Another quiet mechanical keyboard thread

[Findecanor]

I didn't see anybody say it before, but: you could get a cheap Dell AT101W and a AEKII and transplant the switches .. or just the sliders from the AEKII to the Dell keyboard.

My own AT101W has dampened sliders from a AEKII but springs and click leaves from a third keyboard to get clicky dampened switches. It is quieter than my dampened Cherry Blues, but I like the Cherry Blues better because the click point is lower down in the stroke, they are smoother on off-center key presses and the starting force is higher while still being quite soft. The Cherry MX switches have higher starting forces simply because they have a longer springs which are in tension when the switches are at rest. You can't get the same feeling with shorter springs.

[fohat.digs]

Grimey did that here

http://geekhack.org/showthread.php?32362-My-AT101W-Collection

and seemed to get a result that he was pleased with.

edit - oops, sorry, he was already down there. I had skipped a page

[Daniel Beardsmore]

Apple uses laser etching on all their keyboards and they look great.

You mean that your technique has improved since the TP3?

Like I said, the key to laser is to have good quality plastic, have the laser set correctly, and not ink-fill it.  The ink-fill will always wear off.

How does that work on black? WASD uses plastic that lightens from laser heating, but from what I've seen you just don't get anything remotely close to the pure white of pad printing or doubleshot, or the black of dye sub. Take the first image on their Gallery page: white comes out beige, and black comes out mid grey. That seems to be a really bad shot of the black, though, but the "white" comes out almost Topre gold in some photos.

The lasering on the TP3 is just scorched plastic grey, and rough, basically the same as the Dell AT102W from the mid 90s. I seem to recall that the Apple Wired Aluminium keyboard looks good, but I don't have mine to hand.

White laser lettering is always infilled, but it stains readily.

If you know how to use a puller, they come right off.  :-)

No, they don't. ALPS caps are exceptionally tight, though once you've removed a cap you can find that it comes off a lot easier the next time – Acers work like that.

[Daniel Beardsmore]

Grimey did that here

http://geekhack.org/showthread.php?32362-My-AT101W-Collection

and seemed to get a result that he was pleased with.

I picked up an NTC 6153EN earlier, XT/AT switchable 102-key, "FOR 8088 & 80286" according to the label. I didn't realise until later that it's [strike]Type II Simplified[/strike] Type IV Simplified, surprising to see simplifieds in something that old. I realised something was wrong after I noticed that it felt very similar to my Acers, and then spotted the dreadful four tabs around the switch The switches have a fantastic resonant sound and a warm, melodic ping, almost as good as complicated blues, but it has that nasty XM feel. Not as bad as brand new XMs, but I can't tell how worn it is – all the keycaps still have their surface texture pattern, so it's either lightly used or really good plastic.

I'm really curious what it is that has been done to make XMs nice, as opinions on the green XMs are universally positive.

I'm glad to read that Matias ALPS will be coming out in "loud" versions (I presume that means undamped, rather than clicky), as Fukka is a good switch and something needs to replace them, although it sounds like XM could do the trick if you want actual clicky switches as I do at home. Except why green? Green means linear

Definitely buying the new Matias though, hopefully the ISO version will hop over to Keyboardco in short order

[didjamatic]

No, they don't. ALPS caps are exceptionally tight, though once you've removed a cap you can find that it comes off a lot easier the next time – Acers work like that.

It depends on the how tight the caps are, what environment it's been used/stored in and your technique in removing them.  With ALPS it's more important to pull them straight up than Cherries, but most can be easily removed if you do it correctly.  And I rarely used a key cap puller, just used the flat head screwdriver/bottle opener tool on a Leatherman Squirt and I could strip a keyboard in a fraction of the time it takes with key cap pullers.   The secret is to use your non-prying hand to assure the cap is coming straight up from the keyboard.  If you do that you'll seldom snap off stems or switches.

[FoxWolf1]

I'm really curious what it is that has been done to make XMs nice, as opinions on the green XMs are universally positive.

