kinesis advantage keycap replacement limitations

[boli]

Boli-Are you closer to the answer than I am?

Well I'm reasonably sure we want the keys I listed in the diagram, but I will ask Melissa to confirm.

BTW Weyman replied this:

Technically, I could make the missing keycaps. But, the problem is still the initial tooling costs of making the mold and then producing the minimum quantity needed for each color. Unfortunately, I don't think there's going to be enough demand overall to justify making them. You have a link to the thread? I'll take a look and maybe I can at least work something out with SP to get the missing keys in a single color.

I returned the link of your official parts list post.

[Input Nirvana]

Ok, I could telephone her as well tomorrow to try and confirm. I'd need to email the diagram first and ask her to call me after she figures out what I'm talking about.

Should I do that, or do you think you got it? Is it easier if it's verbal verses email? Let me know, I'm happy to do it. We're so close!

[boli]

She confirmed we need vertical 2x1 row 4/4 (NumPadEnter) and horizontal 1x2 row 4 (NumPadZero). I sent along your picture above.

Yes our keycaps will look like what you have illustrated, but please be aware that ours are a bit shorter in profile than those pictured. Attached is a picture of our keycaps compared to standard Filco keycaps which are taller, like those pictured.

The file she attached is this: Filco vs. Signature Plastics key caps

If the Filco keys match WASDkeyboards keys like she said, we might have trouble mixing SP keys with WASD keys. :-/

That said, the only crucial SP key caps (in my opinion anyway) are the tall thumb cluster keys (DCS row 5). I suggest one of you guys in the US orders one to see how well it fits.
The 1.25 wide side keys would be nice to have, but not a dealbreaker (IMO), as the WASD replacements work fairly well. I think I'll stick to my order of those from the round 4 group buy, so will hopefully be able to see how well they mix and match.

Personally I'm most interested in a custom lasered set with as many proper keys as possible, so I hope Weyman will come through.

A full blank set from SP is not important to me, but I might buy one for cheap (say $40, which is the price we get for 25+ sets).

[Input Nirvana]

She confirmed we need vertical 2x1 row 4/4 (NumPadEnter) and horizontal 1x2 row 4 (NumPadZero). I sent along your picture above.
The file she attached is this: Filco vs. Signature Plastics key caps

YAYYY! We are positively confirmed! I made the corrections in the thread and Split Kinesis mod wiki for the "OFFICIAL PARTS LIST". I'll add the Kps/Boli diagram now in the wiki article for visual reference.

If the Filco keys match WASDkeyboards keys like she said, we might have trouble mixing SP keys with WASD keys. :-/

Yes, WASD keys are Filco keys. I don't think there would be much of an issue mixing, but if we do this whole thing right, we shouldn't have to. That's what I've been trying for

That said, the only crucial SP key caps (in my opinion anyway) are the tall thumb cluster keys (DCS row 5). I suggest one of you guys in the US orders one to see how well it fits.

Dox confirmed the SP DSC Row 5 1x1 to the the 4 tall thumb cluster keys. I looked in the awesome key wiki, but I don't see that Filco has a Row 5 key? That would explain why WASD drew a complete blank when looking at the 4 tall keys on the Kinesis.

The 1.25 wide side keys would be nice to have, but not a dealbreaker (IMO), as the WASD replacements work fairly well. I think I'll stick to my order of those from the round 4 group buy, so will hopefully be able to see how well they mix and match.

Personally I'm most interested in a custom lasered set with as many proper keys as possible, so I hope Weyman will come through.

A full blank set from SP is not important to me, but I might buy one for cheap (say $40, which is the price we get for 25+ sets).

It doesn't matter where the blank keys come from, just that they are the correct replacement keys and that WASD will laser them. That way we have the option of correct blanks and correct custom laser.

It seems to me that WASD getting and stocking blanks from SP (or whomever) and selling them as blanks and custom laser will make almost everyone happy. But there's always a malcontent in every group

What did you wind up buying from the round 4 group buy? It's still going for a couple days....

