Author Topic: [IC] Sindarin (elven) set - Group Buy Coming on 14-Dec-2012  (Read 88724 times)

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Offline Matt3o

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[IC] Sindarin (elven) set - Group Buy Coming on 14-Dec-2012
« on: Sun, 23 September 2012, 03:19:27 »
It's a long time that I'm toying with the idea of an elf keyset. It would be based on Tolkien's Sindarin or Quenya.

The following is a Quenya example:

4693-0

Quenya is sharper, Sindarin is rounder, but they are very close.

We have a pretty extensive dictionary of elven words, so it might be possible to write most the modifier keys. (Eg: Control = tortho). For the words we don't have a translation we might choose the closer alternative (we will have to be creative here).

Also the numbers are pretty nice:

4695-1

Do you keyboard gurus think that something like this would be feasible? There would be interest in a Sindarin keyboard?
« Last Edit: Fri, 30 November 2012, 08:14:03 by samwisekoi »

Offline tipo33

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Re: [IC] Sindarin (elven) set
« Reply #1 on: Sun, 23 September 2012, 09:32:21 »
If it were to be done through Signature Plastics we would be held up by the $45 per key fee, to make the mold.  If we had trouble raising money for a Cherry replica font,  this would be even more difficult.  Lol.   That said, you could look into dye sublimation.  There have been a few group buys for them recently, and i believe Imsto can do custom legends if the order is big enough.  Me being the geek that I am,  I would probably purchase a set.
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Offline Matt3o

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Re: [IC] Sindarin (elven) set
« Reply #2 on: Sun, 23 September 2012, 09:38:09 »
I believe dye sub would be the only way. to make a double shot we would need an incredibly high order.

colors of course need to be in the green/beige/brown/orange/grey range. I'll do some tests if there's interest.

Legend could also be with double notation (sindarin+ansi).

Offline tipo33

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Re: [IC] Sindarin (elven) set
« Reply #3 on: Sun, 23 September 2012, 09:57:34 »
I was hoping for Sindarin + Klingon :)
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Offline Matt3o

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Re: [IC] Sindarin (elven) set
« Reply #4 on: Sun, 23 September 2012, 10:05:23 »
well, Aurek-Besh would also be nice... :) maybe next time

Offline 1391401

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Re: [IC] Sindarin (elven) set
« Reply #5 on: Sun, 23 September 2012, 10:49:39 »
I was hoping for Sindarin + Klingon :)
For ULTIMATE novelty I think we should have elvish, klingon and aurebesh all on one key
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Offline longweight

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Re: [IC] Sindarin (elven) set
« Reply #6 on: Sun, 23 September 2012, 10:51:40 »
Please no ANSI legends!

Offline tipo33

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Re: [IC] Sindarin (elven) set
« Reply #7 on: Sun, 23 September 2012, 10:58:03 »
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Offline Matt3o

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Re: [IC] Sindarin (elven) set
« Reply #8 on: Sun, 23 September 2012, 11:01:59 »
Please no ANSI legends!

I agree with you, but if that is what it needs to get this done...

Offline Findecanor

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Re: [IC] Sindarin (elven) set
« Reply #9 on: Sun, 23 September 2012, 11:05:33 »
It would be based on Tolkien's Sindarin or Quenya.
...
Quenya is sharper, Sindarin is rounder, but they are very close.

Quenya and Sindarin are languages, not writing systems ("alphabets").

The most common "alphabet" for elvish languages is called Tengwar. It is used for both Sindarin and Quenya, hence the similarities between text in those languages. ;)

You would however have to choose which language to use for textual legends on modifiers, if you are going to use text at all. Personally, I think that it would be nice to have some nice symbols. Arrows that look like arrows you can shoot, etc.
« Last Edit: Sun, 23 September 2012, 11:09:48 by Findecanor »

Offline Matt3o

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Re: [IC] Sindarin (elven) set
« Reply #10 on: Sun, 23 September 2012, 11:07:08 »
I didn't want to be pedantic, but thanks for pointing that out :)
« Last Edit: Sun, 23 September 2012, 12:19:43 by Matt3o »

Offline Kaysa

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Re: [IC] Sindarin (elven) set
« Reply #11 on: Sun, 23 September 2012, 12:16:10 »
I m quite interested to get one,
if it be around $60ish,
for full base kit if possible,
either subdye or Double shot is fine by me.

