kinesis advantage keycap replacement limitations

[Icarium]

Can you make me a little Cthulu?

I should totally build a 3D printer. I wish any of my friends were only remotely interested in something like that. Doing it completely on my own is just too much alone time. :/

[Input Nirvana]

Alone time is when the magic happens

I can't get the video to load to see what's required. If this is something that the community would want a bunch of stuff from, I may be in a position to make one in several months.

[rantenki]

I have had quite a few PMs about custom keys. The printer isn't really a money making proposition for me at this time, and I bill out my engineering services at a rate that would make me look like a jerk for just keycaps, so I won't be doing them for sale. Sorry all. The design is up on thingiverse though, so anybody with a printer can make some.

http://www.thingiverse.com/thing:20953

[Input Nirvana]

Building the printer about $1,000.

The software??

Able to make it do wood key caps?

I want to possibly replace my Kinesis keys with wood, and have them match existing profiles/shapes? This is a software issue, correct?

[wasdkeyboards]

Those 3D printers use plastic only. It doesn't cut it out, it "builds" it. You'd want to make your own CNC machine if you want wood.

But, you guys might want to check out this high-res 3D printer: http://www.indiegogo.com/veloso3dprinter

[net2522]

http://printrbot.com/

[Input Nirvana]

It's a fun thought, but I'll back down. Takes more of a man to jump into that arena.

Meh

[uberben]

I imagine a CNC mill could make the caps out of wood, but the stem would probably be a challenge. You could probably use the 3d printer to make some stand alone stems that could slip into a small notch in the wooden cap made by the mill, then glue it in place. If I get access to a CNC mill and 3D printer (which is actually kind of likely) I may have to try this.

Also, 3D printing services like Ponoko and Shapeways can 3d print some interesting materials such as steel, glass, and multi-coloured ceramic. Those materials would be less flexible, so the stems might need to me more carefully designed so they fit perfectly. Alternatively, you could print the stems in plastic separately and then glue them in, much like my wood cap suggestion.

[Icarium]

https://hannover.ccc.de/redmine/attachments/download/2

I hope this link works.
That's not my work btw. Sadly!

[rantenki]

I have a couple of CNC machines as well, and cutting wooden keys is pretty trivial, but the stem requires a VERY small endmill (1mm), which is slow, and fragile. 3d printing is a lot quicker and easier to set up, although the cnc would probably be faster.
The best method would probably be to make an aluminum mold blank for each of the bottoms, then tops that are interchangable for the keys. I may get around to that but I really want to get a new keyboard case built up first so that I can split my kinesis.

[erw]

Hey, I've been out of the loop for a while. Just handed in my thesis :yo:

How's progress on the non-SP tall keys? :pizza:

[Input Nirvana]

You've been gone quite a while...I figured you took a trip to the South Pacific and hooked up with a native girl

We've been trying to get 2 options:
1) SP keys (available in ABS or PBT)....these are available.
2) Taller non-SP keys (in either ABS and PBT)....I had several sources that confirmed they could not do all the keys, was waiting for a couple more answers....then I had some serious life issues cropped up the 3rd week of April that brought almost everything to an absolute stop

Kinesis has a few sets they found of ABS BLACK with BLUE home row keys that are taller without labels (blank) for $40. If I could afford it, I would buy one set, but it's not a prudent purchase for me at this time. I'm in debt.

My bigger desire is to get keys in PBT and hopefully that are taller than the SP keys. But, if not available, I'll settle for the shorter SP keys made of PBT. The only drawback is that the key set pricing in ABS or PBT is very expensive unless you buy many sets.

I may be able to get involved again to try and source the taller keys (we know they are made in ABS) and maybe even PBT...our keyboards and fingers deserve it. But I don't know when I'll be able to do this, maybe towards the end of the year, so if someone wants to pick up where it's been left off....go for it.

[erw]

You've been gone quite a while...I figured you took a trip to the South Pacific and hooked up with a native girl

We've been trying to get 2 options:
1) SP keys (available in ABS or PBT)....these are available.
2) Taller non-SP keys (in either ABS and PBT)....I had several sources that confirmed they could not do all the keys, was waiting for a couple more answers....then I had some serious life issues cropped up the 3rd week of April that brought almost everything to an absolute stop

Sorry to hear, man. I hope things are better :hug:

Kinesis has a few sets they found of ABS BLACK with BLUE home row keys that are taller without labels (blank) for $40. If I could afford it, I would buy one set, but it's not a prudent purchase for me at this time. I'm in debt.

