Author Topic: Keyswitch ID thread  (Read 5863 times)

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Offline Melvang

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Keyswitch ID thread
« on: Tue, 06 August 2013, 08:54:35 »
Starting this thread to help people try and ID some key switches on boards you might be bidding on via online auctions or stuff you may have already picked up.  Links and pics would be greatly appreaciated.  I will start with 2 that I have found.

I am going to start this by saying you should probably check here first and you just might find what you are looking for.

First one on my list is listed as a Eaton Kenway E3-1901-01
30554-0
30556-1

Second one is listed as Digital Keyboard for VT100 Terminal
30558-2
30560-3

Also if anyone would like to add one to the wiki on DT's site there is a ADDS 522-15634 ASCII Terminal Keyboard that I am pretty sure uses the NMB Hi-Tek switches
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Offline CPTBadAss

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Re: Keyswitch ID thread
« Reply #1 on: Tue, 06 August 2013, 09:00:13 »
Eaton Kenway E3-1901-01
Looks like Beamspring, there might be pics here but I can't see most of them at work.


Digital Keyboard for VT100 Terminal
Looks like some form of NMB with a weird stem.

Offline Melvang

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Re: Keyswitch ID thread
« Reply #2 on: Tue, 06 August 2013, 09:07:43 »
excellent thanx CPT.  Now if only I had the spare money to purchase that bottom beauty.  Although I do have a couple on the way.  Pics possible to follow here when they arrive.
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Offline Daniel Beardsmore

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Re: Keyswitch ID thread
« Reply #3 on: Tue, 06 August 2013, 19:13:54 »
The switches in the VT100 are the subject of ongoing research. There's an Atari forum post which implies that Stackpole and Hi-Tek Corporation switches are very similar, and claims that the keyboard manufacturer is Stackpole (for a photo depicting switches similar to those in the VT100). Hi-Tek went on to produce the "space invader" switch; there's no evidence confirming an acquisition of Hi-Tek Corporation by NMB, although the wording on keyboard labels pretty much confirms it. We don't know for sure whether NMB had any part in the design of the space invader switches.

There are more obvious mysteries. One particular switch has been branded as SMK, NEC, and Maxi-Switch, who were all keyswitch manufacturers in their own right — shared design, or a bizarre rebranding exercise? (The logo is only visible if you desolder and remove the PCB!) GRI sell switches identical to Futaba's old switches, but with GRI branding. I've not been able to get any samples, and no word from GRI as to who actually made them.

In the case of the VT100 etc, did Stackpole simply buy in switches from Hi-Tek for their OEM keyboard production? Did one company copy the other? There's no evidence to prove that either company actually made these switches (Monterey never made the "Monterey" switches, for example; they're SMK). The Oric Atmos keyboard has "Stackpole" on the PCB, but that's not proof of switch manufacturer. There's another keyboard somewhere with "Stackpole" on it.

It's all guesswork. I'm trying to track down anyone at ITW Ark-Les (who may be the old Stackpole switch division) to see if we can find anything out. The old switch division is no longer part of Stackpole. It's a real stretch given the age of this design.

Incidentally, the VT100 switches are actually different to the design used everywhere else.
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Offline Daniel Beardsmore

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Re: Keyswitch ID thread
« Reply #4 on: Tue, 06 August 2013, 19:24:39 »
Oh, and the top ones are from Micro Switch. They're not the common Honeywell Hall-Effect switch, though, either in style or in part number.

HaaTa is your man for Honeywell/Micro Switch products.
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Offline Parak

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Re: Keyswitch ID thread
« Reply #5 on: Tue, 06 August 2013, 19:35:52 »
Yar, they're the older (and by some descriptions crappier) hall effects by honeywell/micro switch.

Edit: The LED variant might be a new discovery though.

Offline Melvang

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Re: Keyswitch ID thread
« Reply #6 on: Tue, 06 August 2013, 19:46:13 »
Forgive my noobness guys but what is the operating principal on a hall effect switch and possibly how do they feel?

