Author Topic: Rare IBM Model M keyboard with square crystal... Not really.  (Read 6459 times)

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Offline snuci

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Rare IBM Model M keyboard with square crystal... Not really.
« on: Sat, 17 August 2013, 08:49:21 »
I want to apologize for posting this but those who are Googling for information on this "rare" keyboard need to find it in a reputable place.

I'm new here and am not really a keyboard enthusiast but I signed up after looking around for info on the "IBM Model M keyboard with the Mandolin Crystal".  I won't post a link because the eBay auction is still on and he doesn't need any more advertising but this keyboard keeps popping up in the Vintage section of eBay so I had to look.   After opening two of my Model Ms that look like his, they both have this "rare" crystal.  So now there are two more "publicly known".

I'm assuming this is a farce unless there is some scarcity to this.  A friend at IBM gave me a few keyboards because I loved using the one I had several years ago so I cracked two open.  Next to the crumbs and a few plastic rivet tops that had come off was the magic crystal.  I collect vintage computers so they are nice to have but this has to be a joke, right?

32145-0

After reading past threads I don't think they are all that rare.  At least I now have some work t do to finally clean up, at least, those two keyboards.
« Last Edit: Sat, 17 August 2013, 08:57:25 by snuci »

Offline SpAmRaY

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Re: Rare IBM Model M keyboard with square crystal... Not really.
« Reply #1 on: Sat, 17 August 2013, 08:55:15 »
Do we need multiple threads about scamdolin?

http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=47176.msg1002217.msg#1002217

Offline snuci

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Re: Rare IBM Model M keyboard with square crystal... Not really.
« Reply #2 on: Sat, 17 August 2013, 08:59:40 »
Sorry, I missed that one.  If someone can merge a thread, please go ahead.

Thanks.

Offline nubbinator

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Re: Rare IBM Model M keyboard with square crystal... Not really.
« Reply #3 on: Sun, 18 August 2013, 03:51:46 »
eBay listing for those wondering.  Yes, it's Mandolin, the user who spammed their way to 60 to try and sell things before discovering that most GHers weren't going to fall for his ridiculous hype and attempts to drive up ridiculous prices with fake notions of rarity.  This is like the 3rd or 4th time he's tried to scam someone into paying an obscene amount for a keyboard that isn't worth a fraction of what he's trying to get for it.  Even more ridiculous is the fact that it's up for 2-4x what it was up for on eBay last time.

Offline rootwyrm

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Re: Rare IBM Model M keyboard with square crystal... Not really.
« Reply #4 on: Sun, 18 August 2013, 05:18:42 »
Yeah, we don't need another thread about scamdolin.

The square crystals are in fact, pretty rare by comparison to can. But 2-3x more expensive rare? No. Just no.
There's no functional difference, no outward appearing difference, and failed crystals are rare to begin with. Which is exactly why they're rare - a suitable can crystal costs a whopping $0.17 today. Yes, that's seventeen cents. A suitable pin-select oscillator costs $1.35 by comparison. Or about 8 times as much for a single component which offers no measurable improvement.
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Offline dem0critus

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Re: Rare IBM Model M keyboard with square crystal... Not really.
« Reply #5 on: Sun, 18 August 2013, 12:18:55 »
I want to apologize for posting this but those who are Googling for information on this "rare" keyboard need to find it in a reputable place.

I'm new here and am not really a keyboard enthusiast but I signed up after looking around for info on the "IBM Model M keyboard with the Mandolin Crystal".  I won't post a link because the eBay auction is still on and he doesn't need any more advertising but this keyboard keeps popping up in the Vintage section of eBay so I had to look.   After opening two of my Model Ms that look like his, they both have this "rare" crystal.  So now there are two more "publicly known".

I'm assuming this is a farce unless there is some scarcity to this.  A friend at IBM gave me a few keyboards because I loved using the one I had several years ago so I cracked two open.  Next to the crumbs and a few plastic rivet tops that had come off was the magic crystal.  I collect vintage computers so they are nice to have but this has to be a joke, right?

(Attachment Link)

After reading past threads I don't think they are all that rare.  At least I now have some work t do to finally clean up, at least, those two keyboards.

Well, you should consider yourself lucky, because you've basically just found #7 and #8 of the rarest keyboards evar!!!  You're clearly sitting on a goldmine of mystical time traveling devices.. clearly.

