Author Topic: Model M Vet -> Cherry Brown  (Read 4619 times)

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Offline rknize

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Model M Vet -> Cherry Brown
« on: Mon, 06 February 2012, 21:29:20 »
Sorry this is so long-winded.  I had posted some of this elsewhere this weekend, but the posts disappeared (along with my account) due to the database rollback.

I've been using Model M and Unicomp keyboards for almost 20 years.  My daily driver at work is a "blue label" that I bought new in 1994 from the newly-opened Best Buy near my home.  I paid $100 for that sucker, but I loved the feel of the old terminal keyboards at college so much that I felt it was worth it.  It has certainly lasted!  I had it at work for a while until co-workers arrived at my cube with pitch forks and torches (or left anonymous notes) complaining about my clickity-clacking.  I switched to a "Microsoft Natural" keyboard and a Trackman there and at home to keep the natives happy and to try to address some wrist pain issues I was having.  I wore two of those keyboards out and eventually realized that switching to a trackball and fixing my posture was what helped my wrists the most.  Eventually I experimented with "grease modding" the Model M and found a method that quiets the board enough to avoid being tarred and feathered while still maintaining most of the keyboard's feel and speed that I love.  At home I have various keyboards, but even a greased Unicomp does not have enough WAF to permit its use in our upstairs office.  So I've been using a Saitek Eclipse II for the past few years.  It was the best feeling rubber dome keyboard I could find in the stores around me and has a backlight feature that is useful sometimes.  I was using some cheapo AT keyboard before that, but it actually felt quite nice.  It had a longer stroke and lighter feel than any other dome keyboard I've tried since.  It wore out after a few years, though.

Lately, I've been having some stiffness in my hands that I attribute to my keyboard at home.  It got better after I brought one of the Unicomps up from the basement, so I ditched the Saitek.  I started looking if there were any other options besides the Model M for mechanical keyboards.  Something that my wife might be willing to tolerate.  Last week I found this forum and my head exploded with information.  I know more than I ever wanted to know about Cherry switches, Topre, etc...LOL.

I decided that browns were the safest bet for transitioning from a Modem M, so I ordered a Rosewill RK9000BR.  It seemed to be the cheapest way to give these Cherry keys a fair shot on a quality board.  If they proved too loud, I figured I could add o-rings.  It arrived this morning (thanks, NewEgg).  I've been using it at work all day and also brought it back home.  The word that best describes my first impression of the browns is "scratchy".  I'm surprised how rough the key movement is.  Some keys are worse than others.  I suspected that might be the case after watching YouTube videos of keyboards all weekend (my wife thought I was nuts).  Does this tend to improve at all with time?

Aside from that and the somewhat smallish control keys, I am fairly happy with the keyboard.  It feels very sturdy and solid while typing, unlike the squishy, bouncy Saitek.  The scratchiness of the keys is less noticeable when typing at speed, but the Model M is like a well oiled machine by comparison.  The key feel is lighter than my lesser-used Unicomp boards, but less so when compared to my high-mileage Model M.  The lighter keys do seem to allow me to achieve greater speed when typing text (such as this post), once I stop hitting them so hard.  The scratchiness comes through when doing more deliberate things, like debugging and navigating through code.

I played a bit of Minecraft earlier this evening and didn't like it at all.  The rough movement is particularly distracting.  Part of it seems to come from the tactile bump, but the key has an overall rough feel throughout the entire movement.  I'll probably have some time to play some Skyrim tonight, so we'll see how that goes.

I really felt like the tactile feel was going to be important for me coming from a Model M, but not I am not so sure.  Doing some searches about the rough feel of Cherry MXs, it seems to be a common issue for all types.  I was tossing around the idea of trying out some reds, but I have a feeling they will not be all that different (minus the bump).  I want to get a 2nd board for home and leave this one at work.  Maybe something Tenkeyless.  The backlight was nice sometimes, but it's not strictly necessary.  I was looking at the Leopold at EliteKeyboards.  Then there are those Realforce boards, but holy cow!  I didn't balk at the ~$100 for the Rosewill...I spent about that much as a poor college student back in 1994 ($150 in today's dollars).  But $300?  Even more for fewer keys on the Tenkeyless?  I dunno.
Russ

Offline Roguemaster8

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Model M Vet -> Cherry Brown
« Reply #1 on: Mon, 06 February 2012, 21:48:42 »
Welcome to Geekhack!

