Author Topic: The Living Soldering Thread  (Read 1854306 times)

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Offline CommonCurt

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Re: The Living Soldering Thread
« Reply #2350 on: Sat, 25 October 2014, 04:06:07 »
I'm considering getting this for my first soldering iron.  Has anyone had any experience with it to know if it's a decent product?

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00FZPUENI/ref=pd_luc_sbs_01_02_t_lh?ie=UTF8&psc=1

I would be getting it for learning purposes, and to do some switch, and maybe led removal/swapping. 

Some of Ye ole  Keyboards -->
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OTD Koala:  62g Old MX-Blacks   |   LZ-GH V2:  MX-?62g   |   KMAC2:   62g Tactile MX-Greys   |   LZ CLS s:   62g Vintage MX-Blacks   |   X60:   62g Vintage MX-Blacks   |   GON NerD 60:  62g Old MX-Clears   |   Filco MJ2 (Beige) TKL's:  62g MX-Clears  &   62g Vintage MX-Blacks   |   IBM '91 SSK
                                
       
WTB/WTS/WTT ---->
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Offline jacobolus

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Re: The Living Soldering Thread
« Reply #2351 on: Sat, 25 October 2014, 04:23:52 »
Starting with a cheap soldering iron could really make your life miserable. I don’t have any particular experience with that one though.

Offline tjcaustin

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Re: The Living Soldering Thread
« Reply #2352 on: Sat, 25 October 2014, 15:19:39 »
I'm considering getting this for my first soldering iron.  Has anyone had any experience with it to know if it's a decent product?

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00FZPUENI/ref=pd_luc_sbs_01_02_t_lh?ie=UTF8&psc=1

I would be getting it for learning purposes, and to do some switch, and maybe led removal/swapping.

I don't have any experience with the dash stuff either, but the quick glance I did at reviews looks solid.

Offline CommonCurt

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Re: The Living Soldering Thread
« Reply #2353 on: Sat, 25 October 2014, 16:30:25 »
I'm considering getting this for my first soldering iron.  Has anyone had any experience with it to know if it's a decent product?

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00FZPUENI/ref=pd_luc_sbs_01_02_t_lh?ie=UTF8&psc=1

I would be getting it for learning purposes, and to do some switch, and maybe led removal/swapping.

I don't have any experience with the dash stuff either, but the quick glance I did at reviews looks solid.

Yeah from the reviews I've read, it sounds at least decent. 

The 15watt Dash is rated at 370C, and I read the the best temp for Kester 44 is around 350C. 

They also have a 20watt Dash rated at 420C, and a 25watt rated at 450C.    So I figured the 15watt would be the best choice.
Some of Ye ole  Keyboards -->
More
OTD Koala:  62g Old MX-Blacks   |   LZ-GH V2:  MX-?62g   |   KMAC2:   62g Tactile MX-Greys   |   LZ CLS s:   62g Vintage MX-Blacks   |   X60:   62g Vintage MX-Blacks   |   GON NerD 60:  62g Old MX-Clears   |   Filco MJ2 (Beige) TKL's:  62g MX-Clears  &   62g Vintage MX-Blacks   |   IBM '91 SSK
                                
       
WTB/WTS/WTT ---->
More

Offline mkawa

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Re: The Living Soldering Thread
« Reply #2354 on: Mon, 27 October 2014, 22:05:51 »
What a normal Soldapullt should look like: 4:30 - 4:35
More

Completely compressed when opened and unplunged. Maximum suction.

My second ever ruined Soldapullt, ruined in the same way this time as the first time
Show Image

Outstretched when opened and unplunged. No suction.

What might have happened, as I understand it
Sometimes I'll stop doing DIY projects for 5-6 months at a time, so my Soldapullt stays tucked away, uncleaned. When picking it back up, I'll find that the thin middle "rod" part had stuck to the tip assembly when the leftover, uncleaned solder had hardened over the course of those few months. Since the spring portion moves along with that rod, it had remained outstretched that whole time. I suppose then it just loses its ability to stay as compressed as it was before.

(Also, in these two times, I've proceeded to panic when I don't see the proper suction, try to rotate to open it, see that it's just completely stuck to the tip and try to pull further, which stretches out the spring even further. I was finally able to get it open this time by prying out the tip assembly which was completely stuck to the end of the "rod", but sadly, it was already unusable by this point.)

Possible takeaways for when I get my next
- Keep the Soldapullt clean
- Don't take too long between uses
- (?) Keep the barrel separated from the rear assembly when storing
the third one isn't necessary. the first one is definitely necessary. however, what's making the gasket stick is actually the condensed and solidified flux and not the solder. solder in a soldapullt turns into either big slugs or little flakes. however, some part of the flux fumes will actually recondense into flux, and when it does, it will be nasty hard flux without much moisture. hence, the gasket will stick.

lesson: never force a soldapullt open or closed. soldapullts are extremely simply machines. there's a spring, a rod and a plunger. if the plunger sticks and you push or pull too hard, you're going to kill the spring or the rod.

lesson: flux condenses in soldapullts and makes the mechanisms stick. there are two great ways to loosen a stuck soldapullt up. 1) run warm soapy water through it to soften and wash away enough flux to actuate the plunger without damaging anything 2) put a mild solvent into the tip to dissolve the hardened flux. isopropyl is what i would recommend here. acetone or any other ketone will destroy the plastic. short stints of isoprop will not cause damage to the plastic. important! don't use solvents with a standard edsyn soldapullt, only with the GH krytox-lubricated soldapullts.

to all the brilliant friends who have left us, and all the students who climb on their shoulders.

Offline mkawa

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Re: The Living Soldering Thread
« Reply #2355 on: Mon, 27 October 2014, 22:13:09 »
fun fact: you can also kill a hakko 808 by filling the plunger full of flux and solder. ask tjcaustin how i know  :p

to all the brilliant friends who have left us, and all the students who climb on their shoulders.