Offline pexon

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Re: Rare IBM Model M keyboard with square crystal... Not really.
« Reply #6 on: Sun, 18 August 2013, 13:08:11 »
About to hit Buy it Now, just need to know if this board will let me transcend into the 12th dimenson and allow me to converse with sentient beings from Kolloch'Mag 12

Offline SpAmRaY

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Re: Rare IBM Model M keyboard with square crystal... Not really.
« Reply #7 on: Sun, 18 August 2013, 13:10:52 »
About to hit Buy it Now, just need to know if this board will let me transcend into the 12th dimenson and allow me to converse with sentient beings from Kolloch'Mag 12

This guy is the crystal master.

http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=33429.msg1003359.msg#1003359

Offline dem0critus

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Re: Rare IBM Model M keyboard with square crystal... Not really.
« Reply #8 on: Sun, 18 August 2013, 13:14:14 »
About to hit Buy it Now, just need to know if this board will let me transcend into the 12th dimenson and allow me to converse with sentient beings from Kolloch'Mag 12

This guy is the crystal master.

http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=33429.msg1003359.msg#1003359

HAHA wow..  the gall.
just noticed this: http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=44844.msg932659#msg932659
yeah.....
« Last Edit: Sun, 18 August 2013, 13:20:58 by dem0critus »

Offline dorkvader

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Re: Rare IBM Model M keyboard with square crystal... Not really.
« Reply #9 on: Sun, 18 August 2013, 14:47:54 »
It's a safe bet that all IBM 1390120 and 1390131's made before the middle of 1986 or so will have this. I'm not sure about the industrial, but I imagine it's got it as well.

Basically, it just indicates an older model keyboard, which is usually sought after for other reasons (barcode label, older = better, thick plate, etc.)

Offline ComradeSniper

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Re: Rare IBM Model M keyboard with square crystal... Not really.
« Reply #10 on: Sun, 18 August 2013, 15:48:06 »
About to hit Buy it Now, just need to know if this board will let me transcend into the 12th dimenson and allow me to converse with sentient beings from Kolloch'Mag 12

This guy is the crystal master.

http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=33429.msg1003359.msg#1003359

HAHA wow..  the gall.
just noticed this: http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=44844.msg932659#msg932659
yeah.....

Why hasn't he been banned yet?

Offline SpAmRaY

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Re: Rare IBM Model M keyboard with square crystal... Not really.
« Reply #11 on: Sun, 18 August 2013, 15:50:06 »
About to hit Buy it Now, just need to know if this board will let me transcend into the 12th dimenson and allow me to converse with sentient beings from Kolloch'Mag 12

This guy is the crystal master.

http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=33429.msg1003359.msg#1003359

HAHA wow..  the gall.
just noticed this: http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=44844.msg932659#msg932659
yeah.....

Why hasn't he been banned yet?

Because he knows so long as he behaves here the mods and admins could care less about his eBay racket

Offline dem0critus

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Re: Rare IBM Model M keyboard with square crystal... Not really.
« Reply #12 on: Sun, 18 August 2013, 17:05:59 »
About to hit Buy it Now, just need to know if this board will let me transcend into the 12th dimenson and allow me to converse with sentient beings from Kolloch'Mag 12

This guy is the crystal master.

http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=33429.msg1003359.msg#1003359

HAHA wow..  the gall.
just noticed this: http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=44844.msg932659#msg932659
yeah.....

Why hasn't he been banned yet?

Because he knows so long as he behaves here the mods and admins could care less about his eBay racket

should just make a thread with all the other "rare mandolin crystal" keyboards so people figure it out..

edit: on second thought, that might just be feeding the troll, i dunno.
« Last Edit: Sun, 18 August 2013, 17:11:17 by dem0critus »

Offline snuci

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Re: Rare IBM Model M keyboard with square crystal... Not really.
« Reply #13 on: Mon, 19 August 2013, 17:52:48 »
It's a safe bet that all IBM 1390120 and 1390131's made before the middle of 1986 or so will have this. I'm not sure about the industrial, but I imagine it's got it as well.

Basically, it just indicates an older model keyboard, which is usually sought after for other reasons (barcode label, older = better, thick plate, etc.)

Yes, mine are January 13, 1986 and February 19, 1986 keyboards ad have full labels on the back.  You can see yourself in the Jan 13, 1986 metal plate.  The Feb 19, 1986 is more opaque.  That January one is pretty early at ID 10712.  It would be number 4 on the database of 1390120 Model Ms at Clickykeyboards.  For comparison, the one in the ebay auction is appears to be June 19, 1986. 

I should start using it again.  It was my primary keyboard at work for years.  I had to switch because if I was talking to Tech Support on a speakerphone and I was typing something in, nobody on the other end could hear me :)

Offline rootwyrm

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Re: Rare IBM Model M keyboard with square crystal... Not really.
« Reply #14 on: Mon, 19 August 2013, 18:49:50 »
It's a safe bet that all IBM 1390120 and 1390131's made before the middle of 1986 or so will have this. I'm not sure about the industrial, but I imagine it's got it as well.

