Author Topic: Give me feedback on my custom design  (Read 7662 times)

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Offline TD22057

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Give me feedback on my custom design
« on: Sun, 16 June 2013, 12:48:40 »
I'm looking for feedback and constructive criticism on my custom keyboard design.  I have all the parts I need and I'm planning on having plates cut soon and would like to find any problems I'm overlooking before I go to that step.  I'll be doing plate mounted switches with direct wiring (no PCB) and I'm going to make a custom case from a nice hardwood.  Let me know what you think - good, bad, suggestions, etc.

Things I'm trying to achieve:
  • split hand, ~10 deg angle, reasonably small size
  • close to qwerty layout
  • mostly symmetric, matrix design
  • consistent keycaps (no hodge podge of different styles)
  • function layer with keys I use in programming []{}()+-*/=\`~|

Things that aren't that important to me:
  • Cursor control (arrows, page up/dn, etc) key locations.  I use emacs and have tons of cursor control options mapped to various CTRL keys
  • Key locations for `[]\/-=.  All of these keys will be on my function layer so the actual key locations aren't that important.
  • Print screen, scroll lock, pause/break
  • Windows key, menu key (never use them)

I looked at the ergodox, but it has a few things I don't like.  I have tendonitis in my thumbs so the thumb clusters cause problems and I like having real function keys.  The reason I have more keys at the upper left, lower right and fewer keys in the lower left, upper right(for the left hand) areas is so that when the hands are turned to about 10 deg, the total horizontal distance the keyboard covers is minimized.  I'm planning on using the function layer for most of the non-alpha keys I use in C++ and Python programming so those locations aren't as important.

Here's the layout and a prototype I made in cardboard using the DSA Retro key caps.  It feels pretty good so far.  Using 1.5 caps for all the modifiers will allow me to move those around (tab, delete, Fn, backspace, ctrl, alt, etc) after it's made.  I'm not as sure about the arrow keys but that location seems like the best compromise so far.


Offline UniClown

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Re: Give me feedback on my custom design
« Reply #1 on: Sun, 16 June 2013, 13:11:01 »
I really like this layout. My only consideration would be moving the arrow keys/ backspace key so that you can use the arrow keys with one hand and the backspace key at the same time with the other hand. However you say that you use emacs (I don't know what this is) and that your arrow keys will be mapped to CTRL keys.

Things that I especially like:
  • How the keycaps get closer fromt the edge as you go downwards to account for the angle
  • How you save space by using programming-related characters under a function layer, which allows you to save space in the thumb area.
  • That you will be able to do this by using a consistent key cap style
  • That you prioritize your most used keys

Sorry for the lack of constructive criticism but it's mostly because I really like the design.

Offline CPTBadAss

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Re: Give me feedback on my custom design
« Reply #2 on: Sun, 16 June 2013, 13:22:13 »
I'd love to see that arrow cluster moved to a function layer. I really like the WASD or how the Pure function layer handles the arrows. I feel like that real estate in the left could then be used for something else.

I also would love to see CTRL where the backspace is and the backspace to be moved to where the right Fn key is. And for home and end to be swapped with page up and page down.

But I LOVE that page up/page down have been moved to spaces that make more sense to me. I use those buttons so much and always wanted to move them closer to to the home row location.

The angle is genius and I'm really liking the overall concept though.. Can't wait to see this board built up :D

Offline TD22057

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Re: Give me feedback on my custom design
« Reply #3 on: Sun, 16 June 2013, 13:53:31 »
I'd love to see that arrow cluster moved to a function layer. I really like the WASD or how the Pure function layer handles the arrows. I feel like that real estate in the left could then be used for something else.

I haven't really settled on the function layer yet so I may end up doing that.  Since they aren't on the caps, I'll be able to reprogram the teensy firmware as I get experience with what's working and not working.  I'm thinking about using the "mode" key in the upper left to swap between different layouts that I can try once it's built.