My bigger desire is to get keys in PBT and hopefully that are taller than the SP keys. But, if not available, I'll settle for the shorter SP keys made of PBT. The only drawback is that the key set pricing in ABS or PBT is very expensive unless you buy many sets.

I may be able to get involved again to try and source the taller keys (we know they are made in ABS) and maybe even PBT...our keyboards and fingers deserve it. But I don't know when I'll be able to do this, maybe towards the end of the year, so if someone wants to pick up where it's been left off....go for it.

But do you think Weyman from WASDkeyboards would even laser key caps we bought from somewhere else? Last I heard he wouldn't do it because of "could be lost during shipment" concerns. Also since he'll be offering PBT keys in a few months he might tell us to wait... (he has not replied to my last few mails so I'm not even trying to ask).

I see WASD is not planning PBT in the near future:

Frequently requested, but not planned
- PBT (currently unable to find a manufacturer with a reasonable price)

so maybe he would how be willing to order, say, 50 sets at $28.75 from SP, and then laser them? But I guess they all have to be the same color, then.

[Input Nirvana]

I'll try to get up to speed on this topic again. I can't believe this, but I've forgotten what happened and what the status was. I will do this soon.

I think I was unable to find all of the 'taller' keys in ABS. Kinesis buys them from a broker in Taiwan...not direct from a manufacturer.

I contacted 2 people on GH about 'taller' PBT, one can't supply all the keys, the other didn't follow up after a couple messages...my guess is they can't do it either.

Boli participated in group buy 4, which I've always been confused with...it's a combination of group buy 3 and 4....? Supposedly 7bit said the keys were going to be blank doubleshots....? I think Boli was going to verify at some point...but I don't think he has gotten them yet? That deal is a mystery to me.

BOTTOM LINE FOR BLANKS AT THIS TIME:
-ABS short-available from SP
-PBT short-available from SP
-ABS tall-we know they are made, don't know who (a few sets are available from Kinesis for $40)
-PBT tall-we don't know they are all made.
-DOUBLESHOT ABS-allegedly available

[boli]

The group buy 4 stuff wasn't shipped yet, but those blanks (1.25 unit wide key caps for the outer edges of the Kinesis Advantage) are very expensive because of the low volume: $4 for the number row and $3 for other rows, each! (so $26 for just 8 key caps)

BTW all of the group buy round 4 key caps are from SP, and SP doesn't make double shot blanks.

If I wanted a blank set I'd buy one of the few Kinesis set left (and recommend everyone who'd like blanks to get one while it lasts), can't beat the price and perfect fit.

Alas, I'm hooked to custom lasered key caps by now, so I'm waiting for PBT keys from WASD, whenever that may happen. In the mean time stuff like Diablo 3 and R/C helis keep spare time at a minimum.

[Input Nirvana]

AHA! Thanks for that crucial info Boli!

Still didn't ship? The longest group buy in history? LOL
NO doubleshot blanks.
Keys from SP so they will be the shorter keys (if black, it doesn't really matter since you see between the keys less).

Thanks for the insight/info.

Yes, I'm so tempted to get a set of blanks, it's just so easy, so affordable.
1) just a bad time for me to spend even $40 (I sort of want 2 sets so $80 if I was so bold)
2) really want PBT

[dorkvader]

NO doubleshot blanks.

Wanting Doubleshot blank keycaps is kind of a joke, as there is no practical difference to a normal blank keycap (except the underside has the potential to be a different colour) and it is considerably more expensive to produce them. As far as I know, they only exist on keyboards that had all doubleshot keys and one blank one (where it kind of makes sense) and possibly devlin.

So, I only want some doubleshot blanks for the extreme irony of it. In my opinion, it's not a big deal.

[Input Nirvana]

I agree. I didn't WANT doubleshot blanks, but was told that was part of a group buy.

It's now a dead issue.

[erw]

I just ordered a full replacement set from WASD with my Danish Colemak layout and a bold retro look. Can't wait to get it!!

[iMav]

I just ordered a full replacement set from WASD with my Danish Colemak layout and a bold retro look. Can't wait to get it!!

WASD sells a complete Kinesis Advantage keycap set?

[erw]

WASD sells a complete Kinesis Advantage keycap set?

