Author Topic: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Axios [In Development]  (Read 657599 times)

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Offline Koren

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Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Axios [In Development]
« Reply #1500 on: Sat, 25 October 2014, 09:59:28 »
Now only if the interested parties (USB HID standard body, keyboard and OS manufacturers) recognize that in 2014 keyboards should be able to send scan codes corresponding to Unicode code points instead of restricting keyboards to predefined sets, which are reminescents of the 8 bit code pages from the '80s...
I agree heartfully, but I really doubt that'll happen anytime soon...

Definitively not on from keyboards manufacturers.

They don't need much electronics in their keyboards if they don't have to convert a scancode into a unicode code. Besides, as long as they send scancodes, the electronics is exactly the same for EACH layout. They only have to produce a single type of keyboard, without any specific firmware, and just change the keycaps. The translation is done in the OS.

The best we can hope is an extension of the HID standard that allows a kind of "advanced keyboards" sending unicodes codes*. But I can't see who would push for such an inclusion in the standard...

* still, we should define what's "unicode"... Sending 31 bits values may be a bit much (and still require translation in OS, because I don't think many OS operate on 31bits unicode values), but most solutions like UTF-8 or UTF-16 makes things far more complex. What format should be used for communication?

Linux can usually be seen as a platform where some new things are introduced, but when I look at input devices, I'm sad. They "recently" changed the way IR remotes are handled. You now what?

- now, remotes IR sequences are translated into... keyboard scancodes

- which, obviously, mean that most of the time, a button of your remote will change its behavior if you change... your keyboard layout (!!)

- wait, maybe it's not that bad... you map remote buttons to the bunch of scancodes that refer to "media" functions that should not depend on the layout, which would make more sense? Nope, because X will ignore all keys over 256, which mean most of those special scancodes simply won't work.


Fun and simple example: take numbered keys on an IR remote. Quite useful, usually. Now, in practice:

* If you map them to the KEY_1, KEY_2... scancodes, you'll get, for example "&" when pushing [1] on the remote if you have a standard AZERTY layout selected

* If you map them to the KEY_KP_1, KEY_KP_2... scancodes, you'll get different results depending on the keyboard numpad lock state

* If you map them to the BTN_1, BTN_2... scancodes (which should probably the best idea), X will ignore them

As a result, on my HTPC, the [1] button of my remote is mapped to KEY_BASSBOOST, and I have a keyboard layout that produce a '1' when the KEY_BASSBOOST scancode is received. Other keys uses KEY_FINANCE, KEY_SHOP, KEY_ALTERASE...

That's TOTALLY retarded, even if technically it works.

And if Linux developpers can be satisfied with such a crappy way to handle an IR remote, I don't expect the situation on the keyboard protocol getting better anytime soon.


Using a totally flat keycap profile like DSA makes this problem worse; I would advise anyone with an Ergodox or similar board to use sculpted keycaps.
I'm ready to order a set of sculpted keycaps for my future Axios keyboard, for this very reason, even if that means I'll miss some of the advantages of backlighting (if I want labeled keys), but I'm at lost to source the 1.5 (or 1.25?) keys on the Axios for most rows. Should you have any idea for this, I'm interested.

Offline Scoox

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Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Axios [In Development]
« Reply #1501 on: Thu, 30 October 2014, 19:28:02 »
So... is it just us or is the whole world retarded? It's 7 billion of us and it seems we are the only "idiots" who realise the traditional keyboard is a piece of cr*p. Heck, just a simple  symmetrical layout with some extra thumb keys and middle keys would make a massive difference. This is the sort of thing only a company like Apple, which was able to get away with a one-button mouse for too many years, might be able to step in and do, and then everyone else will start jumping off the Apple cliff like lemmings, as usual.

Offline clickclack123

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Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Axios [In Development]
« Reply #1502 on: Thu, 30 October 2014, 23:49:49 »
Using a totally flat keycap profile like DSA makes this problem worse; I would advise anyone with an Ergodox or similar board to use sculpted keycaps.

I agree with this. I had DSA on my ergodox for a few months and hated it. Then I went in on a Massdrop for DCS ergodox caps and it was like night and day.

So... is it just us or is the whole world retarded? It's 7 billion of us and it seems we are the only "idiots" who realise the traditional keyboard is a piece of cr*p. Heck, just a simple  symmetrical layout with some extra thumb keys and middle keys would make a massive difference. This is the sort of thing only a company like Apple, which was able to get away with a one-button mouse for too many years, might be able to step in and do, and then everyone else will start jumping off the Apple cliff like lemmings, as usual.

I'm amazed by this as well. People spend 8 hours per day typing yet don't manage to give any thought as to what keyboard/mouse they use. Most people don't even bother to learn to touchtype or learn keyboard shortcuts. Just lazy IMO.

It was a revelation to me when I found geekhack and other input device forums. Then the excellent ergodox and the future excellence of the axios.

Offline dshk

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Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Axios [In Development]
« Reply #1503 on: Fri, 31 October 2014, 09:27:00 »
Lack of public interest in modern, ergonomic keyboards is directly related to the lack of touch typing knowledge. For a hunt and peck typist an ergonomic layout does not help, it can even be a hindrance if the keyboard is split into two halfs. The 22-catch here is that it would be much easier to learn touch typing on a modern keyboard. I also noticed that people think they touch type, while actually they are not, they do not press the same key using the same finger consistently.

However, this does not explain why there is no more demand for tactile switches in a conventional keyboard layout.
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Offline davkol

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Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Axios [In Development]
« Reply #1504 on: Fri, 31 October 2014, 09:35:21 »
I also noticed that people think they touch type, while actually they are not, they do not press the same key using the same finger consistently.
TIL Sean Wrona (or basically any other profficient typist) doesn't touch type… or your definition of touch typing is wrong.

