Author Topic: A Kinesis Advantage fan tries the TrulyErgonomic keyboard  (Read 10219 times)

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Offline boli

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A Kinesis Advantage fan tries the TrulyErgonomic keyboard
« on: Thu, 09 February 2012, 06:20:07 »
OK screw it, I'm sick of waiting for the TE remapping software. I installed ControllerMate on my work Mac and start using the TE right now. A work buddy will be trying out my Kinesis Advantage meanwhile, so I'm not tempted to switch back (he used to be a TypeMatrix user, and recently got a TE of his own).
Another work buddy is using my second Kinesis Advantage, I think he'll get  one of his own pretty soon. ;) At home I'll still be using my third Kinesis Advantage.

As for remapping:
- I swapped Command (in Mac mode both Ctrl become Command) with Shift on both sides so I won't have to relearn the Shift position
- Left Space is mapped to Command (must have Command thumb key)
- The above means I won't be using the original left Command (Mac mode), so I put Ctrl there (the next best thing to a thumb key I guess)
- Num row is shifted one position to the left, similar to the Kinesis (see custom layout in sig)

The last remapping made me realize something peculiar: the TE keeps the += key as the key in the top right corner, and it also keeps all the numbers at the usual position. However, the -_ key is moved all the way to the top left corner. That's an interesting choice.

That's it with remapping for now. While I can think of more stuff that I'd probably like remapped, I'd like to give some of the defaults a chance.

I don't think the TE will replace the Advantage as my favorite keyboard, but I feel it's a pretty good keyboard and deserves a trial period. I figure it might be attractive because of the slightly lower price tag, and possibly for the fact that it's not such a radically different design than the Kinesis. That said, for now I'd still recommend an Advantage if you're serious about ergonomics.
« Last Edit: Sat, 11 February 2012, 03:05:53 by boli »
Keyboard: Kinesis Ergo Advantage (two LF editions with red Cherry switches, one regular with brown switches)
Keyboard layout: basically Colemak, with some remapping to end up with my custom Kinesis Advantage layout
Typing test profiles: typeracer.com / hi-games.net / keybr.com

Offline boli

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A Kinesis Advantage fan tries the TrulyErgonomic keyboard
« Reply #1 on: Thu, 09 February 2012, 11:34:15 »
As expected the first few hours proved to be quite challenging overall. With the Shifts mapped to the location I'm used to I can type normal text quite well, see today's five races on typeracer vs a work buddy (profile in sig). Interestingly, my best race ever (99 wpm) was done on the TE today, I think it was because I was very focused (had to be, otherwise my fingers would have hit the wrong keys) and only made a single mistake in that particular text.

I am very slow when correcting mistakes, because I'm used to having backspace on the left thumb location. I do miss thumb keys in general of course, particularly the Option key, which I use together with Command to switch virtual desktops, as well as to type umlauts. Having to use the pinky feels quite cumbersome for now.

I'm starting to get used to the new Tab location, and Command + Tab works very well - I found I use this more now because switching virtual desktops isn't as comfortable as it used to be.

When typing consciously I also hit the new location of the ' key. However I also hit the very same location when I'd like to type / or ?, haven't gotten used to that quite yet. Having it on a small key in the location where Tab usually sits feels quite weird. Luckily I haven't had to type a \ or | yet. ;)

The central Enter key works quite well too, as I'm used to be able to use either thumb for Enter from my Kinesis...

Update: I received more o-rings today and put them on the TE, they feel great.
« Last Edit: Thu, 09 February 2012, 12:59:11 by boli »
Keyboard: Kinesis Ergo Advantage (two LF editions with red Cherry switches, one regular with brown switches)
Keyboard layout: basically Colemak, with some remapping to end up with my custom Kinesis Advantage layout
Typing test profiles: typeracer.com / hi-games.net / keybr.com

Offline boli

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A Kinesis Advantage fan tries the TrulyErgonomic keyboard
« Reply #2 on: Thu, 09 February 2012, 11:58:21 »
I guess adding a few pictures can't hurt...

WASD key caps and one Kinesis key cap, from left to right: R1, R2, R3, R4, Kinesis tall thumb key:
[ Attachment Invalid Or Does Not Exist ] 39884[/ATTACH]

TE key caps, from left to right: Z, A, Q, 1, F1
[ Attachment Invalid Or Does Not Exist ] 39885[/ATTACH]

Top view of these two groups:
[ Attachment Invalid Or Does Not Exist ] 39886[/ATTACH]

Top view grouped by row:
[ Attachment Invalid Or Does Not Exist ] 39887[/ATTACH]

Side view grouped by row:
[ Attachment Invalid Or Does Not Exist ] 39888[/ATTACH]

From these comparisons I'd say that WASD replacements key caps would work pretty well, with the exception of the center column and the two space bars.

No idea why I even put the Kinesis Ctrl key in the pic, clearly the top two rows (num row and F# key row) of the TE are the same shape, which match the WASD R4 pretty well.

An o-ring:
[ Attachment Invalid Or Does Not Exist ] 39889[/ATTACH]

Another o-ring. Note that the double wide keys have stabilizers, and to achieve the best effect it helps to apply o-rings to all 3 stems. I don't have enough o-rings to do this ATM.
[ Attachment Invalid Or Does Not Exist ] 39902[/ATTACH]

My hand on the TE:
[ Attachment Invalid Or Does Not Exist ] 39890[/ATTACH]
« Last Edit: Thu, 09 February 2012, 12:31:02 by boli »
Keyboard: Kinesis Ergo Advantage (two LF editions with red Cherry switches, one regular with brown switches)
Keyboard layout: basically Colemak, with some remapping to end up with my custom Kinesis Advantage layout
Typing test profiles: typeracer.com / hi-games.net / keybr.com

Offline oneproduct

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A Kinesis Advantage fan tries the TrulyErgonomic keyboard
« Reply #3 on: Thu, 09 February 2012, 11:58:41 »
I'm really more interested in having the double spacebars to put a letter there. I'm a Colemak user for the moment but I'm very curious to try some new layout optimized for having a common letter available on one of the two spacebars on a TE or Kinesis. This would "extend" the home positions and make best use of the two spacebars I think. The Maltron layout has the letter E on one of its thumb buttons but the layout is not properly optimized. I feel that having a modifier on the thumb doesn't make best use of it (unless it was shift, but that's not good because you should be using two shift for ergonomic reasons).
Filco Tenkeyless | Realforce Tenkeyless Variable Silent | Truly Ergonomic | Kinesis Contoured Advantage | IBM Model M SSK | Cherry G80-3600LYC | TG3 w/ trackpad | CM Storm QuickFire Rapid | Ergodox
Kensington Slimblade | RollerMouse Free2 | Logitech M570 | Logitech G500 | Evoluent Vertical Mouse 3
Colemak

Offline boli

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A Kinesis Advantage fan tries the TrulyErgonomic keyboard
« Reply #4 on: Thu, 09 February 2012, 12:12:52 »
For pure text typing I think that putting an extra letter on the thumb might work quite well.