Offline HoffmanMyster

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Re: The Living Soldering Thread
« Reply #2356 on: Mon, 27 October 2014, 22:14:55 »
fun fact: you can also kill a hakko 808 by filling the plunger full of flux and solder. ask tjcaustin how i know  :p

You can also ask Lastpilot about killing 808s.  :P   :-X :-X

Offline Parak

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Re: The Living Soldering Thread
« Reply #2357 on: Tue, 28 October 2014, 12:58:01 »
Looked at a few reviews.   $600 is a more than I want to spend.      I can see pulling apart and putting together a couple of keyboards 4 or 5 times over the winter figuring out what I like best but after that the tools may sit in a box or go for sale on kijiji in the spring.

Honestly the Xytronic is, in my opinion, maybe only worth a third of what it goes for. It's all chinese generic quality parts - for example the hot air and iron combo can get for something like $50 in small quantities from the vendor. Desoldering addon is of course not worth $550. Unfortunately, all in one options from proper vendors are even more expensive if getting them retail, though the difference between them and the china generics is like night and day. While I don't think one needs hot air for generic (non-qfn/bga and such) smd soldering and occasional desoldering is perfectly fine with a pump, you do want a high quality main iron if you're spending that much money. Look on ebay for used pace stations with td-100 or metcal/oki mfr series, both being usually fairly inexpensive. Feel free to pm me for specific recommendations.

Offline tjcaustin

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Re: The Living Soldering Thread
« Reply #2358 on: Tue, 28 October 2014, 13:23:41 »
fun fact: you can also kill a hakko 808 by filling the plunger full of flux and solder. ask tjcaustin how i know  :p

You can also ask Lastpilot about killing 808s.  :P   :-X :-X

I burnt the crap out of my foot cleaning out my 808 the last time I thought I'd killed it.  *And* shocked myself putting it back together.  I wish the edsyn versions were anywhere close to financially smart for me to get.  Same with their hot air stations.

Offline radio_killah

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Re: The Living Soldering Thread
« Reply #2359 on: Tue, 28 October 2014, 15:03:09 »

Offline tjcaustin

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Re: The Living Soldering Thread
« Reply #2360 on: Tue, 28 October 2014, 15:10:30 »
Which of these two would you guys recommend?

This: http://sra-solder.com/aoyue-968a-4-in-1-digital-hot-air-rework-and-soldering-station/

or

This: http://www.amazon.com/Hakko-Digital-FX888D-CHP170-bundle/dp/B00AWUFVY8/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1414526508&sr=8-1&keywords=hakko+888

Also re-working the suggestions would be appreciated I'm sure!

Go hakko.  The only reason I want hot air is I want to get into offering more SMD soldering services for my business, or I'd never touch it.  And I wouldn't touch it at that price.

Offline radio_killah

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Re: The Living Soldering Thread
« Reply #2361 on: Tue, 28 October 2014, 15:16:42 »
Which of these two would you guys recommend?

This: http://sra-solder.com/aoyue-968a-4-in-1-digital-hot-air-rework-and-soldering-station/

or

This: http://www.amazon.com/Hakko-Digital-FX888D-CHP170-bundle/dp/B00AWUFVY8/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1414526508&sr=8-1&keywords=hakko+888

Also re-working the suggestions would be appreciated I'm sure!

Go hakko.  The only reason I want hot air is I want to get into offering more SMD soldering services for my business, or I'd never touch it.  And I wouldn't touch it at that price.

Quick question what is SMD? Is hot air required for it? Also LED's are no problem with a regular soldering iron like the  Hakko fx888 right?

Offline tjcaustin

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Re: The Living Soldering Thread
« Reply #2362 on: Tue, 28 October 2014, 15:19:02 »
Which of these two would you guys recommend?

This: http://sra-solder.com/aoyue-968a-4-in-1-digital-hot-air-rework-and-soldering-station/

or

This: http://www.amazon.com/Hakko-Digital-FX888D-CHP170-bundle/dp/B00AWUFVY8/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1414526508&sr=8-1&keywords=hakko+888

Also re-working the suggestions would be appreciated I'm sure!

Go hakko.  The only reason I want hot air is I want to get into offering more SMD soldering services for my business, or I'd never touch it.  And I wouldn't touch it at that price.

Quick question what is SMD? Is hot air required for it? Also LED's are no problem with a regular soldering iron like the  Hakko fx888 right?

surface mount devices.  hot air isn't required, but makes the job a lot easier.  It depends on the LEDs as they come in both through hole (the kind with legs like in the comic posted earlier) or smd.  For a small time deal, a normal iron works ok for smd so you'd still be ok, just more tedious and skill intensive.

Offline ceflame

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Re: The Living Soldering Thread
« Reply #2363 on: Tue, 28 October 2014, 15:20:38 »
Which of these two would you guys recommend?

This: http://sra-solder.com/aoyue-968a-4-in-1-digital-hot-air-rework-and-soldering-station/

or

This: http://www.amazon.com/Hakko-Digital-FX888D-CHP170-bundle/dp/B00AWUFVY8/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1414526508&sr=8-1&keywords=hakko+888

Also re-working the suggestions would be appreciated I'm sure!

Go hakko.  The only reason I want hot air is I want to get into offering more SMD soldering services for my business, or I'd never touch it.  And I wouldn't touch it at that price.

Quick question what is SMD? Is hot air required for it? Also LED's are no problem with a regular soldering iron like the  Hakko fx888 right?

I just had my first experience with SMD soldering and I only did it with $20 iron from amazon. I'd recommend getting some solder paste though, makes it a lot easier in my opinion.

Offline HoffmanMyster

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Re: The Living Soldering Thread
« Reply #2364 on: Tue, 28 October 2014, 15:21:10 »
Which of these two would you guys recommend?