Offline jacobolus

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Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Axios [In Development]
« Reply #1505 on: Fri, 31 October 2014, 14:56:44 »
I also noticed that people think they touch type, while actually they are not, they do not press the same key using the same finger consistently.
TIL Sean Wrona (or basically any other profficient typist) doesn't touch type… or your definition of touch typing is wrong.
Couldn’t you have said that in a nicer (less snarky) way?

I’m pretty sure there are “proficient” typists who consistently use one finger per key, considering that typing schools have been training people to do that for a century. Sean Wrona also doesn’t bother with the shift key, because it slows him down.

dshk: From what I understand, the definition of “touch” typing just involves knowing where the keys are by touch rather than needing to find keys by eye, looking at the legends; to “touch type” doesn’t require any specific technique, beyond that. Still, there are ways to be more effective or less effective, and I’m sure many people use uncomfortable, slow, error-prone techniques.
« Last Edit: Fri, 31 October 2014, 15:00:29 by jacobolus »

Offline Koren

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Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Axios [In Development]
« Reply #1506 on: Fri, 31 October 2014, 16:09:37 »
I’m pretty sure there are “proficient” typists who consistently use one finger per key, considering that typing schools have been training people to do that for a century.
Are they, really? (geniously curious about that, I would be surprised if they do this, although there's been a lot of rules that doesn't make sense in many typing schools, so I probably shouldn't be surprised).

I mean, it's normal, at first, to say that there's a "natural finger" for each key. But there's definitively situations where a finger substitution makes far more sense than using the "normal" finger.

For example, when you have two keys in a roll pattern that normally require using the same finger twice, such as 'yu' (on azerty/qwerty) followed by a character on the left hand. When the index is on the 'y', the hand has moved, and using the middle finger to type the 'u' make more sense, for me, than using the index a second time.

If you learn a musical instrument, you'll be teach "normal" fingers position at first, but after a couple of years, you'll learn dozens of substitutions for certain sequences.

Offline jacobolus

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Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Axios [In Development]
« Reply #1507 on: Fri, 31 October 2014, 16:57:07 »
For example, when you have two keys in a roll pattern that normally require using the same finger twice, such as 'yu' (on azerty/qwerty) followed by a character on the left hand. When the index is on the 'y', the hand has moved, and using the middle finger to type the 'u' make more sense, for me, than using the index a second time.
There are almost no words in English that include “yu” in them, so I doubt this comes up all that often. I don’t too often discuss yurts or yuccas, picayune things, or bradyuria. Speaking for myself, I type both “y” and “u” with the same right index finger in such situations. (Though my typing speed only tops out at about 100 WPM, so perhaps I can’t be considered “proficient”.)

The full list from:
egrep -i ".*yu.*" /usr/share/dict/words

Ahantchuyuk, Astrocaryum, ayu, Ayubite, Ayyubid, Banyuls, Brachyura, brachyural, brachyuran, brachyuranic, brachyure, brachyurous, Brachyurus, bradyuria, Bryum, Cambyuskan, Cayubaba, Cayubaban, Cayuga, Cayugan, Cayuse, Cayuvava, Centrosoyus, Chinchasuyu, colipyuria, colyum, colyumist, coyure, dacryuria, dasyure, Dasyuridae, dasyurine, dasyuroid, Dasyurus, Dasyus, embryulcia, embryulcus, Fayumic, gavyuti, guayule, Hiroyuki, Hyrachyus, Jianyun, Kikuyu, Kyu, Kyung, Kyurin, Kyurinish, Leucobryum, Liyuan, muyusa, oxyuriasis, oxyuricide, Oxyuridae, oxyurous, pacouryuva, picayune, picayunish, picayunishly, picayunishness, polyuresis, polyuria, polyuric, pyuria, Ryukyu, sarcodictyum, Seiyuhonto, Seiyukai, skyugle, Stachyuraceae, stachyuraceous, Stachyurus, Syun, Takayuki, Teruyuki, Tuyuneiri, Vayu, Wanyakyusa, Yuan, yuan, Yuapin, yuca, Yucatec, Yucatecan, Yucateco, Yucca, yucca, Yuchi, yuck, yuckel, yucker, yuckle, yucky, Yuechi, yuft, Yuga, yugada, Yugoslav, Yugoslavian, Yugoslavic, yuh, Yuit, Yukaghir, Yuki, Yukian, yukkel, yulan, yule, yuleblock, yuletide, Yuma, Yuman, yummy, Yun, Yunca, Yuncan, yungan, Yunnanese, Yurak, Yurok, yurt, yurta, Yurucare, Yurucarean, Yurucari, Yurujure, Yuruk, Yuruna, Yurupary, yus, yusdrum, Yustaga, yutu, yuzlik, yuzluk

Even for more common such combinations, like “tr” and “mn”, I find that I type both letters with the same finger. Really what those pairs highlight though is that QWERTY is a terrible layout – “gr”, “fr”, “ft”, “br”, “mu”, “nu”, “my”, “ny”, “de”, “ws”, “sw”, “hu”, “lo”. “ki”, &c. &c. should all (to the extent possible) be moved onto different fingers. It’s entirely possible to create a layout where pairs of letters typed on the same finger are extremely rare.
« Last Edit: Fri, 31 October 2014, 17:08:28 by jacobolus »

Offline dshk

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Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Axios [In Development]
« Reply #1508 on: Fri, 31 October 2014, 16:57:23 »
dshk: From what I understand, the definition of “touch” typing just involves knowing where the keys are by touch rather than needing to find keys by eye, looking at the legends; to “touch type” doesn’t require any specific technique, beyond that. Still, there are ways to be more effective or less effective, and I’m sure many people use uncomfortable, slow, error-prone techniques.

