The Living 3D Printing Thread

[Leslieann]

once the r2x comes in, we can reprint a some of your more egregious parts. i would also consider redoing the plywood eventually with heavier material. the light weight of the outer frames of the diy printers are a classic "bad thing". the error introduced by the movement of a head is inversely proportion (to some reciprocal function) of the weight of the frame. this is why bridgeport mills weigh several tons.

The parts all fit now, so no worries there, just took some elbow grease.  The wood isn't nearly as much of an issue on a Rostock Delta as it is on Cartesians as it's not really applying much force to it. Newer Deltas are eschewing wood, but not because of wood being problematic, but that they created simpler/cheaper designs that no longer require it.  I could have started there, but I wanted the extra build volume of this style.

Having the ability to fabricate your own parts, and the ability to see where things can be improved is quite nice, I'm already drawing up plans for a custom design of my own using no wood and taking ideas from other designs as well as my own ideas.

[mkawa]

i'm not really seeing what the gcode coordinate system has to do with stability of the electromechanicals, but maybe i'm missing something. can you link the cartesian version? maybe it will make things more obvious for me (is it that the delta mostly rotates its platform like a lathe, so the stray forces that cause error are torsional?)

imo, you can almost never go wrong by making a cnc machine's frame denser. the gcode is computing without taking into account positioning error (generally, although i thought i saw a small correcter module in skeinforge), and those errors stack up in a long run.

[Leslieann]

Makerbot is a Cartesian style printer, as it uses one motor per axis (two for one of them for vertical I think), that is Cartesian. Makerbot, Prusa, etc, all use that design, which is based on a milling machine. Yours is just a well put together kit that eliminates the wood, which is problematic on those.


A Delta is not a Cartesian, it's not even based on a milling machine or a lathe, it's based on an assembly line robot. Have a look, here is a Rostock Delta being tested, and another printing.

As you can see, the mass being moved and how it's being moved is entirely different. It's not only lighter, but half of what is being moved, is only traveling in a vertical direction. I believe it's less than 1/8th of a pound actually being swung around in a Rostock, while on a Cartesian, it's several pounds that gets pushed side to side, forward and back.

[mkawa]

here's a video with an actual filament head:

feature=fvwp&NR=1

yes, i can see that the forces exerted are significantly different.. i don't think that you're fundamentally looking at less weight at the print head though. in fact, i think that with the long swingarms, you're looking at more weight per print head. curious that there's no fan on the delta's head. i'm guessing it can only do PLA?

the major difference that i can see is: when an arm move _down_ on a pillar and then stops, the deceleration-causing-error is countered by the platform the machine sits on, which, assuming the thing isn't on a bar stool or something ridiculous, is pretty resistant to movement. the equivalent is Z-axis movement downward on a cartesian design, which probably carries the least error.

BUT! i still assert that there are going to be weird torsional forces causing hard to predict error, and that minimizing that error requires a heavier construction. imagine a more common movement in which two servos move up and one moves down. when the servos moving up stop, they're going to cause horizontal movement (some nasty wobble, potentially!) on their pillars, and there will be torsion on the top-platform, which is in a pretty precarious position, being so high (if it's heavy, that woble is only going to get worse, if it's light, it won't resist the torsion). and that's without even looking at the forces on the swingarms, which are definitely non-zero, and swingarm "droop" is going to introduce error as well.

HENCE, heavier, thicker everything (except for the print head) will increase precision. this is also true with the cartesian printers. the exact parts that should be heavier and thicker are slightly different, but sturdier load-bearing bits will still be required to increase ultimate precision with this printer, same as any other.

re: print-head weight. you could minimize print-head weight on a cartesian unit as well, but the eternal battle with these moving-head ffm printers is to increase flow precision, number of output and input nozzles, and temperature stability and that takes heavier print-head components. it looks like the rostock head design happens to be very minimalist, but that's orthogonal (lol) to the mechanical positioning/coordinate system.

although i will note that one benefit of the minimalist design of the rostock is that you have your printer _now_ and i have to wait 7-8.5 more weeks. lol!

[Leslieann]

They print ABS as well.
Fans are dependent on the head and the environment...  Some heads need fans, some don't. Some guys get away with none, others bolt on a fan and others place a desk fan next to it blowing across the entire build area. With your sealed chamber you are more likely to need one.

Yes, you can minimize print head weight itself on a Cartesian as well, however, it's less effective. You still have to move the entire print carriage, including alignment rods and motors, so while you can save a few ounces, which helps, you still have to move the entire carriage carrying it.


Rostock quality is mostly dependent on the rod end connections, the better they are, the better your print. The original rods were terrible and people switched to RC car rod ends for a bit, but the latest is magnetic ball ends and the prints are spectacular.