I'm glad to read that Matias ALPS will be coming out in "loud" versions (I presume that means undamped, rather than clicky), as Fukka is a good switch and something needs to replace them, although it sounds like XM could do the trick if you want actual clicky switches as I do at home. Except why green? Green means linear

Ehh, from my experience with a Ducky 1008XM, the Green XMs aren't that great. I mean yeah, they're kind of fun to use-- the click is very satisfying-- but they're not actually very good from a more practical perspective. Extreme wobbliness plus a high activation point meant that I was making far too many errors when typing (and during RTS gaming), while the return wasn't fast enough for them to be a first-class FPS or arcade-game switch. Oh, and they're not terribly durable, either. All in all, I wouldn't buy another keyboard with them.

For actual use, the tactile blacks in my D07 are significantly better.

[Daniel Beardsmore]

It depends on the how tight the caps are, what environment it's been used/stored in and your technique in removing them.  With ALPS it's more important to pull them straight up than Cherries, but most can be easily removed if you do it correctly.

I do pull straight up with a wire keypuller. They're just notoriously stiff – something about the keycap interface. Just figured that maybe there was a way to make them easier to remove, given how many people have trouble with ALPS caps.

[Matias]

Saw the eye from Matias' avatar but wasn't really focusing on it. Just came to me it's the Bladerunner opening scene eye belonging to special effects guy Richard Rippel. Nice avatar.

Thanks.  :-)

Bladerunner was the first movie I ever saw that changed my outlook on the future.  Totally blew my mind!

[Matias]

I do pull straight up with a wire keypuller. They're just notoriously stiff – something about the keycap interface. Just figured that maybe there was a way to make them easier to remove, given how many people have trouble with ALPS caps.

Oh, maybe that's why.  Better to use a plastic puller...

1)  Put your index finger through the ring.

2)  Push the puller overtop of the keycap.

3)  Pinch the prongs together with your thumb and middle finger, then pull straight up swiftly.

The trick is pinching the prongs together before you pull up.  That approach works for me every time.

[Matias]

What name will Matias' new keyboard switch have?

We haven't decided on the name yet, but you can call them Matias Orange and Matias White switches for now -- whites being the traditional clicky ones.

Will the switch's casing be compatible with Alps? Same size spring?

Externally, they are identical in size and pin position to ALPS.  Internally, the spring spec is different and the leaf cavity is a little tighter (to eliminate noise).

[Matias]

One more weird thing, the nubs aren't on F, J, they are on D and K because Steve Jobs liked to be different.

Actually, Steve wasn't at Apple at that time.

The reason for the nubs on D and K was to be consistent with the nub on the number pad -- all under the middle finger.

[TexasFlood]

We haven't decided on the name yet, but you can call them Matias Orange and Matias White switches for now -- whites being the traditional clicky ones.

Externally, they are identical in size and pin position to ALPS.  Internally, the spring spec is different and the leaf cavity is a little tighter (to eliminate noise).

Nice, I think a lot of us were wondering about pin compatibility with old ALPS which I don't recall having seen addressed earlier in this thread. Now I would have expected them to be pin compatible but never good to assume anything. Not hard to imagine some of us replacing some clacky XMs with these from what you've described. Thanks.

[Matias]

I'm glad to read that Matias ALPS will be coming out in "loud" versions (I presume that means undamped, rather than clicky), as Fukka is a good switch and something needs to replace them,

Yes, we expect our switch will replace whatever is left of the Fukka market.  The loud (white) switch will be clicky and undampened.  The quiet (orange) switch will be dampened and tactile.

You can recreate the feel of the old Black ALPS by matching up the leaf of an orange switch with the slider of a white.

Definitely buying the new Matias though, hopefully the ISO version will hop over to Keyboardco in short order

Tell them you want them and see what they say...  :-)

[Daniel Beardsmore]

You can recreate the feel of the old Black ALPS by matching up the leaf of an orange switch with the slider of a white.

Complicated black ALPS is horrible – why would I want to do that?

Tell them you want them and see what they say...  :-)

Wait … there are no plans yet for Keyboardco to add the board to the existing range of Matias products that they carry? Are they even aware of this board yet?

[Matias]

Complicated black ALPS is horrible – why would I want to do that?

Actually, I really liked the Simplified Black ALPS, but we don't expect there will be much demand for them.  They would be in-between White and Orange for tactility and noise.

Wait … there are no plans yet for Keyboardco to add the board to the existing range of Matias products that they carry? Are they even aware of this board yet?

Well, technically the product is not announced yet.  I don't think our sales manager has talked to them about it yet.