Also awesome info guys.
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Offline CPTBadAss

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Re: Keyswitch ID thread
« Reply #7 on: Tue, 06 August 2013, 19:47:40 »
Wow, that knowledge bomb was amazing. Love when I'm wrong

Offline HaaTa

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Re: Keyswitch ID thread
« Reply #8 on: Tue, 06 August 2013, 22:14:02 »
Lots of people sending me links on that hall effect keyboard today :P Sadly a little too expensive for me to consider.

But yes, it's a Honeywell Hall Effect, vintage style switch. I haven't started decoding the switch codes for the vintage switches yet (not enough of a data spread yet as not all switches have printed codes I believe).
The white sliders are super interesting as they look to have individual lamps in each switch! Way cool! (never seen this in a honeywell hall effect switch).

For those that aren't familiar, a Hall Effect switch use a magnetic field change to signal key actuations (e.g. moving magnet in slider up and down). This means it will last virtually forever (until the spring or dies) as there is no metal to metal contact or wear.
There are different methods of detecting the magnetic field change, Honeywell Hall Effect switches uses a transducer (microchip) that can detect magnetic field strength. Once a certain threshold is passed it will signal a keypress.
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Re: Keyswitch ID thread
« Reply #9 on: Tue, 06 August 2013, 22:18:45 »
Also, looking at another auction (also too high).

This one also has the lap switches it seems (look in the first pic at the white sliders and view keycaps).
http://www.ebay.com/itm/330732972326
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Offline Melvang

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Re: Keyswitch ID thread
« Reply #10 on: Wed, 07 August 2013, 10:49:02 »
Any idea what switches would be in this

http://www.ebay.com/itm/HP-Vintage-Keyboard-for-HP-9816-Series-200-Computer-/110541872767?pt=PCA_Mice_Trackballs&hash=item19bccf1e7f

Found this lovely specimen after a quick google search.  Still not sure what the switches are though.  But if you browse through the pics on the site there is clearly a cap with a pi symbol printed on the front of the cap.  Love it
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Offline HaaTa

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Re: Keyswitch ID thread
« Reply #11 on: Wed, 07 August 2013, 11:49:06 »
Looks like Stackpole switches to me. Daniel Beardsmore may know more though.
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Offline Daniel Beardsmore

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Re: Keyswitch ID thread
« Reply #12 on: Wed, 07 August 2013, 12:52:46 »
Found this lovely specimen after a quick google search.

Oooo looky!!!!!

That's a Hi-Tek keyboard. Not only does it says "Hi-Tek" on the PCB, it also says "Hi-Tek Corporation" on the plastic moulding that supports most of the switches. Now compare that flat solid moulding with the hollow, strutted moulding on this very similar HP keyboard:

http://deskthority.net/photos-videos-f8/hp2382a-terminal-keyboard-t5471.html

That is a fantastic find.

OK, so now we have 100% proof that Hi-Tek Corporation and Stackpole both produced OEM keyboards with virtually identical switches. That keyboard above also shows that the switches could be obtained in discrete form.

The question remains: what is the relationship? As I mentioned, this is like the SMK/NEC/Maxi and Futaba/GRI arrangements where several companies sell the same switch under their own name. The exact details, however ...

What it does finally prove is that the "space invader" switch is a direct descendent of an earlier design that Hi-Tek used, even if they didn't make it.
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Offline Melvang

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Re: Keyswitch ID thread
« Reply #13 on: Wed, 07 August 2013, 12:55:08 »
Alright Daniel you are making me want to spend the 125 on this just to preserve the history of this piece on Ebay.  Only problem is the wife told me no more spending money on keyboards until after keycon
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Re: Keyswitch ID thread
« Reply #14 on: Wed, 07 August 2013, 12:59:28 »
All I care about is getting to the bottom of who made these switches and getting free-use images for the wikis to illustrate them nicely :)

Mystery switches == intellectual anguish :)
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Offline Melvang

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Re: Keyswitch ID thread
« Reply #15 on: Wed, 07 August 2013, 13:00:44 »
I hear you 100% on the intellectual anguish.  That is exactly how i felt the first time around when I was trying to program my own firmware on my now defunct phantom.
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Offline CPTBadAss

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Re: Keyswitch ID thread
« Reply #16 on: Wed, 07 August 2013, 13:15:54 »
my now defunct phantom.