Yes, I mean "touch typing as it is taught in school". I am not aware that there are schools which teach touch typing in such a way that a key may be pressed by more than one finger. I do know about Sean Wrona, but he learned typing when he was 3 years old. He is in a different category. I am not sure if anybody - including himself - analyzed his method.

This is only interesting here, because as I see, ergonomic keyboard layouts are mostly beneficial or mostly liked if somebody does touch typing as it is taught in school. This benefit is smaller and smaller as we go closer to the other end of the spectrum, hunt and peck typists, where it has no benefit at all. And a surprisingly low number of people learn touch typing systematically, even in the IT field.

Btw. I got a TrulyErgonomic for testing. So far I truly miss the thumb keys :(
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Offline davkol

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Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Axios [In Development]
« Reply #1509 on: Fri, 31 October 2014, 17:05:34 »
For example, when you have two keys in a roll pattern that normally require using the same finger twice, such as 'yu' (on azerty/qwerty) followed by a character on the left hand. When the index is on the 'y', the hand has moved, and using the middle finger to type the 'u' make more sense, for me, than using the index a second time.
There are almost no words in English that include “yu” in them, so I doubt this comes up all that often. I don’t too often discuss yurts or yuccas, picayune things, or bradyuria. Speaking for myself, I type both “y” and “u” with the same right index finger in such situations.
Colemak 'he' or say QWERTY 'hj' (not unseen in Nordic languages) is the same case.

Offline jacobolus

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Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Axios [In Development]
« Reply #1510 on: Fri, 31 October 2014, 17:09:46 »
Colemak 'he' or say QWERTY 'hj' (not unseen in Nordic languages) is the same case.
Colemak doesn’t put “he” on the same finger...?

Offline JackMills

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Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Axios [In Development]
« Reply #1511 on: Fri, 31 October 2014, 17:17:59 »
Colemak 'he' or say QWERTY 'hj' (not unseen in Nordic languages) is the same case.
Colemak doesn’t put “he” on the same finger...?
Colemak doesn't put 'he' on the same finger. H is index and e is middle, you have 'hn' which would be index for both.

Offline davkol

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Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Axios [In Development]
« Reply #1512 on: Fri, 31 October 2014, 17:57:08 »
Colemak 'he' or say QWERTY 'hj' (not unseen in Nordic languages) is the same case.
Colemak doesn’t put “he” on the same finger...?
I guess the point is that in such situation it might be more efficient to move the whole hand and use "non-standard" fingering, instead of (a) slowing down, or (b) stretching the index finger from the home position.

Offline Koren

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Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Axios [In Development]
« Reply #1513 on: Fri, 31 October 2014, 19:13:06 »
There are almost no words in English that include “yu” in them, so I doubt this comes up all that often.
That was just an example... and there's not only english (when I'm typing japanese on azerty, I'm using 'yu' quite a lot, actually, and I could fill this page with common japanese words including 'yu') and others layouts can have different digrams on those keys.

Even for more common such combinations, like “tr”
That's actually not really the same situation, and if I chose 'yu' over the more common 'tr' in english, that's because the hand don't move much to reach the 't' (other fingers could stay quite easily on the home position), but it moves more when you try to reach 'y'.

(but I indeed use the middle finger for 'r' when typing 'tr'... actually, I'm using all 4 fingers in a roll to type 'trez' on AZERTY, and 'trez' is really common in french.)

Besides, I only wanted to underline the fact that, at least for some people, fingers substitutions can make sense. And that's hardly a reason to consider that it isn't 'touch typing'.


On a side note, I've been teached, when I was learning accordion, that you should avoid pressing the same key with the same fingers twice in a row (and even more for two different keys). The reasons are not really useful with a keyboard (you increase both the speed and the regularity when pressing the key several times, but you don't need pressing more than twice the same key on a keyboard, and you're not interested in regularity) but I'm pretty sure a part of my typing habits have been inherited from those rules.

Really what those pairs highlight though is that QWERTY is a terrible layout
Indeed... Avoiding digrams on the same finger was my n°1 rule when I designed my own layout.

That's mostly for comfort, though (although comfort is obviously important). I expect the effect of the layout on the typing speed to be marginal at best.

But, back to topic, I expect a bigger gain in comfort by using a keyboard like Axios than by just changing layout on a classical ISO keyboard... Can't wait, really...

Offline dshk

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Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Axios [In Development]
« Reply #1514 on: Fri, 31 October 2014, 19:32:13 »
Besides, I only wanted to underline the fact that, at least for some people, fingers substitutions can make sense. And that's hardly a reason to consider that it isn't 'touch typing'.

I agree that if the same combination of fingers are consistently used for pressing the same combination of keys, then it is touch typing in every sense. This is just the extension of the specific finger for a specific key principle for multiple keys. The common point is that muscle memory is enough for typing in all of these cases.
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Offline jacobolus

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Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Axios [In Development]
« Reply #1515 on: Fri, 31 October 2014, 19:40:23 »
I agree that if the same combination of fingers are consistently used for pressing the same combination of keys, then it is touch typing in every sense.
Why does consistency have anything to do with it? Your definition of “touch typing” seems very forced and artificial, and I’m not sure what the point is.

Offline dshk

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Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Axios [In Development]
« Reply #1516 on: Fri, 31 October 2014, 19:57:26 »
Why does consistency have anything to do with it?
For me the most important benefit of touch typing is that it does not cause distraction. If there is no consistency, than the brain must decide on which finger to use, and the need for a decision distracts from the real task I do.