[Matias]

Nice, I think a lot of us were wondering about pin compatibility with old ALPS which I don't recall having seen addressed earlier in this thread. Now I would have expected them to be pin compatible but never good to assume anything. Not hard to imagine some of us replacing some clacky XMs with these from what you've described. Thanks.

Yes, I've already gotten one PM from a GHer wanting to buy switches for their existing boards.  The new switches are definitely pin compatible with original ALPS and XM.

[Djuzuh]

When and where will we be able to buy the switchs? .

[False_Dmitry_II]

Yes, I've already gotten one PM from a GHer wanting to buy switches for their existing boards.  The new switches are diffinitely pin compatible with original ALPS and XM.

I'm not surprised. There's generally not much on the market being currently made that isn't just cherry. Some people don't like those much.

[Daniel Beardsmore]

I may be getting confused, as on double-checking, this video is of the original Extended Keyboard, so it's tactile and non-damped, which is why it doesn't sound damped

[video=youtube;afSz616PpwM]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=afSz616PpwM[/video]

It will be interesting to see if we ever get another undamped tactile ALPS keyboard again – the only one in recent years seems to be the ABS M1. The AT102W doesn't quite live up to the precise sound that I was expecting, as it sounds a bit loose and muffled.

However, with the high-pitched ping removed from the new switches, could we see the return to the deep but warm resonance of blue complicated ALPS? My FILCO Zero XM had a very empty, dry sound that lacked the character that even a good tactile switch should have, such as the AEK. Type IV simplified (which I just picked up on Sunday) seems to be in the middle in terms of sound.

[cactux]

would you be able to provide some charts comparing your switches against the mx (blue,red,brown, black) and the topres?. It will be nice to see them all of them side by side

[Matias]

I may be getting confused, as on double-checking, this video is of the original Extended Keyboard, so it's tactile and non-damped, which is why it doesn't sound damped

[video=youtube;afSz616PpwM]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=afSz616PpwM[/video]

It will be interesting to see if we ever get another undamped tactile ALPS keyboard again – the only one in recent years seems to be the ABS M1. The AT102W doesn't quite live up to the precise sound that I was expecting, as it sounds a bit loose and muffled.

However, with the high-pitched ping removed from the new switches, could we see the return to the deep but warm resonance of blue complicated ALPS? My FILCO Zero XM had a very empty, dry sound that lacked the character that even a good tactile switch should have, such as the AEK. Type IV simplified (which I just picked up on Sunday) seems to be in the middle in terms of sound.

The closest to this is Black ALPS.  It is tactile, but doesn't click and is not dampened.  The sound is from bottoming out, and the upstrokes.

You could create this by putting together our Orange click leaf with the slider from our White switch.

[Matias]

would you be able to provide some charts comparing your switches against the mx (blue,red,brown, black) and the topres?. It will be nice to see them all of them side by side

What would you want shown in the charts?

[Matias]

When and where will we be able to buy the switchs? .

They'll be available when the actual keyboards ship -- in about 2 months.  You'll be ablt to buy them directly from our website

[cactux]

^ The activation forces of your switch, beside the MXs and Topres

[TexasFlood]

What would you want shown in the charts?

^ The activation forces of your switch, beside the MXs and Topres

Something like these but for the New Matias switch?

Cherry MX Brown


ALPS

[cactux]

Are both units the same in both charts? What about red, black, blue mx

[TexasFlood]

They are in PDFs at the Cherry web site, in the wikis here and other places.

For example, below from WASD

[TexasFlood]

Are both units the same in both charts? What about red, black, blue mx

I believe units are the same yes.

The charts are available in PDFs at the Cherry web site, in the wikis here and other places.

For example, below from WASD

[hasu]

They'll be available when the actual keyboards ship -- in about 2 months.  You'll be ablt to buy them directly from our website

Great!
I'm excited at new switches. I'll keep my eyes open to watch this thread and your site.

BTW, I'm a fan of your Matias half-qwerty method. I tried a half-qwerty layer on my DIY keyboard and I became a fan of it.

[TexasFlood]

BTW, I'm a fan of your Matias half-qwerty method. I tried a half-qwerty layer on my DIY keyboard and I became a fan of it.

Thanks for mentioning that. Guess I've been in a cave, never heard of this but googled it and pretty cool stuff.

[Matias]

Something like these but for the New Matias switch?

