Author Topic: Next GH-brewed KB design - 'The Light' (open for discussion)  (Read 108707 times)

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Offline __red__

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Re: Next GH-brewed KB design - 'The Light' (open for discussion)
« Reply #700 on: Fri, 17 August 2012, 16:58:45 »
Hey guys, I finally got my account back.  Glad you found the AS1130.

"Charlieplexing" is the term used for driving LED matrices like that.  Each line has to be able to be either Vcc, GND or high impedance.  It's that third state that makes it possible to cross the streams as it were.

Last week I took a stab at writing a charlieplexing driver in PASM because I couldn't find availability for the AS1130.  Getting the charlieplexing to work was easy... mixing that with PWM was challenging.

Offline mkawa

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Re: Next GH-brewed KB design - 'The Light' (open for discussion)
« Reply #701 on: Sat, 18 August 2012, 09:23:43 »
yay red. welcome back. i had no idea you were having trouble with your account. have someone shoot me a message if it happens again for any reason.

i'm not sure what this means:

Quote
high impedance.  It's that third state that makes it possible to cross the streams as it were.
can you explain in terms appropriate for a dumb programmer?

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Offline __red__

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Re: Next GH-brewed KB design - 'The Light' (open for discussion)
« Reply #702 on: Sun, 19 August 2012, 12:28:23 »


The term "high impedience" in this context simply means "disconnected".  Disconnected is NOT the same as 0V.  With microprocessors (with the propeller at least), if you set the I/O port to be input, it effectively disconnects it from your matrix.

So, Just paying attention to the 3x3 matrix in the above diddygram.  A truthtable would look something like this:

Diode#  1   2   3
D1         0   1   X
D2         1   0   X
D3         1   X   0

D13       0   X   1
D14       X   0   1
D15       X   1   0


Where 1 = true, 0 = 0v, and X is disconnected (Input).

With some cleverness you can get multiple LEDs to light at once, but if you don't fully understand the design you can end up with "Ghosting" in much the same way as you get ghosting on keyboards without diodes.
« Last Edit: Sun, 19 August 2012, 12:42:30 by __red__ »

Offline mkawa

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Re: Next GH-brewed KB design - 'The Light' (open for discussion)
« Reply #703 on: Sun, 19 August 2012, 12:52:36 »
ooooh, so input pins can be effectively read as don't cares?

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Offline __red__

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Re: Next GH-brewed KB design - 'The Light' (open for discussion)
« Reply #704 on: Sun, 19 August 2012, 13:36:33 »
* matrixonly.dip (136.72 kB - downloaded 178 times.)
ooooh, so input pins can be effectively read as don't cares?

Right.   Shiny huh? :-)

I learned this lesson the hard way when I built my first keyboard.  I didn't include any pull-up or pull-down resistors because I assumed that if I put 5V on one side of the switch and my input pin on the other side then closed would mean 1 and not connected would be 0.  Heh, nope ;-)

Since you posted I just designed a PCB which you can plug directly into a breadboard for experimentation:

2424-1

Source here: * matrixonly.dip (136.72 kB - downloaded 178 times.)
www.diptrace.com for the software to view it.

Gerbers Here: * GHLED-20120819.zip (22.87 kB - downloaded 176 times.)

The Gerbers are in the format that the Chinese PCB fabber iteadstudio.com accepts.  It's in that format because I'm about to order it from them.

If you want to follow on at home, buy the "10x10cm 2 layer" PCB fab from them and EMail them that .zip file.  You'll have 10 of the boards in your grubby little hands in 3-4 weeks. (Unless you pay for DHL at which point you'll get it in 8 days).