I've heard similar things about the grittiness of brown switches, but don't let it deter you from other Cherry MX switches. Blue switches probably would have been better choice as they are similar to buckling springs, but not quite as loud.
The reds are a linear switch, not so great for typing, but much better for Minecraft and Skyrim.
The $300 boards you found were topre switch boards, basically a high quality rubber dome with a spring underneath the dome for higher tactility. And they're capacitive, so there's no need to actuate the key all the way down.

Having been here for only a month, I hope this was all accurate information. Anyone care to confirm if I this was all correct?
« Last Edit: Mon, 06 February 2012, 21:53:48 by Roguemaster8 »
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Offline rknize

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Model M Vet -> Cherry Brown
« Reply #2 on: Mon, 06 February 2012, 23:31:08 »
Yeah, I read about the Topre switches on the Realforce/HHKB.  The conical springs likely give it a very nice feel.  I've seen/used an HHKB in the past, but I didn't like it (neither the layout nor the feel).  I imagine it was probably a pre-Topre model, though.  This Rosewill reminds me a great deal of the keyboard on our first home PC (Xerox 820).
Russ

Offline quickcrx702

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Model M Vet -> Cherry Brown
« Reply #3 on: Mon, 06 February 2012, 23:43:21 »
I agree about the browns having a kind of scratchy feeling when typing slowly or gaming.  However, when typing quickly they feel great, to me at least.  You would think that reds and browns should feel similar, but to me they feel nothing alike.  Realforce on the other hand feels great to me whether typing slowly or quickly.  I would say that the 55g Realforce feels about 50% better than a cherry brown(my second favorite) for 2x-3x the price.  It's worth a try, but you get less bang for the buck.

Offline rknize

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Model M Vet -> Cherry Brown
« Reply #4 on: Mon, 06 February 2012, 23:47:00 »
Does the Cherry Brown seem to have a lighter feel than the 55g Topre?  The spec would suggest so, but the resistance is more than just the spring weight.  My Model M is supposed to be 70g, but I haven't done the nickel test on it.  It's got a lot of mileage on it, too.

I agree that while typing fast, the MX browns feel good.
Russ

Offline quickcrx702

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Model M Vet -> Cherry Brown
« Reply #5 on: Mon, 06 February 2012, 23:58:13 »
Yes.  My brown leopold is much lighter than my 55g topre, although they both feel great.  The 55g also feels completely different, about as different as a cherry, vs a rubber dome, vs a buckling spring.  Keep in mind that to me key weighting is not an issue, I'm more concerned about the general feel.  Example: buckling springs and cherry blacks that some people I've seen here write are too stiff, don't bother me at all as far as weight is concerned.

Offline rknize

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Model M Vet -> Cherry Brown
« Reply #6 on: Tue, 07 February 2012, 00:04:00 »
Fair enough.  I'm fine with buckling springs too.  I just notice myself typing with a bit more ease on this thing.  I guess I should give it some more time before spending any more money.
Russ

Offline rknize

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Model M Vet -> Cherry Brown
« Reply #7 on: Tue, 07 February 2012, 01:29:32 »
Skyrim wasn't too bad.  Had some trouble now and then, but I'm not sure why yet.
Russ

Offline laffindude

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Model M Vet -> Cherry Brown
« Reply #8 on: Tue, 07 February 2012, 02:19:00 »
It does break in. Give it a week or 2 of typing.

Offline rknize

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Model M Vet -> Cherry Brown
« Reply #9 on: Tue, 14 February 2012, 13:52:25 »
So now I am typing on reds.  I just got a CM Storm Quick Fire Rapid with red Cherry switches.  I got it because I didn't like the feel of the browns while gaming.  Typing on it is a little weird.  It's not as soft as I was expecting.  Even though the reds and the brown are rated similarly, I was expecting the extra force to get over the tactile hump on the browns would make the reds seem lighter.  In fact the opposite is true.  The "relief" of getting past the tactile bump is missing and it makes it feel like I am doing more work.  Strange.