However, for "normal" computer use I feel it's much more useful to use thumb keys as modifiers (other than the one used for space) or other "special" keys, particularly when there are only 3 thumb keys as on the TE. The reason I think so is that it's very easy to press a thumb key and another key at the same time, that's the beauty of thumb keys IMO.
As such, using the thumb for Shift would work pretty well too, I tried that on my Kinesis some time ago. If I had any problems with my pinkies I'd use thumb to Shift all the time, but for now I didn't feel like relearning would yield any benefit. Also I don't think the ergonomic reasons for using two Shifts even apply when using a thumb, because again you can press a thumb key without moving your hand from the home position at all.
« Last Edit: Thu, 09 February 2012, 12:18:23 by boli »
Keyboard: Kinesis Ergo Advantage (two LF editions with red Cherry switches, one regular with brown switches)
Keyboard layout: basically Colemak, with some remapping to end up with my custom Kinesis Advantage layout
Typing test profiles: typeracer.com / hi-games.net / keybr.com

Offline oneproduct

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A Kinesis Advantage fan tries the TrulyErgonomic keyboard
« Reply #5 on: Thu, 09 February 2012, 14:33:29 »
Well, trying to do left thumb + Z or right thumb + / (depending which spacebar you use for space) doesn't seem too comfortable (as with most other bottom row keys on the same hand), but I understand your point.
Filco Tenkeyless | Realforce Tenkeyless Variable Silent | Truly Ergonomic | Kinesis Contoured Advantage | IBM Model M SSK | Cherry G80-3600LYC | TG3 w/ trackpad | CM Storm QuickFire Rapid | Ergodox
Kensington Slimblade | RollerMouse Free2 | Logitech M570 | Logitech G500 | Evoluent Vertical Mouse 3
Colemak

Offline boli

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A Kinesis Advantage fan tries the TrulyErgonomic keyboard
« Reply #6 on: Thu, 09 February 2012, 16:28:40 »
I'm back home on the Kinesis Advantage :) where thumb + bottom row feels pretty comfortable, will try tomorrow on the TE.

If you do try out some layout with a letter on a thumb I'd be interested to read about your experience, this idea from the Malt layout is fascinating. :)
Keyboard: Kinesis Ergo Advantage (two LF editions with red Cherry switches, one regular with brown switches)
Keyboard layout: basically Colemak, with some remapping to end up with my custom Kinesis Advantage layout
Typing test profiles: typeracer.com / hi-games.net / keybr.com

Offline boli

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A Kinesis Advantage fan tries the TrulyErgonomic keyboard
« Reply #7 on: Fri, 10 February 2012, 06:28:31 »
Here are a couple of quick updates:

Left Space + left bottom row feels pretty OK to me on the TE as well (a little less comfortable than on the Advantage).

I had to reconnect the TE to my Mac Pro after restarting the computer, otherwise I'd get no signal out of it (4 out of 5 times).

I noticed that my remappings aren't effective in the login screen - damn number(s) in the password ;) This is one of the reasons I wanted to wait for firmware remapping...

This morning at home on the Kinesis I noticed I pressed the / key when I meant to press the ', so it looks like I'm adapting already. ;) However because I don't really use the key to the right of ; (TE default is right Shift) I moved the '" there (as on a normal keyboard) and use the key below ; for '" (also as on a normal keyboard). No need to relearn when it's not necessary, the Tab, Backspace, \| and Enter are enough to get used to. ;)

Remapping ideas I'm toying with: using the central Enter key as Command (reachable by both thumbs), using the left Space as Backspace, and the Backspace as Enter.
I tried this out quickly and reverted back after a few minutes. While I sure could use an easily "thumbable" Backspace at the moment, the goal is to make as few mistakes as possible, so giving Backspace the "best" spot on the keyboard would be kind of a waste. This is why I'm staying with an easily "thumbable" Command and Enter for now, because they will make sense in the long run.
« Last Edit: Sat, 11 February 2012, 03:25:55 by boli »
Keyboard: Kinesis Ergo Advantage (two LF editions with red Cherry switches, one regular with brown switches)
Keyboard layout: basically Colemak, with some remapping to end up with my custom Kinesis Advantage layout
Typing test profiles: typeracer.com / hi-games.net / keybr.com

Offline boli

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A Kinesis Advantage fan tries the TrulyErgonomic keyboard
« Reply #8 on: Sat, 11 February 2012, 03:26:05 »
I still miss an Option key close to the (thumb) Command key, so I also thought about mapping the central Enter key to Option, and moving Enter somewhere else. This would allow me to easily use Cmd + Opt + [1-4] to switch virtual desktops for example. With the current layout Cmd + Opt + [1-4] is quite a workout, compared to what I'm used to from the Kinesis or even a "normal" keyboard, such as the Apple keyboard I used 4+ years ago, which has Cmd+Opt next to each other. I guess I'll have to find a keyboard shortcut that is a little easier on the hand, say Command + Ctrl + [1-4].

On the plus side the window management options given by Zooom which I had set to Shift + Option for move, and Shift + Option + Ctrl for resize can be done OK. It's different, and requires leaving the home row, but it's not uncomfortable. Still there might be a keyboard shortcut that is easier to do, maybe Command + Shift or Command + Ctrl (must be one-handed because the other hand is on the mouse).

Using the central Backspace (index) and Enter (thumb) works pretty well already, but I'm still struggling with the central Tab (index). It's comfortable to use, and occasionally nice to have available for the right hand, I'm just not used to it yet. Apparently there's a lot of muscle memory to overcome.
« Last Edit: Sat, 11 February 2012, 03:28:50 by boli »
Keyboard: Kinesis Ergo Advantage (two LF editions with red Cherry switches, one regular with brown switches)
Keyboard layout: basically Colemak, with some remapping to end up with my custom Kinesis Advantage layout
Typing test profiles: typeracer.com / hi-games.net / keybr.com

Offline boli

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A Kinesis Advantage fan tries the TrulyErgonomic keyboard
« Reply #9 on: Sun, 19 February 2012, 04:58:10 »
I've been using the TE for 6.5 work days so far, and I'm definitely adapting to it.