Your definition of “touch typing” seems very forced and artificial, and I’m not sure what the point is.
To be honest I feel that I accidentally diverted this topic to an offtopic subject, and I hoped that we can agree in this way, and return to Axios :)
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Offline clickclack123

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Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Axios [In Development]
« Reply #1517 on: Sat, 01 November 2014, 01:23:07 »
Btw. I got a TrulyErgonomic for testing. So far I truly miss the thumb keys :(

I got one and missed the thumb keys of my ergodox as well, so I made the left arrow key the Fn key, and it works quite well for me at work. I love having the arrow keys on the home row as a Fn layer activated by the thumb, then I don't have to move my hand to navigate. If you're interested, my current layout (dvorak) is here.

Offline Guntereno

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Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Axios [In Development]
« Reply #1518 on: Sun, 09 November 2014, 07:30:46 »
Just signed up to say that I'm really excited about this project! I've been a user of Microsoft Natural keyboards for many years now and when I felt the urge to try a mechanical keyboard I was disappointed to see the limited selection of split keyboard options available. After doing some research and obsessing about getting an ErgoDox for a while, I stumbled upon this thread this morning and now I've got a new obsession! This is shaping up to be the perfect keyboard and I'll definitely be backing it. I'm really impressed with the care and dedication which has gone into its development.
« Last Edit: Sun, 09 November 2014, 07:55:56 by Guntereno »

Offline assaf758

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Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Axios [In Development]
« Reply #1519 on: Sun, 09 November 2014, 09:20:04 »
Just as Guntereno, I signed into geekhack to voice my excitement about this project!
Hopefully we will be able to order one soon ;-)
Thx,
Assaf

Offline Hairball

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Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Axios [In Development]
« Reply #1520 on: Sun, 09 November 2014, 11:48:51 »
Just signed up to say that I'm really excited about this project! I've been a user of Microsoft Natural keyboards for many years now and when I felt the urge to try a mechanical keyboard I was disappointed to see the limited selection of split keyboard options available. After doing some research and obsessing about getting an ErgoDox for a while, I stumbled upon this thread this morning and now I've got a new obsession! This is shaping up to be the perfect keyboard and I'll definitely be backing it. I'm really impressed with the care and dedication which has gone into its development.
You sound just like me :)  Long-time user of the MS Natural keyboards wanting the same sort of idea, but as a mechanical board.  I was also disappointed to see the limited selection out there, but this project does seem to check all the boxes for me.  Can't wait to see it move forward!

/paging Acidfire... ;)

Offline dsmitify

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Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Axios [In Development]
« Reply #1521 on: Mon, 10 November 2014, 06:38:21 »
Interesting to see how many have the same history as me :D

Also using Natural Ergonomic Keyboard 4000 and waiting for this one. Ergodox just didn't have everything i wanted.

Can't wait for this project to go live! :)

Offline jacobolus

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Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Axios [In Development]
« Reply #1522 on: Mon, 10 November 2014, 15:36:00 »
Also using Natural Ergonomic Keyboard 4000 and waiting for this one. Ergodox just didn't have everything i wanted.
Just out of curiosity, which parts of the Ergodox do you dislike?

Offline Niomosy

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Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Axios [In Development]
« Reply #1523 on: Mon, 10 November 2014, 20:42:01 »
Throw me in the MS Ergo 4000 group.  I've used MS Ergo keyboards since 1997.  I've been looking for one like that with reds for ages.  I'm keeping an eye on this one to see how well it works for me.

Offline dsmitify

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Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Axios [In Development]
« Reply #1524 on: Tue, 11 November 2014, 01:23:04 »
Also using Natural Ergonomic Keyboard 4000 and waiting for this one. Ergodox just didn't have everything i wanted.
Just out of curiosity, which parts of the Ergodox do you dislike?

mostly small stuff like: the thumbs area looked to me like its hard to use (u can only easily reach the first thumbs row), no Bluetooth, flat design

Offline Niomosy

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Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Axios [In Development]
« Reply #1525 on: Sun, 16 November 2014, 04:33:32 »
Also using Natural Ergonomic Keyboard 4000 and waiting for this one. Ergodox just didn't have everything i wanted.
Just out of curiosity, which parts of the Ergodox do you dislike?

There's a few problems for me with the Ergodox. 

What it ends up boiling down to is layout compromise.  I could probably get a layout that was workable if somewhat odd (brackets and quote keys being the typical issue) but the lack of function keys just throws me right out given the cost. 
« Last Edit: Sun, 16 November 2014, 04:37:57 by Niomosy »

Offline JackMills

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Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Axios [In Development]
« Reply #1526 on: Tue, 18 November 2014, 14:49:28 »
I am wondering how AcidFire is doing, he hasn't posted in a while. And his own forum is getting spammed :(

Offline Hairball

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Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Axios [In Development]
« Reply #1527 on: Tue, 18 November 2014, 15:14:56 »
I am wondering how AcidFire is doing, he hasn't posted in a while. And his own forum is getting spammed :(
Noticed that... not much real being posted on his forum and I think it's been a few weeks since we've heard from him.  I gathered he was pretty busy so that's probably all it is, but I'm sure a lot of us are anxious for an update :)

Offline JackMills

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Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Axios [In Development]
« Reply #1528 on: Tue, 18 November 2014, 15:21:44 »
Noticed that... not much real being posted on his forum and I think it's been a few weeks since we've heard from him.  I gathered he was pretty busy so that's probably all it is, but I'm sure a lot of us are anxious for an update :)
It is a pity that his forum is getting spammed, each time I get my hopes up because a new post or topic has been created, only to see a new spam post.
I have absolutely no issue with him taking some time, either for himself or for this project, but because of his enthusiasm throughout this development it seemed a bit strange that he hasn't posted here or on his own forum.   

Offline Koren

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Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Axios [In Development]
« Reply #1529 on: Tue, 18 November 2014, 15:53:23 »
It is a pity that his forum is getting spammed, each time I get my hopes up because a new post or topic has been created, only to see a new spam post.
Same here...

I'm fine with the project taking the time it needs, too. I sure hope everything is fine for AcidFire, though.