This: http://sra-solder.com/aoyue-968a-4-in-1-digital-hot-air-rework-and-soldering-station/

or

This: http://www.amazon.com/Hakko-Digital-FX888D-CHP170-bundle/dp/B00AWUFVY8/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1414526508&sr=8-1&keywords=hakko+888

Also re-working the suggestions would be appreciated I'm sure!

Go hakko.  The only reason I want hot air is I want to get into offering more SMD soldering services for my business, or I'd never touch it.  And I wouldn't touch it at that price.

Quick question what is SMD? Is hot air required for it? Also LED's are no problem with a regular soldering iron like the  Hakko fx888 right?

SMD = Surface Mount Device, and is usually smaller and flatter than the alternative.  Frequently soldered by robots, but can be hand-soldered just fine with enough patience/experience.

Hot air is not required, but it does make it easier.  Handling such small devices and keeping control of the soldering iron is not a task I'd recommend for the novice (though you *can* do it; you would be forced to learn quick :P ).

Some LEDs are SMD, some are through-hole.  Both can be soldered with the fx888.  Through-hole will be much easier.  And of course, if we're talking about LEDs that are going through Cherry switches, it will be through-hole.

Offline swill

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Re: The Living Soldering Thread
« Reply #2365 on: Tue, 28 October 2014, 16:39:28 »
Which of these two would you guys recommend?

This: http://sra-solder.com/aoyue-968a-4-in-1-digital-hot-air-rework-and-soldering-station/

or

This: http://www.amazon.com/Hakko-Digital-FX888D-CHP170-bundle/dp/B00AWUFVY8/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1414526508&sr=8-1&keywords=hakko+888

Also re-working the suggestions would be appreciated I'm sure!

Go hakko.  The only reason I want hot air is I want to get into offering more SMD soldering services for my business, or I'd never touch it.  And I wouldn't touch it at that price.

Quick question what is SMD? Is hot air required for it? Also LED's are no problem with a regular soldering iron like the  Hakko fx888 right?

As others have said, definitely not required.  I have soldered two boards with all smd resistors and diodes and I did fine with my fx888.  I have to admit that I learned a lot in the process.  In my build log (specifically the 75% board) I have some tips/tricks for doing smd with a standard iron.  Probably pretty useless for people who have done it before, but as a n00b, I found these tricks pretty helpful...

http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=58969.msg1349714#msg1349714

Offline mkawa

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Re: The Living Soldering Thread
« Reply #2366 on: Tue, 28 October 2014, 16:59:49 »
my view on this is that chinese soldering gear is _dangerously_ low quality, and the more parts that are involved, the more dangerous these stations get. the most basic point to make here is that you're buying a tool that gets REALLY EFFING HOT. i have a point on my left pinky that has ZERO radial fingerprint because at some point when I was screwing around with something incredibly hot, i burned it off. for perspective, i sell soldering gear, and i cover my workstation with carbon fiber textile and insulation so that i don't light my lab on fire when i inevitably drop something incredibly hot.

if you were vaporizing organic solvents in a chemistry lab, would you buy the cheapest fume hood that you could find? no.

so why cut corners on a tool that can get hot enough to melt most tin and nickel alloys? money is an ephemeral, tradable thing. your life and health, unfortunately are not.

to all the brilliant friends who have left us, and all the students who climb on their shoulders.

Offline swill

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Re: The Living Soldering Thread
« Reply #2367 on: Tue, 28 October 2014, 17:05:57 »
my view on this is that chinese soldering gear is _dangerously_ low quality, and the more parts that are involved, the more dangerous these stations get. the most basic point to make here is that you're buying a tool that gets REALLY EFFING HOT. i have a point on my left pinky that has ZERO radial fingerprint because at some point when I was screwing around with something incredibly hot, i burned it off. for perspective, i sell soldering gear, and i cover my workstation with carbon fiber textile and insulation so that i don't light my lab on fire when i inevitably drop something incredibly hot.

if you were vaporizing organic solvents in a chemistry lab, would you buy the cheapest fume hood that you could find? no.

so why cut corners on a tool that can get hot enough to melt most tin and nickel alloys? money is an ephemeral, tradable thing. your life and health, unfortunately are not.

I tend to agree with this.  Just to add a little personal experience on this.  I bought a knock off version (like an aoyue) and it died on me after only using it 3 times.  Luckily I was able to take it back to the shop I bought it from and basically said WTF and they took it back and gave me credit towards a fx888 which I have been using since.  The fx888 is pretty good, but if I buy another iron I will probably spend a bit more and buy something that is very good.  Unfortunately, to get from pretty good to very good you have to more than double your budget, so the fx888 is just going to have to be good enough for me for now.

Offline dorkvader

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Re: The Living Soldering Thread
« Reply #2368 on: Tue, 28 October 2014, 17:06:41 »
my view on this is that chinese soldering gear is _dangerously_ low quality, and the more parts that are involved, the more dangerous these stations get. the most basic point to make here is that you're buying a tool that gets REALLY EFFING HOT. i have a point on my left pinky that has ZERO radial fingerprint because at some point when I was screwing around with something incredibly hot, i burned it off. for perspective, i sell soldering gear, and i cover my workstation with carbon fiber textile and insulation so that i don't light my lab on fire when i inevitably drop something incredibly hot.

if you were vaporizing organic solvents in a chemistry lab, would you buy the cheapest fume hood that you could find? no.

so why cut corners on a tool that can get hot enough to melt most tin and nickel alloys? money is an ephemeral, tradable thing. your life and health, unfortunately are not.

Agreed wholeheartedly. That's why I only recommend Pace/metcal/JBC and some Edsyn (and a few others). Having the right tool for the job is crucial. I was once cutting out an acrylic backplate with a pocketknife (wrong tool). It slipped of course and I almost cut off my left index finger. I had no feeling in it at all for about a week. Now I have some of the feeling back, but it's not going to be like it was.