Since I remapped many of the letter and punctuation keys back to their normal position (all but [{ and ]} and \|) the only thing left to get used to are the modifier keys.

The central Backspace and Enter are becoming second nature. I'm still getting there with the Tab key. I definitely like pressing Tab with the index finger of either hand.
Having Command on the left thumb feels great, not surprisingly I still wish there were more thumb keys. ;) Ctrl and Option are operated by the pinkies, which works, but doesn't feel as good as using a thumb - to me anyway.

A work buddy returned my Advantage LF to me yesterday, so I could switch back now. I'm tempted, but maybe I should give the TE more time. So far I definitely like the TE a lot. It proved to me that a flat keyboard with staggered columns (rather than rows) can work (almost) as well as 3D bowls. Due to its sturdy construction the TE does feel more solid than the Advantage IME - it's not an issue for me, but it is noticeable.
While I could get used to having less thumb keys, I'd rather not - that'd be like going back to a staggered rows keyboard after typing on a straight column keyboard for a while. ;)
Anyway, combining these two features should work very well, which definitely bodes well for something like the ErgoDox!
Keyboard: Kinesis Ergo Advantage (two LF editions with red Cherry switches, one regular with brown switches)
Keyboard layout: basically Colemak, with some remapping to end up with my custom Kinesis Advantage layout
Typing test profiles: typeracer.com / hi-games.net / keybr.com

Offline dzd

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A Kinesis Advantage fan tries the TrulyErgonomic keyboard
« Reply #10 on: Tue, 21 February 2012, 15:59:09 »
Quote from: boli;510263
I guess adding a few pictures can't hurt...

WASD key caps and one Kinesis key cap, from left to right: R1, R2, R3, R4, Kinesis tall thumb key:
(Attachment Link) 39884[/ATTACH]

TE key caps, from left to right: Z, A, Q, 1, F1
(Attachment Link) 39885[/ATTACH]

Top view of these two groups:
(Attachment Link) 39886[/ATTACH]

Top view grouped by row:
(Attachment Link) 39887[/ATTACH]

Side view grouped by row:
(Attachment Link) 39888[/ATTACH]

From these comparisons I'd say that WASD replacements key caps would work pretty well, with the exception of the center column and the two space bars.

No idea why I even put the Kinesis Ctrl key in the pic, clearly the top two rows (num row and F# key row) of the TE are the same shape, which match the WASD R4 pretty well.

Great information - thanks again, boli.

I will probably have to get a WASD Colemak set pretty soon. I am trying keycap labels/stickers on my TE (first time trying stickers) - and they don't feel good at all.

Do you think you will do that for your TE, too?

Quote from: boli;518525
So far I definitely like the TE a lot...
While I could get used to having less thumb keys, I'd rather not - that'd be like going back to a staggered rows keyboard after typing on a straight column keyboard for a while. ;)
Anyway, combining these two features should work very well, which definitely bodes well for something like the ErgoDox!

I have similar feelings about the Kinesis and TE. And yes, I really hope the ErgoDox will be available later!
« Last Edit: Tue, 21 February 2012, 16:22:16 by dzd »

Offline boli

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A Kinesis Advantage fan tries the TrulyErgonomic keyboard
« Reply #11 on: Tue, 21 February 2012, 18:40:17 »
Quote from: dzd;521028
Great information - thanks again, boli.


You're very welcome.

Quote
I will probably have to get a WASD Colemak set pretty soon. I am trying keycap labels/stickers on my TE (first time trying stickers) - and they don't feel good at all.


Been there... in my case they felt OK at first but eventually the adhesive stopped working and the stickers slipped when touched. :-/

Quote
Do you think you will do that for your TE, too?


Not right away. Next up are more key cap sets for the Advantages. :)

The TE's angled middle key caps might be hard to replace, so they could be left alone, or possibly get the sandpaper treatment to remove the legends.

Quote
I have similar feelings about the Kinesis and TE. And yes, I really hope the ErgoDox will be available later!


Aye that would be sweet! ATM I'm thinking a TE with a pair of normal keys instead of one or both mini spacebars would be very welcome. Mapping these to Command, Option, Space and Ctrl would be nice. I wonder if due to the central location these could be used by both thumbs comfortably...

Hmm, played around a bit on the left side... movement cluster shifted to the center, added extra key below Z, and extra thumb key. Right side is original for comparison.
[ Attachment Invalid Or Does Not Exist ] 41310[/ATTACH]
Maybe the Enter key could be split as well...
Keyboard: Kinesis Ergo Advantage (two LF editions with red Cherry switches, one regular with brown switches)
Keyboard layout: basically Colemak, with some remapping to end up with my custom Kinesis Advantage layout
Typing test profiles: typeracer.com / hi-games.net / keybr.com

Offline Input Nirvana

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A Kinesis Advantage fan tries the TrulyErgonomic keyboard
« Reply #12 on: Tue, 21 February 2012, 18:59:07 »
Nice ongoing evaluations of the TE. I appreciate all the comparisons and the nit-picking of incredibly minor details...since that's what keyboards boil down to. Some very positive and not very positive points well made.

One point I'd re-mention: After using the highly coveted thumb keys on a Kinesis, it's certainly a step down to not have them. They are so damn functional! The TE with the matrix/finger-staggererd and angled halves is a very nice and ergo-friendly design, as also shown on the Maltron 2D. I believe this particular design is as good as a flat keyboard can be, and the only substantial improvement would be a true split/tilt...which the proposed Ergo-Dox could do. That being said, it seems there's no reason keyboard manufacturers could compete and try to expand on this to squeeze out every positive the basic design offers, at not much increase in cost. I mean really, the damn thing is flat! I also believe that the adjustments in the staggering of the finger rows has a very similar effect as to the 3D keywells, yet keeps the cost and manufacturing more manageable. So toss a couple thumb keys in there somewhere and get a really polished design. There is definitely room for improvement that could even become "standard".
Kinesis Advantage | RollerMouse Free 2 | Apple Magic Trackpad | Alphagrip | Colemak | all on Mac
Evil Screaming Flying Door Monkeys From Hell               Proudly GeekWhacking since 2009
Staying in touch with Tapatalk Pro                                Thanks much, Smallfry
I AM THE REAPER...BECAUSE I KILL IT

