Author Topic: Dvorak: [F]-Key Position  (Read 2092 times)

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Offline pyro

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Dvorak: [F]-Key Position
« on: Sun, 30 October 2011, 10:29:06 »
Update [06/12/2011]
I have to revoke everything that follows. Just switched back to original simplified Dvorak with u-i and q-z swapped and typing feels much more fluent again. Except for the shift keys. Their position (red crosses) is convenient as ever.

-----------------------

I switched [ . ], [ Q ], and [ F ] counterclockwise and find this to be quite convenient.

Like this:

(screenshot from http://patorjk.com/keyboard-layout-analyzer/)

I also mapped Shift keys to the keys marked with the red Xs to allow for a more convenient, outwards arm-posture on regular keyboards, which incidentally fixed the L-position for me.

With [ . ], [ Q ], and [ F ] remapped you don't need to stretch your hand to reach the old F position that often anymore (and you gain vocal+F digraphs on the downside of same-finger EF (like in "effort") (which is less common than OF)).

It takes some getting used to, but it feels right.
« Last Edit: Mon, 05 December 2011, 17:25:50 by pyro »

Offline Playtrumpet

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Dvorak: [F]-Key Position
« Reply #1 on: Sun, 30 October 2011, 11:20:47 »
I noticed you also switched the I and U around (integrating "weak-pinky Dvorak" into the layout). You might want run the layouts through this to compare base, stroke and penalties. This layout does make base (distance) a bit lower, so I'm just wondering how it fairs in stroke ease and penalty. Hopefully the program gives you these kind of stats.

All in all it looks like a good optimization of Dvorak. A few things - The feel of reaching to the bottom row for '.' is probably my most iffy concern. It also makes quotations ending in periods slightly more of a reach -> ."  You already mentioned the creation of the single-finger 'ef/fe' digraph. Other than those the changes are small.

Where do the ?/ and Tab go?
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Offline cactux

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Dvorak: [F]-Key Position
« Reply #2 on: Sun, 30 October 2011, 14:46:20 »
plz go ahead and post your new layout. I hate the F position is way to far
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Offline dorkvader

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Dvorak: [F]-Key Position
« Reply #3 on: Mon, 31 October 2011, 00:49:21 »
Hmm, I was thinking that making a wide Dvorak layout would be useful, too. Other than Capewell-Dvorak, are there any other Dvorak-optimizations? I don't like capewell-dvorak, because the bottom row starts out with ZXCV, and I don't think common shortcuts are a good reason to place letters in a layout.

I looked into swapping I and U, but I don't get how it's "weak pinky" as it only changes the frequency that the left forefinger moves.
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Offline Playtrumpet

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Dvorak: [F]-Key Position
« Reply #4 on: Mon, 31 October 2011, 16:59:23 »
I should clarify. "Weak-pinky" Dvorak is something this guy came up with where he eliminated Right Shift use, made Q into Left Shift, Caps Lock into Backspace and switched I and U. Simply changing I and U doesn't really affect the pinky. I'm still not sure how much difference it makes, but I'm that letter switch lowers the base value (travel). Not certain what can be said about stroke and penalty efforts.

Has anyone experimented with switching Q where Z is (in this new layout)? I always found Z to be surprisingly easy to type with my right pinky, probably because my right pinky is so adept at typing L. It feels much better than Q on the left middle finger, and this way Z and X are in the most reaching positions.

edit: tried it in this layout analyzer - it slightly reduces base which I suspected.
« Last Edit: Mon, 31 October 2011, 17:05:10 by Playtrumpet »
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Offline pyro

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Dvorak: [F]-Key Position
« Reply #5 on: Tue, 01 November 2011, 14:09:00 »
? can still by typed by holding LShift and pressing RShift (former /)
/ and tab require a modifier key

I used Autohotkey in Windows and Xmodmap in Linux to switch keys, so unfortunately I can't just post a layout-file. In Linux you'd have to create a file called .xmodmap in your ~/ directory with these contents:

Code: [Select]
keycode 26 = f F
keycode 53 = period greater
keycode 29 = q Q

Logout and back in. You should be asked whether .xmodmap should be loaded on startup, after which you're done.
You can use xev to figure out other keycodes.

---

I've installed carpalx (since I do have interest in a fully optimized top-row-punctuation layout, maybe I'll take a shot at that sometime) and run several layouts through its evaluation. I'll just post base, penalty and stroke (what the hell is stroke?) values.