In my humble opinion:
I agree with the no ANSI Legend part,
since we mostly are able to touch typing,
the legend are for decorating purpose,
a normal ANSI mix would spoil the mood.
some wooden/forest/nature color scheme would be nice.
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Offline Matt3o

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Re: [IC] Sindarin (elven) set
« Reply #12 on: Sun, 23 September 2012, 13:02:15 »
Some color ideas based on SP PBT colors. Very rough tests.

Offline longweight

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Re: [IC] Sindarin (elven) set
« Reply #13 on: Sun, 23 September 2012, 13:09:13 »
Love the brown and green!

Offline longweight

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Re: Re: [IC] Sindarin (elven) set
« Reply #14 on: Sun, 23 September 2012, 13:10:48 »
It would be based on Tolkien's Sindarin or Quenya.
...
Quenya is sharper, Sindarin is rounder, but they are very close.

Quenya and Sindarin are languages, not writing systems ("alphabets").

The most common "alphabet" for elvish languages is called Tengwar. It is used for both Sindarin and Quenya, hence the similarities between text in those languages. ;)

You would however have to choose which language to use for textual legends on modifiers, if you are going to use text at all. Personally, I think that it would be nice to have some nice symbols. Arrows that look like arrows you can shoot, etc.

FACT.

Love it.

Offline Matt3o

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Re: [IC] Sindarin (elven) set
« Reply #15 on: Sun, 23 September 2012, 13:17:09 »
Personally, I think that it would be nice to have some nice symbols. Arrows that look like arrows you can shoot, etc.

agreed! would be nice to have relevant symbols on ESC, arrows, backspace and so on. I'll keep working on this in the next few days

various images we can use as legend








« Last Edit: Sun, 23 September 2012, 13:28:45 by Matt3o »

Offline Elrick

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Re: [IC] Sindarin (elven) set
« Reply #16 on: Sun, 23 September 2012, 21:56:12 »
Love the brown and green!

Reminds me of the Nestle Aero Bar with Chocolate and Green air bubbles which I loved as a child.

Please make this soon, as I will buy a couple to go on some keyboards to help hold onto some decent childhood memories which are all too few.

Thanks for doing this, although I would appreciate having normal English Fonts on the caps....... but that Elvin language seems way too complicated for me.

Offline Acanthophis

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Re: [IC] Sindarin (elven) set
« Reply #17 on: Sun, 23 September 2012, 22:33:48 »
Oh oh...
My wallet doesn't like where this is heading :D

Offline Elrick

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Re: [IC] Sindarin (elven) set
« Reply #18 on: Sun, 23 September 2012, 23:22:43 »
Oh oh...
My wallet doesn't like where this is heading :D

Don't worry once it develops another hole it doesn't need to use, you'll get use to that type of treatment here on Geekhack (or Prison).  :-*

Offline sth

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Re: [IC] Sindarin (elven) set
« Reply #19 on: Sun, 23 September 2012, 23:24:56 »
i would be totally into a leaf of lorien key... a whole elvish set probably not so much. big fan of LoTR but as far as physical effects go I prefer to keep my nerdy appreciation relegated to hunting down a nice hardcover set.

plus elves would never use cherry MX, they're topre fans all the way. or better yet hall effect.
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Offline hashbaz

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Re: [IC] Sindarin (elven) set
« Reply #20 on: Mon, 24 September 2012, 00:42:44 »
I happen to be watching Fellowship at this exact instant!  I don't usually go for stuff like this but some elvish keys could be amazing.

A full 87-key set is a stretch, but a number row and/or some individual symbol keys would be doable I think.