We are at the very least finally complete with the key cap replacement search (more manufacturers are always an option), so now it's just creating a path to getting custom keys somewhat readily available at a reasonable cost for the future.

[boli]

Yes, WASD keys are Filco keys. I don't think there would be much of an issue mixing, but if we do this whole thing right, we shouldn't have to.

Well I already have 3 keyboards full of WASDkeyboards caps. About the mixing, IIRC Filco/WASD and SP keys have different stem lengths to make up somewhat (totally?) for the different skirt length. Melissa's comparison picture makes the difference look more pronounced than I thought, hence my concerns.

Dox confirmed the SP DSC Row 5 1x1 to the the 4 tall thumb cluster keys. I looked in the awesome key wiki, but I don't see that Filco has a Row 5 key? That would explain why WASD drew a complete blank when looking at the 4 tall keys on the Kinesis.

I thought they were function keys, but the Filco vs. SP comparison pics made me doubt myself. I wonder if Melissa's comparison picture shouldn't read R5, R1 to R4 from top to bottom. As it is, it lists row 4 twice, and doesn't have the number row. I asked for clarification.

It doesn't matter where the blank keys come from, just that they are the correct replacement keys and that WASD will laser them. [snip] It seems to me that WASD getting and stocking blanks from SP (or whomever) and selling them as blanks and custom laser will make almost everyone happy.

That would be awesome, my hopes are on Weyman (you did see his message above?).

What did you wind up buying from the round 4 group buy?

I'll get 3 sets of 1.25-wide side keys for sure, and maybe a round3 Colemak Alpha set. Current price is too high though, still more than QWERTY Alpha + Colemak set (still have those in my order to get price updates, will remove them eventually), which doesn't make sense.

[Input Nirvana]

Well I already have 3 keyboards full of WASDkeyboards caps. About the mixing, IIRC Filco/WASD and SP keys have different stem lengths to make up somewhat (totally?) for the different skirt length. Melissa's comparison picture makes the difference look more pronounced than I thought, hence my concerns.

Yea, too risky to try and put a custom laser set with mixing key caps. No one wants crap. Stupid different stem lengths. I had mixed Kinesis doubleshots and Kinesis singleshots and didn't notice a difference, but that doesn't mean anything. I'm taking the idea of mixing off the radar, too problematic. And...we shouldn't need to do this.

I thought they were function keys, but the Filco vs. SP comparison pics made me doubt myself. I wonder if Melissa's comparison picture shouldn't read R5, R1 to R4 from top to bottom. As it is, it lists row 4 twice, and doesn't have the number row. I asked for clarification.

I'm not happy with that entire sheet. I also saw it in Ripsters ever-more-awesome key wiki, and hated it there too. It doesn't answer questions, and creates more questions. There are other comparisons in the wiki showing Filco and SP...they show 2 top rows the same keys and no Row 5. I asked a question in Rippys subforum if Filco has a Row 5 keycap. Let's see if he 1) tears me to shreds, 2) ignores me, 3) answers.

That would be awesome, my hopes are on Weyman (you did see his message above?).

Saw his note. I'm not at the 'making custom key caps' threshold. There should be no reason for it (unless I'm missing something?). The best pricing would be from getting complete sets from one source (consistency) and all the keys are currently manufactured....so....I want this for everybody. No compromise. (Am I missing something?)

I'll get 3 sets of 1.25-wide side keys for sure, and maybe a round3 Colemak Alpha set. Current price is too high though, still more than QWERTY Alpha + Colemak set (still have those in my order to get price updates, will remove them eventually), which doesn't make sense.

I pulled my interest off that group buy because it was confusing, think I had to buy a bunch of extras, too expensive, still may not have gotten what I want, and I have not had the time to devote to sorting it all out and getting it done. It's been a nasty several months for me, and everything has suffered I am intrigued by his blank doubleshots though.