I also would love to see CTRL where the backspace is and the backspace to be moved to where the right Fn key is. And for home and end to be swapped with page up and page down.

I actually had ctrl there in my first cut.  I moved it to make the modifiers symmetric but I'm not really sold on it.  If I put ctrl back there, tab where it normally goes, and backspace above return - that has the advantage that it's very close to my normal qwerty layout but the disadvantage is that the modifiers I use a lot (ctrl, fn) aren't the same left vs right.  That's one of the reasons I really like this plate/DSA cap layout is that all of those are 1.5 keys so I can swap them all by reprogramming and the caps will work.  So I can construct everything and figure out the optimal layout on the actual keyboard.

The angle is genius and I'm really liking the overall concept though.. Can't wait to see this board built up :D

Thanks - I'm actually going to make two - one for work and one for home.  I just need to find another set of DSA keycaps and maybe a maybe make a numpad extension to go with it.  I'm also trying to decide whether or not to do a real split hand (ergodox) or just mount them at an angle in a single case (Microsoft Natural).

Offline TD22057

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Re: Give me feedback on my custom design
« Reply #4 on: Sun, 16 June 2013, 13:55:23 »
I really like this layout. My only consideration would be moving the arrow keys/ backspace key so that you can use the arrow keys with one hand and the backspace key at the same time with the other hand. However you say that you use emacs (I don't know what this is) and that your arrow keys will be mapped to CTRL keys.

Thanks - that's not a bad idea.  I might move the backspace to the right side above the return which would enable that behavior.

Offline UniClown

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Re: Give me feedback on my custom design
« Reply #5 on: Sun, 16 June 2013, 22:03:04 »
The angle is genius and I'm really liking the overall concept though.. Can't wait to see this board built up :D

Thanks - I'm actually going to make two - one for work and one for home.  I just need to find another set of DSA keycaps and maybe a maybe make a numpad extension to go with it.  I'm also trying to decide whether or not to do a real split hand (ergodox) or just mount them at an angle in a single case (Microsoft Natural).

I would say go for split hand. The main reason is that although you say you want 10 degrees now, one day you might feel more like 25 degrees. The only other consideration for that would be having to make two separate cases and having a cable connecting the two.

Offline Glod

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Re: Give me feedback on my custom design
« Reply #6 on: Sun, 16 June 2013, 22:32:01 »
this looks good either way split or one unit with no angle. if i was designing one i would have it one unit with no angle like the typematrix just because i already have the ErgoDox for the split feature. but you mentioned the ergodox doesnt work for you (nothing wrong with that!)

the tab and backspace location would completely throw me off though if that works for you go for it. that's the best thing about custom keyboards. i like the arrow key location

Offline TD22057

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Re: Give me feedback on my custom design
« Reply #7 on: Tue, 18 June 2013, 11:42:24 »
Thanks everyone.  I think I'm going to go forward and have some plates cut.  I'm thinking I'll go for split assemblies and build cases out of wood.  If I add some small rare earth magnets to the edges, I can make the cases attach to each other or split apart.  So I can have a pseudo-full size keyboard with the left hand, right hand, and numpad attached or separate them all into individual pieces if needed.   Only the cables might be a little annoying - I wonder how much work going to bluetooth would be for each piece?

Offline TD22057

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Re: Give me feedback on my custom design
« Reply #8 on: Tue, 25 June 2013, 21:48:46 »
I made some minor modifications - the arrows are now in the upper right and the left ctrl and tab are where I'm used to having them on my current keyboard.  This lets me put my function layer key right under my thumbs which will be very nice.  It also has the added advantage that now the colors are symmetric (which my wife somehow thinks makes it "better").  Since I'm only playing with keycap swapping at this point, I sent the plate design off to a local laser cutter to get a price quote today.  Hopefully it will be reasonable given how small the order is...

