HHKB Pro 2 vs Leopold FC660C

[morpheus]

OK,

To owners of both, which one do you enjoy typing on more?
I know the differences are subtle, but here at GH, I think we all thrive on those subtleties.
So, tell me, what makes you prefer one over the other?

Thanks!

[eadams]

Hey there,

I owned a HHKB for a while.  As a hardcore unix developer, I can appreciate using hjkl as arrows in vi and whatnot.  I really wanted to make it work, and gave it about a month but ultimately switched away.  Using other keyboards from time to time (ie. the wife's laptop) really messed with my muscle memory and ultimately made me a worse typist.  If you are in an environment where you have complete control over the equipment you use, ie. leaving a hhkb pro 2 and work and one at home, never using a laptop keyboard, etc, you may not experience the same pains I did, but it will still take a while to get used to.

My FC660C comes in on Monday from EK and I'm looking forward to letting you know more, but from what I learned in my HHKB days, I'm okay hitting a meta for almost everything except arrows, so I suspect I'll be really happy with it.  I will probably lose some efficiency when using other boards occasionally because of muscle memory, but it won't be nearly as bas as reaching for a meta to use arrows in the extremely nonstandard way that HHKB has them laid out.

 - Eric

[mauri]

If you look very closely you'll find the hhkb is missing two keys from its both bottom corners.

[Quardah]

OK,

To owners of both, which one do you enjoy typing on more?
I know the differences are subtle, but here at GH, I think we all thrive on those subtleties.
So, tell me, what makes you prefer one over the other?

Thanks!

Get both
Try them
Keep your favorite
Send me the other one.

You will have the time to choose right and also a friend forever.

[morpheus]

OK,

To owners of both, which one do you enjoy typing on more?
I know the differences are subtle, but here at GH, I think we all thrive on those subtleties.
So, tell me, what makes you prefer one over the other?

Thanks!

Get both
Try them
Keep your favorite
Send me the other one.

You will have the time to choose right and also a friend forever.

Well, I have an FC660C which is my daily driver, but I would love to get my hands on a  White HHKB Pro 2 with legends. I think I'm gonna have to save up and get one before I send you one brotha!

[Quardah]

OK,

To owners of both, which one do you enjoy typing on more?
I know the differences are subtle, but here at GH, I think we all thrive on those subtleties.
So, tell me, what makes you prefer one over the other?

Thanks!

Get both
Try them
Keep your favorite
Send me the other one.

You will have the time to choose right and also a friend forever.

Well, I have an FC660C which is my daily driver, but I would love to get my hands on a  White HHKB Pro 2 with legends. I think I'm gonna have to save up and get one before I send you one brotha!

Lol bro don't send me stuff for free but if you're selling anything just hook me up ok?

[badcop]

If you look very closely you'll find the hhkb is missing two keys from its both bottom corners.

false

every other keyboard has two extras keys from both bottom corners.

[Quardah]

If you look very closely you'll find the hhkb is missing two keys from its both bottom corners.

false

every other keyboard has two extras keys from both bottom corners.

Optimistic, i see.

[rowdy]

My HHKB has the same number of keys in the bottom row as my Model M (excluding the extra arrow keys etc. on the Model M).

[Hypersphere]

I have recently acquired a Leopold FC660C, and I like it. However, I would like to have keycaps for it that are as handsome as those on the HHKB Pro 2, but it seems that replacement keycap sets are not available for the Leopold.

As a separate issue, for a long time I have been thinking of getting a HHKB Pro 2. Now I am sure I would like the Topre switches, but I am not sure if I would like the unusual layout on the HHKB Pro 2 and its lack of dedicated arrow keys.

To help with this dilemma, I would be interested in seeing more impressions, preferably from those who have used both the Leopold FC660C and the HHKB Pro 2.

Thanks.

