide side keys this time around, and will have to get SP DCS row 5 some other way.

Haven't heard from Weyman either, the last he wrote was that he'll make an extra layout template for us Kinesis Advantage users. I assume he's very busy with the fully custom ISO keyboards he introduced recently.
Was your idea to have Weyman order those 1.25 unit wide side keys, as well as the DCS row 5 from SP (or whoever makes them) so he can offer complete sets to us Kinesis users? I remember he won't laser key caps we send him because of the risk losing them on the way.

"E" on the thumb cluster layout? Share???

You can find out symphonic's and my own trials at the Colemak forum in Optimizing the Maltron layout. The idea is taking the Colemak layout, putting E on the left thumb, moving a few other letters around (as few as possible) and hopefully getting a good Malt-like layout.
At this stage we're just messing around, though a few of the basic ideas seem quite promising, and they feel alright in a quick tryout. Here's an example:

Code: [Select]

qwfp *  j luy;
arst g  h ndio
zxcv b  k m,./

     e  Space  
The * spot is unused. If I end up switching to this I might put Tab there, as I noticed during the TrulyErgonomic test that having Tab operated by the index finger feels very nice.
I'd like to use Michael ****en's layout analyzer/optimizer on those ideas, once it supports putting letters on the left thumb. The web analyzer as well as carPalx don't seem to be all that well suited to the task.

[dorkvader]

- The Group Buy 4, (ABS doubleshot) is that coming from SP?

Yep, since devlin are expensive, unless something radical changes, Round4 should be through SP. I guess I'm the bridge to the GB forum?

[Input Nirvana]

Boli/Dorkvader-
Thank you for all the answers!

Boli-
Regarding the Malt Optimization thread on the Colemak forum, I hadn't checked up on that thread recently...and look what you guys have done! I think there is a major Kinesis-specific layout hidden in some on that work. In my split Kinesis mod article, I have a header and pics for the custom-optimized layout that should be developed. I'll need to link the Colemak thread, it's just that juicy

[boli]

Yep, since devlin are expensive, unless something radical changes, Round4 should be through SP. I guess I'm the bridge to the GB forum?

Cheers! Wut there's stuff outside the ergo/layout subforums? Seriously though, that round 4 thread is massive. Just saw posts about 4 separate group buys and whatnot, will need to read on.

Regarding the Malt Optimization thread on the Colemak forum, I hadn't checked up on that thread recently...and look what you guys have done! I think there is a major Kinesis-specific layout hidden in some on that work. In my split Kinesis mod article, I have a header and pics for the custom-optimized layout that should be developed.

I suppose you mean the "KEYBOARD KEY LAYOUT MODIFICATIONS" section? I was hoping for something more specific in there. But it's nice to see you're also fascinated by the Malt premise of putting a letter on a thumb key. Other Kinesis specific layouts such as Arensito (which features a single thumb Shift, something tricky to combine with thumb letter+space) or the MTGAP Kinesis versions are also interesting... the latter might become more so once left thumb keys can be included in the optimizations/analysis.

[sordna]

Once you add some thumb keys to the Kinesis it all falls into place, I can assign at least 2 letters on my thumb keys :-) Love my extra thumb keys, but I'll be adding palm keys very soon.

[Input Nirvana]

Sordna:
I think that a majority of the performance gains are from adding only 2 thumb keys and that radically changes the Kinesis. More than 2 are still better though. I noted adding thumb keys in the "aircraft carrier" thread.

Boli:
Yea, it's chicken **** I don't have real, original content in the keyboard layout section yet. It is meant as a placeholder until I got around to playing with putting "E" on the left thumb cluster. But soon I'll link the threads/posts on GH and Colemak (and their links) as they develop/clarify a bit more.

[dorkvader]

Once you add some thumb keys to the Kinesis it all falls into place, I can assign at least 2 letters on my thumb keys :-) Love my extra thumb keys, but I'll be adding palm keys very soon.

I assume the palm keys are for control?

Cheers! Wut there's stuff outside the ergo/layout subforums? Seriously though, that round 4 thread is massive. Just saw posts about 4 separate group buys and whatnot, will need to read on.

Yeah, there's a GB for red on black "ragnorock" which was invented, added to r4, then spun off. Since SP quoted lower prices to him, 7bit wants to "spin off" all the styles in an attempt to get lower pricing. Ofcourse the "special" addon kits are still expensive.

Also, since there are a number of similar GB's being run by people who want their moogle kits NOW, those have been detached. I've already got some excellent RGBY, and I'm participating in another RGBY, as well as WYSE (and maybe moogle) kit GB's.

Hah! I should write up a round4 timeline with all the details.

[sordna]

I assume the palm keys are for control?

No, they will be for shift and/or access to the 2nd layer.

[Input Nirvana]

Key issue has been one of the hardest to resolve, and has taken the most people!

I noticed that we, as a group, have made some very big headway with Kinesis issues recently. We now have almost fully addressed every aspect of the Kinesis (as broken down in the Split Kinesis Mod article) other than firmware. Just a few more incidental steps/trials/fine tuning, and the Kinesis project will have been effectively reverse engineered, upgraded, customized and rebuilt. This has been my goal from my first post (of 2,500 so far) over 2.5 years ago. There was almost NO Kinesis activity when I joined.

A few more months with practical applications of these advances, and my tenure here at Geekhack should be slowing to a graceful close. I had no idea the path would be so involved and convoluted. LOL

[boli]

Did anyone else's round 4 group buy prices go up? The Colemak alpha set is $69 now, up from $39.