Offline sordna

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A Kinesis Advantage fan tries the TrulyErgonomic keyboard
« Reply #13 on: Tue, 21 February 2012, 19:06:08 »
Speaking of flat keyboards, here's a very interesting custom flat keyboard, the "KeyPoard", however it lacks thumb keys as well:

http://geekhack.org/showwiki.php?title=Island:26845

[sorry for the slight off-topic post, further comments about the KeyPoard should be posted to the above wiki's thread]
Kinesis Contoured Advantage LF with Cherry MX Red switches / Extra keys mod / O-ring dampening mod / Dvorak layout. ErgoDox with buzzer and LED mod.
Also: Kinesis Advantage Classic, Kinesis Contoured Model 110, Data911 TG3, Fingerworks Touchstream LP, KBC Poker (Cherry MX Red), IBM Space Saving keyboard (Buckling spring), Goldtouch GTU-0077 keyboard

Offline treigle

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A Kinesis Advantage fan tries the TrulyErgonomic keyboard
« Reply #14 on: Tue, 21 February 2012, 21:05:53 »
Hey guys, even with your input in other threads, I couldn't decide whether to go for the Kinesis or the TE, so I did the only reasonable thing and bought both (on their way). I'll post my experiences in the next few weeks....

I feel that no flat board can quite match the ergonomic sexiness of a contoured board, but given my extensive use of function keys, if the TE's ergonomics even come close, I may well prefer it overall. It's dual directional clusters look pretty great BTW, and "mousing" feels a bit better to me with the [trackball] closer in than even a Kinesis or tenkeyless allow. If those two boards made babies together............ ;)

On the TE I'm thinking: left space=control, printscreen (or Meta)=insert, corner delete=pause (104 ANSI version), move Alt keys up one space, and have original Alts=Meta (for window manager shortcuts on Linux). Left space as backspace would be awesome if there were a few more thumb keys....

On the Kinesis Advantage: Caps Lock=escape...

Boli: what do you think about keeping the TE's nav clusters where they are and making the whole "spacebar region" 5 1.25x (width) keys or 6 1x keys instead of 3? For example, from left to right: Command (Mac)/Control (other), Backspace, Enter, [Forward] Space, and Alt/AltGR/Option. Thumbs would rest on backspace and space, but have very easy access to a couple of modifiers plus enter... On my ANSI Filco, it's not too hard to hit Alt/AltGR with thumbs, and on boards with very short space bars, it's much better still...

Off topic: Do you Colemak guys feel that Colemak's layout is compromised due to keeping certain hotkeys in place (WQAZXCV)? Given that Qwery already pushed lesser used characters to the corners, this may be a non-issue, but I wonder if something like ARENSITO (just the letter layout portion) would be better for pure typing... I have enjoyed Colemak for a couple of weeks now though.
Kinesis Advantage, Truly Ergonomic (ANSI), Filco 87

Offline Input Nirvana

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A Kinesis Advantage fan tries the TrulyErgonomic keyboard
« Reply #15 on: Tue, 21 February 2012, 21:41:09 »
I'm finding the comparisons between Kinesis and the TE interesting since on paper they are such different animals, but trying to achieve similar goals. I'm glad I'm not the only one :) Also, I have not used a TE yet, but am looking forward to test driving it.

Off-topic round up from earlier off-topic posts:
Of course Colemak is somewhat compromised (at least in principle: by keeping some of the hotkeys. But there can not be a 'perfect' layout either, so it's an academic problem with no real definite solution. Not to mention the variables...

The TE's dual directional clusters are a very clean and well thought out layout design. I had imagined modifying a same (single) directional cluster that was dual-purposed with the 2nd layer on a Kinesis, but this can be achieved with the right keywell with remapping and use of the 2nd layer. You can do amazing things with remapping and 2nd layers!

Digging the "Keypoard" for very many reasons as well, but I've refrained from commenting up to this point, I'll unleash with my thoughts soon enough. I wanted to give enough time for others to flesh it out first. For now, a major 'thumbs up" :)
« Last Edit: Tue, 21 February 2012, 21:51:30 by input nirvana »
Kinesis Advantage | RollerMouse Free 2 | Apple Magic Trackpad | Alphagrip | Colemak | all on Mac
Evil Screaming Flying Door Monkeys From Hell               Proudly GeekWhacking since 2009
Staying in touch with Tapatalk Pro                                Thanks much, Smallfry
I AM THE REAPER...BECAUSE I KILL IT

Offline boli

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A Kinesis Advantage fan tries the TrulyErgonomic keyboard
« Reply #16 on: Wed, 22 February 2012, 02:38:54 »
Quote from: input nirvana;521199
Nice ongoing evaluations of the TE. I appreciate all the comparisons and the nit-picking of incredibly minor details...since that's what keyboards boil down to. Some very positive and not very positive points well made.

One point I'd re-mention: After using the highly coveted thumb keys on a Kinesis, it's certainly a step down to not have them. They are so damn functional! The TE with the matrix/finger-staggererd and angled halves is a very nice and ergo-friendly design, as also shown on the Maltron 2D. I believe this particular design is as good as a flat keyboard can be, and the only substantial improvement would be a true split/tilt...which the proposed Ergo-Dox could do. That being said, it seems there's no reason keyboard manufacturers could compete and try to expand on this to squeeze out every positive the basic design offers, at not much increase in cost. I mean really, the damn thing is flat! I also believe that the adjustments in the staggering of the finger rows has a very similar effect as to the 3D keywells, yet keeps the cost and manufacturing more manageable. So toss a couple thumb keys in there somewhere and get a really polished design. There is definitely room for improvement that could even become "standard".

Agree on everything. Now if only Apple could make a good straight column to make it more mainstream, like sordna mentioned in another thread. In addition to revolutionizing the keyboard and writing yet more computer history they'd also be doing something that Microsoft did not. ;)

Quote from: sordna;521209
Speaking of flat keyboards, here's a very interesting custom flat keyboard, the "KeyPoard", however it lacks thumb keys as well:

http://geekhack.org/showwiki.php?title=Island:26845

Oh yeah, I saw the KeyPoard in a comparison thread of matrix keyboards. Definitely has potential. :)

Quote from: treigle;521328
I couldn't decide whether to go for the Kinesis or the TE, so I did the only reasonable thing and bought both (on their way).

O.o Oh wow, you don't do things by halves, ey? :D Looking forward to reading more opinions, particularly if you find the Advantage easier to get used to as well, like two work buddies said.