Offline TD22057

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Re: Give me feedback on my custom design
« Reply #9 on: Thu, 11 July 2013, 20:37:38 »
Plates have been cut and are in the mail!  I started getting serious about working on the firmware today.  Got ubuntu installed in a virtualbox on a windows machine so I can develop under linux and successfully got the teensy talking to the linux machine through the virtual host.  My keymap is finished and I'm ready to start work on the actual firmware matrix code.  I'm going to use a hack/merge of hasu's firmware and benblazak's ergodox firmware to power this thing.

Offline agodinhost

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Re: Give me feedback on my custom design
« Reply #10 on: Fri, 12 July 2013, 11:31:09 »
Plates have been cut and are in the mail!  I started getting serious about working on the firmware today.  Got ubuntu installed in a virtualbox on a windows machine so I can develop under linux and successfully got the teensy talking to the linux machine through the virtual host.  My keymap is finished and I'm ready to start work on the actual firmware matrix code.  I'm going to use a hack/merge of hasu's firmware and benblazak's ergodox firmware to power this thing.
Awesome!
I'm really interested in one version of the hasu's firmware using I2C too.
Building one square I2C keyboard with those 1200 switches (thanks JDCarpe)
GH60 |GH60-Alps |GH60-BT |GHPad/GHPad Alps |GH60-Case |Alps TKL |EL Wire |OS Controller, Round 2 |My Custom Keyboard |WTT/WTB

Offline TD22057

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Re: Give me feedback on my custom design
« Reply #11 on: Sat, 13 July 2013, 17:17:19 »
Look what the mailman brought me today.  I test fit a few switches and caps and it looks like everything fits just fine.  A little sanding to clean up the finish and I should be ready to start assembly.


Offline agodinhost

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Re: Give me feedback on my custom design
« Reply #12 on: Sun, 14 July 2013, 21:12:20 »
Look what the mailman brought me today.  I test fit a few switches and caps and it looks like everything fits just fine.  A little sanding to clean up the finish and I should be ready to start assembly.
GOSH!!!
Awesome plates!
I'm soooooo envy right now, geeeeeeeeeeeeeee
Congrats dude, pro work.
Building one square I2C keyboard with those 1200 switches (thanks JDCarpe)
GH60 |GH60-Alps |GH60-BT |GHPad/GHPad Alps |GH60-Case |Alps TKL |EL Wire |OS Controller, Round 2 |My Custom Keyboard |WTT/WTB

Offline Thimplum

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Re: Give me feedback on my custom design
« Reply #13 on: Mon, 15 July 2013, 19:54:43 »
Look what the mailman brought me today.  I test fit a few switches and caps and it looks like everything fits just fine.  A little sanding to clean up the finish and I should be ready to start assembly.

Nice! That looks a lot more sophisticated than cardboard.
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Offline jeffgran

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Re: Give me feedback on my custom design
« Reply #14 on: Tue, 16 July 2013, 19:20:35 »
This is really cool! I have a similar project in mind -- I'm also an emacs user.

I guess it's kinda too late now but my feedback on the layout would be: be careful with the keys just to either side of the space "bar".

I'm guessing in your updated layout the lower "alt" and "hyper" are "meta" and "fn" respectively? Do you use those a lot? Personally, on a regular qwerty keyboard I use the key just on either side of the space bar as "meta" and I find that it aggravates my thumb always reaching under my hand and pressing down at an awkward angle like that. I haven't actually tried the ErgoDox yet (but it's "in the mail" as they say), but that was one thing that attracted me to it -- it seems the thumbs are in a little more of a natural position with the thumb clusters out from under your hand. I use ctrl and meta constantly, and assigning the big 2x keys in the thumb cluster of my kinesis advantage has been really nice.