Alternatively, since I'll have 10 of the lil buggers - if anyone wants one and you'll actually use it, PM me.
« Last Edit: Sun, 19 August 2012, 13:59:32 by __red__ »

Offline mkawa

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Re: Next GH-brewed KB design - 'The Light' (open for discussion)
« Reply #705 on: Sun, 19 August 2012, 14:35:18 »
alaric wants a couple :D

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Offline alaricljs

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Re: Next GH-brewed KB design - 'The Light' (open for discussion)
« Reply #706 on: Sun, 19 August 2012, 15:09:08 »
Dude ^^^ I have a set of 3 of those purple things in my hands, in fact I soldered LEDs and the AS1130 on 1 set already. 
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Offline __red__

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Re: Next GH-brewed KB design - 'The Light' (open for discussion)
« Reply #707 on: Sun, 19 August 2012, 17:54:44 »
In the interests of full disclosure I'm designing a badge for a Hacker Conference and I'm thinking of building a matrix like that out of 0805 or 1206 SMD LEDs. I just replaced the SMD LEDS with through-hole and rendered the PCB in case anyone wanted it.

Prototyping with Through-hole is easier than SMD ;-)

Offline __red__

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Re: Next GH-brewed KB design - 'The Light' (open for discussion)
« Reply #708 on: Mon, 10 September 2012, 21:19:08 »
Prototype received, built and tested.

Next up, building a charlieplexing object for the processor.

that's 9 pins to control 64 LEDs.
« Last Edit: Mon, 10 September 2012, 21:28:02 by __red__ »

Offline TheProfosist

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Re: Next GH-brewed KB design - 'The Light' (open for discussion)
« Reply #709 on: Sun, 04 November 2012, 01:57:36 »
This keyboard ever going to happen i was hoping for a big glowing tank.

Offline Findecanor

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Re: Next GH-brewed KB design - 'The Light' (open for discussion)
« Reply #710 on: Tue, 04 June 2013, 16:40:14 »
What happened to this project?

Offline The_Ed

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Re: Next GH-brewed KB design - 'The Light' (open for discussion)
« Reply #711 on: Tue, 04 June 2013, 21:02:08 »
Korean customs that have LED control happened. This is dead...
Reaper "frelled" me... Twice... Did he "frell" you too?... *brohug*
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Offline alaricljs

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Re: Next GH-brewed KB design - 'The Light' (open for discussion)
« Reply #712 on: Tue, 04 June 2013, 21:11:23 »
It's not dead... I'm not impressed with what's been produced DIY as yet.  On the other hand I have a lot of things on my plate and pretty much need to learn everything from the ground up.

Now if anyone else wants to help?  :)


In fact that avi over there <----- is a matrix LED controller
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Offline samwisekoi

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Re: Next GH-brewed KB design - 'The Light' (open for discussion)
« Reply #713 on: Tue, 04 June 2013, 21:44:17 »
I have learned enough about LED control to dislike it, but am about to include it in the Beta build of the GH75, and was just going to do row-level control AT BEST.

However, if 'charlieplexing' provides better control without doubling the dang keyboard matrix, then I might be interested.

Is there a model where the keyboard controller can communicate over a couple of lines to an LED controller that then controls the 96 actual LEDs using something like 10 lines?

 - Ron I samwisekoi
I like keyboards and case modding.  Everything about a computer should be silent -- except the KEYBOARD!

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Offline alaricljs

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Re: Next GH-brewed KB design - 'The Light' (open for discussion)
« Reply #714 on: Tue, 04 June 2013, 21:57:55 »
The controller in my avi is an AS1130 from austria microsystems.  It uses a 12x11 matrix to control 132 LEDs and you control it via I2C.  It has 8bit PWM on every LED and a bunch of other neat features.
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Offline samwisekoi

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Re: Next GH-brewed KB design - 'The Light' (open for discussion)
« Reply #715 on: Tue, 04 June 2013, 22:04:27 »
The controller in my avi is an AS1130 from austria microsystems.  It uses a 12x11 matrix to control 132 LEDs and you control it via I2C.  It has 8bit PWM on every LED and a bunch of other neat features.

Yes, that is a channel count I was trying to avoid.
I like keyboards and case modding.  Everything about a computer should be silent -- except the KEYBOARD!