In my opinion we've come too far and put too much effort to settle for imperfection for something as simple as key caps, that we should be able to buy easily from Kinesis or a source they could have easily directed us too. I'm not willing to hodge-podge this last step to Kinesis-Nirvana, and I don't want you or anyone else to either. Forget mixing, manufacturing some 'missing' keys, group buying mix-n-match, or whatever. I want the 2 manufacturers of the Kinesis keys (SP is one of them), and I want pricing and options. This is going to happen.

Ba-da-BING!

[Icarium]

I had mixed Kinesis doubleshots and Kinesis singleshots and didn't notice a difference, but that doesn't mean anything.

There are DS Kinesis caps?

[Input Nirvana]

There are DS Kinesis caps?

You didn't the KEY CAP section in the Split Kinesis mod wiki?
There are even pics
Click my sig.
Sigh.

[Icarium]

You didn't the KEY CAP section in the Split Kinesis mod wiki?

Well, it's REALLY LONG!
Combined with the fact that I don't generally care much about keycaps... maybe I was just too distracted by the boobs. ^^

[boli]

Regarding the Filco vs. SP PDF from Melissa, she clarified:

On a standard keyboard, the function row and the number row are the same height and are row 1 keycaps. The QWERTY row is row 2, the ASDFG row is row 3 and the bottom two rows are row 4.
I hope this clarifies!

No time for other stuff ATM (work).

[bogboar]

I swapped my keys out during one of the early cherry keycap group buys, and they work _awesome_. I never looked back, and there is nothing unusual about the keys. The main issue is relocating keys from various rows to the thumb keys. The kinesis keys are all kinda tall though, so YMMV.
(Attachment Link) 30709[/ATTACH]

How do you game on your Kinesis – do you operate WASD with your pinky/ring/middle fingers? Seems to me like if a man were to get a Kinesis, a man would migrate to ESDF-centric gaming.

[Input Nirvana]

No time for other stuff ATM (work).

I'm making effort

http://geekhack.org/showthread.php?29302-The-only-place-on-the-planet-for-this

EDIT---
I'm traveling on iPhone, so hard for me to search.
- Does Dox know who makes 7bits GB4 keys?
- Do we know that these are exact Kinesis replacements?
- I'm looking for Filco key info similar to SP diagrams.

[boli]

How do you game on your Kinesis – do you operate WASD with your pinky/ring/middle fingers? Seems to me like if a man were to get a Kinesis, a man would migrate to ESDF-centric gaming.

Exactly right, ESDF it is (but then I used ESDF even before switching to the Kinesis).

I'm making effort

Cheers for checking. So far we learned that the Race function (F#) key row is also called R5, just like the tall SP keys, right?

[Input Nirvana]

So far we learned that the Race function (F#) key row is also called R5, just like the tall SP keys, right?

Yes, and a little more than that. I've made the conversions. Anything in RED is not confirmed yet and we need to still follow up.
(This is copied from the Everything Kinesis Advantage wiki....I renamed the Split Kinesis Mod Project, LOL!)
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
The same exact key caps with the taller skirt (Filco/Costar). So far:
ORDERING INFORMATION (Costar/Filco/equal option):

A Kinesis set (with cylindrical instead of spherical home keys):

[LIST=|INDENT=1]
[*=left]10 row 4 1x1..........1 2 4 5 6 7 9 0 Home PageUp
[*=left]12 row 3 1x1..........Q W E R T Y I O U P 3 8
[*=left]*12 row 2 1x1........A S D F G H J K L ;: End PageDown
[*=left]18 row 1 1x1..........Z X C V B N M ,< .> /? `~ \| Larrow Rarrow Uarrow Darrow [[ ]]
[*=left]4 row 5 1x1............CTRL ALT/OPT Command/Win (the 4 keys at the top of the thumb clusters vary in function depending on OS used)
[*=left]2 row 4 1x1.25.......=+ -_.....A Costar/Filco part?
[*=left]6 row 2 1x1.25.......Tab \| CapLock '" Shift Shift.....A Costar/Filco part?
[*=left]2 row 1 1x2 (turned vertical).....Enter Delete
[*=left]2 row 1x2 vertical (NumPadEnter)......Space Backspace
[/LIST]