Quote
I feel that no flat board can quite match the ergonomic sexiness of a contoured board, but given my extensive use of function keys, if the TE's ergonomics even come close, I may well prefer it overall. It's dual directional clusters look pretty great BTW, and "mousing" feels a bit better to me with the [trackball] closer in than even a Kinesis or tenkeyless allow. If those two boards made babies together... ;)

The directional clusters are nice, I prefer the TE arrangement over the vi-like arrangement of the arrow keys on my Advantage (lowest left hand row, check my layout in sig). However I'd prefer if TE had moved them one position toward the center, so they would have been straight down from the home position, and thus exceptionally easy to find without looking. The ring finger would be the on outward arrow/Home, straight below QWERTY S; and the index finger would be on the inward arrow/End, straight below QWERTY F).

Quote
On the TE I'm thinking: left space=control, printscreen (or Meta)=insert, corner delete=pause (104 ANSI version), move Alt keys up one space, and have original Alts=Meta (for window manager shortcuts on Linux). Left space as backspace would be awesome if there were a few more thumb keys....

Agreed. If you're going to be typing on two different keyboards for a while it may help to move the TE Shifts to their usual position, but maybe your brain is more adaptable than mine and you can leave them.

Quote
On the Kinesis Advantage: Caps Lock=escape...

That's good, I used to do that too, but needed the spot for `~ eventually.

Quote
Boli: what do you think about keeping the TE's nav clusters where they are and making the whole "spacebar region" 5 1.25x (width) keys or 6 1x keys instead of 3?

Yes please! I think I'd prefer that over the original (though I'd like "my mockup" above even more I think).

Quote
For example, from left to right: Command (Mac)/Control (other), Backspace, Enter, [Forward] Space, and Alt/AltGR/Option. Thumbs would rest on backspace and space, but have very easy access to a couple of modifiers plus enter... On my ANSI Filco, it's not too hard to hit Alt/AltGR with thumbs, and on boards with very short space bars, it's much better still...

Aye that should work very well.

Quote
Off topic: Do you Colemak guys feel that Colemak's layout is compromised due to keeping certain hotkeys in place (WQAZXCV)? Given that Qwery already pushed lesser used characters to the corners, this may be a non-issue, but I wonder if something like ARENSITO (just the letter layout portion) would be better for pure typing... I have enjoyed Colemak for a couple of weeks now though.

Yes, it certainly is somewhat of a compromise. A fully optimized layout would be a few percent "better" in one or other metric. The difference between Colemak and fully optimized isn't very large though, especially when comparing to how much "worse" QWERTY scores. Also I trust that Shai spent a loft of time fine-tuning Colemak so common digraphs etc feel nice, I'm less sure about these full optimizations, or the proposed Colemak improvements. And I definitely appreciate that the commonly used shortcut keys Q, W, A, Z, X, C, V are in their normal location.
About Arensito, I think the intriguing part about it is the Shifted layout! The letter part of it is "just" yet another layout which is supposed to be good. There's many alternative layouts, as well as MTGAP.


Quote from: input nirvana;521363
You can do amazing things with remapping and 2nd layers!

Indeed, this is why I like the idea of the Arensito shifted layer. On the Advantage one could do something like this with the keypad layer, like sordna did in his mod. Ideally the keypad-shift key would be in a thumb cluster though.
« Last Edit: Wed, 22 February 2012, 03:03:56 by boli »
Keyboard: Kinesis Ergo Advantage (two LF editions with red Cherry switches, one regular with brown switches)
Keyboard layout: basically Colemak, with some remapping to end up with my custom Kinesis Advantage layout
Typing test profiles: typeracer.com / hi-games.net / keybr.com

Offline dzd

  • Posts: 31
A Kinesis Advantage fan tries the TrulyErgonomic keyboard
« Reply #17 on: Wed, 22 February 2012, 13:03:09 »
Quote from: sordna;521209
Speaking of flat keyboards, here's a very interesting custom flat keyboard, the "KeyPoard"...
http://geekhack.org/showwiki.php?title=Island:26845

I like the KeyPoard too - hadn't seen it yet.

For the Kinesis' barren middle part, I think I would prefer a touchpad instead of more keys (like the Maltrons have) - but it's hard to know without trying it. Kinesis suggests that a Cirque/Adesso touchpad would work well there - but that seems too messy and clunky to deal with.

There used to be a 128-key XKEYS:
[ Attachment Invalid Or Does Not Exist ] 41362[/ATTACH]
You could make it into a matrix alpha layout and have tons of keys leftover for whatever else. It was only $300! Too bad it's been discontinued.


Quote from: treigle;521328
Hey guys, even with your input in other threads, I couldn't decide whether to go for the Kinesis or the TE, so I did the only reasonable thing and bought both (on their way). I'll post my experiences in the next few weeks...
I feel that no flat board can quite match the ergonomic sexiness of a contoured board...

Yes - but the reverse it true too - a contoured board can't match the sexiness and accommodating profile of a flat board. So yes, you must have both!

I like the TE a lot, but I still miss the sexy look of straight lines and rows on a flat board. Straight lines and rows make the board look so much more like this cool thing you punch away at to interact with your machine.

The staggered, not-spread-apart keys on a typical board look more uncomfortable than sexy.
« Last Edit: Thu, 23 February 2012, 12:18:45 by dzd »

Offline Input Nirvana

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A Kinesis Advantage fan tries the TrulyErgonomic keyboard
« Reply #18 on: Wed, 22 February 2012, 15:32:52 »
Quote from: dzd;521997
For the Kinesis' barren middle part, I think I would prefer a touchpad instead of more keys (like the Maltrons have) - but it's hard to know without trying it. Kinesis suggests that a Cirque touchpad would work well there - but that seems too messy and clunky to deal with.

I can tell you from my experience that an Apple Magic Trackpad is a great device to use in the mid-section of a Kinesis.