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Offline mkawa

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Re: Next GH-brewed KB design - 'The Light' (open for discussion)
« Reply #716 on: Tue, 04 June 2013, 23:07:16 »
the USB3 spec allows you to ask for like 1.5A of current. when you actually pull the 1.5A, you have to cut data transmission, but i'm sure there are tons of ways to game this, including but not limited to charging a big electrolytic during data idle..

think it's worth looking at this. right now the nastiest thing is that none of the common dev platforms support support usb3 ootb, but i2c with a usb3 phy is definitely an option with any arm or atmel mcu
« Last Edit: Tue, 04 June 2013, 23:08:55 by mkawa »

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Offline alaricljs

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Re: Next GH-brewed KB design - 'The Light' (open for discussion)
« Reply #717 on: Tue, 04 June 2013, 23:09:22 »
And here I was willing to settling for a software current limiter that gets raised if you jack in a stand alone PSU.
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Offline mkawa

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Re: Next GH-brewed KB design - 'The Light' (open for discussion)
« Reply #718 on: Tue, 04 June 2013, 23:11:55 »
no one's going to plug an ac adapter into their keyboard just to make it epsilon brighter. that's silly even for diy fun

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Offline alaricljs

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Re: Next GH-brewed KB design - 'The Light' (open for discussion)
« Reply #719 on: Tue, 04 June 2013, 23:14:45 »
Yeah, but it would also allow you to tell the firmware to sink all it wants in the case of crazy USB2 mobos like Gigabyte and their 1.5+ Amp USB2 ports.
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Offline OldDataHands

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Re: Next GH-brewed KB design - 'The Light' (open for discussion)
« Reply #720 on: Tue, 04 June 2013, 23:16:25 »
Yes, that is a channel count I was trying to avoid.

12 pins to control up to 132 LEDs, and 2 pins for I2C comms is too much?
Isn't that a small miracle of efficient pin usage?

Offline alaricljs

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Re: Next GH-brewed KB design - 'The Light' (open for discussion)
« Reply #721 on: Tue, 04 June 2013, 23:18:19 »
It's not 12 pins, my breakout is only using a subset in order for me to learn it.  It's 23 pins for the LED matrix.

But still, for what it does it's not many pins.
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Offline mkawa

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Re: Next GH-brewed KB design - 'The Light' (open for discussion)
« Reply #722 on: Tue, 04 June 2013, 23:27:33 »
Yeah, but it would also allow you to tell the firmware to sink all it wants in the case of crazy USB2 mobos like Gigabyte and their 1.5+ Amp USB2 ports.
[9:14:59 PM] mkawa: http://www.usb.org/developers/devclass_docs/BCv1.2_011912.zip
[9:15:06 PM] mkawa: this is apparently the new high current spec
[9:15:48 PM] mkawa: although i will note that at the very least usb3 gives you 900ma @ 5v and you could actually generate a bunch of current by sending dummy data back and forth
[9:16:37 PM] mkawa: transmission logic level is variable for some reason.. but it goes up quite a bit when you saturate the bus
[9:16:51 PM] mkawa: like 3.6v
[9:17:43 PM] mkawa: so you can request 900ma on the 5v rail and then have a bunch of parasitic draw that's actually directly packet power to a fet somewhere..
[9:22:35 PM] mkawa: there's a forced delay of 200ms between data mode (900ma max) and charging mode (1.5A)
[9:22:52 PM] mkawa: but you can switch modes by logic request, without physical detection

the radio edit here is that you don't need a second port to pull that current. you just need to switch modes. the crazy gigabyte ports are following spec for the most part. all they're doing is extending the "charging port" spec to usb2 devices (and the specification is actually quite vague about whether usb2 devices are allowed to do it. they can if they self-identify as "superspeed devices" and the ports implement some or all of the "superspeed" spec.)