[Hypersphere]

Hey there,

I owned a HHKB for a while.  As a hardcore unix developer, I can appreciate using hjkl as arrows in vi and whatnot.  I really wanted to make it work, and gave it about a month but ultimately switched away.  Using other keyboards from time to time (ie. the wife's laptop) really messed with my muscle memory and ultimately made me a worse typist.  If you are in an environment where you have complete control over the equipment you use, ie. leaving a hhkb pro 2 and work and one at home, never using a laptop keyboard, etc, you may not experience the same pains I did, but it will still take a while to get used to.

My FC660C comes in on Monday from EK and I'm looking forward to letting you know more, but from what I learned in my HHKB days, I'm okay hitting a meta for almost everything except arrows, so I suspect I'll be really happy with it.  I will probably lose some efficiency when using other boards occasionally because of muscle memory, but it won't be nearly as bas as reaching for a meta to use arrows in the extremely nonstandard way that HHKB has them laid out.

 - Eric

I am in the opposite situation. I have a Leopold FC660C and I like it, but I have always wondered about the HHKB Pro 2. After you have tried out the FC660C, it would be interesting and helpful to see your impressions of the two.

I would probably be more inclined to be content with the Leo if there were good replacement keycaps for it that looked as good as those on the white and light gray version of the HHKB Pro 2.

[o2dazone]

I've used an HHKB for about 4 years. I used the FC660C for about a month. I used both for development, but the HHKB was also used for gaming. I'm purposely ignoring any layout concerns because the buyer either 1) gets used to it, or 2) doesnt, sells it. It's not really a surprise. If you're not comfortable with learning something new, don't buy an HHKB

Here are my opinions of pros and cons, un-comparative to one another.

HHKB
+ Extremely efficient layout
+ Hands never wander too far from the home row
+ Everything is well built and fits together perfectly. No wiggle, no flex.
+ White case and blank legends available

- No metal rigidity anywhere
- The USB hubs attached are unpowered
- The traction feet are weak, the height feet are negligible
- The screw posts in the case are plastic, and prone to stripping if you disassemble your board a lot


FC660C
+ Cheaper price point
+ Heavier
+ Plate-mount Topres are highly desirable

- Can suffer from squeeky plastic on plastic rubbing with the case
- Can be a bit harder to find if they aren't in stock
- Non standard key sizes means your aftermarket keycap options are limited to non-modifiers

[jabar]

I sold my HHKB within 6 weeks of acquiring it. I only used it for maybe 2-3 weeks before changing back to Cherry.

I acquired my FC660C back May-ish. I have yet to swap it out since.

[BliTzKiN]

If your budget allows I think HHKB would be pretty awesome. I especially love the looks and layout of that keyboard. The 660C on the other hand is like almost half the price in my country. Same switch, plate mounted. Only huge differences is that it isnt as pretty, has a weirder layout and the caps are not as good quality.

[eth0s]

I've used an HHKB for about 4 years. I used the FC660C for about a month. I used both for development, but the HHKB was also used for gaming. I'm purposely ignoring any layout concerns because the buyer either 1) gets used to it, or 2) doesnt, sells it. It's not really a surprise. If you're not comfortable with learning something new, don't buy an HHKB

Here are my opinions of pros and cons, un-comparative to one another.

HHKB
+ Extremely efficient layout
+ Hands never wander too far from the home row
+ Everything is well built and fits together perfectly. No wiggle, no flex.
+ White case and blank legends available

- No metal rigidity anywhere
- The USB hubs attached are unpowered
- The traction feet are weak, the height feet are negligible
- The screw posts in the case are plastic, and prone to stripping if you disassemble your board a lot


FC660C
+ Cheaper price point
+ Heavier
+ Plate-mount Topres are highly desirable

- Can suffer from squeeky plastic on plastic rubbing with the case
- Can be a bit harder to find if they aren't in stock
- Non standard key sizes means your aftermarket keycap options are limited to non-modifiers

^ +1.  This is a good summary of the pro's and con's.  The FC660C is a great keyboard.  The HHKB Pro 2 is a little bit better.  And IMO, the Type-S with blank keycaps is the best version of the HHKB Pro 2. 