I use both a Rollermouse Free 2 and the Apple trackpad.
Kinesis Advantage | RollerMouse Free 2 | Apple Magic Trackpad | Alphagrip | Colemak | all on Mac
Evil Screaming Flying Door Monkeys From Hell               Proudly GeekWhacking since 2009
Staying in touch with Tapatalk Pro                                Thanks much, Smallfry
I AM THE REAPER...BECAUSE I KILL IT

Offline boli

  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 350
A Kinesis Advantage fan tries the TrulyErgonomic keyboard
« Reply #19 on: Wed, 22 February 2012, 17:05:42 »
Nice, I got an Apple trackpad myself some time ago, and recently got rid of USBOverdrive so I can actually use the Trackpad. Found a few placement tips in your sig and will try to attach it on top of the Advantage (at home) somehow, and try it out. There's a lot of nice gestures in Mac OS X Lion apparently... :) the 3-finger drag and tap-to-click already come in handy because I can't physically click the Trackpad when its feet hover in the air due to missing back support... The angled placement felt weird when moving the cursor, and doesn't allow clicking either.
« Last Edit: Wed, 22 February 2012, 17:11:37 by boli »
Keyboard: Kinesis Ergo Advantage (two LF editions with red Cherry switches, one regular with brown switches)
Keyboard layout: basically Colemak, with some remapping to end up with my custom Kinesis Advantage layout
Typing test profiles: typeracer.com / hi-games.net / keybr.com

Offline Snarfangel

  • Posts: 158
A Kinesis Advantage fan tries the TrulyErgonomic keyboard
« Reply #20 on: Wed, 22 February 2012, 17:33:15 »
Quote from: dzd;521997
For the Kinesis' barren middle part, I think I would prefer a touchpad instead of more keys (like the Maltrons have) - but it's hard to know without trying it. Kinesis suggests that a Cirque touchpad would work well there - but that seems too messy and clunky to deal with.

I rather like the Maltron idea -- maybe not like they have on their standard keyboard, but perhaps something like this:

[ Attachment Invalid Or Does Not Exist ] 41384[/ATTACH]

I would put the touch pad and arrow keys on the right, I think. Years ago I had one of these (or a remarkable facsimile of it) with a built-in Cirque touchpad, and I really liked it:

[ Attachment Invalid Or Does Not Exist ] 41386[/ATTACH]

Offline Lanx

  • Posts: 2973
A Kinesis Advantage fan tries the TrulyErgonomic keyboard
« Reply #21 on: Thu, 23 February 2012, 11:44:21 »
i put my phone in the barren wasteland of the kinesis and listen to podcasts that way. currently microsoft zune is on the fritz and i refuse to have itunes on my computer.

Offline dzd

  • Posts: 31
A Kinesis Advantage fan tries the TrulyErgonomic keyboard
« Reply #22 on: Thu, 23 February 2012, 12:14:15 »
Quote from: input nirvana;522137
I can tell you from my experience that an Apple Magic Trackpad is a great device to use in the mid-section of a Kinesis.

I didn't even think about the Trackpad. Sounds good, but its hanging off at the back and not being attached to the Kinesis - looks like it'll be a problem when I move things around on my desk (like when switching between the Kinesis and TE! :) ). I also don't want to have to attach it to the Kinesis (with Velcro, tape, etc.). But this is certainly good to know. Looks like it'll be great for putting between the ErgoDox!

Quote from: input nirvana;522137
I use both a Rollermouse Free 2 and the Apple trackpad.

I was wondering how well the Rollermouse would work with the Kinesis' shape. I'll search for some pictures of that.

Quote from: Snarfangel;522245
I rather like the Maltron idea -- maybe not like they have on their standard keyboard, but perhaps something like this:

(Attachment Link) 41384[/ATTACH]

I would put the touch pad and arrow keys on the right, I think. Years ago I had one of these (or a remarkable facsimile of it) with a built-in Cirque touchpad, and I really liked it:

(Attachment Link) 41386[/ATTACH]

Ooo - more nice ideas/shares (Lanx's too).
« Last Edit: Thu, 23 February 2012, 12:19:38 by dzd »

Offline dzd

  • Posts: 31
A Kinesis Advantage fan tries the TrulyErgonomic keyboard
« Reply #23 on: Thu, 23 February 2012, 12:16:03 »
Quote from: Snarfangel;522245
I rather like the Maltron idea -- maybe not like they have on their standard keyboard, but perhaps something like this:

(Attachment Link) 41384[/ATTACH]

I would put the touch pad and arrow keys on the right, I think. Years ago I had one of these (or a remarkable facsimile of it) with a built-in Cirque touchpad, and I really liked it:

(Attachment Link) 41386[/ATTACH]

Ooo - more nice ideas/shares.

Offline Snarfangel

  • Posts: 158
A Kinesis Advantage fan tries the TrulyErgonomic keyboard
« Reply #24 on: Fri, 24 February 2012, 00:17:48 »
Quote from: dzd;523225
I didn't even think about the Trackpad. Sounds good, but its hanging off at the back and not being attached to the Kinesis - looks like it'll be a problem when I move things around on my desk (like when switching between the Kinesis and TE! :) ). I also don't want to have to attach it to the Kinesis (with Velcro, tape, etc.). But this is certainly good to know. Looks like it'll be great for putting between the ErgoDox!



I was wondering how well the Rollermouse would work with the Kinesis' shape. I'll search for some pictures of that.



Ooo - more nice ideas/shares (Lanx's too).

Here is a flat Maltron (Maltron "Executive") I hadn't seen before:
[ Attachment Invalid Or Does Not Exist ] 41544[/ATTACH]

I don't like the location of arrow keys or home/end/PgUp/PgDn (something like the Truly Ergonomic setup -- though not directly under the wrists -- might be nice). And if those are moved out of the way, you could put something like the larger keys the TypeMatrix has (Back Space, Enter, Tab) between the letters and the number matrix.

For comparison, here is the normal monster Maltron matrix:

[ Attachment Invalid Or Does Not Exist ] 41545[/ATTACH]

Offline boli

  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 350
A Kinesis Advantage fan tries the TrulyErgonomic keyboard
« Reply #25 on: Fri, 24 February 2012, 14:27:14 »
Quote from: boli;518525
I've been using the TE for 6.5 work days so far, and I'm definitely adapting to it.

Since I remapped many of the letter and punctuation keys back to their normal position (all but [{ and ]} and \|) the only thing left to get used to are the modifier keys.

The central Backspace and Enter are becoming second nature. I'm still getting there with the Tab key. I definitely like pressing Tab with the index finger of either hand.
Having Command on the left thumb feels great, not surprisingly I still wish there were more thumb keys. ;) Ctrl and Option are operated by the pinkies, which works, but doesn't feel as good as using a thumb - to me anyway.