i think asus and giga do have some insane spec breaking ports now, but they're way more than 1.5A. they're like 2A+, and i think they actually ground out all the non-power rail pins when they deliver that current. the usb3 spec actually requires that all ports be fused at 5A

a couple more things:

1) charlieplexing
2) yes that austrian MCU is incredibly pin-efficient. it's quite pissy that MOQ is so high on it from the manufacturer, and it's not available via the usual sources (yet?)
« Last Edit: Tue, 04 June 2013, 23:29:20 by mkawa »

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Offline OldDataHands

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Re: Next GH-brewed KB design - 'The Light' (open for discussion)
« Reply #723 on: Tue, 04 June 2013, 23:38:07 »
It's not 12 pins, my breakout is only using a subset in order for me to learn it.  It's 23 pins for the LED matrix.

The datasheet seems to show CS0...CS11 as the "sinks and sources for 132 LEDs.",
and the device comes in 20-pin and a 28-pin packages.  Your LED test matrix uses
only the CS0-CS11 pins... What are you including in the count to get 23?

Offline alaricljs

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Re: Next GH-brewed KB design - 'The Light' (open for discussion)
« Reply #724 on: Wed, 05 June 2013, 08:42:02 »
Yeah well, late nights and I haven't touched it in ages... you're right.
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Offline samwisekoi

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Re: Next GH-brewed KB design - 'The Light' (open for discussion)
« Reply #725 on: Wed, 05 June 2013, 08:58:41 »
Yes, that is a channel count I was trying to avoid.

12 pins to control up to 132 LEDs, and 2 pins for I2C comms is too much?
Isn't that a small miracle of efficient pin usage?

Sorry, this was clarified off-line last night, but I read 'I2C' as 12 channels instead of i2c the protocol spec.

I'm going to look at this and the ON chips for the GH75 second run.

 - Ron I samwisekoi
I like keyboards and case modding.  Everything about a computer should be silent -- except the KEYBOARD!

'85 IBM F-122/Soarer Keyboard |  Leopold FC200 TKL (Browns) + GH36 Keypad (Browns/Greens) | GH-122 (Whites/Greens) with Nuclear Data Green keycaps in a Unicomp case

Offline Miek

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Re: Next GH-brewed KB design - 'The Light' (open for discussion)
« Reply #726 on: Wed, 05 June 2013, 09:12:56 »
2) yes that austrian MCU is incredibly pin-efficient. it's quite pissy that MOQ is so high on it from the manufacturer, and it's not available via the usual sources (yet?)

If sourcing the AS1130 is going to be an issue, why not just drop in a second general purpose MCU to do LED driving?

Offline SmallFry

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Re: Next GH-brewed KB design - 'The Light' (open for discussion)
« Reply #727 on: Wed, 05 June 2013, 09:15:41 »
How do the Korean boards do it? I've not looked at an A.87 or similar.

Offline alaricljs

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Re: Next GH-brewed KB design - 'The Light' (open for discussion)
« Reply #728 on: Wed, 05 June 2013, 09:31:57 »
How do the Korean boards do it? I've not looked at an A.87 or similar.

Less control.  They can't do the reactive or single LED control.

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Offline mkawa

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Re: Next GH-brewed KB design - 'The Light' (open for discussion)
« Reply #729 on: Wed, 05 June 2013, 10:09:53 »
2) yes that austrian MCU is incredibly pin-efficient. it's quite pissy that MOQ is so high on it from the manufacturer, and it's not available via the usual sources (yet?)

If sourcing the AS1130 is going to be an issue, why not just drop in a second general purpose MCU to do LED driving?
same answer as alaric. what other MCU has that many PWM channels? there are more LED controllers these days though, and this chip may have wider distribution now. the last time we looked at this was like 6 months ago.


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Offline SmallFry

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Re: Next GH-brewed KB design - 'The Light' (open for discussion)
« Reply #730 on: Wed, 05 June 2013, 10:59:35 »
How do the Korean boards do it? I've not looked at an A.87 or similar.