Basically, it just indicates an older model keyboard, which is usually sought after for other reasons (barcode label, older = better, thick plate, etc.)

Industrial varies, actually, it turns out. The actual proper industrial models are identifiable by their extended temperature range components. In some cases, that means the 4 pin oscillator, while in others it means an extended temperature range can crystal. As I said: there's no functional difference between the two. They're both +-100ppm or +-50ppm parts depending on controller version, though the oscillator (4 pin square) typically has a slightly wider temperature range.

The annoying thing is that I've noticed some of the oscillator controllers use the SAME part number as the controller PCBs. I don't know if that's because these PCBs support both - though I've never seen a can setup that can also accept the oscillator - or because IBM just said "screw it, let's not give it a new PN."
"I remain convinced I am the only person alive who has successfully worn out an IBM Model M mechanically."
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Offline bitslasher

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Re: Rare IBM Model M keyboard with square crystal... Not really.
« Reply #15 on: Mon, 19 August 2013, 19:20:39 »
It's a safe bet that all IBM 1390120 and 1390131's made before the middle of 1986 or so will have this. I'm not sure about the industrial, but I imagine it's got it as well.

Basically, it just indicates an older model keyboard, which is usually sought after for other reasons (barcode label, older = better, thick plate, etc.)

Industrial varies, actually, it turns out. The actual proper industrial models are identifiable by their extended temperature range components. In some cases, that means the 4 pin oscillator, while in others it means an extended temperature range can crystal. As I said: there's no functional difference between the two. They're both +-100ppm or +-50ppm parts depending on controller version, though the oscillator (4 pin square) typically has a slightly wider temperature range.

The annoying thing is that I've noticed some of the oscillator controllers use the SAME part number as the controller PCBs. I don't know if that's because these PCBs support both - though I've never seen a can setup that can also accept the oscillator - or because IBM just said "screw it, let's not give it a new PN."

I also have two boards with the crystal oscillator as well, one is a 1388032 (17 DEC 1985) and the other is a 1390131 (17 APR 1986), both made in USA.  Actually, my two keyboards have the EXACT same controller boards.  Maybe back then they hadn't cheapened down the vanilla model M to the extent that they really needed to have a separate "Industrial" keyboard.

Offline rootwyrm

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Re: Rare IBM Model M keyboard with square crystal... Not really.
« Reply #16 on: Mon, 19 August 2013, 19:55:25 »
It's a safe bet that all IBM 1390120 and 1390131's made before the middle of 1986 or so will have this. I'm not sure about the industrial, but I imagine it's got it as well.

Basically, it just indicates an older model keyboard, which is usually sought after for other reasons (barcode label, older = better, thick plate, etc.)

Industrial varies, actually, it turns out. The actual proper industrial models are identifiable by their extended temperature range components. In some cases, that means the 4 pin oscillator, while in others it means an extended temperature range can crystal. As I said: there's no functional difference between the two. They're both +-100ppm or +-50ppm parts depending on controller version, though the oscillator (4 pin square) typically has a slightly wider temperature range.

The annoying thing is that I've noticed some of the oscillator controllers use the SAME part number as the controller PCBs. I don't know if that's because these PCBs support both - though I've never seen a can setup that can also accept the oscillator - or because IBM just said "screw it, let's not give it a new PN."

I also have two boards with the crystal oscillator as well, one is a 1388032 (17 DEC 1985) and the other is a 1390131 (17 APR 1986), both made in USA.  Actually, my two keyboards have the EXACT same controller boards.  Maybe back then they hadn't cheapened down the vanilla model M to the extent that they really needed to have a separate "Industrial" keyboard.

Most examples of the Industrial I've seen have the range extended on the LOW side over the high side, as the stock / base components are more than sufficient for the high side. If you check the capacitors, the temperature rating is already on them - and it's usually 85C. That's the typical range for computer use capacitors, and far above what you'll see in even the power devouring hot running M13's. They only had to make some minor swaps to get the low side down to prevent component level hysteresis - crystals tend to lose accuracy or fail at temperatures below normal operating range.

Because the M is a very simple design to begin with, the baseline is already very near industrial range and extended temperature ranges of -20C to 70C. The weakness is at the component level on the low side - a frozen M works fine mechanically but fails electrically. (Can't say the same for a Cherry MX of any flavor. The switches themselves will likely fail due to metal contraction.) Swap a few components on the controller so they don't fail at low temperatures, and you've got a near everything-proof keyboard.