This is from a Rostock Max (wood framed) with an E3d head/.40 nozzle/no cooling/ABS/heated glass bed/magnetic rod ends.
Seems good enough for me.  (Pic and vid by Flateric)
Video of first print after upgrading arms
Up close.

[mkawa]

abs probably requires a beefier head. the first head you linked had no sinking. second head is pretty sweet. ideally you don't want to draft across the print area, even if you have a heated glass bed. the slower the cool the better.

question though: how are these guys doing their heated glass beds? just really thick planed glass multipoint heating and very slow warmup?

i will point out that a thick glass bed will weight your printer down pretty damn well.

[Leslieann]

Like real life, some heads are better than others.

Many are using Borosilicate glass, because it doesn't shatter when heated uneven. Some have found soda-lime glass (green window glass) also works. it doesn't necessarily need to be thick. Others just risk it and run normal glass. Some just tape over the heater.

There seems to be no set standard for needing a fan or not, or even where or how many. The trick is to find what works for your printer/hardware combination and environment. What works for one, won't for another. One says he needs a heated cabinet, another will say he wants a fan... It's trial and error.

[mkawa]

a perfect recipe for repeatable manufacturing

can't wait to see the first print from your box, leslie!!!

[mkawa]

oh man, i think you've infected me leslie. a delta max design could be incredibly helpful for certain kinds of projects here. for example, the really long build area could end up working extremely well for keyboard cases (which otherwise have to be cut up and then fastened together).

[Leslieann]

oh man, i think you've infected me leslie. a delta max design could be incredibly helpful for certain kinds of projects here. for example, the really long build area could end up working extremely well for keyboard cases (which otherwise have to be cut up and then fastened together).

I love watching the Deltas work, it's just amazing to see them function, it's almost organic.

Like I said earlier, that length is why I went with this, space to do a gh60 (and TKL), of course it has to be done vertical but it should work with some scaffolding, and eventually two at a time to reduce that, if I make them for others. I don't plan on keeping the Rostock as my only printer for long, I plan some upgrades for it, but I also want to make a Cerberus derivative, which has a 400mm high build area, large enough for a TK.

I don't have a problem with the Cartesian/Reprap/Makerbot design, I just like the Delta design better. It uses less desk space, has more room, and just looks so futuristic. I kind of look at it as the second generation of home based 3d printing. However, time will tell if it becomes the more dominant design.  There are a lot of people invested in the style you have but many are also switching over as the design becomes more stable. The Rostock itself is only about a year old and it was extremely revolutionary. Many doubted it would even work and even claimed it was fake.


If you do decide on another, especially a Delta, I would recommend looking at either a Kossel or a Cerberus (both are still in development by the designers). Both are as cheap or cheaper than a Rostock. The Kossel has a similar build area as your Makerbot, but makes for a real nice, and cheap Delta that performs extremely well (and MUCH quieter!!!), I passed on it only due to build area size. It's about $100 less to build than a Rostock, and is the second design from the same guy who designed the Rostock. Cerberus is the work of a Lotus kit car designer who redesigned the Kossel and Rostock to form his own printer. It has an even larger build area than the Rostock for a similar or slightly less price.

Other options are Mini Rostock, which can be done for pretty cheap as well and would make for an excellent second printer for smaller items. If I start making things that sell, I plan on one of these. Parts are easy and cheap to get/make, including pre-cut Lexan panels instead of plywood (Ebay has these). The biggest drawback is the size (of course) and the noise... The linear bearings on Rostocks are VERY NOISY! Many recommend printing ABS bearings to replace them. Which isn't a bad idea anyhow as it prolongs the life of the rather expensive rods (quality rods for a full size can run from $90-$180!). The rods are why the Rostock Max, Cerberus and Kossel were designed the way they are now.

All of this is open source (including most of your Makerbot), so you can swap over parts, use yours as reference, and of course, build another entirely. Like I said, your second can be a lot cheaper if you D.I.Y. it.

Oh.
I forgot about another printer earlier, turns out there is a pre-build Delta and of decent/non-wood quality. It's called Spiderbot. They are still getting going, and their build area is smaller, and you would have to import it, but it's a nice, pre-built all metal Delta for a decent price. If I remember right, their base kit is $1200 after exchange rate and the top end was $1800. I like it better than the Rostock Max, but if it means saving $1000, I'd rather just build one myself.


If it wasn't so expensive to operate, I would build a stereo-lithographic printer as my next. These are the ones that use a laser to cure resin, they have incredible resolution. The printers themselves aren't any more expensive (you can use a Blue-Ray laser and you need no extruder). The problems start once you get finished building it and find that the resin costs 25 times more than ABS. 

[PointyFox]

oh man, i think you've infected me leslie. a delta max design could be incredibly helpful for certain kinds of projects here. for example, the really long build area could end up working extremely well for keyboard cases (which otherwise have to be cut up and then fastened together).