I think we should try for doubleshots.  They just look cleaner and better.  Regardless, I would love to do SVGs.  Just let me know.
« Last Edit: Mon, 24 September 2012, 00:45:49 by hashbaz »

Offline Matt3o

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Re: [IC] Sindarin (elven) set
« Reply #21 on: Mon, 24 September 2012, 01:14:39 »
okay, so let's try to come out with some symbol keys to be double shot. It might attract more people and it could more easily be a successful group buy. thought?

Offline Kaysa

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Re: [IC] Sindarin (elven) set
« Reply #22 on: Mon, 24 September 2012, 01:33:00 »
The all green and brown+green look great....
would green modifiers+light brown(ochre) alphabet key look good?

4753-0

This color matching look like some Elven Jewelry with Emerald and Gold...
what do you all think about this?
« Last Edit: Mon, 24 September 2012, 01:56:06 by Kaysa »
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Offline Matt3o

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Re: [IC] Sindarin (elven) set
« Reply #23 on: Mon, 24 September 2012, 01:56:46 »
as far as I can tell SP doesn't have light brown as PBT

Offline Kaysa

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Re: [IC] Sindarin (elven) set
« Reply #24 on: Mon, 24 September 2012, 02:39:20 »
IC...

How about from the sample you created,
the dark green modifiers in the all green sets,
match with the brown as modifiers?

can you try to create one with this match?

I test my layout in the WASD Keyboards site,
they do not have the different green,
nor brown for selection.
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Offline Matt3o

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Re: [IC] Sindarin (elven) set
« Reply #25 on: Mon, 24 September 2012, 02:55:20 »
I have to review all the colors if we go doubleshot with a standard legend + some special elvish keys. In ABS we have a nice ocher color but only a very dark brown (they might go well together in a double shot, though).

Unfortunately I only have a very bad picture of the ABS color set, does anyone have the real color samples at hand?

Offline Kaysa

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Re: [IC] Sindarin (elven) set
« Reply #26 on: Mon, 24 September 2012, 11:36:37 »
In my humble opinion, the standard legend are not necessary......
that will spoil the whole Elvish feel...
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Offline Matt3o

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Re: [IC] Sindarin (elven) set
« Reply #27 on: Mon, 24 September 2012, 11:50:01 »
the options are:

1) full keyboard, PBT, dye sub, alpha tengwar/quenya + elvish symbols
2) full keyboard, ABS, double shot, alpha standard ansi + elvish symbols
3) symbols only ABS, double shot (just make some special elvish keys)

Offline Appeac

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Re: [IC] Sindarin (elven) set
« Reply #28 on: Mon, 24 September 2012, 12:11:49 »
Count me as heavily interested in a tengwar 87 set.

Not so big on the foresty themed colors, I'd like it to look as professional as possible. Maybe white on a flat colored green set, no modifiers. Or match the CCnG set colors.
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Offline Matt3o

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Re: [IC] Sindarin (elven) set
« Reply #29 on: Mon, 24 September 2012, 12:17:36 »
I agree on keeping it as professional as possible, but I believe we have to make something distinctive (ie: no CCnG clone)

Offline Appeac

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Re: [IC] Sindarin (elven) set
« Reply #30 on: Mon, 24 September 2012, 12:37:40 »
I agree on keeping it as professional as possible, but I believe we have to make something distinctive (ie: no CCnG clone)

White mods and green alphas. :P
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Offline boost

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Re: [IC] Sindarin (elven) set
« Reply #31 on: Mon, 24 September 2012, 12:40:21 »
These look nice
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Offline Appeac

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Re: [IC] Sindarin (elven) set
« Reply #32 on: Mon, 24 September 2012, 12:51:16 »
the options are:

1) full keyboard, PBT, dye sub, alpha tengwar/quenya + elvish symbols
2) full keyboard, ABS, double shot, alpha standard ansi + elvish symbols
3) symbols only ABS, double shot (just make some special elvish keys)

Sorry didn't see this.