Quality tools are important. If you can't afford them then you should try to borrow some. Anyone in the Boston area is free to use my tools and workspace should they want.

Offline Motan22

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Re: The Living Soldering Thread
« Reply #2369 on: Wed, 29 October 2014, 03:42:18 »
Which of these two would you guys recommend?

This: http://sra-solder.com/aoyue-968a-4-in-1-digital-hot-air-rework-and-soldering-station/

or

This: http://www.amazon.com/Hakko-Digital-FX888D-CHP170-bundle/dp/B00AWUFVY8/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1414526508&sr=8-1&keywords=hakko+888

Also re-working the suggestions would be appreciated I'm sure!

Go hakko.  The only reason I want hot air is I want to get into offering more SMD soldering services for my business, or I'd never touch it.  And I wouldn't touch it at that price.

Quick question what is SMD? Is hot air required for it? Also LED's are no problem with a regular soldering iron like the  Hakko fx888 right?

As others have said, definitely not required.  I have soldered two boards with all smd resistors and diodes and I did fine with my fx888.  I have to admit that I learned a lot in the process.  In my build log (specifically the 75% board) I have some tips/tricks for doing smd with a standard iron.  Probably pretty useless for people who have done it before, but as a n00b, I found these tricks pretty helpful...

http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=58969.msg1349714#msg1349714

Found that thread super informative and really helpful swill, thanks for taking the time to document your work.

I will be delving into the world of soldering shortly and for anyone in the UK looking to start off as I am, I have been highly recommended by an electrician I work with to go with this non variable soldering iron - the Antex CS18 with the silicone cable option. Apparently it is very well made and great for through hole soldering.

http://www.antex.co.uk/soldering/standard-soldering-irons/cs18/

Does anyone here themselves have experience with antex products?

Offline margo baggins

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Re: The Living Soldering Thread
« Reply #2370 on: Fri, 31 October 2014, 07:22:19 »
fun fact: you can also kill a hakko 808 by filling the plunger full of flux and solder. ask tjcaustin how i know  :p

You can also ask Lastpilot about killing 808s.  :P   :-X :-X

I burnt the crap out of my foot cleaning out my 808 the last time I thought I'd killed it.  *And* shocked myself putting it back together.  I wish the edsyn versions were anywhere close to financially smart for me to get.  Same with their hot air stations.

I always burn my hands cleaning my desoldering station. like every single time.

My air station is really cheap - it's the only cheap thing I have in my setup really. It's fine though, I've used it for loads and loads of hours doing smd stuff. I think it cost me about £50. I have been wanting to get a new air station for a while, but when my cheapie is working absolutely fine for any smd stuff I've thrown at it - I don't really see the point. It's an Atten 858d.
« Last Edit: Fri, 31 October 2014, 07:24:43 by margo baggins »
I got boards.



Offline AKmalamute

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Re: The Living Soldering Thread
« Reply #2371 on: Sat, 01 November 2014, 01:46:35 »
Attachments don't work I get instant 500-errors. Might this time to I'm on at least the dozenth time I tried to speak somewhere about my frustrations but nevermind will try to do it sans-picture.

MCP23018, pad fine trace broken. Trace goes underneath the body of the expander, and down to pins way the heck down at the bottom of the board. So, run wire through pad with pin, after soldering to the exposed, dangling trace?

edit: yep, definitely the attachment killing the post.

So, slightly sure I can talk this time: Ergodox died, I've narrowed it down to, either the expander or the cable between. Melted some caps trying to reflow the phone cord I'm using between the two, no change. Removed the old expander, broke three pins off, and lifted two traces. One is easily fixed because it just goes to another, unused, pad. But that one ... I think it's outside my skill level.

Let's try this: http://imgur.com/MsWyUj1

It's the 'line' that cuts across the "3" -- that's a missing trace, which is sorta sitting between the 3 & the 0. The other line is also a missing trace.
« Last Edit: Sat, 01 November 2014, 01:50:52 by AKmalamute »

HHKB-lite2, Dvorak user

Offline CPTBadAss

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Re: The Living Soldering Thread
« Reply #2372 on: Sat, 01 November 2014, 01:49:00 »
I always burn my hands cleaning my desoldering station. like every single time.

I'm ordering a build from you. Literally bleed for all the keyboards you build? I fux with that.

Offline tjcaustin

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Re: The Living Soldering Thread
« Reply #2373 on: Sat, 01 November 2014, 01:58:53 »
I always burn my hands cleaning my desoldering station. like every single time.

I'm ordering a build from you. Literally bleed for all the keyboards you build? I fux with that.

He only bleeds if you make him harvest things from other boards.  Gah, geez, still so new <3

Offline azhdar

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Re: The Living Soldering Thread
« Reply #2374 on: Mon, 03 November 2014, 06:46:53 »
Is there a ghetto way to solder SMD Resistors ? I have no hot air station , just a 20€ solering iron .

I'm talking about those one : http://www.gonskeyboardworks.com/electric-parts/15-resistorssmd-100-pcs.html
Azerty Propagandiste

Offline goflo

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Re: The Living Soldering Thread
« Reply #2375 on: Mon, 03 November 2014, 07:11:29 »
Honestly the Xytronic is, in my opinion, maybe only worth a third of what it goes for. It's all chinese generic quality parts - for example the hot air and iron combo can get for something like $50 in small quantities from the vendor. Desoldering addon is of course not worth $550. Unfortunately, all in one options from proper vendors are even more expensive if getting them retail, though the difference between them and the china generics is like night and day. While I don't think one needs hot air for generic (non-qfn/bga and such) smd soldering and occasional desoldering is perfectly fine with a pump, you do want a high quality main iron if you're spending that much money. Look on ebay for used pace stations with td-100 or metcal/oki mfr series, both being usually fairly inexpensive. Feel free to pm me for specific recommendations.