Offline AcidFire

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    • Axios - The Open Source Modular Ergonomic Keyboard
Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Axios [In Development]
« Reply #1530 on: Wed, 19 November 2014, 18:59:31 »
Still alive!
Between work and getting all the media/content prepped, I've been keeping my head down a bit more than I would like. I've now completely a couple of sets of parts both in printing and electronically so I've been hard at work getting content ready for the campaign. While I've been slaving away, I was asked to find a part I had mentioned to a friend that could suit his project, and the more and more I looked at it the more I realized it could suit the Axios as well.


These nifty little bastards sport a 4 way nav, 24 detent rotary wheel, and click center. Originally I was hoping they might make a good mouse substitute, but sadly the 4 way has too long of a reach, and they're fairly large. However, due to their specs, I'm going to build something similar to what you see with the prototype so that I can map them to various editing functions since the rotarys are great for that sort of thing. This device will eventually run the same controller that's in the Axios, but it's on hold until the keyboard is well on it's way.

That did however lead to a bit of determination, since I'm finding more and more myself hating to have to switch between keyboard and mouse. After much googling and pouring over datasheets, I think I've found an excellent pointing device.

It's a hall effect sensor with a rather nice return to center spring as well as click. It's the right size to potentially work as a drop in replacement for a key, and is i2c compatible to boot so it's super simple to hook up. The controller even supports two addresses, so you'd be able to have one on each side if you wanted. Again, while a pleasant discovery it's being set aside until the main project is done, but I'm excited for the prospect of it.

As for those of you who have been asking for the ability to mount the units to a chair or other platform, behold:




Unfortunately my flexible photo arm wasn't the best example platform, but I'm definitely liking the balance so far. Might need a little bit of tweaking but it's definitely a feature that'll be included with the launch units.

As for my poor neglected forums, I'll be working with a friend to get them cleaned up and a bit more spam proofed.

Offline berserkfan

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Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Axios [In Development]
« Reply #1531 on: Wed, 19 November 2014, 20:01:54 »
I just learned about your awesome keyboard project in development. Up for you, Acidfire! Yes, we need something better than ergodox!

That said, I am really not sure that the thumb spacings will work for someone with smaller hands. I just decided to sell an ergodox almost immediately after I got it, https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=62920.0
and the reason was that the thumb spaces were simply unacceptable to me.

If you look at my link (it's a selling link but I also put three photos there),



a person with smaller hands than you, such as me, would never find the three row thumb spaces comfortable. As much as I applaud you for instance, it's not at the point where I would donate (I am selling my ergodox and part of proceeds will go to another project.)

Do you feel that your current 3x3 thumb cluster is a bit too much work for the thumbs? Add to that you have to consider that thumbs are oriented differently from the rest of the fingers. It is still easier for thumbs to move INWARDS rather than horizontally up and down to trigger the keys on your tilted-horizontal 3x3 matrix. Methinks you can still tilt your thumb cluster at least 45 degrees.
Most of the modding can be done on your own once you break through the psychological barriers.

Offline etd

  • Posts: 3
Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Axios [In Development]
« Reply #1532 on: Thu, 20 November 2014, 03:24:44 »
Good to hear you're OK, AcidFire.

I was wondering if it is possible to optionally swap thumb clusters between halves in order to have 1u keys on bottom row. In this case, middle row is closer to thumbs, therefore more suitable for smaller hands (berserkfan?).

I'm finding more and more myself hating to have to switch between keyboard and mouse.
It would be awesome to have pointing device embedded - e.g. as a stretch goal.


Offline JackMills

  • Posts: 153
Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Axios [In Development]
« Reply #1533 on: Thu, 20 November 2014, 03:32:36 »
Good to hear of you, AcidFire.

...
I'm finding more and more myself hating to have to switch between keyboard and mouse.
It would be awesome to have pointing device embedded - e.g. as a stretch goal.

^^ this, I would like to see this as an extra as well. You are right switching between keyboard and mouse is not something that you want to do, but sometimes you have to. And I can't handle those little pointers in the middle of the keyboard. A bigger pad at a thumb would be interesting. You can give up one thumbkey for that pad, and you can map your mouse button action to any key that is comfortable.



Offline berserkfan

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Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Axios [In Development]
« Reply #1534 on: Thu, 20 November 2014, 05:08:34 »
Good to hear you're OK, AcidFire.

I was wondering if it is possible to optionally swap thumb clusters between halves in order to have 1u keys on bottom row. In this case, middle row is closer to thumbs, therefore more suitable for smaller hands (berserkfan?).

I'm finding more and more myself hating to have to switch between keyboard and mouse.
It would be awesome to have pointing device embedded - e.g. as a stretch goal.

The pointing device idea is good, but I just don't understand why manufacturers are no longer making the effort to research these. We're still stuck in a world where no matter how ergonomic our keyboard and layout is, we must constantly move our hands off the keyboard in order to use the mouse. What wouldn't I give to get a pointing device that doesn't require moving hands away from their happy home row resting position!

If only this could be incorporated on one of the thumb positions somehow! (Note that it doesn't have to be super accurate. It just needs to do regular mousing work. Remember, if you wanted some super mouse for CAD or professional gaming, ultimately you will still need to buy a real dedicated mouse.)

Most of the modding can be done on your own once you break through the psychological barriers.

Offline AcidFire

  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 399
  • Location: Calgary AB
    • Axios - The Open Source Modular Ergonomic Keyboard
Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Axios [In Development]
« Reply #1535 on: Thu, 20 November 2014, 13:42:43 »
I just learned about your awesome keyboard project in development. Up for you, Acidfire! Yes, we need something better than ergodox!