A work buddy returned my Advantage LF to me yesterday, so I could switch back now. I'm tempted, but maybe I should give the TE more time. So far I definitely like the TE a lot. It proved to me that a flat keyboard with staggered columns (rather than rows) can work (almost) as well as 3D bowls. Due to its sturdy construction the TE does feel more solid than the Advantage IME - it's not an issue for me, but it is noticeable.
While I could get used to having less thumb keys, I'd rather not - that'd be like going back to a staggered rows keyboard after typing on a straight column keyboard for a while. ;)
Anyway, combining these two features should work very well, which definitely bodes well for something like the ErgoDox!

Today I stopped using the TE after 2 weeks and a day. I gave it to a coworker to try out. :) I like the TE a lot, and my summary above is still valid. If you're not used to having thumb keys (i.e. if you're not a Mac user), or if you find pinky modifiers work OK for you, I can heartily recommend it!

If you are used to having thumb keys, or want an even more comfortable layout, definitely give the Kinesis Advantage a try.
« Last Edit: Fri, 24 February 2012, 14:29:22 by boli »
Keyboard: Kinesis Ergo Advantage (two LF editions with red Cherry switches, one regular with brown switches)
Keyboard layout: basically Colemak, with some remapping to end up with my custom Kinesis Advantage layout
Typing test profiles: typeracer.com / hi-games.net / keybr.com

Offline Input Nirvana

  • * Bard of Virtue and Vice
  • Posts: 3603
  • Location: Somewhere in the San Francisco Bay area
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A Kinesis Advantage fan tries the TrulyErgonomic keyboard
« Reply #26 on: Fri, 24 February 2012, 14:45:26 »
I loved my first ergo. Just found it in a box, one just sold on ebay for $35....hmmmm
[ Attachment Invalid Or Does Not Exist ] 41603[/ATTACH]

Boli:
The Apple Magic Trackpad on the Kinesis is an awesome combo, but is not without it's positioning problems. I tried cutting a small piece of aluminum I had (the same size as the trackpad) and I used that as a platform for the trackpad on the uneven surface of the Kinesis. Once I shimmed the low spots, it worked perfect. I'm not using it though, I defer to using my Rollermouse. Love is hard to get over :)
Kinesis Advantage | RollerMouse Free 2 | Apple Magic Trackpad | Alphagrip | Colemak | all on Mac
Evil Screaming Flying Door Monkeys From Hell               Proudly GeekWhacking since 2009
Staying in touch with Tapatalk Pro                                Thanks much, Smallfry
I AM THE REAPER...BECAUSE I KILL IT

Offline treigle

  • Posts: 106
    • http://www.neuron0.net
A Kinesis Advantage fan tries the TrulyErgonomic keyboard
« Reply #27 on: Tue, 28 February 2012, 01:22:12 »
No time for a proper review, but I've had these both for 5 days now:

[ Attachment Invalid Or Does Not Exist ] 42026[/ATTACH]

Standard Advantage w/ browns, ANSI TE w/ reds.

They're both great boards!

Construction:
The Kinesis is surprisingly light for it's size, much lighter than a Filco tenkeyless, thought I am completely satisfied with it's build quality, fit, and finish. The TE is a tank, weighing a tad more than a Filco tenkeyless.

Keyfeel:
The TE feels just as one would expect a Leopold or Filco to feel, but the Kinesis surprised me. It feels noticeably smoother than a Filco/brown, and much more like an MX-11800. I thought the difference in feel between my old 11800 and a Filco/brown was mostly due heavily worn switches, but now believe it's mostly the plate vs PCB mounting, and I personally really like the softer, smoother PCB mounted feel.... I'm sure a Kinesis w/ reds feels fantastic, but I don't regret not having sprung for reds....

Layout:
The matrix/split layout of these boards is actually quite easy to get used to for general typing.
The alt keys in the TE are easier to reach than I expected, and I'm glad I didn't go for the 109, as I often use the knuckle of the (curled) little finger to press them rather than the fingertip. Alt-tab isn't quite as bad as I thought it would be on either board.

Thumb keys: the three closest  (per thumb) keys on the Kinesis are very easy to hit, while the other three require a slight movement of the whole hand. I'm not sure that I prefer them to the pinkie modifiers on the TE, which are quite natural to me, already being used to pinky modifiers (plus thumbs for alt/alt-gr).

Function keys:
They are not nearly as bad as I feared on the Kinesis, and probably shouldn't rule out the board if it's otherwise your top choice. They are not nearly as good as they should be though. They feel like rocker switches unless you hit them dead center, which is not unpleasant, but because the stiffer center of the switch is what actually registers a keystroke, there is a chance an off-center press won't register. This rocking action is what is meant when they are described as "squishy", not that the key body deforms appreciably. The function keys on the Kinesis are easy to reach from the home row; on the TE they require more of a stretch than they look to.

Center column (TE):
Keys in the center column are quite easy and comfortable to hit with the index fingers while keeping the pinkies anchored on their home row position, provided that all fingers are splayed slightly during the reach over. If one insists on only flexing their index finger laterally, keeping the others fixed, then it is indeed quite an awkward and uncomfortable stretch.

Misc:
The locator nubs on the F/J keys on the TE are easy to miss as they are not very pronounced (much like on a Leopold). It's easy to type on the wrong columns on the TE, which is great if you insist on using WASD instead of ESDF for gaming, but sometimes inconvenient for typing. On the Kinesis, if you place your hand on the wrong columns, you know instantly, as the profile will not feel right at all.

I noticed that IJKL on the Kinesis actually doesn't work too well for old side scrollers, as I seem to sort of skip over the home row with the middle finger. Shifting down a row completely eliminates this problem, and feels very natural. I think traditional inverted T arrow clusters may be superior to those on the TE, as the middle finger is the longest and naturally rests half-way between the up and and keys, though the arrow clusters on the TE feel just fine.

The arrow keys on the Kinesis are surprisingly easy to get used to for general text editing, though diagonal movement+delete sequences are not very intuitive...  I often find myself pressing arrow keys instead if the intended letter keys on the row above.

Both arrow clusters on the TE are of course more intuitive than their counterparts on the Kinesis.

Pronation, and contoured vs. flat boards:
I noticed that when I type on a flat board, my palms are always rotated in about 10-15 degrees from horizontal, such that my keystroke vector is at an angle to the keyswitch's vector, and my fingers curl slightly more or less to rest flat on the keyboard. Forcing my palms to be truly parallel to the ground is extremely awkward and uncomfortable. On the Kinesis, my wrists and arms are just slightly less pronated than on a flat board, but my keystoke vectors perfectly match the vector of the switches, and the contour provides a more neutral resting position.