I love watching the Deltas work, it's just amazing to see them function, it's almost organic.

Like I said earlier, that length is why I went with this, space to do a gh60 (and TKL), of course it has to be done vertical but it should work with some scaffolding, and eventually two at a time to reduce that, if I make them for others. I don't plan on keeping the Rostock as my only printer for long, I plan some upgrades for it, but I also want to make a Cerberus derivative, which has a 400mm high build area, large enough for a TK.

I don't have a problem with the Cartesian/Reprap/Makerbot design, I just like the Delta design better. It uses less desk space, has more room, and just looks so futuristic. I kind of look at it as the second generation of home based 3d printing. However, time will tell if it becomes the more dominant design.  There are a lot of people invested in the style you have but many are also switching over as the design becomes more stable. The Rostock itself is only about a year old and it was extremely revolutionary. Many doubted it would even work and even claimed it was fake.


If you do decide on another, especially a Delta, I would recommend looking at either a Kossel or a Cerberus (both are still in development by the designers). Both are as cheap or cheaper than a Rostock. The Kossel has a similar build area as your Makerbot, but makes for a real nice, and cheap Delta that performs extremely well (and MUCH quieter!!!), I passed on it only due to build area size. It's about $100 less to build than a Rostock, and is the second design from the same guy who designed the Rostock. Cerberus is the work of a Lotus kit car designer who redesigned the Kossel and Rostock to form his own printer. It has an even larger build area than the Rostock for a similar or slightly less price.

Other options are Mini Rostock, which can be done for pretty cheap as well and would make for an excellent second printer for smaller items. If I start making things that sell, I plan on one of these. Parts are easy and cheap to get/make, including pre-cut Lexan panels instead of plywood (Ebay has these). The biggest drawback is the size (of course) and the noise... The linear bearings on Rostocks are VERY NOISY! Many recommend printing ABS bearings to replace them. Which isn't a bad idea anyhow as it prolongs the life of the rather expensive rods (quality rods for a full size can run from $90-$180!). The rods are why the Rostock Max, Cerberus and Kossel were designed the way they are now.

All of this is open source (including most of your Makerbot), so you can swap over parts, use yours as reference, and of course, build another entirely. Like I said, your second can be a lot cheaper if you D.I.Y. it.

Oh.
I forgot about another printer earlier, turns out there is a pre-build Delta and of decent/non-wood quality. It's called Spiderbot. They are still getting going, and their build area is smaller, and you would have to import it, but it's a nice, pre-built all metal Delta for a decent price. If I remember right, their base kit is $1200 after exchange rate and the top end was $1800. I like it better than the Rostock Max, but if it means saving $1000, I'd rather just build one myself.


If it wasn't so expensive to operate, I would build a stereo-lithographic printer as my next. These are the ones that use a laser to cure resin, they have incredible resolution. The printers themselves aren't any more expensive (you can use a Blue-Ray laser and you need no extruder). The problems start once you get finished building it and find that the resin costs 25 times more than ABS. 

So instead of costing $0.001 per key, it will cost $0.0025?   

[Leslieann]

So instead of costing $0.001 per key, it will cost $0.0025?   

The material alone for a GH60 case would cost roughly $175, instead of $7 for ABS. You still have printer time on top of that.

I'm not sure about you, but I would rather pay $100 and get an aluminum case than spend $250 on a plastic one.

[TheQsanity]

Do you need a scanner as well?

[Parak]

Dibs on printing test samples of modernized Model F bits!

[mkawa]

the thing that gets me about the rostock and what i would fix, is that it's not truly polar. this is why the tie rod ends are such a large source of error. in order for it to be a truly polar design, _the bed has to rotate_. those circular movements with the head are a mess of error stacking because they're approximating a bed rotation, by turning a single instruction over one variable into a mess of discretized instructions over three variables, each instruction of which accumulates a non-zero error factor.

this goes back to what i said before about this being a mill vs lathe thing. it's exactly analogous, except the action of the head is additive instead of subtractive.

ok, out of engineering-theory-land and into practice.

unfortunately, my next geekhack tooling contribution is going to be another cartesian piece -- a cnc multi-axis mill (a small sherline, NOT a bridgeport, cptbadass ). Leslie, i would encourage you to keep on the polar express, so to speak, because frankly, circular objects like that awesome twizzler you showed, are best made on polar lathe-like additive machines like the rostock (but rotate the bed!!! it's the key to increased accuracy! if a lathe is too foreign to you, think of it as a spirograph; it's the exact same concept).

[Leslieann]

Not an engineer so I missed why you were referring to a lathe before, I thought you were talking about something else.