I'd go #1, Dyesub with no english. Assuming this is the cheaper option. I'd go ABS DS, whichever's cheaper.
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Offline merijn

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Re: [IC] Sindarin (elven) set
« Reply #33 on: Mon, 24 September 2012, 13:47:51 »
I would love a set, but I'm afraid I won't have much money :<

Offline tadbitnerdy

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Re: [IC] Sindarin (elven) set
« Reply #34 on: Mon, 24 September 2012, 14:03:35 »
I would love a set, but I'm afraid I won't have much money :<

Same here :(

Offline Scirocco

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Re: [IC] Sindarin (elven) set
« Reply #35 on: Mon, 24 September 2012, 21:01:23 »
Green and brown and the Sindarin would be pretty cool. Not sure I'd be able to purchase more than one set, but I'd definitely be interested.

Offline Kaysa

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Re: [IC] Sindarin (elven) set
« Reply #36 on: Tue, 25 September 2012, 00:46:56 »
I vote for:
1) full keyboard, PBT, dye sub, alpha tengwar/quenya + elvish symbols.
No alphabet.
but that's my own preference, the majority have it say.
even the color are for reference only, if majority doesn't like it,
then make it other color.
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Offline weasle425

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Re: [IC] Sindarin (elven) set
« Reply #37 on: Sun, 28 October 2012, 12:09:47 »
My wallet hates you but i'm very interested

Offline esoomenona

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« Reply #38 on: Mon, 29 October 2012, 10:09:25 »
.
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Offline samwisekoi

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Re: [IC] Sindarin (elven) set
« Reply #39 on: Mon, 05 November 2012, 13:15:59 »
Two things:

1) This is not going to be anyone's primary keyboard, so why not also investigate pad-printing and silkscreening? 
(IMHO, double-shot would be cool but just silly cost-wise.)

2) Is there a TrueType font set we could use for viewing and printing? 
(IIRC from my Simarillian days, the character count and mutations don't match Roman particularly well, especially the backwards-looking, multi-character mutations.)*

 - Ron (Gúrgon) | samwisekoi

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Offline The_Beast

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Re: [IC] Sindarin (elven) set
« Reply #40 on: Mon, 05 November 2012, 13:25:21 »
Double shot would be insane on prices because those are all new legends, so +$45 each key. Dye sub would be the best because there is no legend fees. Maybe talk to lysol and piggy back on his PBT GB, but be warned it's 100% white with no colored mods


Pad printing and silkscreening are not going to sell because no one wants them
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Offline hashbaz

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Re: [IC] Sindarin (elven) set
« Reply #41 on: Mon, 05 November 2012, 13:38:31 »
IIRC, pad printing from SP is actually pretty expensive.  That and no one wants it.

Offline The_Beast

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Re: [IC] Sindarin (elven) set
« Reply #42 on: Mon, 05 November 2012, 13:39:43 »
IIRC, pad printing from SP is actually pretty expensive.  That and no one wants it.

More than cutting new legends?
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Offline theultrazord

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Re: [IC] Sindarin (elven) set
« Reply #43 on: Mon, 05 November 2012, 14:03:10 »
So lysol is working on a groupbuy for cherry profile thick PBT keycaps. http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=31861.0

My question is if you can get an interest for at least 30 sets why not contact lysol and ask if they can add the elven set as an option to the dyesub selection?

With the options being presented already you are already going to be paying a lot so why not get some really nice quality keys out of it?

Offline Matt3o

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Re: [IC] Sindarin (elven) set
« Reply #44 on: Tue, 06 November 2012, 01:38:28 »
I might try to make a test layout and ask SP for a quote, but I'm afraid there won't be enough interest for a group buy.

Offline esoomenona

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« Reply #45 on: Tue, 06 November 2012, 01:47:32 »
.
« Last Edit: Mon, 21 September 2015, 14:49:47 by esoomenona »

Offline samwisekoi

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Re: [IC] Sindarin (elven) set
« Reply #46 on: Tue, 06 November 2012, 09:27:56 »
I might try to make a test layout and ask SP for a quote, but I'm afraid there won't be enough interest for a group buy.