The keycaps are cheesy and cheap, but otherwise the board is very solid.  Very obviously built like the Rosewill.
Russ

Offline flyball

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Model M Vet -> Cherry Brown
« Reply #10 on: Tue, 14 February 2012, 13:54:28 »
any reason why you didnt just buy a unicomp
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Offline rknize

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Model M Vet -> Cherry Brown
« Reply #11 on: Tue, 14 February 2012, 14:06:18 »
I have two of them.  The reason is buried in my rambling, original post.  Basically, Model M/Unicomps have insufficient WAF.
Russ

Offline Roguemaster8

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Model M Vet -> Cherry Brown
« Reply #12 on: Tue, 14 February 2012, 14:08:40 »
Uh oh, I hope they at least have sufficient GAF.

Not that it matters, she would sleep through an atomic bomb.
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Offline rknize

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Model M Vet -> Cherry Brown
« Reply #13 on: Tue, 14 February 2012, 14:19:33 »
The Rosewill and CMStorm are borderline with the noise, which is the main issue behind the WAF (besides "why do you have all these keyboards?").  I intend to resolve the noise issue with o-rings.
Russ

Offline Findecanor

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Model M Vet -> Cherry Brown
« Reply #14 on: Tue, 14 February 2012, 16:57:15 »
I recommend Key Tronic. If you are in the US, then you can still get new ones, I hear.
Topre Realforce are Japanese-made high-quality rubber domes with N-key roll over and actuation in the middle of the stroke, etc. Key Tronic keyboards are made cheaper but the key feel is a lot the same, I think.

Offline rknize

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« Reply #15 on: Tue, 14 February 2012, 16:59:55 »
Thanks, I'll look into it.
Russ

Offline fohat.digs

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Model M Vet -> Cherry Brown
« Reply #16 on: Tue, 14 February 2012, 20:40:18 »
I have never tried the grease mod, but flossing quiets the springs quite a bit, and setting the board on a good rubber mat will dampen it some more.

You might give it a try, it doesn't cost more than $5 and it may tone it down just enough to keep you out of trouble.
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Offline rknize

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Model M Vet -> Cherry Brown
« Reply #17 on: Tue, 14 February 2012, 22:52:22 »
Yeah, I hadn't seen the floss mod until I saw it here in the Wiki.  Looks interesting...I may give it a try on one of the Unicomps.
Russ

Offline o2dazone

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Model M Vet -> Cherry Brown
« Reply #18 on: Tue, 14 February 2012, 22:59:23 »
Quote from: Findecanor;514519
I recommend Key Tronic. If you are in the US, then you can still get new ones, I hear.
Topre Realforce are Japanese-made high-quality rubber domes with N-key roll over and actuation in the middle of the stroke, etc. Key Tronic keyboards are made cheaper but the key feel is a lot the same, I think.

We have a couple Keytronics at work, and I can say finger rolling on one and then immediately on Topre switches they're nothing alike. They are snappier of the rubber domes though...

Offline rknize

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Model M Vet -> Cherry Brown
« Reply #19 on: Tue, 14 February 2012, 23:01:04 »
I think I do like the Cherry MX reds for gaming.  A lot.  The smoother action is much less distracting than the browns.  I think I like it even better than the buckling-springs.  The extra WASD keys that come with the CM Storm are very cheap feeling.  They appear to be made the same way as the black keys, but they seem to lack the coating and have an even more hollow sound than the rest of the keys.  Overall, this keyboard would be great with some better caps.

This is also my first TKL, now that I think about it (if you don't count laptops).  It's a bit weird going from the mouse to the nav keys, but I think I can get used to it.
Russ

Offline seven714

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Model M Vet -> Cherry Brown
« Reply #20 on: Wed, 15 February 2012, 02:14:06 »
nice post! I got DAS brown at home. Absolutely love it.

What do your coworkers say about the noise with cherry brown?