Anyhow.
The offset and such is all fixed through software. If you can compensate to make it flat, I'm sure the circle is no more difficult.

The errors people get from the rods, is from slack in them. Linear rods aren't always perfect and linear bearings are terrible. many have ordered and gotten some that ground grooves into their new rods they were so tight, others wobbled excessively. However, it's slop in the rod ends where the most errors come from. The original design has to be hand fitted, for all 24 connections. It's a hassle, and even if you do that, it has them pivoting on threads. Not exactly a recipe for precision.

[Leslieann]

Belts are on, motors are in, I still need to mount the extruder and the spool somehow and then I'm all set for electronics, which will probably happen once get done with work tomorrow.


Enough room for a TKL with room to spare. 

[mkawa]

HMMMM some intriguing stuff here XD

http://www.mcmaster.com/#glass-stock/=mue6y7

[Leslieann]

HMMMM some intriguing stuff here XD

http://www.mcmaster.com/#glass-stock/=mue6y7

Yeah, but how does it change when heated... does it warp or expand?

Seems borosilicate isn't as expensive as people make it out to be. I saw some last night for about $20. McMaster isn't exactly known for good, low quantity pricing.

Here is a good size piece.
http://www.amazon.com/Borosilicate-Glass-3D-Printer-inches/dp/B009CHPMOG

[mkawa]

75$ shipping

what McM does is source quality components. (and they also have a local warehouse for every major metro area )

also i was specifically looking at the glass-mica ceramics. they have relatively high thermal conductivity compared to pyrex, which gives a much more even platform temperature with fewer heating devices under the plate. they also have ridiculously high temp tolerances, which you would expect out of ceramic. yet, they're machinable and so could be surfaced using good lapping and grounding technique.. quite interesting!!

[Leslieann]

MCM may be good, but wanting $30 per linear rod (I needed 6) and $20 per bearing (I needed 12) was a bit on the expensive side.
Even nuts and bolts were 3 times the price.

I haven't looked at glass-mica, but for even heating. most guys are putting two thermisters at opposite ends, and if your heater covers the entire surface, you should get relatively even heating. With your aluminum bed, that shouldn't be an issue.

[TotalChaos]

Can either of your printers print with soft materials?

Something along the lines of 10A Rubber?

Or can they only print hard ABS plastic?

[mkawa]

Can either of your printers print with soft materials?

Something along the lines of 10A Rubber?

Or can they only print hard ABS plastic?

negative. shrinkage is crazy with these materials, and their melt points are way too high for FFM printers.

MCM may be good, but wanting $30 per linear rod (I needed 6) and $20 per bearing (I needed 12) was a bit on the expensive side.
Even nuts and bolts were 3 times the price.

I haven't looked at glass-mica, but for even heating. most guys are putting two thermisters at opposite ends, and if your heater covers the entire surface, you should get relatively even heating. With your aluminum bed, that shouldn't be an issue.

what McM is good at is high quality very precise materials. this makes pricing look pretty bad at low MOQs but it's actually pretty good because the guys on ebay and amazon that are selling rods are not selling rods that are as precisely cylindrical as the McM parts.

that said, onlinemetals is also pretty good for bulk shapes, and their low MOQ pricing is pretty good too. i'd go to them before i went to the ebay guys.

then again, i am a pathological perfectionist. take it as you will

[Leslieann]

Can either of your printers print with soft materials?

Something along the lines of 10A Rubber?

Or can they only print hard ABS plastic?

I'm not sure how stiff 10A rubber is, but there is filament that replicates silicone.  There is also a plastic/software combination that replicates wood, including the grain. It's pretty impressive.

I haven't seen prices on either as they have only just come out.

what McM is good at is high quality very precise materials. this makes pricing look pretty bad at low MOQs but it's actually pretty good because the guys on ebay and amazon that are selling rods are not selling rods that are as precisely cylindrical as the McM parts.

I used VXB Bearing, they have quality rods and bearings for about half MCM's price. The rods I got were good, the bearings, meh. I plan on printing replacement bearings anyhow.

I wouldn't buy linear rods or bearings without a recommendation, not for a Rostock. The rods are too important and expensive. My next will use rails though, it's much cheaper.

[TotalChaos]

Can either of your printers print with soft materials?

Something along the lines of 10A Rubber?

Or can they only print hard ABS plastic?

I'm not sure how stiff 10A rubber is,

Seems plenty stiff to me.  To stiff actually.  But I figure its better for me than plastic.

but there is filament that replicates silicone.

Yes I saw that mentioned on some random website.   Of course there are a lot of different types of silicone at all different hardness levels.   When I hear "silicone" the first thing I think of is "boobs" and at first I was thinking that would be too squishy to print keycaps out of... but I did some more research and at least some silicone should be strong enuff to hold up.