[babyface]

FC660C
+ Cheaper price point
+ Heavier
+ Plate-mount Topres are highly desirable

I thought the "case mounted" Topres of the HHKB were more desirable? As a common thought that is. I have not tried either.

[TimIsABat]

I don't own a Topre board yet (planning on a HHKB Pro 2 blank with white caps...too bad EK is out of stock till next week...hopefully my money will come in by then), but owning a FC660M...the keycaps are less than desirable. The keycaps are almost flat in design which causes a lot of mistypes (in my case with MX Reds)...and since they are 45g I would imagine it to be the same like I have with my FC660M. Switching out the keycaps with vortex pbt blank caps did help, but having different shift keys and spacebars does irk me a bit.

Can't really give too much insight, but when I get a HHKB I will let you know. From what I read on descriptions and seen on videos...it seems like this would be my board. Even read somewhere that even though it is 45g, it still feels a bit better since it is case-mounted which gives it a different feel than plate mounted 45g on a Realforce.... That is only hearsay though.

[Cafeine]

I don't own a Topre board yet (planning on a HHKB Pro 2 blank with white caps...too bad EK is out of stock till next week...hopefully my money will come in by then), but owning a FC660M...the keycaps are less than desirable. The keycaps are almost flat in design which causes a lot of mistypes (in my case with MX Reds)...and since they are 45g I would imagine it to be the same like I have with my FC660M. Switching out the keycaps with vortex pbt blank caps did help, but having different shift keys and spacebars does irk me a bit.

Can't really give too much insight, but when I get a HHKB I will let you know. From what I read on descriptions and seen on videos...it seems like this would be my board. Even read somewhere that even though it is 45g, it still feels a bit better since it is case-mounted which gives it a different feel than plate mounted 45g on a Realforce.... That is only hearsay though.

I have a RF and FC660C on my desk : same profile. Sorry.   The feeling of the FC660C is better / same than the HHKB (I owned one too) but way better than the RF 45g. A 55g is a different story. (And all that is stupidly subjective.)

[MJ45]

My HHKB Pro 2 is the first Topre keyboard I purchased and I love it. I got it about five months before the F660c became available otherwise I would have been tempted to get the Leopold instead. But I have no regrets with the HHKB, for me the layout was easy to adapt, even if I use TKL's or full boards, coming back to the HHKB is second nature. I liked Topre so much when I decided to get another I went with the Realforce 87u 55g which is also great for all purposes when I want a larger layout or gaming use with dedicated F- keys. But whenever I have typing or a lot of textual endeavors the HHKB is what I enjoy using the most. My wife all-ways comments how nice it is to use but says she needs a full size keyboard for her job using spreadsheets and a lot numeric input. She has a Ducky 9008 G2 Pro and says if fine so I don't try to change her mind.

[o2dazone]

I thought the "case mounted" Topres of the HHKB were more desirable? As a common thought that is. I have not tried either.

I was under the impression the rigidity of a plate mount was more preferred, but I'm probably wrong, I don't frequent the forums enough to know nowadays

[Hypersphere]

I thought the "case mounted" Topres of the HHKB were more desirable? As a common thought that is. I have not tried either.

I was under the impression the rigidity of a plate mount was more preferred, but I'm probably wrong, I don't frequent the forums enough to know nowadays

You have the correct operative term -- "preferred". It is a matter of preference rather than inherent superiority. Some people prefer the feel of a a switch that is not rigidly mounted to a steel plate, because of the slight flex when typing. Others might equate build quality with the weight or density that results from having a steel plate.

That said, I am persuaded that Realforce boards are of the highest build quality, although they do not have the most modern styling. On the other hand, I think that the styling of the HHKB Pro 2 is superb.

It would be great to see a new 60+% board from RF with the styling panache of the HHKB Pro 2 and the build quality of RF with their classic white and light gray dye sub PBT keycaps.

[TimIsABat]

I thought the "case mounted" Topres of the HHKB were more desirable? As a common thought that is. I have not tried either.