Cherry MX Brown

Show Image

ALPS

Show Image

Yes, we'll be including force charts like these when we release the final spec sheet for the new switches.

We weren't planning on doing charts comparing to Cherry and Topre, but I suppose we could release those separately.  We were more focused on capturing/improving the traditional ALPS feel than relating them in any way to how Cherry or Topre switches feel -- people who like those can buy the real thing.

[Matias]

Are both units the same in both charts? What about red, black, blue mx

Cherry uses cN (centinewtons) as the unit of measure in their charts, while ALPS has traditionally used gf (gram force), but they're almost the same.

cN = gf x 0.980665

Here's a calculator...  http://www.conversion-website.com/force/gram-force_to_centinewton.html

[Matias]

BTW, I'm a fan of your Matias half-qwerty method. I tried a half-qwerty layer on my DIY keyboard and I became a fan of it.

Thanks!

I'm still a little disappointed that it didn't catch on in a bigger way, but I guess one-handed typing is cooler in theory than in practice.  :-)

[Matias]

Thanks for mentioning that. Guess I've been in a cave, never heard of this but googled it and pretty cool stuff.

You're not alone in that cave.  :-)

There's a flash demo here, if you want to try it...  http://www.matias.ca/halfkeyboard/demo

[didjamatic]

Actually, Steve wasn't at Apple at that time.

The reason for the nubs on D and K was to be consistent with the nub on the number pad -- all under the middle finger.

Ha, I never thought of that but you're right.  Schooled.

[Matias]

Ducky is on the fence on whether or not to continue producing the XM switch keyboards.  They might like to discontinue them and use these instead.  It also wouldn't compete with the Matias product because I doubt you will sell a tenkeyless version.

We're not worried about competition.  We have our customers and they have theirs.  If they want to buy our switches, we're happy to sell them to Ducky.

XMs were never very good.  I think the only reason they ever got made was because Fuhua didn't care enough about Fukkas not to let them die.  There's lots of great legacy technology out there, but if the people in control don't give a sh*t (or aren't competent), it can disappear and companies can die.  Most companies are run by golfers.

[Matias]

Ha, I never thought of that but you're right.  Schooled.

I'm just glad everyone ultimately agreed on one standard.

[Daniel Beardsmore]

Hm ... I just set up my complicated blue ALPS keyboard for a few minutes. Bearing in mind that I've been using Cherry MX brown all day, it's surprisingly stiff and heavy-going, almost as bad as Type IV simplifieds.

I disconnected it and plugged in my TP3 instead as a comparison – Fukkas are definitely lighter in force. The top-heavy force curve is still tough on your fingers, but it's noticeably lighter than old blues.

How do tactile Matias ALPS compare to Fukkas in feel?

I was, and still am considering trying MX clears, which are reported to be stiffer but no more tactile than browns, which sounds good, as you wouldn't get that tripping-over-your-own-fingers problem with the lightness, nor the jarring of sharp tactile points (clicky ALPS and less so Cherry blues), likewise it's not linear, which I don't care for.

[Matias]

The new switches are lighter than the TP3, and feel more consistent.  Fukkas are rated at 70±25 gf -- which means they can be as heavy as 95 gf and as light as 45 gf.  Not the greatest.

Our new switches are rated at 60±5 gf -- which means they're between 55 and 65 gf.  That's just enough to hold the weight of your fingers on the keyboard.

If it's so light that it doesn't have enough resistance to hold the weight of your hands, then YOU are actually exerting force to prevent the keys going down -- which is VERY bad.  You get tired quicker and are more susceptible to injury.

This is why I don't like the lighter Cherrys.  Unless you have really light hands, they don't provide enough resistence to hold them up.

[Djuzuh]

The new switches are lighter than the TP3, and feel more consistent.  Fukkas are rated at 70±25 gf -- which means they can be as heavy as 95 gf and as light as 45 gf.  Not the greatest.

Our new switches are rated at 60±5 gf -- which means they're between 55 and 65 gf.  That's just enough to hold the weight of your fingers on the keyboard.

If it's so light that it doesn't have enough resistance to hold the weight of your hands, then YOU are actually exerting force to prevent the keys going down -- which is VERY bad.  You get tired quicker and are more susceptible to injury.

This is why I don't like the lighter Cherrys.  Unless you have really light hands, the lighter switches don't provide enough resistence to hold them up.