Whenever someone is ready to start experimenting just let me know and I will send u $$$ to buy silicone filament and u can experiment with printing some keycaps.

If you can print a couple of keycaps that reach the zone of usability then I would be interested to pay u to print a full set (or 3, since I figure they might wear out after a year of usage.  Some silicone lasts a lot longer/shorter than other.)

For Keyboard Science! 

[mkawa]

silicone's melt point is insane, and rubber doesn't flow plus there's the melt point issue. there are urethanes that have reasonable melt points (an MBI head will _hard stop_ at 230c) but shrink like crazy and tend to be more poly than urethane and hence have hardnesses on the order or like 60-90A. 10A is a very tall order for an extrusion head.

for these kinds of materials, casting a gross shape and then machining it down via a mill or lathe is probably a much much better option.

[Leslieann]

The silicone like stuff is like automotive silicone, it would work as a coating on keycaps, but not the keycap itself and you really need a dual extruder or a lot of time and patience tweaking to do it with a single.


As for temps, many heads use teflon or peek, which is a limiting temp factor, well under 300c.
Trinity or E3d heads are all metal and I can handle temps up to about 400c  (I think the Trinity is a tad lower). Beware though, if you do try it, you now have to worry about things around it, mounts, belts, etc... By 400c, lots of things start to melt.

On mine, I can change the head mount (effector) to aluminum and/or add a small heat shield and I'm set. I plan on getting an E3d head as soon as they come back in stock and I may do the aluminum effector.

[CPTBadAss]

Can you explain a little about how a dual extruder head helps print/extrude silicone? Does it spread the heat out between two heads?

[agodinhost]

This is from a Rostock Max (wood framed) with an E3d head/.40 nozzle/no cooling/ABS/heated glass bed/magnetic rod ends.
Seems good enough for me...

Good enough? Gosh, it's almost perfect as far as I can see, geee ...

[Leslieann]

Do you need a scanner as well?

I think we missed this one, sorry.

No, you don't, you can download files already made or make your own.
In terms of scanning, you can buy a scanner, use a still image camera and stitch them together to make a 3d image, use stills as the basis for a 3d image, or use a video still frame the same way.

The latest method though is using an Xbox Kinect, they are having great results from that, and the new HD version has people really excited because the added detail will make scans far better.

Can you explain a little about how a dual extruder head helps print/extrude silicone? Does it spread the heat out between two heads?

You don't need dual head to do silicone (it's actually a plastic that feels like silicone), however if you were to make keys from it, it would be far too soft and floppy. My thinking was with dual head, you could build a regular key underneath and make a coating of silicone over the top, similar to rubberized keys.

I was thinking it could be done with a single head by just doing it in a separate operation, but odds of pulling it off are just too slim, time consuming, and just an insane way to do it. A second head isn't that difficult or expensive to add anyhow (about $75 for me). Once I get mine running how I want, I will likely do it.

Here is one silicone like plastic, it's a bit stiffer than the other I saw. The other I saw is soft like Gummi Bears.


Also, I heard last night, a company is making a salt filament, so you can print in salt and another is making a water dissolving filament, which can be used to make internal support structures and then then dissolve in water when finished with no residue or distortion.

[CPTBadAss]

Ah that kind of dual head. I thought there was a new technology I wasnt aware of. But thanks for the info! Ive been keeping up with this thread since my work has introduced me to SLA/SLS/Metal 3D printing. Ive wanted to learn more about the Makerbots and hobby side of 3D printers.

* CPTBadAss goes back to lurking and learning

[TotalChaos]

Do you need a scanner as well?

Back when I studied 3D scanners, I couldn't find a single one that was high enuff resolution to scan Keycaps or keyswitches accurately.

 

Can you explain a little about how a dual extruder head helps print/extrude silicone? Does it spread the heat out between two heads?

You don't need dual head to do silicone (it's actually a plastic that feels like silicone), however if you were to make keys from it, it would be far too soft and floppy.

Soft and floppy is what I want.  Of course they need to support their own weight and the stem is kinda small.  And given how small keycaps are I figured we might have to make them with an extra thick stem and maybe an extra thick top so they would have the required strength and rigidity.

My thinking was with dual head, you could build a regular key underneath and make a coating of silicone over the top, similar to rubberized keys.

Aha! ur so devious! 
Very interesting idea

I was thinking it could be done with a single head by just doing it in a separate operation, but odds of pulling it off are just too slim, time consuming, and just an insane way to do it.

I doubt it would ever be accurate enuff trying to use 1 head in 2 totally different construction passes.

A second head isn't that difficult or expensive to add anyhow (about $75 for me). Once I get mine running how I want, I will likely do it.

Here is one silicone like plastic, it's a bit stiffer than the other I saw. The other I saw is soft like Gummi Bears.