What happened to it??

Only problem is the wife told me no more spending money on keyboards until after keycon

Only problem is....you might be spending money on keyboard stuff at Keycon too :P

Offline Melvang

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Re: Keyswitch ID thread
« Reply #17 on: Wed, 07 August 2013, 13:21:02 »
my now defunct phantom.

What happened to it??

Due to cheap solder sucker and lack of experience I lifted 3 pads and half a trace between pads for a diode

Only problem is the wife told me no more spending money on keyboards until after keycon

Only problem is....you might be spending money on keyboard stuff at Keycon too :P

Very true.  If I happen to spot a 15x spacebar it will be bought.  So attendees if you got one bring it.  I have a planned layout posted here
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Re: Keyswitch ID thread
« Reply #18 on: Wed, 07 August 2013, 18:36:55 »
OK, a few thoughts …

Some of those switches on the HP 9816 keyboard actually have the Hi-Tek Corporation logo on them, exactly as found on space invader switches. So that indicates that they're Hi-Tek made. It looks like most of them are discrete switches. It's a real mixture of different switch shells in what seems to be an attempt to ensure that they all touch, regardless of spacing.

The Oric Atmos Stackpole keyboard has the strutted assembly, which in some cases does appear to be a single moulding; in other cases, it's conceivably discrete switches.

I need to do some more digging and see if I can get any other PCB identifications. This is, though, the first time I've ever seen the discrete design above.
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Offline dorkvader

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Re: Keyswitch ID thread
« Reply #19 on: Thu, 08 August 2013, 20:45:01 »
Yar, they're the older (and by some descriptions crappier) hall effects by honeywell/micro switch.

Edit: The LED variant might be a new discovery though.
They tend to bind up if hit off axis. If you let this happen too many times, you see noticeable wear on the stems. Lubrication solves the issue, and less well used switches feel much nicer.

That first KB has PCB mount vintage hall effect switches, which I've not seen too often before. You can see where the plates would normally contact the housing. I would assume they are screwed to the PCB on the back, but my (and almost all the others I've seen) vintage hall effect switches do not support that (modern ones do, though). Very interesting (that I missed it in my eBay searching)!

If you look close, you can see "micro USA" and a mounting direction arrow on the top.

There are several of these hall effect KB's on eBay, and they never sell. I've wanted to get one (they vary in price) but sellers always ask too much
http://www.ebay.com/itm/330732972326

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Re: Keyswitch ID thread
« Reply #20 on: Fri, 09 August 2013, 05:37:32 »
Got one.  It can't be RD at 8lbs shipping weight according to the page.  My guess would be foam/foil?  This is a complete stab in the dark.  Can someone shed some light on this?  But all I can say about his beauty is, DAT TAB.  Love the side printed 1.5 keys as well, but enough teasing here is the link.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/NBI-4000-94-Key-terminal-Keyboard-/151089233064?pt=PCA_Mice_Trackballs&hash=item232d9ebca8


These would be Cherry M8 correct?
« Last Edit: Fri, 09 August 2013, 05:46:50 by Melvang »
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Offline CPTBadAss

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Re: Keyswitch ID thread
« Reply #21 on: Fri, 09 August 2013, 06:12:17 »
Dorkvader has a Marquardt Military Keyboard. Think he said it was 7 lbs and its an RD. Wouldnt be so quick to judge

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Re: Keyswitch ID thread
« Reply #22 on: Fri, 09 August 2013, 06:32:07 »
But anything build for military is just stupid heavy unless it is for anything on the avation side even then there are exceptions.  The balistic decking for the H-60s are almost a 3 person lift and they are smaller in surface area than a 4x8 sheet
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Re: Keyswitch ID thread
« Reply #23 on: Fri, 09 August 2013, 06:39:45 »
These would be Cherry M8 correct?

Judging from the pictures from the DT Wiki the switches look like a M8 switch with a cross stem and a molded plastic seal for a top.

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Re: Keyswitch ID thread
« Reply #24 on: Fri, 09 August 2013, 12:14:33 »
The ones in the Televideo 910 are Futaba complicated linear.