I was under the impression the rigidity of a plate mount was more preferred, but I'm probably wrong, I don't frequent the forums enough to know nowadays

You have the correct operative term -- "preferred". It is a matter of preference rather than inherent superiority. Some people prefer the feel of a a switch that is not rigidly mounted to a steel plate, because of the slight flex when typing. Others might equate build quality with the weight or density that results from having a steel plate.

That said, I am persuaded that Realforce boards are of the highest build quality, although they do not have the most modern styling. On the other hand, I think that the styling of the HHKB Pro 2 is superb.

It would be great to see a new 60+% board from RF with the styling panache of the HHKB Pro 2 and the build quality of RF with their classic white and light gray dye sub PBT keycaps.

Or a 55g hhkb pro 2

[daerid]

I thought the "case mounted" Topres of the HHKB were more desirable? As a common thought that is. I have not tried either.

Depends on the person. For most Topre users, they are. See here for my take: http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=42300.msg899053#msg899053

[o2dazone]

Looks like you made a more comprehensive version of my post, months ago! Good to know there can still be a healthy level headed discussion around Topre preference

[terran5992]

HHKB Is better

[rowdy]

HHKB Is better

Why?

[KangarooZombies]

I own a 660c right now and my HHKB pro 2 is in the mail.

Will report back, but this 660c is going to be hard to beat.

[rowdy]

I own a 660c right now and my HHKB pro 2 is in the mail.

Will report back, but this 660c is going to be hard to beat.

Seems to be a common theme, I'm almost regretting getting this HHKB when it was available about a week before the FC660C came out.

Almost.

Except that the FC660C is not (yet) available in white.

[Hypersphere]

The Leopold FC660C is a very good keyboard with decent quality that offers the promise of a HHKB Pro 2 alternative for those who want a standard layout and dedicated arrow keys in a 60+% form factor. However, the FC660C seems not quite finished with its isolated Insert/Delete keys and lack of dye-sublimated printing on its PBT keycaps.

Some healthy competition is needed in the high-end mini-keyboard niche. Consequently, I would like to see RealForce/Topre come out with their own 60+% board, essentially an update and refinement of the Leopold FC660C, with even better build quality as well as RF/Topre white and light gray dye-sub PBT keycaps similar to those on the RF 87u or the HHKB Pro 2.

This new RF/Topre mini-keyboard would be an opportunity to address some design issues with the Leopold, such as the possibility of adding two additional keys above the right-arrow key for a total of four keys in addition to the arrow cluster. These extra four keys might be programmable or changeable via DIP switch settings. For example, some people might prefer these extra keys to be Home, PgUp, PgDn, End; others might want to have one of them be the Fn key, etc. Minor quality control problems such as the case-flex issue could also be addressed.

The new product would be like a second-generation FC660C as well as a HHKB Pro 2 alternative. It would have the build quality and reliability of RealForce, a mini-keyboard (60+%) format, standard layout in the main typing area (except for a 2.25x right-shift), a fleshed-out navigation key set, plate-mounted Topre switches, and first-rate keycaps.

[TimIsABat]

The Leopold FC660C is a very good keyboard with decent quality that offers the promise of a HHKB Pro 2 alternative for those who want a standard layout and dedicated arrow keys in a 60+% form factor. However, the FC660C seems not quite finished with its isolated Insert/Delete keys and lack of dye-sublimated printing on its PBT keycaps.

Some healthy competition is needed in the high-end mini-keyboard niche. Consequently, I would like to see RealForce/Topre come out with their own 60+% board, essentially an update and refinement of the Leopold FC660C, with even better build quality as well as RF/Topre white and light gray dye-sub PBT keycaps similar to those on the RF 87u or the HHKB Pro 2.

This new RF/Topre mini-keyboard would be an opportunity to address some design issues with the Leopold, such as the possibility of adding two additional keys above the right-arrow key for a total of four keys in addition to the arrow cluster. These extra four keys might be programmable or changeable via DIP switch settings. For example, some people might prefer these extra keys to be Home, PgUp, PgDn, End; others might want to have one of them be the Fn key, etc. Minor quality control problems such as the case-flex issue could also be addressed.