Gummi Bears support their own weight.  That's what I need.  Of course Gummi Bears are cheating and have 10x the thickness of the wall of a keycap stem. 


If there was such a thing as a material that was strong in one dimension while being soft and squishy in the other dimension that could work perfectly.  Horizonatlly rigid while being squishy vertically would theoretically absorb all the shock of bottoming out.

[Leslieann]

Soft and floppy is what I want.  Of course they need to support their own weight and the stem is kinda small.  And given how small keycaps are I figured we might have to make them with an extra thick stem and maybe an extra thick top so they would have the required strength and rigidity

You cannot thicken the stem much at all as it must go into the top of the switch housing.

I doubt it would ever be accurate enuff trying to use 1 head in 2 totally different construction passes.

Actually a few companies are working on quick, auto change systems right now. One is close to production. It works on CNC machines, no reason it can't here, the problem is making it cheap enough.

Gummi Bears support their own weight.  That's what I need.  Of course Gummi Bears are cheating and have 10x the thickness of the wall of a keycap stem. 

The only way is to layer it over something stronger.

If there was such a thing as a material that was strong in one dimension while being soft and squishy in the other dimension that could work perfectly.  Horizonatlly rigid while being squishy vertically would theoretically absorb all the shock of bottoming out.

That is one of the wonders of 3d printing, like fiberglass, how you layer things and how solid you make it, can make things flexible in one way and stiff in another. They are making mini plastic leaf springs that work, it's just a matter of figuring it out.

Instead of making the stem connect to the top of the cap, leave a small gap, and use flexible attachments coming off the sides. It would work, the big question would be durability. On the attachments, the red would act as a spring. Besides durability, you have quality, feel, and you still need to figure out how strong of a spring you need, and it may need a guide so the cap doesn't flop to the side or something, but the basic premise is there.

[TotalChaos]

Great ideas u have Leslieann!

I have put away my silly ideas for a 100% rubber/silicone keycap.

I think it would be easiest to simply glue whatever extra shock absorbers on top of a normal cheap keycap.  I can glue some padding on top myself and call it a day...


 Or we could glue 4 small springs on top of a keycap with a square piece of plastic mounted/glued on top.  Technically, I would think a spring should be mounted onto a nub/column of some sort.  Seems like just gluing a spring to a flat piece of plastic... that the glue would break after 10,000 keystrokes.  Tho I am not claiming to be a glue expert or anything.  But we can't mount a spring onto a nub without also lengthening the spring to take that into account, then we end up with a rather tall keycap.  Luckily I don't mind tall keycaps. 

[Leslieann]

210mm x 210mm x 325mm build area
It's probably going to make it's (horrible) first print shortly. Then it's on to fine tuning.

[TotalChaos]

Tell us how noisy it is. 

[vvp]

Probably a lot till linear ball bearings are not replaced with bushings.
Leslieann, do you have diagonal rods longer than the common 25cm? Because if not than you cannot do 21cm x 21cm square, it is more a circle with about 24cm diameter. The one I can get to is not finished yet and it has 25cm diagonal rods.

[mkawa]

Show Image

210mm x 210mm x 325mm build area
It's probably going to make it's (horrible) first print shortly. Then it's on to fine tuning.

pics!

[Findecanor]

The latest method though is using an Xbox Kinect, they are having great results from that, and the new HD version has people really excited because the added detail will make scans far better.

I visited a startup company not long ago: Volumental. You use Kinect, a browser plugin (Windows and Mac only) and their servers do the computation. When it was demonstrated to me, uploading and downloading took most of the waiting time. The result is a mesh and a texture map.

[Leslieann]

Tell us how noisy it is. 

Actually, since I got the better bearings and rods, it's not that bad. It's similar to the square tube railed ones on Youtube, such as Cerberus and Kossel.

Probably a lot till linear ball bearings are not replaced with bushings.
Leslieann, do you have diagonal rods longer than the common 25cm? Because if not than you cannot do 21cm x 21cm square, it is more a circle with about 24cm diameter. The one I can get to is not finished yet and it has 25cm diagonal rods.

Yeah, it's a bit smaller especially since my heated bed is smaller than that as well. A more realistic number right now is 150mm-180.

[Leslieann]

First print.

A 10mm crooked cube. LOL

[PointyFox]

First print.

A 10mm crooked cube. LOL

Oh God.. WHAT HAVE YOU DONE?!

[mkawa]

taking potatocam to a whole new level lol

[Krogenar]

taking potatocam to a whole new level lol

Leslieann printed a potato!

But hey, something printed, it's a start!

[vvp]

First print.

A 10mm crooked cube. LOL

Oh God.. WHAT HAVE YOU DONE?!

The fan is not doing a good blow job or the parts are too hot.
Just a guess 
Anyway, nice progress!