To have the 8 home row keys as the original 'spherical' keycaps:
- Only 4 Row 2 1x1..........G H End PageDown
- Add 8 DSA Row 3 1x1...........A S D F J K L ;: (these may be a "Deep Dish" key cap).....A Costar/Filco part number?
I disregard the "homing bump" option for the index fingers when using the spherical keys options (see DSA sheet)

A tactile homing "bump" or "bar" can be used on the index fingers of the home row if the spherical keys are not used. Hardly required since the keywells mostly guide your fingers to the correct locations:
- *Only 10 row 3 1x1.....................................A S D G H K L ;: End PageDown

- Add 2 DCS row 3 1x1 with "bump" or "bar".......F J.....A Costar/Filco part number?

[boli]

BTW regarding concerns about mixing keys: I don't mind if some keys have a shorter skirt (only a visual deficiency), but if their height and slope does not match (functional deficiency) that's suboptimal. Slightly different slope (such as WASD's 1.25 wide keys) is not nearly as bad as different height (tall thumb keys) though.

[Input Nirvana]

Height/slope not correct=bad, not acceptable. We are not going that path.

Skirt height mixing=not bad, but we are trying to avoid. We only need: R2 1x1.25 and R4 1x1.25 (NOT SP designations!!!) and we are complete. The other 2 line items are sphericals, and R2 1x1 with homing bumps/bars, and these are optional.

We know these keys are made. They are on our keyboards, and SP didn't make them. I doubt these are custom. I can't find the Costar/Filco/Race/Anything with a key cap schedule anywhere on the web...I mean really, is it possible it's not "out there"? A couple people on our geeky keyboard sites and then emails to suppliers/manufacturers and we should be done with it. WASD didn't have them, that concerns me. But he didn't have the ultra high R5 either.

We're very close.

[Input Nirvana]

I don't think Costar actually makes the key caps. They just buy them for all of their keyboard lines. So still looking for the source for the keys. Kinesis confirmed that none of their keys are custom to the Advantage...that means the keys exist normally out in the wild

This is a thread on Qtans vendor forum to see about replacement PBT key caps, you can monitor for when the info is available:
http://geekhack.org/showthread.php?29875-Blank-PBT-key-caps-for-Kinesis-Advantage-(Cherry-MX)

Color layout concepts:
I have my all black keyboard idea with no legends...just as Boli did his, but I also I had thought of making my black Kinesis match my iMac (aluminum and black).
One idea was to use gray keys like Boli did (but with 8 red home row keys, like on the right side (Excuse the poor use of red Paintbrush):
[ Attachment Invalid Or Does Not Exist ] 47627[/ATTACH]Maybe instead of light or dark gray, the keys should be silver, or metallic.

Or maybe get the Advantage Pro with the silver top case and swap the blue for red keys:
[ Attachment Invalid Or Does Not Exist ] 47625[/ATTACH]

Or stay with the black and red theme:
[ Attachment Invalid Or Does Not Exist ] 47626[/ATTACH]

I had thought of maybe doing the 'home' thumb key as well:
[ Attachment Invalid Or Does Not Exist ] 47629[/ATTACH]

THE REAL THING
I put some red (they look oversaturated or orange in cell phone photos, but BAD ASS in real life) on one of my extra key wells...because my keyboard underneath has white doubleshots installed. This will be it, no doubt. I should have known. Bold. Masculine, Clean.

  [ Attachment Invalid Or Does Not Exist ] 47728[/ATTACH] [ Attachment Invalid Or Does Not Exist ] 47633[/ATTACH] [ Attachment Invalid Or Does Not Exist ] 47731[/ATTACH]

[rantenki]

Just thought I would add another option to the list. This is crossposted from http://geekhack.org/showthread.php?29898-Cherry-MX-keycaps-on-thingiverse so any discussion probably belongs there, but the whole reason for the project was the mismatched key heights I have on my advantage...

