Author Topic: A Kinesis Advantage fan tries the TrulyErgonomic keyboard  (Read 6824 times)

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Offline treigle

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A Kinesis Advantage fan tries the TrulyErgonomic keyboard
« Reply #30 on: Tue, 28 February 2012, 01:47:39 »
Thanks boli! :)
Kinesis Advantage, Truly Ergonomic (ANSI), Filco 87

Online Input Nirvana

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A Kinesis Advantage fan tries the TrulyErgonomic keyboard
« Reply #31 on: Mon, 05 March 2012, 19:42:06 »
Treigle:
Thank you for the comparative review, it gives a lot of insight. Please update as time goes by.

I suspect that Kinesis probably discounted the keyboard to you in exchange for you saying nice things about the crappy-crapola-crapster-rubbery-F-keys. LOL, LOL  They are quite craptastic!
Kinesis Advantage | RollerMouse Free 2 | Apple Magic Trackpad | Alphagrip | Colemak | all on Mac
Why do I love my keyboard so much? Because my keyboard blows me
Evil Screaming Flying Door Monkeys From Hell are the BEST (you know you want one)

Offline treigle

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A Kinesis Advantage fan tries the TrulyErgonomic keyboard
« Reply #32 on: Sat, 31 March 2012, 00:54:06 »
Not much of an update, I can't really decide which I prefer after over a month. FWIW, my usage consists of writing LaTeX, C, Java, browsing, and playing some games.

I made the following layout modifications to each of the boards:

[ Attachment Invalid Or Does Not Exist ] 46529[/ATTACH]
[ Attachment Invalid Or Does Not Exist ] 46530[/ATTACH]

Kinesis:

I found the arrow layout not as bad as I had feared, but still rather frustrating at times. I mapped a traditional inverted T on the right side of the board, at the expense of displacing a few surrounding keys. I really like the new location of the [] keys for coding, and feel much more comfortable overall with this layout. The major drawback is accidental up arrow key presses in text editors, when you meant to hit comma, but this was a surprisingly easy adjustment.

I swapped the -/+ keys to be consistent with the TE, and because TE's arrangement is slightly more intuitive to me there. When gaming with the arrow keys, the fingers sometimes catch where the keys meet the case, as there is little clearance there. This does not happen when pressing the arrows from the home row position, and the fact that they may be easily and intuitively pressed without leaving the home row is a definite advantage over the TE, as is the thumb delete key.

The major downsides of the Kinesis are the tendency to mix up the lower two rows, and the function keys.

Despite the overall height of the board, the home row is only slightly higher than on a standard board, so my Logitech Marble "Mouse" sits at a comfortable height without being propped up, but needs either to be placed about 1cm further right or 1cm further up than with a conventional keyboard in order for the thumb to clear the case. This is negligible, and I prefer not to prop it up.

Truly Ergonomic:

In theory, their layout of Shift, Control, and Alt makes perfect sense to me. In practice, it drove me absolutely insane in the course of writing a 2 page LaTeX document. The moment I swapped Shift<->Control, I started to enjoy the keyboard much more (I was already used to the Unix Control position on the left side). The directional clusters require slightly more hand movement to use, but I don't tend to inadvertently hit keys on the wrong rows as I sometimes do on the Kinesis. The left navigation cluster, while intuitive, is slightly less so than I thought it would be, simply because I'm used to performing all navigation with the right hand. The Navigation clusters can be hit with the thumbs to some degree from the home row position, but not as readily as on the Kinesis.

From pictures, the thumb enter key looked a tad uncomfortable as it is not angled like the space bars are. In practice, I have not noticed any discomfort from this, though adopting the space bars' angle for this key would be preferable.

I thought I would prefer the TE's narrower stance for "mousing", but in practice I'm pretty ambivalent about this.

Other thoughts:

Many are leery of adopting alternative, ergonomic layouts as they interact with a myriad computer systems, including laptops, and don't want the hassle of switching layouts and such. This is a legitimate concern. I don't have much trouble typing on standard keyboards now and then, but I do catch myself trying to use the spacebar as backspace, enter, and such. If I were forced to use standard layouts the majority of the time, I think I'd just stick with a Filco Tenkeyless at home for consistency.

Ripster suggested a while back that having one's keyboard at the correct height is far more important than having an ergo board, and I tend to agree. I've used a height adjustable sit/stand desk for a couple of years now, so always have my keyboards at the right height, with my hands hovering as I type. I feel that this and going tenkeyless made a much bigger difference to my comfort than did the subsequent transition to TE/Kinesis boards. I have never had any serious RSI issues however, so YMMV.