[mkawa]

can you illuminate (lol) how you did your heated plate? materials etc? i want to (but may not get around to) playing around with rotating heated mica/silicate beds. the canonical example of an object that will print well in a polar system and not a cartesian is the simple cylinder (whereas the cube, or worse, the high ratio rectangle) is the vv example.

i will definitely start by playing with mica-silicate non-rotating beds though, so definitely, parts, bom, measurements, etc. (reminder: pick up a type-k probe and fluke adapter or dedicated unit for precise contact measurement -- IR is going to pick up and average too much of the bed, exactly what you don't want when you're measuring uniformity).

[Leslieann]

taking potatocam to a whole new level lol

The lens was blurry, it's a tiny object, and there was movement in frame, not a good situation for any potato cam.

Anyhow, I got in a rush to capture the moment, but as Krogenar said, it printed. lol

can you illuminate (lol) how you did your heated plate? materials etc? i want to (but may not get around to) playing around with rotating heated mica/silicate beds. the canonical example of an object that will print well in a polar system and not a cartesian is the simple cylinder (whereas the cube, or worse, the high ratio rectangle) is the vv example.

i will definitely start by playing with mica-silicate non-rotating beds though, so definitely, parts, bom, measurements, etc. (reminder: pick up a type-k probe and fluke adapter or dedicated unit for precise contact measurement -- IR is going to pick up and average too much of the bed, exactly what you don't want when you're measuring uniformity).

I got a PCB based heat bed (which is smaller than my build area) along with belts/pulleys, Arduino, sd adapter, and endstops in a smoking combo deal on Ebay.

I covered it with green glass and Aqua Net hairspray (make sure it's cold or it will look like Michael Jackson's hair). Also you want to cover anything such as mechanicals to avoid the spray as it can gum things up. I sprayed some on a paper towel and wiped it onto the surface 5 prints so far without having to reapply. I use 8 clamp type paper clips to hold it around the perimeter and ensure good contact as the pcb's are never flat.

PCB beds heat faster, cost more and use more power, mine plus glass and clips takes about 7 minutes to heat up, but I think I need a stronger PSU, as the heat system cycles I can see my LED build area lights flicker a touch. My bed alone is sucking up about 11 amps, plus the 5 for the rest of the system really taxes the PSU the little PSU I'm using (I have 1 or 2 spare amps on an old, used psu). I also had to add a fan to the Arduino as the heater was overloading the circuits.

No matter how round you try and make something, you have to remember that you are working in digital, at some point you hit the pixel level and it will simply not get anymore round. Although, I'm seeing it, despite being digital, if you slow down the jerk movement and run a few degrees cooler/more fan, you can actually round the corners. At least on a Delta. While making the cubes, a few corners on a few levels ended up rounding due to the speed of the arm jerk versus the speed of filament extrusion. I ended up with a really nice rounded corner.

As for temps, I fired a few temp probes on my bed, one I crushed two were damaged while adding heat shrink (thermistors are damaged by an open flame, but soldering irons are fine...) so I am using a 10k resistor from an old pc fan I had laying around. It's quite inaccurate, however I'm having no issues with the bed temps, I just kinds guessed on a how off it might be and it works fine, it's off by about 2-3 degrees at room temp, so I set it 6-8 degrees below target temp, How did I get that, well, for each degree after that, it gets increasingly longer to heat up, and I got tired of waiting and just decided to print and see what happens. LOL It worked.

Point is, don't worry about temp accuracy, find a temp that works. Nozzle size, filament type and even filament brand will change what temps work best. On a .5 nozzle, I get flow around 220c, but I print at 235c. On a .35 nozzle I don't even see flow until 240 and print at 245. When you go too high on either plastic, you can smell it and when it's too low, it won't do anything. My experience so far has been that it should slowly drool when it gets near the right temp and a full nozzle.


To get started, worry more about getting things running right, instead of trying to have it all figured out and measurement-wise perfect. Nothing on these is perfect, and you will probably just over complicate it. You are going to probably spend a long time just figuring out the best temps, nozzle, and THEN you get to play with extrusion settings. Precise temps are the least of your worries and are something easily figured out through trial and error, and are in fact best figured out in that manner. I have heard of ABS varying from 215 to 260 for best melting point. Like I said before, forget the precise number, find what works for you and your combination.


I had the same problem with my first saltwater aquarium, I went all out with all sorts of expensive equipment and I just over complicated it. I downsized and went to a simple all in one, with nothing special and had a great working tank. Same with the printers, get what you REQUIRE and figure out where to go from there.

[mkawa]

I got a PCB based heat bed (which is smaller than my build area) along with belts/pulleys, Arduino, sd adapter, and endstops in a smoking combo deal on Ebay.

using a pcb as a uniform filament... BRILLIANT!!