That said, I am really not sure that the thumb spacings will work for someone with smaller hands. I just decided to sell an ergodox almost immediately after I got it, https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=62920.0
and the reason was that the thumb spaces were simply unacceptable to me.
[snip]
Do you feel that your current 3x3 thumb cluster is a bit too much work for the thumbs? Add to that you have to consider that thumbs are oriented differently from the rest of the fingers. It is still easier for thumbs to move INWARDS rather than horizontally up and down to trigger the keys on your tilted-horizontal 3x3 matrix. Methinks you can still tilt your thumb cluster at least 45 degrees.
Not particularly, and I think you'd be surprised at how well it would fit you hands. The whole reason we started down the road of an adjustable thumb cluster in the first place was the size difference between hands. Both my fiancee and a girl I work with have hands that are a full joint shorter than mine (their fingertips only reach the end of my 2nd row Phalanges) and with the thumb cluster brought right against the body and angled a bit, both found their thumbs resting in the center key which gives you an ideal reach to either side.

Good to hear you're OK, AcidFire.

I was wondering if it is possible to optionally swap thumb clusters between halves in order to have 1u keys on bottom row. In this case, middle row is closer to thumbs, therefore more suitable for smaller hands (berserkfan?).
Absolutely, that's one of the benefits of the modular design. It would take some tweaking of the layouts of course, but it's entirely possible to do.

The pointing device idea is good, but I just don't understand why manufacturers are no longer making the effort to research these. We're still stuck in a world where no matter how ergonomic our keyboard and layout is, we must constantly move our hands off the keyboard in order to use the mouse. What wouldn't I give to get a pointing device that doesn't require moving hands away from their happy home row resting position!

If only this could be incorporated on one of the thumb positions somehow! (Note that it doesn't have to be super accurate. It just needs to do regular mousing work. Remember, if you wanted some super mouse for CAD or professional gaming, ultimately you will still need to buy a real dedicated mouse.)
The problem with doing it with a trackball is size. Anything that will fit + sensors ends up being just a bit bigger than the blackberry trackballs which usually isn't all the comfortable to use. That being said, until I get the chance to explore it properly I won't rule it out either.

Good to hear of you, AcidFire.

...
I'm finding more and more myself hating to have to switch between keyboard and mouse.
It would be awesome to have pointing device embedded - e.g. as a stretch goal.

^^ this, I would like to see this as an extra as well. You are right switching between keyboard and mouse is not something that you want to do, but sometimes you have to. And I can't handle those little pointers in the middle of the keyboard. A bigger pad at a thumb would be interesting. You can give up one thumbkey for that pad, and you can map your mouse button action to any key that is comfortable.

I'll definitely keep it in mind. Even if it isn't part of the initial campaign, it should be something you're able to swap out down the road, and the handy thing is that you don't have to give up another key for the left mouse click, though you may for the right click.

Offline berserkfan

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Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Axios [In Development]
« Reply #1536 on: Thu, 20 November 2014, 18:38:28 »
Not particularly, and I think you'd be surprised at how well it would fit you hands. The whole reason we started down the road of an adjustable thumb cluster in the first place was the size difference between hands. Both my fiancee and a girl I work with have hands that are a full joint shorter than mine (their fingertips only reach the end of my 2nd row Phalanges) and with the thumb cluster brought right against the body and angled a bit, both found their thumbs resting in the center key which gives you an ideal reach to either side.
[/quote]

AH, I think I see what you're talking about. The picture you're showing isn't the only possible picture. The thumb cluster can still be adjusted/ moved to suit people's hands, is that what you're saying?
Most of the modding can be done on your own once you break through the psychological barriers.

Offline AcidFire

  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 399
  • Location: Calgary AB
    • Axios - The Open Source Modular Ergonomic Keyboard
Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Axios [In Development]
« Reply #1537 on: Thu, 20 November 2014, 19:51:02 »
AH, I think I see what you're talking about. The picture you're showing isn't the only possible picture. The thumb cluster can still be adjusted/ moved to suit people's hands, is that what you're saying?

Yup, thats the idea. Between angle and distance from the main body, there is a fair bit of flexibility in the hand sizing.

Offline berserkfan

  • Posts: 2135
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Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Axios [In Development]
« Reply #1538 on: Thu, 20 November 2014, 21:02:21 »
AH, I think I see what you're talking about. The picture you're showing isn't the only possible picture. The thumb cluster can still be adjusted/ moved to suit people's hands, is that what you're saying?

Yup, thats the idea. Between angle and distance from the main body, there is a fair bit of flexibility in the hand sizing.

 :thumb: :thumb: :thumb: :thumb: :thumb: :thumb: :thumb:

Too bad this forum doesn't have smileys that can applaud, like some fora do.

I do urge you to consider work on a pointing device. Having bought many things each incrementally better than the next, I think it would be very sad if you produced an awesome $250 board that most people thought would be great, then a few months later someone produced another awesome $250 keyboard that incorporated excellent pointing devices, causing people to give up your layout for the newer and more ergonomic keyboard. We're perpetually bleeding cash on slightly better things when will that end?

Really hate it that no manufacturer really wants to devote proper time to incorporating a good trackball onto the keyboard. Most options we've seen are not ergonomic, such as iScorpius which essentially pasted a trackball on the right side of the keyboard. Your 3D keyboard idea is truly the best I have seen in a long time, and it looks manageable too, unlike Kinesis with its one size fits all mentality. (EG on Kinesis homepage, the guy demo-ing the keyboard is clearly a guy with big hands.)
Most of the modding can be done on your own once you break through the psychological barriers.

Offline 0100010

  • Posts: 1127
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Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Axios [In Development]
« Reply #1539 on: Thu, 20 November 2014, 22:28:12 »
-snip- We're still stuck in a world where no matter how ergonomic our keyboard and layout is, we must constantly move our hands off the keyboard in order to use the mouse. What wouldn't I give to get a pointing device that doesn't require moving hands away from their happy home row resting position! -snip-

Does the iGrip count?