Both of these boards are great, and for those of us who don't mind the alternative layout, they are well worth the investment, and I think they work well even for programming, provided you tweak the layout to your liking. I'm quite happy with both boards, but just wanted to give some perspective....
« Last Edit: Sat, 31 March 2012, 01:04:37 by treigle »
Kinesis Advantage, Truly Ergonomic (ANSI), Filco 87

Offline sordna

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A Kinesis Advantage fan tries the TrulyErgonomic keyboard
« Reply #33 on: Sat, 31 March 2012, 10:40:49 »
Nice write up. Good idea to modify the layout on the kinesis as you did! It wouldn't work for a dvorak user since where you put the up arrow key is W in dvorak, but for a qwerty user that can't adjust to the split arrow keys, your inverted T idea is very cool.
Kinesis Contoured Advantage LF with Cherry MX Red switches / Extra keys mod / O-ring dampening mod / Dvorak layout. ErgoDox with buzzer mod.
Also: Kinesis Advantage Classic, Kinesis Contoured Model 110, Data911 TG3, Fingerworks Touchstream LP, KBC Poker (Cherry MX Red), IBM Space Saving keyboard (Buckling spring), Goldtouch GTU-0077 keyboard

Offline treigle

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A Kinesis Advantage fan tries the TrulyErgonomic keyboard
« Reply #34 on: Sat, 31 March 2012, 13:51:47 »
Yeah, I thought about how this is QWERTY/Colemak specific. I actually wouldn't mind arrows on the left,  but that's pretty much a no go with almost all conventional layouts on the Kinesis.

The Kinesis arrows aren't really hard to get used to for orthogonal cursor movement, but their is a certain finesse I lose when moving the cursor diagonally on a  Kinesis. Long term Kinesis users probably have no trouble with this.
Kinesis Advantage, Truly Ergonomic (ANSI), Filco 87

Offline sordna

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A Kinesis Advantage fan tries the TrulyErgonomic keyboard
« Reply #35 on: Sat, 31 March 2012, 13:59:43 »
I have had no trouble, after I swapped the up/down arrow keys. As a vi user, I'm used to the index finger going down, middle finger going up. Now I find these arrows better than inverted T, even for games ... only drawback compared to the inverted T, is that you have to have both hands on the keyboard.
Kinesis Contoured Advantage LF with Cherry MX Red switches / Extra keys mod / O-ring dampening mod / Dvorak layout. ErgoDox with buzzer mod.
Also: Kinesis Advantage Classic, Kinesis Contoured Model 110, Data911 TG3, Fingerworks Touchstream LP, KBC Poker (Cherry MX Red), IBM Space Saving keyboard (Buckling spring), Goldtouch GTU-0077 keyboard

Offline boli

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A Kinesis Advantage fan tries the TrulyErgonomic keyboard
« Reply #36 on: Mon, 02 April 2012, 03:00:37 »
Nice write up indeed.

I also like your arrow key arrangement, I'd probably do something similar if I were to switch back to right hand arrows.

As you may have seen in my sig, I have all arrows on the left (very useful with mouse on right hand), but in a VI like arrangement. I once thought about using an inverted T arrangement (on the left side) as well, but like you said, it would have moved letter keys I absolutely wouldn't want moved: C and likely V too. The way you did it looks very good, keeps the arrows close and doesn't move important stuff.

BTW moving the keys on the number row one position to the left isn't an option for you? I found having both the -_ and =+ keys on the top right and the number keys in a similar relative position (comparing to normal staggered rows keyboard) works very well for me, did it on both the TE and Kinesis.
« Last Edit: Mon, 02 April 2012, 03:03:22 by boli »
Keyboard: Kinesis Ergo Advantage (two LF editions with red Cherry switches, one regular with brown switches)
Keyboard layout: basically Colemak, with some remapping to end up with my custom Kinesis Advantage layout
Typing test profiles: typeracer.com / hi-games.net / keybr.com

Offline treigle

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A Kinesis Advantage fan tries the TrulyErgonomic keyboard
« Reply #37 on: Mon, 02 April 2012, 13:32:08 »
Boli, I'll likely try out an arrow arrangement like yours sometime, the mousing argument being a very good one! :)

Shifting the numbers would be an option, but I've found them to be pretty intuitive right where they are, and though I was worried about dis-contiguity between -_ and =+ keys, I haven't yet found it to be a problem. Being a nerd, I always kind of wanted the numbers to start with 0 on the left, but it's not worth messing up parentheses for...
Kinesis Advantage, Truly Ergonomic (ANSI), Filco 87

Offline treigle

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A Kinesis Advantage fan tries the TrulyErgonomic keyboard
« Reply #38 on: Thu, 07 June 2012, 01:16:28 »
I ended up not really liking the invert T arrangement on the Kinesis, as the relocated <>/ keys are a pain to deal with when switching back and forth between the Kinesis and "normal" keyboards. Furthermore, it makes Linux command-line stuff noticeably more awkward, requiring a same-finger sequence for "./" in pathnames for example.