I covered it with green glass and Aqua Net hairspray (make sure it's cold or it will look like Michael Jackson's hair). Also you want to cover anything such as mechanicals to avoid the spray as it can gum things up. I sprayed some on a paper towel and wiped it onto the surface 5 prints so far without having to reapply. I use 8 clamp type paper clips to hold it around the perimeter and ensure good contact as the pcb's are never flat.

buy a granite surface plate at your local machine shop shop, knife shop, or carpentry shop. lap the glass on the plate. the glass is much heavier than the pcb and as long as it's thick enough (it's thick, right? if not, buy a thicker one and run more current through the pcb) will not be deformed by the pcb.

PCB beds heat faster, cost more and use more power, mine plus glass and clips takes about 7 minutes to heat up, but I think I need a stronger PSU, as the heat system cycles I can see my LED build area lights flicker a touch. My bed alone is sucking up about 11 amps, plus the 5 for the rest of the system really taxes the PSU the little PSU I'm using (I have 1 or 2 spare amps on an old, used psu). I also had to add a fan to the Arduino as the heater was overloading the circuits.

No matter how round you try and make something, you have to remember that you are working in digital, at some point you hit the pixel level and it will simply not get anymore round. Although, I'm seeing it, despite being digital, if you slow down the jerk movement and run a few degrees cooler/more fan, you can actually round the corners. At least on a Delta. While making the cubes, a few corners on a few levels ended up rounding due to the speed of the arm jerk versus the speed of filament extrusion. I ended up with a really nice rounded corner.

As for temps, I fired a few temp probes on my bed, one I crushed two were damaged while adding heat shrink (thermistors are damaged by an open flame, but soldering irons are fine...) so I am using a 10k resistor from an old pc fan I had laying around. It's quite inaccurate, however I'm having no issues with the bed temps, I just kinds guessed on a how off it might be and it works fine, it's off by about 2-3 degrees at room temp, so I set it 6-8 degrees below target temp, How did I get that, well, for each degree after that, it gets increasingly longer to heat up, and I got tired of waiting and just decided to print and see what happens. LOL It worked.

Point is, don't worry about temp accuracy, find a temp that works. Nozzle size, filament type and even filament brand will change what temps work best. On a .5 nozzle, I get flow around 220c, but I print at 235c. On a .35 nozzle I don't even see flow until 240 and print at 245. When you go too high on either plastic, you can smell it and when it's too low, it won't do anything. My experience so far has been that it should slowly drool when it gets near the right temp and a full nozzle.


To get started, worry more about getting things running right, instead of trying to have it all figured out and measurement-wise perfect. Nothing on these is perfect, and you will probably just over complicate it. You are going to probably spend a long time just figuring out the best temps, nozzle, and THEN you get to play with extrusion settings. Precise temps are the least of your worries and are something easily figured out through trial and error, and are in fact best figured out in that manner. I have heard of ABS varying from 215 to 260 for best melting point. Like I said before, forget the precise number, find what works for you and your combination.


I had the same problem with my first saltwater aquarium, I went all out with all sorts of expensive equipment and I just over complicated it. I downsized and went to a simple all in one, with nothing special and had a great working tank. Same with the printers, get what you REQUIRE and figure out where to go from there.

HMMMM... interesting point about not-needing uniformity... as much as the right temp at the center (where you're mostly printing)... food for thought.

as far as power supplies are concerned, find a local neckbeard-run electronics surplus place. they'll have more power supplies there than you can shake a very large stick at for way way cheap.

i just made the mother of all purchases at adafruit to play with arm-based motor and filament controllers. will be going back for more once the beaglebone black run comes in (NEED MOAR JTAG). you can also get all kinds of crap on ebay. look for way used brand name units (lambda, delta, sparkle -- no really, these are brand names), especially ones originally made to power huge RF transmitters, as they're cheap and least likely to blow up on you.

[Leslieann]

The glass is flat, the PCB isn't, as for bent glass, the way a  Delta works, it's always constantly adjusting because as far as it's concerned there is no such thing as flat really.

As for the power supply, I have TONS of them in the basement, I just don't want to change it out yet.


Status update:
My prints are getting better, I'm actually starting to get close to usable items. I have my scale down, so a 10mm cube is actually 10mm. Flow rate appears to be my last big hurdle, I think.

Belts are a pain... They need to be TIGHT. One person said basically it should sound like an upright bass guitar when you flick them. I made 3 of these, and they make it a lot easier to get that last bit of tension, though I may actually have made them too tight at this point, noise shot way up on one carriage, so I will have to check.

Oh, and I figured out, as soon as you sit down to make something, before anything else, start warming up the bed.

[mkawa]

glass has low thermal conductivity. i agree.