Less control.  They can't do the reactive or single LED control.
Aha, gotcha.

Offline mtl

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Re: Next GH-brewed KB design - 'The Light' (open for discussion)
« Reply #731 on: Thu, 01 August 2013, 21:38:51 »
Posted this over at the custom keycap thread (and not sure if it has been discussed here already), but if there is any possibility of using RGB LEDs, these 2x5x5mm LEDs may be a good fit.

Cherry switch bottoms have 4 holes that could be used for the leads, though they are tiny and may need to be widened. Modified or custom switch tops could be made to accommodate the LEDs.

Of course, it would increase PCB and controller complexity a lot!



RIP SmallFry.
« Last Edit: Thu, 01 August 2013, 21:42:17 by mtl »
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Offline mkawa

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Re: Next GH-brewed KB design - 'The Light' (open for discussion)
« Reply #732 on: Fri, 02 August 2013, 21:04:32 »
i'm kind of of the opinion now that SMT leds are the way to go for this.. but those are quite interesting. that said, not usable in a cherry housing

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Offline domoaligato

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Re: Next GH-brewed KB design - 'The Light' (open for discussion)
« Reply #733 on: Fri, 02 August 2013, 22:54:11 »
that would be because of the size right?
what about these?
https://www.sparkfun.com/products/11449

Offline alaricljs

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Re: Next GH-brewed KB design - 'The Light' (open for discussion)
« Reply #734 on: Fri, 02 August 2013, 23:03:03 »
Right size, but no control over the coloration.  2x3x4mm rectangular LEDs fit as well, but again these are 2-lead packages.
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Offline S2000Gan

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Re: Next GH-brewed KB design - 'The Light' (open for discussion)
« Reply #735 on: Tue, 06 August 2013, 22:48:06 »
I have yet to see any 3mm 4 lead RGB LEDs.

Offline FoxWolf1

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Re: Next GH-brewed KB design - 'The Light' (open for discussion)
« Reply #736 on: Thu, 08 August 2013, 09:31:15 »
It's too bad nobody here has a LETIS. Then we'd have an example of a Cherry MX keyboard with RGB LEDs to study.
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Offline tiberious726

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Re: Next GH-brewed KB design - 'The Light' (open for discussion)
« Reply #737 on: Tue, 03 September 2013, 00:09:54 »
It looks like they just route the extra leads out around of the switch. (The larger ones in on the upper right are multicoloured leds from that LETIS board)


Offline captain

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Re: Next GH-brewed KB design - 'The Light' (open for discussion)
« Reply #738 on: Wed, 18 June 2014, 18:03:28 »
How is Corsair doing their RGB LED Cherry MX boards?  We should copy their design in a TKL format, with ALL Cherry switches (Corsair screws the pooch IMHO by using rubber domes for F-keys and lesser used keys)  ALL MECH OR GTFO!  ;-)
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Offline FrostyToast

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Re: Next GH-brewed KB design - 'The Light' (open for discussion)
« Reply #739 on: Wed, 18 June 2014, 18:44:27 »
Could we just have the full-size 104 key PCB and have the option to saw off the end if we want a TKL?
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Offline mkawa

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Re: Next GH-brewed KB design - 'The Light' (open for discussion)
« Reply #740 on: Wed, 18 June 2014, 18:50:56 »
a large notched pcb was the idea. you could snap off the parts you didn't want, but the full pcb would include a TK pad, a numrow and a basic 60% as the core

this is becoming much easier to do now, as there are many more small dies for controlling lots of LEDs. that said, it's still hard to get these chips in small quantity. i have an inkling of an idea how to get access to this stuff for the community, but i'm not really sure if it will pan out.

anyway, this particular design thread is necrotic.
« Last Edit: Wed, 18 June 2014, 18:52:33 by mkawa »

to all the brilliant friends who have left us, and all the students who climb on their shoulders.