---snip---

Hey all, just thought I would drop a heads up that thingiverse has a keycap library that I am working on. You can take a (very early) peek here:

http://www.thingiverse.com/thing:20953

There will eventually be a full set of parametrically generated keys, I just need to get a script together that actually generates them from a spreadsheet rather than having to manually set the design parameters. It's in solidworks, btw.

Show Image

Cheers;
- Derek

p.s. The flash really added a sheen. The key doesn't stand out at all from the other keys (other than being cleaner) in person.

[Input Nirvana]

Thanks for showing and linking. I gotta learn more about this.

What can you tell us about the key? Better/worse/same? And what is the cost?

[dorkvader]

I imagine the unit cost on the key would be quite low, provided one has free access to such a machine to make one. Last I checked, polymers are cheap.

[Input Nirvana]

Where are such things, and where/what are they mostly used for?

[rantenki]

The keyboard was manufactured on my homebuilt 3d printer, using PLA plastic, which is quite hard, although a bit brittle. The surface texture is a little rough, quite pleasant to the touch. The details on the printer are in the video:

There is nearly no material, maybe a couple meters of filament tops. I am using a PLA plastic in a reprap, specifically this one:

[video=youtube_share;OuQZ-TEaSpg]http://youtu.be/OuQZ-TEaSpg[/video]

The actual material cost is probably less than a dime for the key, but the printer runs about $1k in parts.

This is all a lead up for building a new kinesis variant with adjustable split, tilt and spacing:

[Input Nirvana]

I <3 this!

I'm looking at this in detail right after lunch!

[uberben]

This is all a lead up for building a new kinesis variant with adjustable split, tilt and spacing:

Show Image

This looks awesome! I hope you plan to release all of these parts to thingiverse when you are done. I was hoping I wouldn't have to chop up my factory Kinesis case to experiment with some mods, so 3d printing a custom one would be perfect. Have you tried printing a case yet? I imagine all the weird curves and cavities would make 3D printing a bit of a challenge.

[Input Nirvana]

Two thoughts:

1) Could use this opportunity to consider a different thumb cluster alignment. I asked Hoggy on Deskthority to post comparative pics of Kinesis and Maltron...very interesting. I can post link here if there is any interest.

2) Options of having the wristrest like on the original Kinesis? I think it may be mandatory since the keywells are 3D.

[rantenki]

There is going to be a wristrest, but it is going to be part of the base, with a contoured piece of gel silicone. I haven't measured it out yet, but once I finish the bottom layer and mounting design, I can carve some more out of the top shell to make room for it. Believe it or not, the new design already sits significantly lower to the table than the existing Kinesis shell. I never understood why the edge of the kinesis was so proud of the desk, but I guess it is to get the keywellss below palm level. The problem is that (for us big guys at least) some of the palm sits off the edge, and you get a sharp keyboard edge against the wrist joint :\

[Input Nirvana]

Interesting. I look forward to seeing this

If you have a dedicated thread/website for this, I'd like to have a 'Kinesis Reimagined' mod-heading in my Everything Kinesis Advantage wiki that is currently getting redone. A couple pics and a small write-up, then linking to your website or thread.

Let me know if that could happen in the future.

[rantenki]

OTT?

http://www.thingiverse.com/thing:20953

[Icarium]

Nice. Now I want myself such a printer. Where did you find the time to make this thing??

[rantenki]

The keys were actually about an hour of work each, plus another 20 minutes or so to print. I throw together little things like this on my lunch breaks all the time.

As for the more over-reaching project of the keyboard case, I do expect to have the casing done in a couple of weeks, as work is a bit hectic til the end of the month. I haven't printed the case yet, but there won't be any difficulties. I have integrated snap-off supports in the design, so it prints standing up on it's end, and none of the overhangs are enough to cause problems.