Anyway, I'll be keeping an eye on this thread to see how it comes along, for inspiration to build my own! Those plates look really nice, must have been exciting to get them. :)

Offline TD22057

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Re: Give me feedback on my custom design
« Reply #15 on: Tue, 16 July 2013, 21:04:21 »
I'm guessing in your updated layout the lower "alt" and "hyper" are "meta" and "fn" respectively? Do you use those a lot? Personally, on a regular qwerty keyboard I use the key just on either side of the space bar as "meta" and I find that it aggravates my thumb always reaching under my hand and pressing down at an awkward angle like that. I haven't actually tried the ErgoDox yet (but it's "in the mail" as they say), but that was one thing that attracted me to it -- it seems the thumbs are in a little more of a natural position with the thumb clusters out from under your hand. I use ctrl and meta constantly, and assigning the big 2x keys in the thumb cluster of my kinesis advantage has been really nice.

Correct Alt=meta and hyper=fn.  Here is my current Fn layer (in light blue).  The left hand is all cursor movement and erasing.  It has forward/backwards character, word, and line as well as erase backward/forward and erase line (some of those are emacs only of course).  The right hand has all the programming keys I use a lot.  The reason I made the space bars that small was to eliminate most of the curling of the thumb under the hand.  I don't use Alt very much (in emacs, I have most things mappings to various ctrl keys) which is why the Fn keys is the innermost modifier.

I'm going to start sanding and cleaning up the finish on the plates tonight and the firmware is coming along nicely.  Everything takes longer than I would like of course... if only I could retire from my actual job...

Offline MOZ

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Re: Give me feedback on my custom design
« Reply #16 on: Tue, 16 July 2013, 21:39:13 »
Excellent work and those plates are drool worthy :D

Offline Torious

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Re: Give me feedback on my custom design
« Reply #17 on: Tue, 30 July 2013, 18:38:03 »
Looks good! This makes me seriously consider building something similar myself.
Are you willing to share your plate design files? How much did the laser cutting cost?
Thanks.

Offline TD22057

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Re: Give me feedback on my custom design
« Reply #18 on: Tue, 30 July 2013, 18:58:43 »
Thanks.  Here is the DWG file I used (w/ free DraftSight software).  Note that the stabilizer hole has a small bug - it's from the phantom keyboard which tried to have a hole that would work for Cherry and Costar stabilizers which doesn't work.  The Cherry stabs I'm using are fine - they just don't snap in on one side (doesn't seem to affect anything).  I haven't gotten around to fixing the file since my plates were already cut.  I also included a plate design file I was using to prototype ideas.  It has a bunch of things I was looking at and includes switch outlines on a different layer from the holes.  It makes it really easy to throw a new design together by grabbing the correctly size hole+switch outline and placing them side by side.  Then delete the switch outline layer to see the holes that need to be cut.

Cost seems to vary a lot.  I had 2 full keyboards cut (6 parts total) and got quotes from $150-$400.  I recommend you try to find a small shop in your area that can do small orders easily.  Most of the places around me were large cutters who really didn't want to deal with me.

You should check out this thread which has lots of DWG files and discussions about construction.

Offline TD22057

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Re: Give me feedback on my custom design
« Reply #19 on: Tue, 06 August 2013, 20:34:54 »
My keyboard is alive (sort of).  I'm prototyping mods to hasu's firmware and have the left hand working great (driven from the teensy).  I'm about half done w/ my I2C implementation for the right hand.  Hopefully testing for that will go smoothly.  Then I can finally move on to case design.

Offline CPTBadAss

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Re: Give me feedback on my custom design
« Reply #20 on: Tue, 06 August 2013, 20:36:25 »
That is amazing. Wow, that looks so cool. I can't believe I missed out on the previous posts. Great job.

Offline Thimplum

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Re: Give me feedback on my custom design
« Reply #21 on: Thu, 08 August 2013, 15:41:05 »
My keyboard is alive (sort of).  I'm prototyping mods to hasu's firmware and have the left hand working great (driven from the teensy).  I'm about half done w/ my I2C implementation for the right hand.  Hopefully testing for that will go smoothly.  Then I can finally move on to case design.

Me likes that DSA retro. yum
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