I haven't looked at Elvish writing since modern keyboards (heck, modern computers) came out.  And most of the available fonts and keyboard layouts were made before 2005, and seem to be designed to fit comfortably with the way one would compose by hand.  In particular, the modifiers used for vowels (and decimal numbers) are treated as ASCII symbols placed over or under other symbols.  And the keyboard mappings reflect that approach.

I first learned to write in the Sindarin mode reflected in the thread title. However, after doing some research, I think that a better mode for a modern writer using a modern computer would be the English "Mode of Beleriand" as used by Tom Bombadil.  (Ref TengwarHelp.pdf page 30).  Further, contrary to the conventions established by Dan Smith (in whose shadow the modern Elvish writer should always tremble) I think the keyboard mapping would be easier to use if it followed the conventions of (e.g.) an ANSI International keyboard using the AltGr as a composition key to place the modifiers.

So this doesn't seem like heresy, think of such an approach as Dvorak for Tengwar.

Such a modification of convention would mean the Tengwar characters for the "S" sound (Silme) would be placed on the S key ("s" and "S") instead of on the 8 and i keys.  Also, the decimals 0-9 could be placed on the 0-9 keys.

Admittedly, this approach is more useful to phonetic transliteration than precise rendering of correct Sindarin for text already translated into Elvish.  But truthfully, most people who bother with Elvish at all translate their own name, perhaps a saying or two, and the inscription on the Ring.  Few people write e-mails in proper Elvish.

Anyhow, I might play with the above and use a Tengwar font to mock up a keyboard that I could have made by WASD.

IMHO, such a keyboard would be useful -- well, "interesting -- to more people than an "academically-correct" version.

Sorry for the pedantry, but what do other Tengwar users think about this?

 - Ron (Gúrgon) | samwisekoi
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Offline Matt3o

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Re: [IC] Sindarin (elven) set
« Reply #47 on: Tue, 06 November 2012, 09:41:13 »
IMHO, such a keyboard would be useful -- well, "interesting -- to more people than an "academically-correct" version.

Sorry for the pedantry, but what do other Tengwar users think about this?

Totally agree.

Admittedly it's more an aesthetic whim than the need of a keyboard to write in elvish.

Some of the fonts in the site you linked are not available, I've found this http://tengwar.art.pl/tengwar/fonty.php which seems to have them all. Some are really nice.

Offline samwisekoi

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Re: [IC] Sindarin (elven) set
« Reply #48 on: Tue, 06 November 2012, 10:20:07 »
IMHO, such a keyboard would be useful -- well, "interesting" -- to more people than an "academically-correct" version.

Sorry for the pedantry, but what do other Tengwar users think about this?

Totally agree.

Admittedly it's more an aesthetic whim than the need of a keyboard to write in elvish.

Some of the fonts in the site you linked are not available, I've found this http://tengwar.art.pl/tengwar/fonty.php which seems to have them all. Some are really nice.

Excellent.  I linked to the least broken site I could find -- that wasn't in Polish.  However, with Google Translate at my side, I see what you mean.  And I see that others have tried to make a font set to map to a "normal" keyboard layout.

I'll play with some of those a bit.

Thanks!

- Ron (Gúrgon) | samwisekoi
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Offline samwisekoi

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Re: [IC] Sindarin (elven) set
« Reply #49 on: Tue, 06 November 2012, 15:50:39 »
Partial mapping (work in process) based on suggestions above.

Decimal numbers and primary characters are mapped next to approximate equivalent Latin letters/phonemes.

Vowels, punctuation and secondary characters are not yet mapped.

Empty spaces indicate I have not yet mapped anything there.  Jagged lines indicate I forgot to turn spell-check off before taking the screen-shot.

 - Ron | samwisekoi
I like keyboards and case modding.  Everything about a computer should be silent -- except the KEYBOARD!

'85 IBM F-122/Soarer Keyboard |  Leopold FC200 TKL (Browns) + GH36 Keypad (Browns/Greens) | GH-122 (Whites/Greens) with Nuclear Data Green keycaps in a Unicomp case