It might be that it`s chinese generic, but it works fine for me and doesn´t cost me 3000$ like a Weller Rework Station in our labs. :-X
I agree, for the "usual" soldering work on a keyboard only it´s a bit oversized, but I do a lot of SMD stuff and desoldering, so I just wanted a affordable rework station. And there aren´t that many available  ;)
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Offline phoenix1234

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Re: The Living Soldering Thread
« Reply #2376 on: Mon, 03 November 2014, 09:41:27 »
Is there a ghetto way to solder SMD Resistors ? I have no hot air station , just a 20€ solering iron .

I'm talking about those one : http://www.gonskeyboardworks.com/electric-parts/15-resistorssmd-100-pcs.html

You still can solder SMD Resistors with solering iron if you have the SMD soldering tip for that.

Edit: grammar correction
« Last Edit: Mon, 03 November 2014, 17:57:45 by phoenix1234 »
I like linear switches

Offline Parak

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Re: The Living Soldering Thread
« Reply #2377 on: Mon, 03 November 2014, 10:35:24 »
Is there a ghetto way to solder SMD Resistors ? I have no hot air station , just a 20€ solering iron .

I'm talking about those one : http://www.gonskeyboardworks.com/electric-parts/15-resistorssmd-100-pcs.html


Ideally, you want a tip no larger than 1.2mm or so for soldering 0805s small size solder wire (I like 0.015), and some flux (mgchemicals 835 is nice). Procedure for enig (gold looking) pads would be to apply a bit of flux and a small amount of solder to one pad, tack the smd part to that pad, then flux and solder the other pad, and add a bit more solder to the first pad. It doesn't take a lot of solder, and you want clean looking fillets like these.

Offline Parak

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Re: The Living Soldering Thread
« Reply #2378 on: Mon, 03 November 2014, 10:42:15 »
Honestly the Xytronic is, in my opinion, maybe only worth a third of what it goes for. It's all chinese generic quality parts - for example the hot air and iron combo can get for something like $50 in small quantities from the vendor. Desoldering addon is of course not worth $550. Unfortunately, all in one options from proper vendors are even more expensive if getting them retail, though the difference between them and the china generics is like night and day. While I don't think one needs hot air for generic (non-qfn/bga and such) smd soldering and occasional desoldering is perfectly fine with a pump, you do want a high quality main iron if you're spending that much money. Look on ebay for used pace stations with td-100 or metcal/oki mfr series, both being usually fairly inexpensive. Feel free to pm me for specific recommendations.

It might be that it`s chinese generic, but it works fine for me and doesn´t cost me 3000$ like a Weller Rework Station in our labs. :-X
I agree, for the "usual" soldering work on a keyboard only it´s a bit oversized, but I do a lot of SMD stuff and desoldering, so I just wanted a affordable rework station. And there aren´t that many available  ;)

Well, one option might have been Aoyue 474A + something like a yihua (often rebranded) 995D. Two separate devices, but would have been half the cost :(

Offline goflo

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Re: The Living Soldering Thread
« Reply #2379 on: Mon, 03 November 2014, 11:45:06 »
Hmm, you´re right. Those two manufacturers weren´t on my list. Never heard of them before.
And a quick research showed, they are really hard to get over here in germany.
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Offline Parak

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Re: The Living Soldering Thread
« Reply #2380 on: Mon, 03 November 2014, 12:31:27 »
Hmm, you´re right. Those two manufacturers weren´t on my list. Never heard of them before.
And a quick research showed, they are really hard to get over here in germany.


Ah, that makes sense. Silly international export regulations, etc :(

Offline azhdar

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Re: The Living Soldering Thread
« Reply #2381 on: Mon, 03 November 2014, 13:33:36 »
Thanks for the responses guys , I'll try u_n
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Offline findingthelimit

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Re: The Living Soldering Thread
« Reply #2382 on: Tue, 04 November 2014, 15:01:31 »
I've never soldered before, and am looking to start practicing so I can eventually build a GON - can anyone let me know what equipment I'd need?

I'm thinking of buying the soldering kit from massdrop. Do I also need a desoldering iron on top of that? Do I need to buy alternative sized tips, since I'll be soldering SMDs as well as switches? I've heard that SMDs are a lot more narrow in comparison, and I might need a different tool for those.

My questions might be idiotic, since I haven't soldered anything since high school, but I'm excited to get back into this soldering business!
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Offline swill

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Re: The Living Soldering Thread
« Reply #2383 on: Tue, 04 November 2014, 15:36:27 »
I've never soldered before, and am looking to start practicing so I can eventually build a GON - can anyone let me know what equipment I'd need?

I'm thinking of buying the soldering kit from massdrop. Do I also need a desoldering iron on top of that? Do I need to buy alternative sized tips, since I'll be soldering SMDs as well as switches? I've heard that SMDs are a lot more narrow in comparison, and I might need a different tool for those.

My questions might be idiotic, since I haven't soldered anything since high school, but I'm excited to get back into this soldering business!

Buy the kit from massdrop.  For the money you can't really get setup any better.  It comes with a solder sucker (if I remember correctly), so you do not need a desoldering iron.  I think the tips that are offered are pretty good.  I had no problem with my hako soldering SMDs with the standard tip.  I did end up putting on a smaller tip (because I had a smaller one), but I would have been fine with the regular tip.  With a bigger tip, keep in mind that the work will heat up way faster, so you will have to be quicker and more careful with a bigger tip.  Let us know if you have questions once you have your iron in hand...  :)

Offline mkawa

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Re: The Living Soldering Thread
« Reply #2384 on: Tue, 04 November 2014, 18:28:25 »
learn it love it live it. power transfer (ie, joules _expended_ to heat per unit time) is a function of thermal resistance at the tip to heater junction times the area of the thermal joint.

thermal resistance is optimized by using flux to dissolve oxidized metal from the joint. the _area_ of the thermal joint, ie the cross-section of the two objects in contact with each other, is entirely determined by the size of the tip and how you jimmy it into place.

ok, let's recap

1) use flux to CLEAN and TIN your iron and your joint. your iron should be shiny. your joint should be shiny. every damned thing should be shiny. are you blinded by all the shinyness? no? TRY AGAIN

2) want more power? USE A BIGGER TIP, and use it well. none of this, let me touch the tip of the chisel and erhgjehrg. no, SHOVE THAT SUCKER IN THERE. your tip should be touching BOTH surfaces that you want to join, as well as the solder you want to flow into the joint.