Let's start with qwerty
Code: [Select]
b                       1.000  33.3  33.3
p                       1.000  33.3 200.0
s                       1.000  33.3 100.
all                     3.000 100.0 100.0

now for the comparisons, Dvorak regular, lesser is better
Code: [Select]
b                       0.397  18.9  18.9
p                       0.937  44.7 142.3
s                       0.765  36.4 100.0
all                     2.098 100.0 100.0

Dvorak .fq switched
Code: [Select]
b                       0.384  18.5  18.5
p                       0.935  44.9 141.1
s                       0.762  36.6 100.0
all                     2.081 100.0 100.0

Dvorak .fqui switched
Code: [Select]
b                       0.333  16.4  16.4
p                       0.935  46.1 135.6
s                       0.762  37.5 100.0
all                     2.030 100.0 100.0

Dvorak .fqui switched and ,. switched afterwards (= period on top row)
Code: [Select]
b                       0.333  16.4  16.4
p                       0.935  46.1 135.6
s                       0.762  37.5 100.0
all                     2.030 100.0 100.0

Piro's version
Code: [Select]
b                       0.332  16.7  16.7
p                       0.885  44.5 137.5
s                       0.770  38.7 100.0
all                     1.987 100.0 100.0

Colemak
Code: [Select]
b                       0.344  18.7  18.7
p                       0.763  41.4 145.1
s                       0.735  39.9 100.0
all                     1.842 100.0 100.0

Carpalx' Best (QGMLWB)
Code: [Select]
b                       0.382  22.9  22.9
p                       0.570  34.2 166.9
s                       0.716  42.9 100.0
all                     1.668 100.0 100.0

Don't forget the algorithm assumes you spend your days retyping books.
I've included Colemak and Carpalx' Best for better comparison. If you want comment on these, please start another thread.

tl;dr
Switching .fq is not worse and it doesn't matter whether comma or period are on the qwerty-w-position.
« Last Edit: Wed, 11 January 2012, 12:24:17 by pyro »

Offline Piro

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Dvorak: [F]-Key Position
« Reply #6 on: Wed, 11 January 2012, 08:39:46 »
F is the thing that bothers me the most about Dvorak, which is funny, because a lot of people complain about L.

I've been toying with the idea of attempting to optimise the layout, based on a few flaws. I changed more than this to begin with, but started to move things back where there would be no clear benefit. For example, I don't think fixing zxcv is worthwhile, but having ZXCV in reach of Ctrl with one hand is probably a useful thing to have. V and Z are already very close to right ctrl, so I don't consider them an issue. Capewell switches a and o, but that seems a small change for a tiny benefit. I didn't want to start a thread on it just because I hadn't done any real analysis.

', . p y j f l r g
a o e i u d h t n s
q x c k ; b m w v z


Come to think of it, I could swap q and j. Originally I intended \ to be where J is, and put J on \ (ISO 105-key, next to left shift).

Offline dorkvader

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Dvorak: [F]-Key Position
« Reply #7 on: Wed, 11 January 2012, 09:28:29 »
I dunno, I don't think "C" should be on the bottom row: it's to common.
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Offline Piro

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Dvorak: [F]-Key Position
« Reply #8 on: Wed, 11 January 2012, 09:50:07 »
I can see that is a sticking point, but I actually find that specific key easy to press; easier than the location of K. Far too easy for J to live there.. Could just be the size of my fingers.
Workman also agrees that the keys on the bottom row used by the index fingers are easy to press, so I think it bears thinking about, as opposed to dismissing it due to QWERTY similarity.

As Dvorak users, we are used to the idea that the bottom row is basically never used, but it does bring about problems, such as the stretch to f. I think that certain keys on the bottom row are acceptable.


Edit: haha, I noticed my username is close to the starter of the thread. Oops, that was not intentional...

Offline pyro

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Dvorak: [F]-Key Position
« Reply #9 on: Wed, 11 January 2012, 11:33:37 »
BL/LB is quite common and would be on the same finger in your layout and also involves jumping over the home row.
I relearned to only ever use left shift (mapped to capslock), which pretty much fixed F and L for me.

I'll attach a letter frequency table (I think it's composed from Pride and Prejudice). You can search that file to find how often one particular combination occured in the text, where the centered number is the sum of both directions of reading (BL and LB f.i.), if you want to sink some time into trying to improve Dvorak.

Offline Piro

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Dvorak: [F]-Key Position
« Reply #10 on: Wed, 11 January 2012, 11:38:10 »
B is where it is currently on Dvorak, right index finger, and L is in the position where C currently is, so your right middle finger, so it's not as you imagine.

I had an image but it wouldn't let me post images, and I guess the layout is harder to read in text format. Thanks for the text file, though!

Edit: It seems to allow me now..



My basic idea is to change as little of Dvorak as possible, retaining all of the character of the layout (only C and J swap hands, and only those two swap rows), whilst fixing certain issues.