Offline rknize

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« Reply #21 on: Wed, 15 February 2012, 10:06:22 »
It's nothing compared to the Model M, LOL.  So far, no complaints.  The board pings a fair amount, but that should go away with some o-rings.  It happens when certain keys bottom-out.  The steel plate really transmits the vibration.
Russ

Offline rknize

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« Reply #22 on: Wed, 15 February 2012, 11:11:35 »
You mean my OP?  I think it ended up being longer the 2nd time because I condensed two posts into one.  :p

So far this forum hasn't been so bad, compared to others I am on.  S/N is curiously high.
Russ

Offline LaPoune

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Model M Vet -> Cherry Brown
« Reply #23 on: Thu, 16 February 2012, 00:51:42 »
If you get the chance you should try out a topre...I was pretty much in you position having typed on a modem M for a long time and I was greatly disappointed when I tried cherries for the first time because of how the switch stiffens up with travel instead of "giving up" at the beginning of the stroke like the model M and topre...would have saved me a bunch of money getting the topre first instead of a bunch of cherries of all colors that I don't use anymore
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Offline rknize

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« Reply #24 on: Thu, 16 February 2012, 00:57:41 »
The thought has crossed my mind, but the price is a big investment.  I'd probably want a 45g uniform version too, but I only see that in TKL (which is even *more* expensive).
Russ

Offline LaPoune

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Model M Vet -> Cherry Brown
« Reply #25 on: Thu, 16 February 2012, 01:03:32 »
Yeah...I was lucky enough to try one out in japan before buying it...if you can find someone with that little keychain switch that could possibly tell you if you like it...

I too thought that I wouldn't like the variable weighted but after getting used to it I much prefer it to my HHKB's which are obviously all 45g...they feel tiring to type on compared to the variable
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Offline rknize

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« Reply #26 on: Thu, 16 February 2012, 01:26:10 »
Sounds comfortable, but I'm not so sure about gaming.  It seems like they resell pretty well, but I know myself.  I am a pack rat and I'll just end up keeping it "in case".  I've already bought 2 Cherry MX boards since coming here and am probably about to buy a Poker.  Ugh...it was a mistake to come here.
Russ

Offline LaPoune

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Model M Vet -> Cherry Brown
« Reply #27 on: Thu, 16 February 2012, 16:16:50 »
I play games a lot, and when I first started using it I would accidentally press the A key (it's either 30 or 35g) when playing with WASD, but after a week I got used to it and it never happens anymore...but yeah, kinda hard to buy without trying
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Offline jpc

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Model M Vet -> Cherry Brown
« Reply #28 on: Thu, 16 February 2012, 16:32:11 »
OP: The browns will smooth out with age.

Browns are THE switch to have if you feel stiffness in your hands, nothing else is as comfy and gentle. There's a reason they use browns in the Kinesis Contoured.

RSI prevention recipe:[/B] Kinesis Contoured, Colemak layout, touch typing, Contour Design Rollermouse,  Logitech TrackMan Wheel, Logitech m570 trackball, "workrave" break timer software, "awesome" window manager, tenkeyless boards, cherry browns, Wang 724 with "ghetto green" ALPS, standing desk and/or comfy adjustable chairs, stress reduction, computer time reduction.

Fun non-ergonomic things: bolt modded Model M Space Saving Keyboards with new springs, Kensington Expert Mouse v7, Unicomp Endurapro, Northgates

Offline Surly73

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Model M Vet -> Cherry Brown
« Reply #29 on: Tue, 21 February 2012, 17:24:55 »
Quote from: jpc;516421
OP: The browns will smooth out with age.

Browns are THE switch to have if you feel stiffness in your hands, nothing else is as comfy and gentle. There's a reason they use browns in the Kinesis Contoured.

Agreed.  My browns were gritty when new but there's no sign of that now in the main area of the keyboard.

Offline rknize

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« Reply #30 on: Tue, 21 February 2012, 17:33:37 »
Indeed, it has improved over the past few weeks.  It's fairly smooth to type on, now.  The CM Storm with reds is the rough one now.  I don't type on our all that much, but it has been improving as well.
Russ