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Offline ceflame

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Re: The Living Soldering Thread
« Reply #2385 on: Tue, 04 November 2014, 18:40:23 »
I've never soldered before, and am looking to start practicing so I can eventually build a GON - can anyone let me know what equipment I'd need?

I'm thinking of buying the soldering kit from massdrop. Do I also need a desoldering iron on top of that? Do I need to buy alternative sized tips, since I'll be soldering SMDs as well as switches? I've heard that SMDs are a lot more narrow in comparison, and I might need a different tool for those.

My questions might be idiotic, since I haven't soldered anything since high school, but I'm excited to get back into this soldering business!

I actually used a super cheap iron from amazon to build mine (http://www.amazon.com/Soldering-Station-Features-Continuously-Variable/dp/B0029N70WM?ie=UTF8&qid=1415147810&sr=8-8&keywords=soldering+iron&tag=webtoolandtec-20). I definitely recommend it if you don't have that much cash to spare after shelling out for a GON. Above that, just get a soldapullt for desoldering. I just got some solder paste from ebay for $3.50 for the SMD parts, and some leaded solder for everything else.

Offline swill

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Re: The Living Soldering Thread
« Reply #2386 on: Tue, 04 November 2014, 20:57:52 »
I would not recommend going cheap on an iron. IMO it just is not worth it. Buy one tool that does the job well and be done with it. You also get so many other quality tools in that package that it just makes sense.  I own 7 pairs of tweezers and the ones included in this kit blow them all out of the water by a mile. It is amazing what a difference a good pair of tweezers makes when soldering. I also own the Larson cutters. They are excellent and definitely a great addition to this kit.

If I was not completely setup with soldering gear at this point, I would be jumping on this. All great tools at a price pretty much anyone can swing. My $0.02...

Offline findingthelimit

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Re: The Living Soldering Thread
« Reply #2387 on: Tue, 04 November 2014, 21:43:36 »
I would not recommend going cheap on an iron. IMO it just is not worth it. Buy one tool that does the job well and be done with it. You also get so many other quality tools in that package that it just makes sense.  I own 7 pairs of tweezers and the ones included in this kit blow them all out of the water by a mile. It is amazing what a difference a good pair of tweezers makes when soldering. I also own the Larson cutters. They are excellent and definitely a great addition to this kit.

If I was not completely setup with soldering gear at this point, I would be jumping on this. All great tools at a price pretty much anyone can swing. My $0.02...

Okay, so I'm deciding to hold out on my GON purchase for now - I am set in buying it in the near future, but I think I really should invest in a good soldering kit for now, and I'm also deciding what colored SMD LEDs to get on that acrylic case.

I'm debating between two kits - the CL1481-K, seen here, http://www.edsyn.com/product/ST/CL1481-K.html, for $90, or the massdrop set, for $145. It seems like they are the same thing to me, so I'm wondering why the massdrop set costs $50 more? Is it just because the CL1481-k set doesn't include solder? I thought solder is cheap.

Thanks!
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Offline digi

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Re: The Living Soldering Thread
« Reply #2388 on: Tue, 04 November 2014, 21:47:31 »
Could someone please clarify this for me? I've read in this thread that the general consensus is to set the iron temp to about 350c for Kester 44 but in Kesters KB it says to set the iron at 750F which is about 399C?

http://www.kester.com/knowledge-base/

"What is the recommended soldering iron tip temperature?

When hand soldering with a rosin flux such as the Kester #44 or the # 285 the recommended iron tip temperature is 750°F. If you are soldering with a low residue no clean solder such as the #245or # 275 we recommend a tip temperature of 600-650°F."

Offline dorkvader

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Re: The Living Soldering Thread
« Reply #2389 on: Tue, 04 November 2014, 21:58:44 »
I'm debating between two kits - the CL1481-K, seen here, http://www.edsyn.com/product/ST/CL1481-K.html, for $90, or the massdrop set, for $145. It seems like they are the same thing to me, so I'm wondering why the massdrop set costs $50 more? Is it just because the CL1481-k set doesn't include solder? I thought solder is cheap.

Thanks!

there's some differences.
The MD kit has the ESD_safe soldapullt
I believe the irons are calibrated for lead solder on MD
MD kit has really good tweezers
MD kit has a really really really good sidecutter

edsyn kit cutter and pliers are "decent" quality.

Could someone please clarify this for me? I've read in this thread that the general consensus is to set the iron temp to about 350c for Kester 44 but in Kesters KB it says to set the iron at 750F which is about 399C?

http://www.kester.com/knowledge-base/

"What is the recommended soldering iron tip temperature?

When hand soldering with a rosin flux such as the Kester #44 or the # 285 the recommended iron tip temperature is 750°F. If you are soldering with a low residue no clean solder such as the #245or # 275 we recommend a tip temperature of 600-650°F."

It's all preference.

Offline swill

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Re: The Living Soldering Thread
« Reply #2390 on: Tue, 04 November 2014, 22:01:17 »
I would not recommend going cheap on an iron. IMO it just is not worth it. Buy one tool that does the job well and be done with it. You also get so many other quality tools in that package that it just makes sense.  I own 7 pairs of tweezers and the ones included in this kit blow them all out of the water by a mile. It is amazing what a difference a good pair of tweezers makes when soldering. I also own the Larson cutters. They are excellent and definitely a great addition to this kit.