Swapping up/down to the left side and left/right to the right side of the board has worked really nicely for me though. I find it somehow more intuitive than the default layout, and it lets me scroll with the left hand while using the trackball with the right. I tried Boli's arrow arrangement, and it didn't suit me, probably just because I'm not really a VI user...

The Kinesis feels just a little more comfortable/natural than the TE overall, and slightly more efficient for word processing. Still, I'm not ready to sell the TE just yet, and admit to preferring it's arrow arrangement and of course function keys.
Kinesis Advantage, Truly Ergonomic (ANSI), Filco 87

Offline djcybermyth

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A Kinesis Advantage fan tries the TrulyErgonomic keyboard
« Reply #39 on: Thu, 14 June 2012, 11:06:11 »
I actually started to get "emacs pinky" from having the control keys located in the default position on this board, so I swapped the control and alt keys on the left and right sides which has helped greatly.  I can now karate-chop the control key which is very comfortable.  Interestingly, I had this problem on a standard keyboard awhile back when I was using the pinky for control, but after I learned the karate-chop method, my pinky felt fine.

I've also found the for programming, having the _- key on the middle (delete key of the TE104) makes a lot of sense because I use _ in place of space for a lot of things and now I can hit it with either hand.  I moved the ~ back to the far left top and used the top center key as delete.

Offline treigle

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A Kinesis Advantage fan tries the TrulyErgonomic keyboard
« Reply #40 on: Mon, 18 June 2012, 19:46:19 »
Quote from: djcybermyth;613362
I can now karate-chop the control key which is very comfortable.  Interestingly, I had this problem on a standard keyboard awhile back when I was using the pinky for control, but after I learned the karate-chop method, my pinky felt fine.

Interesting! I assume you karate chop the control on the opposite side as the key you're combining it with (ie Ctrl-C would use a right handed karated chop on Control)? When I try to karate-chop with the same hand, it's very crunched, and I don't have huge hands.
Kinesis Advantage, Truly Ergonomic (ANSI), Filco 87

Offline djcybermyth

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A Kinesis Advantage fan tries the TrulyErgonomic keyboard
« Reply #41 on: Tue, 19 June 2012, 14:00:25 »
Quote from: treigle;616593
Interesting! I assume you karate chop the control on the opposite side as the key you're combining it with (ie Ctrl-C would use a right handed karated chop on Control)?

Definitely.  I tend to try and use hotkeys and shortcuts for most things, so having a two handed ctrl-c or ctrl-z fits my normal workflow (a lot of emacs).  I have noticed that occasionally, I'll still use my left pinky for copy and paste operations if I'm having to use the trackball for something.

It's weird, but since I've switched alt and ctrl, I don't tend to get mixed up with my shortcuts as easily.  Somehow having the shift and crtl right next to each other was hard for my muscle memory to get right.  With the karate chop, the movements are very distinct and I seem to have greater accuracy overall.

The biggest inconvenience with the alt key position in general has been alt-tab, which is almost certainly a two handed operation on the TE because of its tab placement.  It's usually not that big of a problem, but if you are trying to make a change, switch windows, make a change, switch windows, it feels a little tricky.

Offline erw

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A Kinesis Advantage fan tries the TrulyErgonomic keyboard
« Reply #42 on: Wed, 20 June 2012, 15:55:13 »
How does "chopping" work?
Kinesis Advantage LF (MX Red), Kinesis Advantage (MX Brown), Colemak

Offline djcybermyth

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A Kinesis Advantage fan tries the TrulyErgonomic keyboard
« Reply #43 on: Wed, 20 June 2012, 19:35:31 »
It works like this:

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as taken from http://xahlee.org/emacs/emacs_pinky.html

Offline sordna

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A Kinesis Advantage fan tries the TrulyErgonomic keyboard
« Reply #44 on: Wed, 20 June 2012, 19:38:59 »
Aha, yet another case for palm keys!

Using them right now, they are great!
Kinesis Contoured Advantage LF with Cherry MX Red switches / Extra keys mod / O-ring dampening mod / Dvorak layout. ErgoDox with buzzer mod.
Also: Kinesis Advantage Classic, Kinesis Contoured Model 110, Data911 TG3, Fingerworks Touchstream LP, KBC Poker (Cherry MX Red), IBM Space Saving keyboard (Buckling spring), Goldtouch GTU-0077 keyboard