  Quoting me causes a posting error that you need to ignore.

Offline conandy

  • Posts: 43
  • Location: Denver, Colorado
Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Axios [In Development]
« Reply #1540 on: Thu, 20 November 2014, 23:47:05 »
Still alive!

As for those of you who have been asking for the ability to mount the units to a chair or other platform, behold:
Show Image

Show Image

Show Image

Show Image

Unfortunately my flexible photo arm wasn't the best example platform, but I'm definitely liking the balance so far. Might need a little bit of tweaking but it's definitely a feature that'll be included with the launch units.

As for my poor neglected forums, I'll be working with a friend to get them cleaned up and a bit more spam proofed.

Gotta say those pics of the chair arm mounted Axios are sexy!  Those mounts make it possible to have a seriously nice desk mounted base that could provide tenting and angle.

I am jonesing for one of these to play with.  Already have visions of Kerplop style customizing with track ball, etc.  And a one piece travel version.  etc. 

Glad to see you are still making progress.  I am passing up yet another Ergodox drop in anticipation. 

Offline jacobolus

  • Posts: 3661
  • Location: San Francisco, CA
Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Axios [In Development]
« Reply #1541 on: Fri, 21 November 2014, 00:28:48 »
Quote
Show Image
Gotta say those pics of the chair arm mounted Axios are sexy!  Those mounts make it possible to have a seriously nice desk mounted base that could provide tenting and angle.
Though the one pictured is not at the proper height relative to the armrest; the wrist in that picture is bent upward in a way that will put a lot of strain on the finger extensor muscles/tendons.

Offline JackMills

  • Posts: 153
Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Axios [In Development]
« Reply #1542 on: Fri, 21 November 2014, 00:38:59 »
Though the one pictured is not at the proper height relative to the armrest; the wrist in that picture is bent upward in a way that will put a lot of strain on the finger extensor muscles/tendons.

More
Still alive!
Between work and getting all the media/content prepped, I've been keeping my head down a bit more than I would like. I've now completely a couple of sets of parts both in printing and electronically so I've been hard at work getting content ready for the campaign. While I've been slaving away, I was asked to find a part I had mentioned to a friend that could suit his project, and the more and more I looked at it the more I realized it could suit the Axios as well.
Show Image

Show Image

These nifty little bastards sport a 4 way nav, 24 detent rotary wheel, and click center. Originally I was hoping they might make a good mouse substitute, but sadly the 4 way has too long of a reach, and they're fairly large. However, due to their specs, I'm going to build something similar to what you see with the prototype so that I can map them to various editing functions since the rotarys are great for that sort of thing. This device will eventually run the same controller that's in the Axios, but it's on hold until the keyboard is well on it's way.

That did however lead to a bit of determination, since I'm finding more and more myself hating to have to switch between keyboard and mouse. After much googling and pouring over datasheets, I think I've found an excellent pointing device.
Show Image

It's a hall effect sensor with a rather nice return to center spring as well as click. It's the right size to potentially work as a drop in replacement for a key, and is i2c compatible to boot so it's super simple to hook up. The controller even supports two addresses, so you'd be able to have one on each side if you wanted. Again, while a pleasant discovery it's being set aside until the main project is done, but I'm excited for the prospect of it.

As for those of you who have been asking for the ability to mount the units to a chair or other platform, behold:
Show Image

Show Image

Show Image

Show Image

Unfortunately my flexible photo arm wasn't the best example platform, but I'm definitely liking the balance so far. Might need a little bit of tweaking but it's definitely a feature that'll be included with the launch units.

As for my poor neglected forums, I'll be working with a friend to get them cleaned up and a bit more spam proofed.

I think AcidFire addresses this himself by saying this is not the best example. But as a principle it is a very neat feature to have and it is not offered by similar devices. And although you are correct about the positioning, that still will be a personal preference about comfort. Even with all the features to make it ergonomic as possible, people will have setup that can be far from ideal because they think it feel better.



Offline sheeap

  • Posts: 9
  • Location: Calgary
Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Axios [In Development]
« Reply #1543 on: Fri, 21 November 2014, 01:39:07 »
I think this is the thread I have watched the most in my life. Okay, okay, compared to a lot on here I haven't watched many, but I am very much enjoying the development of this project. Great work AcidFire! And I am only a little biased because I live in Calgary too :D. It was pretty funny how excited I was when I found that out; you know, hometown pride and all. And don't worry, no stalking inclinations here ;).

I would just like to say that I have gone through a decent number of pointing devices for my RSI symptoms, and the best option I have found is to use a trackpad with one hand in conjunction with performing mouse clicks/shortcuts on the keyboard with the other hand. I am currently trying to figure out how to mount the trackpad vertically above my Kinesis Advantage. Here is a link to the related GH post: https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=65895.0

Maybe an option down the road for the Axios is to offer a mount that would position a trackpad vertically above the keyboard ;).

Offline tups

  • Posts: 21
Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Axios [In Development]
« Reply #1544 on: Fri, 21 November 2014, 06:51:03 »
Personally I'm not interested in mouse emulators on a keyboard (I have a rather odd method of putting the mouse between the halves of my ErgoDox at the moment), but those scrolling hats could be nice for editing (emulating left/right key presses on scroll, for example). Much more interested in seeing the current keyboard prototype in production, however ;)

Offline yakitysax

  • Posts: 51
Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Axios [In Development]
« Reply #1545 on: Sat, 22 November 2014, 01:20:09 »
Still alive!
Between work and getting all the media/content prepped, I've been keeping my head down a bit more than I would like. I've now completely a couple of sets of parts both in printing and electronically so I've been hard at work getting content ready for the campaign. While I've been slaving away, I was asked to find a part I had mentioned to a friend that could suit his project, and the more and more I looked at it the more I realized it could suit the Axios as well.
Show Image

Show Image

These nifty little bastards sport a 4 way nav, 24 detent rotary wheel, and click center. Originally I was hoping they might make a good mouse substitute, but sadly the 4 way has too long of a reach, and they're fairly large. However, due to their specs, I'm going to build something similar to what you see with the prototype so that I can map them to various editing functions since the rotarys are great for that sort of thing. This device will eventually run the same controller that's in the Axios, but it's on hold until the keyboard is well on it's way.