Programmability:
The programmability of the Kinesis is pretty slick, and is truly OS independent, it's interface being embedded in the keyboard, unlike whatever TE may come up with at some point. I don't mind remapping in Linux, but this is a huge factor for many.

Layout:
I haven't done much coding yet on either board, but for non-technical use the TE is an easier adjustment other than the Shift location. You don't have to remap arrow keys in games, text navigation is more intuitive, one handed typing while eating/drinking is much easier, etc. I suspect that Kinesis's layout might be easier to program on. I absolutely approve of TE's shift placement, but it's quite an adjustment....

I'm using left space as backspace on the TE, both to match the Kinesis, and because frankly it's nice to easily correct the [more frequent] errors while adjusting to a new layout. I'm sure this will again prove it's value when I get back into Colemak/other.

More later....
Kinesis Advantage, Truly Ergonomic (ANSI), Filco 87

Offline treigle

  • Posts: 106
    • http://www.neuron0.net
A Kinesis Advantage fan tries the TrulyErgonomic keyboard
« Reply #28 on: Tue, 28 February 2012, 01:23:56 »
No time for a proper review, but I've had these both for 5 days now:

[ Attachment Invalid Or Does Not Exist ] 42031[/ATTACH]

Standard Advantage w/ browns, ANSI TE w/ reds.

They're both great boards!

Construction:
The Kinesis is surprisingly light for it's size, much lighter than a Filco tenkeyless, thought I am completely satisfied with it's build quality, fit, and finish. The TE is a tank, weighing a tad more than a Filco tenkeyless.

Keyfeel:
The TE feels just as one would expect a Leopold or Filco to feel, but the Kinesis surprised me. It feels noticeably smoother than a Filco/brown, and much more like an MX-11800. I thought the difference in feel between my old 11800 and a Filco/brown was mostly due heavily worn switches, but now believe it's mostly the plate vs PCB mounting, and I personally really like the softer, smoother PCB mounted feel.... I'm sure a Kinesis w/ reds feels fantastic, but I don't regret not having sprung for reds....

Matrix:
The matrix/split layout of these boards is actually quite easy to get used to for general typing.
The alt keys in the TE are easier to reach than I expected, and I'm glad I didn't go for the 109, as I often use the knuckle of the (curled) little finger to press them rather than the fingertip. Alt-tab isn't quite as bad as I thought it would be on either board.

Thumb keys: the three closest  (per thumb) keys on the Kinesis are very easy to hit, while the other three require a slight movement of the whole hand. I'm not sure that I prefer them to the pinkie modifiers on the TE, which are quite natural to me, already being used to pinky modifiers (plus thumbs for alt/alt-gr).

Function keys:
They are not nearly as bad as I feared on the Kinesis, and probably shouldn't rule out the board if it's otherwise your top choice. They are not nearly as good as they should be though. They feel like rocker switches unless you hit them dead center, which is not unpleasant, but because the stiffer center of the switch is what actually registers a keystroke, there is a chance an off-center press won't register. This rocking action is what is meant when they are described as "squishy", not that the key body deforms appreciably. The function keys on the Kinesis are easy to reach from the home row; on the TE they require more of a stretch than they look to.

Center column (TE):
Keys in the center column are quite easy and comfortable to hit with the index fingers while keeping the pinkies anchored on their home row position, provided that all fingers are splayed slightly during the reach over. If one insists on only flexing their index finger laterally, keeping the others fixed, then it is indeed quite an awkward and uncomfortable stretch.

Misc:
The locator nubs on the F/J keys on the TE are easy to miss as they are not very pronounced (much like on a Leopold). It's easy to type on the wrong columns on the TE, which is great if you insist on using WASD instead of ESDF for gaming, but sometimes inconvenient for typing. On the Kinesis, if you place your hand on the wrong columns, you know instantly, as the profile will not feel right at all.

I noticed that IJKL on the Kinesis actually doesn't work too well for old side scrollers, as I seem to sort of skip over the home row with the middle finger. Shifting down a row completely eliminates this problem, and feels very natural. I think traditional inverted T arrow clusters may be superior to those on the TE, as the middle finger is the longest and naturally rests half-way between the up and and keys, though the arrow clusters on the TE feel just fine.

The arrow keys on the Kinesis are surprisingly easy to get used to for general text editing, though diagonal movement+delete sequences are not very intuitive...  I often find myself pressing arrow keys instead if the intended letter keys on the row above.

Both arrow clusters on the TE are of course more intuitive than their counterparts on the Kinesis.

Pronation, and contoured vs. flat boards:
I noticed that when I type on a flat board, my palms are always rotated in about 10-15 degrees from horizontal, such that my keystroke vector is at an angle to the keyswitch's vector, and my fingers curl slightly more or less to rest flat on the keyboard. Forcing my palms to be truly parallel to the ground is extremely awkward and uncomfortable. On the Kinesis, my wrists and arms are just slightly less pronated than on a flat board, but my keystoke vectors perfectly match the vector of the switches, and the contour provides a more neutral resting position.

Programmability:
The programmability of the Kinesis is pretty slick, and is truly OS independent, it's interface being embedded in the keyboard, unlike whatever TE may come up with at some point. I don't mind remapping in Linux, but this is a huge factor for many.

Layout:
I haven't done much coding yet on either board, but for non-technical use the TE is an easier adjustment other than the Shift location. You don't have to remap arrow keys in games, text navigation is more intuitive, one handed typing while eating/drinking is much easier, etc. I suspect that Kinesis's layout might be easier to program on. I absolutely approve of TE's shift placement, but it's quite an adjustment....

I'm using left space as backspace on the TE, both to match the Kinesis, and because frankly it's nice to easily correct the [more frequent] errors while adjusting to a new layout. I'm sure this will again prove it's value when I get back into Colemak/other.

More later....
« Last Edit: Tue, 28 February 2012, 01:27:21 by treigle »
Kinesis Advantage, Truly Ergonomic (ANSI), Filco 87

Offline boli

  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 350
A Kinesis Advantage fan tries the TrulyErgonomic keyboard
« Reply #29 on: Tue, 28 February 2012, 01:39:07 »
Very nice and detailed write-up, treigle. I hope you enjoy both boards and am looking forward to your experiences once you grow more used to them. :)
Keyboard: Kinesis Ergo Advantage (two LF editions with red Cherry switches, one regular with brown switches)
Keyboard layout: basically Colemak, with some remapping to end up with my custom Kinesis Advantage layout
Typing test profiles: typeracer.com / hi-games.net / keybr.com