No (not yet :-)

I used the replacements discussed in this thread: http://geekhack.org/showthread.php?23446-kinesis-advantage-keycap-replacement-limitations&p=477340&viewfull=1#post477340

Specifically, all eight 1x1.25 side keys are R1 (instead of three R2 and one R4), the eight home keys are R2 (instead of sphericals), and -- the only actual issue -- the four modifiers are R4 instead of the fabled R5 which has recently turned out to not be a custom Kinesis creation, it's just that WASD doesn't have it.

[Input Nirvana]

No (not yet :-)

I used the replacements discussed in this thread: http://geekhack.org/showthread.php?23446-kinesis-advantage-keycap-replacement-limitations&p=477340&viewfull=1#post477340

Specifically, all eight 1x1.25 side keys are R1 (instead of three R2 and one R4), the eight home keys are R2 (instead of sphericals), and -- the only actual issue -- the four modifiers are R4 instead of the fabled R5 which has recently turned out to not be a custom Kinesis creation, it's just that WASD doesn't have it.

Correctamundo...it's been a complicated process so far.
Eventually, we'll get another source for PBT or custom caps.

[boli]

Sorry to bring this up again, but I don't think we have this info yet.

I bought a few DCS row 5 black key caps from Signature Plastics for my 3 Kinesis keyboards as well as the ErgoDox (which is being assembled by TheProfosist - I had opportunity to try out my friend's ErgoDox though).

SP still have some of those keys in their ABS DCS inventory (no PBT ones unfortunately), which you can order here if you are interested.

When mounted on the keyboard they are a bit less high than the originals, maybe half a millimeter. Their skirt is about a full millimeter shorter than the skirt of the original keys, but their skirt is flush with the stem - unlike the originals, where the stem is a little bit recessed.

At least the keys are a bit higher than the original second highest keys (orange in this picture), and as such they seem to work out OK. Not perfect, but the best replacement I've used so far.


Compared to the DSA keys that came with the ErgoDox they are a godsend. I hope the DCS keys for the ErgoDox will be better, but nobody could tell me what profiles they were, so we'll see...

[Input Nirvana]

Yo Boli!

Just a quick note....remember we had noted there were 2 types of Kinesis keycaps...the original white, doubleshot key caps that are shorter and with shorter skirts about flush with the stem. Then the newer, single shot that are taller and taller skirts with the stems recessed a bit. We also noted that the original doubleshots sat lower on the keyboard than the newer singleshots but maintained the same profiles. And, as a last item, the profiles stayed the same for all keycaps EXCEPT there was a minor difference with the 2 bottom rows of the key wells that later Kinesis used the same R4 key caps for both rows.

Does this assist with anything? I'm typing this from memory...

I really want to work on the Everything Kinesis article and adding the pics since they are so relevant...but I don't have access to it....

Gonna swing by the GH meet up this weekend!!!!

[uberben]

Hey IN!

I'd love to see that article fixed up too. Any chance you could send me the pics in the mean time? It is such a good collection and I'd hate to see it disappear. I'd love to help you fix up the article too, if I can.

[Input Nirvana]

Yo! UB! WHAAASSSUUUPPPPP!!!

I'm going by the GH meetup tomorrow and will see Mkawa. Soarer send me several emails with all the pics, I'll start looking fir them this weekend, I hope they didn't get lost with my stalker problem last year, but I bet Soarer still has them in the event I come up dry. I have located a few more that are relevant as well. I'll see what I can do.

As you may remember, we wanted to clean out the crap (I didn't intend to have it grow to what it ultimately became), reconfigure everything in a wiki-type format for ease of use...but I don't know if that's still an option with whatever formats GH uses. Can you tell I haven't been around much?

One big issue was adding in the info, contacts, links for some of the alternate mainboards that had been cropping up, and some of the talented people I had found that did some amazing work.

[Input Nirvana]

Attention:
After all my huffing and puffing about blank keycaps, preferably of PBT...I have found something today that will be far more awesome. I saw it at the GH meetup in Silicon Valley.

Option #1 I just saw this key in real life, and it looks at least 10 times better than the pic. The white is really white, and the 'geekhack' is a cool orange translucent polycarbonate. I want black keys with Klingon alphabet in either the same dark orange or red translucent polycarbonate. Will need to add backlighting to the Kinesis keyboard cherry switches. Beyond effing cool!



Option #2 The original idea to have the black key caps out of PBT, maybe with the 8 home row keys in red. I'm not nearly as excited about this anymore...