Code: [Select]

Order-ID           |Description                                  |Price|Qty|Pcs|Total
BLANK/R1U125/BLACK |Blank 1.25 units (row 1 / Function row) /50  | 2.00|  4|  4| 8.00
BLANK/R3U125/BLACK |Blank 1.25 units (row 3 / ASDFGH row) /50    | 2.00|  2|  2| 4.00
BLANK/R3U125X/BLACK|Blank 1.25 units (10x row 3 / ASDFGH row) /50|18.00|  1| 10|18.00
ROUND3/ALPHACOLEMAK|! A-Z and Punctuation keys COLEMAK           |69.00|  1| 53|69.00
Total              |                                             |     |   | 69|99.00

On another note, I'll ask Weyman about a the Kinesis template again.

[Input Nirvana]

$70 is too much in my opinion. If I wanted Colemak doublshots or PBT, I don't think I'd spend $70. I'm thinking my limit is about $45-$50 entire set for blank doubleshots exact replacements (I have not priced out black blank doubleshots or PBT). Plus a few extras for the added Kinesis mod keys.

[Input Nirvana]

ZOIKS!!! I just read your invoice...it's $99 USD for the entire keyboard with Colemak and others are blanks...is it me or does that seem like a hell of a lot of money for a set of keycaps? Are these the doubleshot ABS? Maybe the blanks are cheaper, but with some of those caps costing $2 each, there's no way a complete replacement set will be in the $50-$60 dollar range that I think is reasonable. I can buy a lot of Guiness for that amount of money.

I guess I went to sleep last night and woke up this morning a cheap-ass.

I'm thinking about sanding a keycap per day and having smooth, legendless, pimp-daddy keycaps in 68 days all for the cost of a few pieces of sand paper.

[boli]

Yes, it did become quite expensive. I never had doubleshots, they could be worth it, I just don't know. $64 for just an alpha set, of which I can probably only use 30 key caps (not the num row, due to the different profile of the 3 and 8 keys) doesn't sound very attractive.

I'm currently checking out the prices of the other styles, here's the update (I checked by placing a preorder since the pricelist used to be off at times, but ATM it matches the email). I also had to check if the price was a mistake and alpha + colemak separately would come cheaper (it does!).

Code: [Select]

RETRO/ALPHA        |! A-Z and Punctuation keys                   |29.00|  1| 53| 29.00
RETRO/COLEMAK      |! Colemak language kit                       |29.00|  1| 14| 29.00
RETRO/ALPHACOLEMAK |! A-Z and Punctuation keys COLEMAK           |64.00|  1| 53| 64.00

ROUND3/ALPHA       |! A-Z and Punctuation keys                   |29.00|  1| 53| 29.00
ROUND3/COLEMAK     |! Colemak language kit                       |29.00|  1| 14| 29.00
ROUND3/ALPHACOLEMAK|! A-Z and Punctuation keys COLEMAK           |64.00|  1| 53| 64.00

SPH/ALPHA          |! A-Z and Punctuation keys                   |29.00|  1| 54| 29.00
SPH/COLEMAK        |Colemak language kit                         | 9.00|  1| 14|  9.00
SPH/ALPHACOLEMAK   |! A-Z and Punctuation keys COLEMAK           |54.00|  1| 54| 54.00

A fully customized set from WASDkeyboards (if Weyman comes through) would be $60, and apparently he might offer PBT keys in 4 to 6 months, so the WASD option is very tempting!
I might cancel all of my round 4 GB orders other than the 1.25 wide side keys, we'll see. I asked 7bit to clarify about the overpriced Colemak options.

[Input Nirvana]

I feel like a douche. You guys did so much work figuring out and conveying the exact Kinesis replacement caps and since I'm squeezed on time and cash I haven't even fully reviewed everything. Good thing I trust your judgment.

My thought:
Is the group buy (blanks) any cheaper than from SP directly? I say buy exactly one exact Kinesis set from SP and tell Weyman he is not responsible for a laser engrave/etch problem. I mean really, this is what needs to happen in the real world. We need to know what one exact Kinesis replacement set costs from SP. I will buy a blank set, have him engrave it. If it's good, you buy it, if there is a problem, I'll keep it since I don't care about legends.  Good idea huh?

[boli]

That would be awesome IN!

[Input Nirvana]

1- We need a price from SP for the exact replacement set in both doubleshot and PBT.
2- Cost for Weyman to put on legends.

Maybe buying 2-5 blank sets will help pricing?

I don't have time for doing this.

[boli]

7bit replied to the high Colemak set prices:

This is wrong, I will correct the prices. They will be lower.

Expect $54 for ALPHACOLEMAK at most, maybe less.

SPH/COLEMAK might be a bit more expensive and SPH/ALPHA a bit cheaper.

To bring prices really down, please order more!!!

The prices haven't changed much yet though.

[boli]

1- We need a price from SP for the exact replacement set in both doubleshot and PBT.
2- Cost for Weyman to put on legends.

Maybe buying 2-5 blank sets will help pricing?

I don't have time for doing this.

A Kinesis set (with cylindrical instead of spherical home keys) from SP would be something like this (please check and confirm/point out mistakes):

• 10 DCS row 1 1x1
• 12 DCS row 2 1x1
• 12 DCS row 3 1x1
• 18 DCS row 4 1x1
• 4 DCS row 5 1x1
• 2 DCS row 1 1x1.25
• 6 DCS row 3 1x1.25
• 2 NumPad+, maybe something like DCS row 3(?) 2x1 (vertical)
• 2 DCS row 4 1x2

If you pm me the email of SP's contact (Melissa I think?) I'll ask.

[Input Nirvana]

IDEA:
We need to make a KPS diagram and schedule with the Signature Plastics key caps designations for the Kinesis. Then post in this thread and the Split Kinesis Mod wiki so it will be easily available for future reference. It should show the sphericals and the cylindrical equivalents for the home row. If someone doesn't get to to it, I'll do it eventually when I'm back in the next month or so.