@CPTBadAss: the Deskthority wiki section on M8 is incomplete. There are M8 switches that do have a lid, but it's completely flat. The open variety appear to have been a space-saving choice, based on the significant difference in height.
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Offline dorkvader

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Re: Keyswitch ID thread
« Reply #25 on: Fri, 09 August 2013, 13:33:51 »
Got one.  It can't be RD at 8lbs shipping weight according to the page.  My guess would be foam/foil?  This is a complete stab in the dark.  Can someone shed some light on this?  But all I can say about his beauty is, DAT TAB.  Love the side printed 1.5 keys as well, but enough teasing here is the link.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/NBI-4000-94-Key-terminal-Keyboard-/151089233064?pt=PCA_Mice_Trackballs&hash=item232d9ebca8


These would be Cherry M8 correct?
The televideo appears to be linear futaba (simplified)

You can tell futaba's because their pins are super thick (and have to have large pads) and parallel (smk are slightly offset, sort of like the difference between cherry and alps pinouts). I believe the stems are rotated 90 degrees between the complicated (which are either usually or always black with red bottoms) and the simplified (usually white I think)

edit: looks like a complicated linear from the pictures. sorry for the confusion.

Dorkvader has a Marquardt Military Keyboard. Think he said it was 7 lbs and its an RD. Wouldnt be so quick to judge
I have an alphametric millitary KB which is pretty light due to the magnesium case. I'd like a marquardt millitary KB (as they do weigh a lot) but they aren't RD. My KB was for a troop carrier with 8 wheels.

The NBI keyboard has keytronic-compatible sliders. Not sure if that helps or not (as my military kb also has keytronic compatible sliders) but given the age, it's likely a keytronic of some sort.
« Last Edit: Fri, 09 August 2013, 13:43:44 by dorkvader »

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Re: Keyswitch ID thread
« Reply #26 on: Fri, 09 August 2013, 13:54:01 »
[Futaba] complicated (which are either usually or always black with red bottoms) and the simplified (usually white I think)

The external difference is the location of the plate retention clips: at the sides (complicated) or top/bottom (simplified). I have no idea what the colour signifies at the moment. Most keyboards use the complicated switches; I've not seen a simplified one other than in the BBC Micro — must have been a typical British cost-cutting exercise :) (Which is fair enough considering what you got for the price of the computer.)
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Offline DamienG

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Re: Keyswitch ID thread
« Reply #27 on: Sat, 24 August 2013, 11:37:29 »
This guy disassembled one of the keyswitches in his BBC Micro - not sure how similar it looks

http://stardot.org.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=5138

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Re: Keyswitch ID thread
« Reply #28 on: Sat, 24 August 2013, 13:02:17 »
BBC Micro Type 1, as pictured at Stardot, is Futaba simplified linear. They are a lot simpler inside than the complicated linear switches used in the Televideo hardware. It appears to be the basis of the miniaturised version that seems to have followed (the one used in the BBC Master), and possibly still sold by George Risk as the KBM-LP (I'm still trying to get hold of a pack).

That Stardot topic is the one that taught me how to open the switches — you can severely damage the switch trying to open it if you don't realise that the legs are threaded!
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Re: Keyswitch ID thread
« Reply #29 on: Sat, 24 August 2013, 13:15:07 »
Dorkvader has a Marquardt Military Keyboard. Think he said it was 7 lbs and its an RD. Wouldnt be so quick to judge
I have an alphametric millitary KB which is pretty light due to the magnesium case. I'd like a marquardt millitary KB (as they do weigh a lot) but they aren't RD. My KB was for a troop carrier with 8 wheels.

The NBI keyboard has keytronic-compatible sliders. Not sure if that helps or not (as my military kb also has keytronic compatible sliders) but given the age, it's likely a keytronic of some sort.

@CPTBadAss: the Deskthority wiki section on M8 is incomplete. There are M8 switches that do have a lid, but it's completely flat. The open variety appear to have been a space-saving choice, based on the significant difference in height.

Man...you guys are awesome. So much knowledge right there. I think I should keep assuming stuff and being wrong so you two can educate me more :D