The new product would be like a second-generation FC660C as well as a HHKB Pro 2 alternative. It would have the build quality and reliability of RealForce, a mini-keyboard (60+%) format, standard layout in the main typing area (except for a 2.25x right-shift), a fleshed-out navigation key set, plate-mounted Topre switches, and first-rate keycaps.

If they ever do release a 60% RF board, it better have a price that would knock the HHKB out of competition. They would skyrocket in sales considering that RF is considered by many as one of the highest quality of Topre boards out there. Seriously, if they made it close to 200 or less then I would hop on so fast...Oh and it would be an amazing plus is it looked equally as sleek as the HHKB Pro 2

[jabar]

Case mounted flexes just like a PCB mounted MX switch. Its only advantage is portability.

The FC660C is sturdy like a tank.

[Hypersphere]

Case mounted flexes just like a PCB mounted MX switch. Its only advantage is portability.

The FC660C is sturdy like a tank.

I have both, the FC660C and the FC660M. Although I prefer the Topre switches in the FC660C, my particular unit suffers from the "case flex" problem that has been reported by others. In contrast, the case on the FC660M does not flex at all.

This relatively minor problem notwithstanding, I like the FC660C. It might become my favorite board if it came with keycaps like those on the white and gray RF 87U, or the white and light gray HHKB Pro 2. As it stands, the FC660C will remain secondary to my IBM SSK, which is built like a nuclear submarine.

[jabar]

when I mean flexes, I mean PCB/case bending with keypresses, not the documented squeeze-flex problem with some FC660Cs which should be RMA'd.

[Hypersphere]

...
If they ever do release a 60% RF board, it better have a price that would knock the HHKB out of competition. They would skyrocket in sales considering that RF is considered by many as one of the highest quality of Topre boards out there. Seriously, if they made it close to 200 or less then I would hop on so fast...Oh and it would be an amazing plus is it looked equally as sleek as the HHKB Pro 2

We are definitely on the same wavelength! I agree that such a keyboard would sell like the proverbial hotcakes. I hope that Realforce is listening.

[TimIsABat]

I don't remember or seeing this when I was reviewing the posts, but how does the actual switch feel on the keyboards. Is the tactile feedback more pronounced on the HHKB versus the FC660C or vice versa? Does it feel more solid of a bottom out on one than the other? I would think they would feel different because of the case-mounting versus the plate-mounting, but I want to know what you guys think.

[Cafeine]

I don't remember or seeing this when I was reviewing the posts, but how does the actual switch feel on the keyboards. Is the tactile feedback more pronounced on the HHKB versus the FC660C or vice versa? Does it feel more solid of a bottom out on one than the other? I would think they would feel different because of the case-mounting versus the plate-mounting, but I want to know what you guys think.

I find the "thock" of the 660C perfect. The HHKB is in the same league but not EXACTLY the same feeling. I think the feedback is a tad better on the 660 but it's SO personnal. I rank my RF 45g last (of the bests ).

[MJ45]

The HHKB Pro 2 has the most "Thock" of the Topres, noted in many threads by users who have tried them all.

[ch_123]

I am actually quite fond of the arrow key arrangement on the HHKB as it does not require your right hand to move too far away from the home row, but it seems to put a lot of people off the HHKB.

[Hypersphere]

I am actually quite fond of the arrow key arrangement on the HHKB as it does not require your right hand to move too far away from the home row, but it seems to put a lot of people off the HHKB.

To my eye, the HHKB Pro 2 is the most elegant-looking keyboard commercially available (apart from some of the high-end custom-built keyboards). Nevertheless, I use arrow keys so frequently that I prefer to have them in the primary layer. On the other hand, I don't miss the Function-key row at all, and on the relatively rare occasions when I need a Function key, I don't mind using Fn+number key to get there. So, between the PFU HHKB Pro 2 and the Leopold FC660C, I would choose the Leopold.