That's very interesting, I've never thought about this ! I just don't hold my fingers all the time above the keys xD.

Also, will you provide a cheap board wiith those new switchs? not necessarely of bad quality, just the bare minimum to get a low priced brand new mechanical keyboard

[TexasFlood]

Saw the eye from Matias' avatar but wasn't really focusing on it. Just came to me it's the Bladerunner opening scene eye belonging to special effects guy Richard Rippel. Nice avatar.

Thanks.  :-)

Bladerunner was the first movie I ever saw that changed my outlook on the future.  Totally blew my mind!

You inspired me, found some wallpaper and put that big eye as background on my tablet.  Bladerunner is a classic, told my son to go see Prometheus as it is the first Science Fiction from Ridley Scott since Bladerunner 30 years ago.

[Matias]

Also, will you provide a cheap board wiith those new switchs? not necessarely of bad quality, just the bare minimum to get a low priced brand new mechanical keyboard

How cheap do you mean?

[Matias]

You inspired me, found some wallpaper and put that big eye as background on my tablet.  Bladerunner is a classic, told my son to go see Prometheus as it is the first Science Fiction from Ridley Scott since Bladerunner 30 years ago.

Yes, Prometheus is looking very good.  Same attention to detail that helped make the first one great.

[Djuzuh]

How cheap do you mean?

I don't have a specific number in my head. Maybe approximately 50$ if it's possible ?

Just a basic working alps keyboard.

[Matias]

$50 is less than a distributor would pay, so no that's not possible.

Depending on features and country of manufacture, a mechanical keyboard costs approximately 3x to 5x what a rubber dome keyboard would cost to make.

At $50 end customer cost, you're in rubber dome territory.

[Djuzuh]

We've seen some rosewell deals at ~56$ and some new cherry keyboards sell at ~50€ in europe. And your switchs seemed to cost less than cherry MX switchs

BTW: if you are interested in using GH as some sort of communication medium, you could ask to get a vendor subforum !
This way, your visibility will rise, and I'll know where I can follow your announcements

[didjamatic]

We've seen some rosewell deals at ~56$ and some new cherry keyboards sell at ~50€ in europe. And your switchs seemed to cost less than cherry MX switchs

BTW: if you are interested in using GH as some sort of communication medium, you could ask to get a vendor subforum !
This way, your visibility will rise, and I'll know where I can follow your announcements

Are you seriously hounding a manufacturer who designed a keyboard from the ground up including redesign of mechanical switches to justify charging over $50 for a keyboard?  

Go design your own keyboard from scratch including switches and sell it for $50.

[Djuzuh]

Are you seriously hounding a manufacturer who designed a keyboard from the ground up including redesign of mechanical switches to justify charging over $50 for a keyboard?  

Go design your own keyboard from scratch including switches and sell it for $50.

I never meant to be the slightest way mean or whatever to him. I'm just interested in his thoughts, and tried to hold a conversation, as I*have much respect for him and his products. My words are only driven by curiosity.

If I*appeared to have any other intention, please excuse myself, and allow me to blame the fact I'm not a native english speaker. Even though I'm perfectly able to express myself, I don't have enough practice to perceive the little details which give out the tone of my phrases. That, or it was just clumsiness and/or social ineptie from my side.

[Djuzuh]

Both the Rosewill and Cherry 3800 are pieces of crap.  For every defective Filco there are 10 Rosewill's with snapped USB connectors and mushy switches (despite everyone assuming the same factory does the same number of QC checks on both boards.)

Until a competitor comes out with a quiet tactile mechanical switch that rivals this, Matias should set prices to where he can make a profit and stay in business.

Thank you. That's sort of what I wanted to know. I wasn't aware of those differences. I've only heard positive reviews from those boards.

[Matias]

We've seen some rosewell deals at ~56$ and some new cherry keyboards sell at ~50€ in europe. And your switchs seemed to cost less than cherry MX switchs

Well, they're certainly free to do that if they like.  If they want to buy our switches and make a cheapie board, that's up to them.

However, I can tell you they're not making very much with prices that low, and there's no way they can have resellers.  They'd have to sell direct from their website, like Dell.

BTW: if you are interested in using GH as some sort of communication medium, you could ask to get a vendor subforum !
This way, your visibility will rise, and I'll know where I can follow your announcements

Thanks.  Will have to look into that.