Yes, this is also why most modern harsh environment keyboards are rubber dome. It's more resilient to temperature swings, liquid intrusion, dust intrusion, and so on. Rubber dome doesn't care if it's -20 or +100. But neither does buckling spring.
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Offline hongdida

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Re: Rare IBM Model M keyboard with square crystal... Not really.
« Reply #17 on: Tue, 22 July 2014, 21:53:10 »
It's a safe bet that all IBM 1390120 crystal reports barcode and 1390131's made before the middle of 1986 or so will have this. I'm not sure about the industrial, but I imagine it's got it as well.

Basically, it just indicates an older model keyboard, which is usually sought after for other reasons (barcode label, older = better, thick plate, etc.)

Industrial varies, actually, it turns out. The actual proper industrial models are identifiable by their extended temperature range components. In some cases, that means the 4 pin oscillator, while in others it means an extended temperature range can crystal. As I said: there's no functional difference between the two. They're both +-100ppm or +-50ppm parts depending on controller version, though the oscillator (4 pin square) typically has a slightly wider temperature range.

The annoying thing is that I've noticed some of the oscillator controllers use the SAME part number as the controller PCBs. I don't know if that's because these PCBs support both - though I've never seen a can setup that can also accept the oscillator - or because IBM just said "screw it, let's not give it a new PN."

I also have two boards with the crystal oscillator as well, one is a 1388032 (17 DEC 1985) and the other is a 1390131 (17 APR 1986), both made in USA.  Actually, my two keyboards have the EXACT same controller boards.  Maybe back then they hadn't cheapened down the vanilla model M to the extent that they really needed to have a separate "Industrial" keyboard.[/u][/size]
Yep, a separate "Industrial" keyboard is needed. :p

Offline jdcarpe

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Re: Rare IBM Model M keyboard with square crystal... Not really.
« Reply #18 on: Tue, 22 July 2014, 22:09:39 »
You necro'd this thread for that???

:facepalm:
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Offline rowdy

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Re: Rare IBM Model M keyboard with square crystal... Not really.
« Reply #19 on: Tue, 22 July 2014, 22:45:27 »
You necro'd this thread for that???

:facepalm:

I sometimes wonder how people find these old threads :eek:
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Offline Vanilla

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Re: Rare IBM Model M keyboard with square crystal... Not really.
« Reply #20 on: Wed, 23 July 2014, 02:32:20 »
I thought there was another revelation to this... :(

Offline microsoft windows

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Re: Rare IBM Model M keyboard with square crystal... Not really.
« Reply #21 on: Wed, 23 July 2014, 11:52:01 »
I wonder if the crystal is compatible with Windows 98.
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Offline dorkvader

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Re: Rare IBM Model M keyboard with square crystal... Not really.
« Reply #22 on: Wed, 23 July 2014, 21:23:11 »
You necro'd this thread for that???

:facepalm:

The real question is why h added those links to my post.

Offline Quardah

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Re: Rare IBM Model M keyboard with square crystal... Not really.
« Reply #23 on: Fri, 25 July 2014, 08:22:19 »
I wonder if the crystal is compatible with Windows 98.

Obviously if you install the driver present on the floppy that's in the box. All you'll need is a floppy drive but eh it's 2014, if you don't have one it's time to upgrade!
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Offline microsoft windows

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Re: Rare IBM Model M keyboard with square crystal... Not really.
« Reply #24 on: Fri, 25 July 2014, 09:10:56 »
I wonder if the crystal is compatible with Windows 98.

Obviously if you install the driver present on the floppy that's in the box. All you'll need is a floppy drive but eh it's 2014, if you don't have one it's time to upgrade!

Sigh....that's what Y2k will do to ya.
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Offline dantan

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Re: Rare IBM Model M keyboard with square crystal... Not really.
« Reply #25 on: Sun, 27 July 2014, 06:59:57 »
It's a safe bet that all IBM 1390120 and 1390131's made before the middle of 1986 or so will have this. I'm not sure about the industrial, but I imagine it's got it as well.

Basically, it just indicates an older model keyboard, which is usually sought after for other reasons (barcode label, older = better, thick plate, etc.)

Industrial varies, actually, it turns out. The actual proper industrial models are identifiable by their extended temperature range components. In some cases, that means the 4 pin oscillator, while in others it means an extended temperature range can crystal. As I said: there's no functional difference between the two. They're both +-100ppm or +-50ppm parts depending on controller version, though the oscillator (4 pin square) typically has a slightly wider temperature range.