However, I think I might prefer 55-gram Topres over 45-gram, and I know I want dye-sub PBT keycaps like those on the white/gray models of the HHKB Pro 2 or RF 87U. Therefore, although I prefer a 60+% form factor over a TKL, I would probably opt for a white/gray RF 87U with uniformly weighted 55-gram Topres.

[TimIsABat]

I don't remember or seeing this when I was reviewing the posts, but how does the actual switch feel on the keyboards. Is the tactile feedback more pronounced on the HHKB versus the FC660C or vice versa? Does it feel more solid of a bottom out on one than the other? I would think they would feel different because of the case-mounting versus the plate-mounting, but I want to know what you guys think.

I find the "thock" of the 660C perfect. The HHKB is in the same league but not EXACTLY the same feeling. I think the feedback is a tad better on the 660 but it's SO personnal. I rank my RF 45g last (of the bests ).

The HHKB Pro 2 has the most "Thock" of the Topres, noted in many threads by users who have tried them all.

Is the tactility any different? I actually find myself liking the thok of the HHKB sometimes and thock of the 660c some other times from videos that I watch.

[Krigo]

If they ever do release a 60% RF board, it better have a price that would knock the HHKB out of competition. They would skyrocket in sales considering that RF is considered by many as one of the highest quality of Topre boards out there. Seriously, if they made it close to 200 or less then I would hop on so fast...Oh and it would be an amazing plus is it looked equally as sleek as the HHKB Pro 2

A 60% Topre board with a Poker 2 layout (including the layout of its FN layer) would probably be my favorite board, ever.

[Hypersphere]

If they ever do release a 60% RF board, it better have a price that would knock the HHKB out of competition. They would skyrocket in sales considering that RF is considered by many as one of the highest quality of Topre boards out there. Seriously, if they made it close to 200 or less then I would hop on so fast...Oh and it would be an amazing plus is it looked equally as sleek as the HHKB Pro 2

A 60% Topre board with a Poker 2 layout (including the layout of its FN layer) would probably be my favorite board, ever.

Yes, this would be great. I think I might even adjust to having the arrow keys in the Fn layer because the rest of the board would be a completely standard layout.

[Hypersphere]

Well, I finally could stand the suspense no longer and I bought a HHKB Pro 2. I like it much better than my Leopold FC660C. Here is a link to my review:

http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=48804.0

I was surprised how quickly I adapted to the layout, including the absence of dedicated arrow keys. This is my third day of using the HHKB Pro 2, and I believe it is going to displace not only my Leopold FC660C, but possibly even my IBM SSK. However, I still consider the IBM SSK the best all-around keyboard (it falls short only with respect to portability); consequently, I envision switching back and forth between the SSK and the HHKB Pro 2.

[rowdy]

Well, I finally could stand the suspense no longer and I bought a HHKB Pro 2. I like it much better than my Leopold FC660C. Here is a link to my review:

http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=48804.0

I was surprised how quickly I adapted to the layout, including the absence of dedicated arrow keys. This is my third day of using the HHKB Pro 2, and I believe it is going to displace not only my Leopold FC660C, but possibly even my IBM SSK. However, I still consider the IBM SSK the best all-around keyboard (it falls short only with respect to portability); consequently, I envision switching back and forth between the SSK and the HHKB Pro 2.

Haha sort of coincidence - at home I alternate between HHKB and Model M.

[Hypersphere]

Well, I finally could stand the suspense no longer and I bought a HHKB Pro 2. I like it much better than my Leopold FC660C. Here is a link to my review:

http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=48804.0

I was surprised how quickly I adapted to the layout, including the absence of dedicated arrow keys. This is my third day of using the HHKB Pro 2, and I believe it is going to displace not only my Leopold FC660C, but possibly even my IBM SSK. However, I still consider the IBM SSK the best all-around keyboard (it falls short only with respect to portability); consequently, I envision switching back and forth between the SSK and the HHKB Pro 2.

Haha sort of coincidence - at home I alternate between HHKB and Model M.

Coincidence? I wonder. Perhaps there is a GH collective consciousness.