I should add that I've been typing on Dvorak for about ~12 years, so I'm well used to the design of it as it stands.
I dislike the stretch to F, and I dislike the stretch for Ctrl+X.
Maybe these are personal gripes, but I'm pretty sure anyone who uses Dvorak for this amount of time will also find this. May as well swap U and I and fix the oft-derided L position while I'm at it.

Offline pyro

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Dvorak: [F]-Key Position
« Reply #11 on: Wed, 11 January 2012, 12:03:30 »
That was pretty much all I had to criticize. I'll run it through Carpalx and post results, if you want.

Offline Piro

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Dvorak: [F]-Key Position
« Reply #12 on: Wed, 11 January 2012, 12:05:50 »
I think it would be interesting. It's only a light modification, but I like Dvorak as it is, so that was the purpose of it. Be good to see if it performs better.

Offline pyro

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Dvorak: [F]-Key Position
« Reply #13 on: Wed, 11 January 2012, 12:21:43 »
Code: [Select]
b                       0.332  16.7  16.7
p                       0.885  44.5 137.5
s                       0.770  38.7 100.0
all                     1.987 100.0 100.0


not bad.

Offline Piro

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Dvorak: [F]-Key Position
« Reply #14 on: Wed, 11 January 2012, 12:42:51 »
Well, it did result in a reduction from Dvorak effort, so that's good.

I don't intend to accidentally make the best keyboard layout according to Carpalx, since I have some questions about methods used in determining lowest effort, and really, I want the layout to remain very Dvorak-like. I'm happy with that result.

It would be nice if people were concerned about their keyboard layout as much as they were what type of switch they used, I'm sure I'd get more feedback, haha

Offline Playtrumpet

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Dvorak: [F]-Key Position
« Reply #15 on: Wed, 11 January 2012, 13:58:31 »
I wish that too, haha.

Something I noticed is that the 'EXP' trigram isn't the most fluid thing to type and I use my middle finger to type the P rather than the index. Even then, that causes P to E to be a same finger stroke. There are tons of little things that seem like they could be improved but they always seem to create new odd/troubling strokes.

My hope is that some day chording will become the common typing practice. =P
Das S Ultimate Brown | Dvorak

Offline Piro

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Dvorak: [F]-Key Position
« Reply #16 on: Fri, 13 January 2012, 07:07:16 »
My only minor concern is CK being next to each other, on the same finger.

The motion of GR, though, seems common, and feels easy. (Pinky stretch, but, as you're moving your ring finger too, it feels OK).

EXP, I use my index finger for P, so I guess I don't have that exact problem. Regular Dvorak makes you really stretch for X.
A word like "excel" isn't great, though. That said, it's still better than Dvorak for that, X isn't far, L is better. That specific example has a lot of repetition anyway.

I could switch Q and X. Q ends back up in its old place, fitting with my goals, too. But maybe the trade-off is that it is too close to that of the QWERTY shortcuts for some. Maybe you'll end up undoing when you meant to cut.

Update:

I've been revising it some more, to remove some awkward movements.



It doesn't address your 'EXP' problem, because I don't personally have it as I use my index finger to hit P. I wanted to address CK being next to each other though, since that's too common to be on the same hand.
Tossing Z into what I think is the worst place to press on the keyboard is a good move, even though it makes Ctrl+Z ridiculously hard to do with one hand, you'll just have to use two hands for it.
J ends up one over from where it is now, and K moves to where Z was, which I think is actually a very easy key to press for wasting Z on.

Edit: Ahh, I just realised something important. American English uses Z quite a lot. I'm English, and British English does not. Then again, that's where F used to be, and F is not exactly uncommon.

Offline Piro

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Dvorak: [F]-Key Position
« Reply #17 on: Sun, 15 January 2012, 07:40:28 »
I've been revising it some more, to remove some awkward movements.



It doesn't address your 'EXP' problem, because I don't personally have it as I use my index finger to hit P. I wanted to address CK being next to each other though, since that's too common to be on the same hand.
Tossing Z into what I think is the worst place to press on the keyboard is a good move, even though it makes Ctrl+Z ridiculously hard to do with one hand, you'll just have to use two hands for it.
J ends up one over from where it is now, and K moves to where Z was, which I think is actually a very easy key to press for wasting Z on.

Edit: Ahh, I just realised something important. American English uses Z quite a lot. I'm English, and British English does not. Then again, that's where F used to be, and F is not exactly uncommon.

Offline Icarium

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Dvorak: [F]-Key Position
« Reply #18 on: Tue, 17 January 2012, 14:06:53 »
carpalx....need to check that out
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