If I was not completely setup with soldering gear at this point, I would be jumping on this. All great tools at a price pretty much anyone can swing. My $0.02...

Okay, so I'm deciding to hold out on my GON purchase for now - I am set in buying it in the near future, but I think I really should invest in a good soldering kit for now, and I'm also deciding what colored SMD LEDs to get on that acrylic case.

I'm debating between two kits - the CL1481-K, seen here, http://www.edsyn.com/product/ST/CL1481-K.html, for $90, or the massdrop set, for $145. It seems like they are the same thing to me, so I'm wondering why the massdrop set costs $50 more? Is it just because the CL1481-k set doesn't include solder? I thought solder is cheap.

Thanks!
Because you get way more than just the iron from the massdrop kit.

Included
- CL1481-K3 Edsyn Soldering Iron with Iron Holder - $90 value
- LT376 tip - I don't know, $2
- LT374 tip - I don't know, $2
- DS017LS ESD-safe soldapullt - I think around $20, can't remember
- Hand tool: KP9157 - $35
- 1 oz Kester 44 solder on spool - $5?
- Tweezer - $5?

Basically, it gives you everything you need in quality tools and you pay shipping once.

Offline dorkvader

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Re: The Living Soldering Thread
« Reply #2391 on: Tue, 04 November 2014, 22:08:29 »
Because you get way more than just the iron from the massdrop kit.

Included
- CL1481-K3 Edsyn Soldering Iron with Iron Holder - $90 value
- LT376 tip - I don't know, $2
- LT374 tip - I don't know, $2
- DS017LS ESD-safe soldapullt - I think around $20, can't remember
- Hand tool: KP9157 - $35
- 1 oz Kester 44 solder on spool - $5?
- Tweezer - $5?

Basically, it gives you everything you need in quality tools and you pay shipping once.

If you click the link, edsyn kit comes with iron, same tips, basic soldapullt, some braid, a braid holder, and some pliers and a cutter.

MD tweezer is >$5 IIRC. Good tweezers are expensive. I have some excelta tweezers that MSRP over $100

Offline swill

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Re: The Living Soldering Thread
« Reply #2392 on: Tue, 04 November 2014, 22:32:30 »
Because you get way more than just the iron from the massdrop kit.

Included
- CL1481-K3 Edsyn Soldering Iron with Iron Holder - $90 value
- LT376 tip - I don't know, $2
- LT374 tip - I don't know, $2
- DS017LS ESD-safe soldapullt - I think around $20, can't remember
- Hand tool: KP9157 - $35
- 1 oz Kester 44 solder on spool - $5?
- Tweezer - $5?

Basically, it gives you everything you need in quality tools and you pay shipping once.

If you click the link, edsyn kit comes with iron, same tips, basic soldapullt, some braid, a braid holder, and some pliers and a cutter.

MD tweezer is >$5 IIRC. Good tweezers are expensive. I have some excelta tweezers that MSRP over $100

My bad, I did not click the link, I was going off what I had seen on the edsyn site previously.

In that case, the edsyn kit is a really good deal.  You are getting both Larsen pliers and cutters (assuming, given the names) as well as the rest of what you would need.  That is a pretty good deal... 

Thanks dorkvader for keeping me honest.  :P

Offline findingthelimit

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Re: The Living Soldering Thread
« Reply #2393 on: Tue, 04 November 2014, 23:51:55 »
Because you get way more than just the iron from the massdrop kit.

Included
- CL1481-K3 Edsyn Soldering Iron with Iron Holder - $90 value
- LT376 tip - I don't know, $2
- LT374 tip - I don't know, $2
- DS017LS ESD-safe soldapullt - I think around $20, can't remember
- Hand tool: KP9157 - $35
- 1 oz Kester 44 solder on spool - $5?
- Tweezer - $5?

Basically, it gives you everything you need in quality tools and you pay shipping once.

If you click the link, edsyn kit comes with iron, same tips, basic soldapullt, some braid, a braid holder, and some pliers and a cutter.

MD tweezer is >$5 IIRC. Good tweezers are expensive. I have some excelta tweezers that MSRP over $100

My bad, I did not click the link, I was going off what I had seen on the edsyn site previously.

In that case, the edsyn kit is a really good deal.  You are getting both Larsen pliers and cutters (assuming, given the names) as well as the rest of what you would need.  That is a pretty good deal... 

Thanks dorkvader for keeping me honest.  :P

is the md kit still of higher quality, and is it really worth it to shell out the extra 50 for it? if the difference is mainly the desolderer, should i just get the edsyn kit and buy a solderpullt separately?
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Offline swill

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Re: The Living Soldering Thread
« Reply #2394 on: Wed, 05 November 2014, 06:47:23 »
Because you get way more than just the iron from the massdrop kit.

Included
- CL1481-K3 Edsyn Soldering Iron with Iron Holder - $90 value
- LT376 tip - I don't know, $2
- LT374 tip - I don't know, $2
- DS017LS ESD-safe soldapullt - I think around $20, can't remember
- Hand tool: KP9157 - $35
- 1 oz Kester 44 solder on spool - $5?
- Tweezer - $5?

Basically, it gives you everything you need in quality tools and you pay shipping once.

If you click the link, edsyn kit comes with iron, same tips, basic soldapullt, some braid, a braid holder, and some pliers and a cutter.

MD tweezer is >$5 IIRC. Good tweezers are expensive. I have some excelta tweezers that MSRP over $100

My bad, I did not click the link, I was going off what I had seen on the edsyn site previously.