That did however lead to a bit of determination, since I'm finding more and more myself hating to have to switch between keyboard and mouse. After much googling and pouring over datasheets, I think I've found an excellent pointing device.
Show Image

It's a hall effect sensor with a rather nice return to center spring as well as click. It's the right size to potentially work as a drop in replacement for a key, and is i2c compatible to boot so it's super simple to hook up. The controller even supports two addresses, so you'd be able to have one on each side if you wanted. Again, while a pleasant discovery it's being set aside until the main project is done, but I'm excited for the prospect of it.

As for those of you who have been asking for the ability to mount the units to a chair or other platform, behold:
Show Image

Show Image

Show Image

Show Image

Unfortunately my flexible photo arm wasn't the best example platform, but I'm definitely liking the balance so far. Might need a little bit of tweaking but it's definitely a feature that'll be included with the launch units.

As for my poor neglected forums, I'll be working with a friend to get them cleaned up and a bit more spam proofed.
It is amusing/interesting that you have arrived at this same solution that I have been working on with a custom keyboard of my own that uses hall effect microjoysticks in it, motivated by recurring friction caused by how incompetently designed keyboards are and OS side key chording limitations. I am not surprised though with how creative and ambitious that you have been already in this design. I'm working on it at present when I have some time, and I'll report back to you once I have it implemented sanely. Surprisingly, out of the joysticks which are suitable for the embedded design arrived at, there is not a great deal of supply for them; additionally, the ones which incorporate a default joystick cap is not that comfortable, and there are a lot that I have tried which require too much force or are too insensitive for this purpose. It is definitely much trial and error finding ones that work here. This is so obviously the solution and logical conclusion of the trackpoints that IBM has utilized and such an effective solution to the problems of keyboarding design that it is shocking that none have done so in a manner which implements this logical conclusion.
« Last Edit: Sat, 22 November 2014, 01:23:53 by yakitysax »

Offline Koren

  • Posts: 133
  • Location: France
Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Axios [In Development]
« Reply #1546 on: Sat, 22 November 2014, 07:36:14 »
but those scrolling hats could be nice for editing (emulating left/right key presses on scroll, for example).
If you can get spares and they are easy to replace...

Because all products I have with those wheels have had problems with them. After some moderate use, there's plently of issues (including left rotations that produce sometimes right movements). I'm curious if AcidFire's ones are of a higher quality.

Offline user888

  • Posts: 42
Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Axios [In Development]
« Reply #1547 on: Sat, 22 November 2014, 09:32:26 »
@tups I'm with you, no mouse emulators (or an option to order without or disable it). Nothing can beat my Apple Magic Mouse.

Offline CommunistWitchDr

  • Posts: 479
  • Location: St. Louis, MO
  • >implying keyboards
Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Axios [In Development]
« Reply #1548 on: Mon, 24 November 2014, 23:17:49 »
More
Still alive!
Between work and getting all the media/content prepped, I've been keeping my head down a bit more than I would like. I've now completely a couple of sets of parts both in printing and electronically so I've been hard at work getting content ready for the campaign. While I've been slaving away, I was asked to find a part I had mentioned to a friend that could suit his project, and the more and more I looked at it the more I realized it could suit the Axios as well.
Show Image

Show Image

These nifty little bastards sport a 4 way nav, 24 detent rotary wheel, and click center. Originally I was hoping they might make a good mouse substitute, but sadly the 4 way has too long of a reach, and they're fairly large. However, due to their specs, I'm going to build something similar to what you see with the prototype so that I can map them to various editing functions since the rotarys are great for that sort of thing. This device will eventually run the same controller that's in the Axios, but it's on hold until the keyboard is well on it's way.

That did however lead to a bit of determination, since I'm finding more and more myself hating to have to switch between keyboard and mouse. After much googling and pouring over datasheets, I think I've found an excellent pointing device.
Show Image

It's a hall effect sensor with a rather nice return to center spring as well as click. It's the right size to potentially work as a drop in replacement for a key, and is i2c compatible to boot so it's super simple to hook up. The controller even supports two addresses, so you'd be able to have one on each side if you wanted. Again, while a pleasant discovery it's being set aside until the main project is done, but I'm excited for the prospect of it.

As for those of you who have been asking for the ability to mount the units to a chair or other platform, behold:
Show Image

Show Image

Show Image

Show Image

Unfortunately my flexible photo arm wasn't the best example platform, but I'm definitely liking the balance so far. Might need a little bit of tweaking but it's definitely a feature that'll be included with the launch units.

As for my poor neglected forums, I'll be working with a friend to get them cleaned up and a bit more spam proofed.

Wow, everything's looking great. Really like the mounting and the drop in mouse.

Offline jeep

  • Posts: 33
  • Location: Hillsboro
Re: AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Nexus [In Development]
« Reply #1549 on: Tue, 25 November 2014, 12:42:14 »
Speaking of keycaps, I'm currently looking at swapping the 2x/1x/1x on the big thumb clusters to 1.5x/1.5x/1x to make the secondary row more functional/easier to strike.

This change seems good. After working on the ergodox, I keep complaining about the 1u/2u configuration. I want either 1/1/1 or 1.5/1.5.