The annoying thing is that I've noticed some of the oscillator controllers use the SAME part number as the controller PCBs. I don't know if that's because these PCBs support both - though I've never seen a can setup that can also accept the oscillator - or because IBM just said "screw it, let's not give it a new PN."

I also have two boards with the crystal oscillator as well, one is a 1388032 (17 DEC 1985) and the other is a 1390131 (17 APR 1986), both made in USA.  Actually, my two keyboards have the EXACT same controller boards.  Maybe back then they hadn't cheapened down the vanilla model M to the extent that they really needed to have a separate "Industrial" keyboard.

Most examples of the Industrial I've seen have the range extended on the LOW side over the high side, as the stock / base components are more than sufficient for the high side. If you check the capacitors, the temperature rating is already on them - and it's usually 85C. That's the typical range for computer use capacitors, and far above what you'll see in even the power devouring hot running M13's. They only had to make some minor swaps to get the low side down to prevent component level hysteresis - crystals tend to lose accuracy or fail at temperatures below normal operating range.

Because the M is a very simple design to begin with, the baseline is already very near industrial range and extended temperature ranges of -20C to 70C. The weakness is at the component level on the low side - a frozen M works fine mechanically but fails electrically. (Can't say the same for a Cherry MX of any flavor. The switches themselves will likely fail due to metal contraction.) Swap a few components on the controller so they don't fail at low temperatures, and you've got a near everything-proof keyboard.

Yes, this is also why most modern harsh environment keyboards are rubber dome. It's more resilient to temperature swings, liquid intrusion, dust intrusion, and so on. Rubber dome doesn't care if it's -20 or +100. But neither does buckling spring.

I wonder if buckling springs are better in extreme cold or heat. Rubber should surely get brittle and unresponsive at cold temps and deteriorate fast at high temperatures.

Offline microsoft windows

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Re: Rare IBM Model M keyboard with square crystal... Not really.
« Reply #26 on: Sun, 27 July 2014, 08:10:00 »
It's a safe bet that all IBM 1390120 and 1390131's made before the middle of 1986 or so will have this. I'm not sure about the industrial, but I imagine it's got it as well.

Basically, it just indicates an older model keyboard, which is usually sought after for other reasons (barcode label, older = better, thick plate, etc.)

Industrial varies, actually, it turns out. The actual proper industrial models are identifiable by their extended temperature range components. In some cases, that means the 4 pin oscillator, while in others it means an extended temperature range can crystal. As I said: there's no functional difference between the two. They're both +-100ppm or +-50ppm parts depending on controller version, though the oscillator (4 pin square) typically has a slightly wider temperature range.

The annoying thing is that I've noticed some of the oscillator controllers use the SAME part number as the controller PCBs. I don't know if that's because these PCBs support both - though I've never seen a can setup that can also accept the oscillator - or because IBM just said "screw it, let's not give it a new PN."

I also have two boards with the crystal oscillator as well, one is a 1388032 (17 DEC 1985) and the other is a 1390131 (17 APR 1986), both made in USA.  Actually, my two keyboards have the EXACT same controller boards.  Maybe back then they hadn't cheapened down the vanilla model M to the extent that they really needed to have a separate "Industrial" keyboard.

Most examples of the Industrial I've seen have the range extended on the LOW side over the high side, as the stock / base components are more than sufficient for the high side. If you check the capacitors, the temperature rating is already on them - and it's usually 85C. That's the typical range for computer use capacitors, and far above what you'll see in even the power devouring hot running M13's. They only had to make some minor swaps to get the low side down to prevent component level hysteresis - crystals tend to lose accuracy or fail at temperatures below normal operating range.

Because the M is a very simple design to begin with, the baseline is already very near industrial range and extended temperature ranges of -20C to 70C. The weakness is at the component level on the low side - a frozen M works fine mechanically but fails electrically. (Can't say the same for a Cherry MX of any flavor. The switches themselves will likely fail due to metal contraction.) Swap a few components on the controller so they don't fail at low temperatures, and you've got a near everything-proof keyboard.

Yes, this is also why most modern harsh environment keyboards are rubber dome. It's more resilient to temperature swings, liquid intrusion, dust intrusion, and so on. Rubber dome doesn't care if it's -20 or +100. But neither does buckling spring.

I wonder if buckling springs are better in extreme cold or heat. Rubber should surely get brittle and unresponsive at cold temps and deteriorate fast at high temperatures.

What I wonder is how rubber dome keyboards will be in 40 or 50 years. After working on old cars, I've run into many failed rubber components that grow brittle and crack and break.
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