In that case, the edsyn kit is a really good deal.  You are getting both Larsen pliers and cutters (assuming, given the names) as well as the rest of what you would need.  That is a pretty good deal... 

Thanks dorkvader for keeping me honest.  :P

is the md kit still of higher quality, and is it really worth it to shell out the extra 50 for it? if the difference is mainly the desolderer, should i just get the edsyn kit and buy a solderpullt separately?
I think they have almost identical components, the quality is pretty much the same, just a bit of a different package.

Offline SpAmRaY

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Re: The Living Soldering Thread
« Reply #2395 on: Wed, 05 November 2014, 07:19:57 »
Because you get way more than just the iron from the massdrop kit.

Included
- CL1481-K3 Edsyn Soldering Iron with Iron Holder - $90 value
- LT376 tip - I don't know, $2
- LT374 tip - I don't know, $2
- DS017LS ESD-safe soldapullt - I think around $20, can't remember
- Hand tool: KP9157 - $35
- 1 oz Kester 44 solder on spool - $5?
- Tweezer - $5?

Basically, it gives you everything you need in quality tools and you pay shipping once.

If you click the link, edsyn kit comes with iron, same tips, basic soldapullt, some braid, a braid holder, and some pliers and a cutter.

MD tweezer is >$5 IIRC. Good tweezers are expensive. I have some excelta tweezers that MSRP over $100

My bad, I did not click the link, I was going off what I had seen on the edsyn site previously.

In that case, the edsyn kit is a really good deal.  You are getting both Larsen pliers and cutters (assuming, given the names) as well as the rest of what you would need.  That is a pretty good deal... 

Thanks dorkvader for keeping me honest.  :p

is the md kit still of higher quality, and is it really worth it to shell out the extra 50 for it? if the difference is mainly the desolderer, should i just get the edsyn kit and buy a solderpullt separately?
I think they have almost identical components, the quality is pretty much the same, just a bit of a different package.

The pliers that come with the $90 edsyn kit are $0.90 http://www.edsyn.com/product/KP157.html and cutters are $7.80 http://www.edsyn.com/product/KP710.html,  the side cuts in the massdrop kit are $33.30 http://www.edsyn.com/product/KP9157.html, there must be some benefit to having the nicer pair of cutters.

and the edsyn kit soldapult is $7.80 http://www.edsyn.com/product/PT209.html versus the ESD one on massdrop $25.20 http://www.edsyn.com/product/PT409.html

Offline mkawa

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Re: The Living Soldering Thread
« Reply #2396 on: Wed, 05 November 2014, 09:29:38 »
the K kit from Edsyn has some pliers and cutters that they have surplus and can basically give away. EdsynNick and I aren't crazy about the hand tools, but they will get the job done for one or two jobs. in the MD kit, we've paired the cl1481 with the best nippers money can buy at a very heavy discount (but not free, which is basically what's going on with the K kit).

as for the solder, i'm actually not sure what brand of solder they have in the K kits. i do know that it's very old, though, as those dispensers are old stock and, again, basically free with the kit. the MD kit comes with new stock Kester 44 on an ESD spool.

The K kit comes with a much smaller soldapullt than the DS017LS that comes with the MD kit. i've evaluated pretty much all the soldapullt designs with an eye on trying to save people money, and the original DS017 is so much better than the other designs that i decided it would be silly to try to save a few bucks on the smaller designs.

if you're budget limited and simply can't afford the MD kit, then i think the K kit is a great compromise. if you can stretch for the MD highest tier, i obviously recommend that one -- edsynnick, massdrop and i put a HUGE amount of though and effort into piecing together that kit based on all the previous kits i've vended, lowest possible pricing on everything, etc. etc. i'm incredibly proud of what we've put together, and i really really want it to get out there to as many potential world-changing-budding-electronics-hobbyists as possible, but i do realize that our price point will exclude some buyers (i wish we could sell it significantly below cost.. :[ ).

I'm also the worst salesman in the world, as i'll write 20 pages on thermodynamics instead of trying to sell you on something i've put together. so, buy good tools that are within your budget. i can guarantee to you that the MD kit is 100% fantastic tooling that i will stand by until the end of time, but if it's outside of your budget, then focus on anything that gets you a cl1481 iron and some leaded solder.

to all the brilliant friends who have left us, and all the students who climb on their shoulders.

Offline dorkvader

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Re: The Living Soldering Thread
« Reply #2397 on: Tue, 11 November 2014, 22:24:46 »
so I just found out about magnet wire.
I also found out that magnet wire is available in multiple sizes!

How easy is it to tin? The wire-wrap I'm using now is tough to strip.

Offline swill

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Re: The Living Soldering Thread
« Reply #2398 on: Tue, 11 November 2014, 22:44:34 »
so I just found out about magnet wire.
I also found out that magnet wire is available in multiple sizes!

How easy is it to tin? The wire-wrap I'm using now is tough to strip.

Maybe I am thick as ****, but why would magnet wire be helpful for soldering?  Also, if you are putting it near chips, are you not worried that it will scramble the chip config?

Offline Melvang

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Re: The Living Soldering Thread
« Reply #2399 on: Tue, 11 November 2014, 22:47:36 »
so I just found out about magnet wire.
I also found out that magnet wire is available in multiple sizes!

How easy is it to tin? The wire-wrap I'm using now is tough to strip.

Maybe I am thick as ****, but why would magnet wire be helpful for soldering?  Also, if you are putting it near chips, are you not worried that it will scramble the chip config?

Magnet wire is not magnetic.  It is just copper wire with a very thin enamel insulation.  This is to promote the magnetic field properties from the current changes in the windings of an electric motor.  Some varieties can be had that the insulation acts as a flux when soldering as well.

Edit:  Just wanted to add that at the voltages and currents found in a keyboard matrix the magnetic fields generated would be negligible. 
« Last Edit: Tue, 11 November 2014, 22:49:18 by Melvang »
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