Extra, smaller keys stuck in-between normal keys - what do you think?

[Piotr Dobrogost]

Hi!

I recently took a look at available ergonomic keyboards and also bought TypeMatrix and Truly Ergonomic keyboards. However I can't say I'm satisfied with them or that I could be satisfied with any of available keyboards for that matter. The reason I don't like current offerings is that many keys are not easily reachable. What bothers me the most is that modifier keys are placed in such positions that it's impossible to press combos like Ctrl+Alt and Ctrl+Alt+Shift or Fn key without moving fingers from home positions. That's why I came up with the idea of placing additional, thin keys in-between normal keys so that they could be easily available. For example I would place Alts above index fingers' home positions, Ctrls above middle fingers' home positions and Shifts above ring fingers' home positions. Fn1 would be on the right of the left index finger's home position and Fn2 would be on the left of the right index finger's home position. Additionally even more such keys could be added in suitable positions; below home positions of index, middle and ring fingers for instance.

What do you think?

[tbc]

what are your use cases for pressing those combos so often?

[Piotr Dobrogost]

Well, it's not like I use only these combos and to be clear - I omitted additional letters that go with them for brevity. I use Eclipse and PyCharm a lot and there are tons of different keyboard shortcuts there.  Actually there are many shortcuts in every program I know so if anyone wants to make good use of keyboard various combos are to be typed over and over again.

[Daniel Beardsmore]

What's the narrowest you'd want to make the strip of steel between two switches? Reduce it from around 4 mm, to 2 mm? That would yield you a unit size of 17 mm, with Cherry MX switches. For PCB mount, you could have the switches touching, like keyboards of yore, giving you a unit size of around 15.6 mm (width of one MX switch).

Any smaller, and you'd be putting in little pushbutton microswitches and it would be fun getting them to behave like MX switches.

[dorkvader]

I imagine you could make (or perhaps buy?) a long lever microswitch to mount vertically between the keys. You could have it under the PCB and sort of nudge it to the side to actuate the "new" switch. I thought about this a while ago, and decided it was well suited for mouse buttons for people with pointing sticks in their keyboards, but I think it would work for you as well. You could use it for a modifier without too much trouble

Another idea is to use home row "dual role" modifier keys for the homerow or elsewhere. Not a perfect solution, but it's worth considering, I imagine. TMK_firmware supports this, I think.

[Piotr Dobrogost]

I imagine you could make (or perhaps buy?) a long lever microswitch to mount vertically between the keys.

Nice idea; I guess you have in mind something very much like vertical keys in DataHand. I'm afraid it could be easier to actuate these by accident when moving fingers to upper row than "normal" keys pressed vertically.

Another idea is to use home row "dual role" modifier keys for the homerow or elsewhere.

I thought of this as well but never heard about "dual role" keys. Do you know where I could find more info on this?

[Oobly]

Thumb buttons are great for modifiers and if you position them correctly you can use up to four at the same time (two with each thumb) without moving your fingers from the home row.

This sounds like an interesting idea, though. I may find it hard not to actuate them by accident, though, when reaching for upper row keys.

"Dual role" keys do one action when pressed and released and another when held down, like using the spacebar as shift as well. Downside is that the keycode only gets sent on release for that key.

[Piotr Dobrogost]

What's the narrowest you'd want to make the strip of steel between two switches? Reduce it from around 4 mm, to 2 mm? That would yield you a unit size of 17 mm, with Cherry MX switches. For PCB mount, you could have the switches touching, like keyboards of yore, giving you a unit size of around 15.6 mm (width of one MX switch).

Any smaller, and you'd be putting in little pushbutton microswitches and it would be fun getting them to behave like MX switches.

Actually I was thinking of using micro switches for this as I imagine these keys would be about 2-4mm wide. As you noticed they would have totally different characteristics of actuation (from what I've seen the travel distance is as low as .25mm). I guess micro switches are meant to be pushed through some kind of spring mechanism making travel distance much longer. Maybe there are micro versions of MX switches?

[Oobly]

Microswitches often have metal levers attached to give a longer action. Something like this: http://www.adafruit.com/products/818

[Piotr Dobrogost]

Thumb buttons are great for modifiers and if you position them correctly you can use up to four at the same time (two with each thumb) without moving your fingers from the home row.

Well, 99,99% of software does not support pressing more than three standard modifiers (not counting one extra key pressed at the same time) so the ability to press four modifier keys at the same time is purely theoretical I guess. Btw, how comfortable is it to press two buttons at the same time with a thumb? If you were to place modifiers under thumbs you would have to have at least the following keys (where A|B means a pair of keys positioned so that they could be pressed with one thumb at the same time or A key alone <<I suspect pressing B alone wouldn't be comfortable with this setup>>); Alt|Ctrl under one thumb and Ctrl|Shift, and Shift under other thumb. This gives us 5 keys total what takes precious space under thumbs away from other keys...

[Oobly]

I have testing thumb cluster layouts and have come up with a nice combination for my own thumbs. Reverse the keycap on the "front" key of each pair so the thumb rests nicely on both (I am using lower row caps). This way you can press either one by rocking the thumb forward and back and you can press both together easily.

Left thumb: front button = Shift, back button = AltGr
right thumb: front button = Space, back button = Enter

Then I have another pair of keys for each thumb next to the first (more outwards):

Left thumb: front  = backspace, back = Tab
Right thumb: front = Alt, back = Ctrl

So you can press any combination of Ctrl, Alt, Shift and AltGr.

I placed them like this so the most used keys are front inside buttons (shift and space). Modifers together (AltGr and Shift, Ctrl and Alt). And other most used "little finger" keys on other buttons (backspace, enter, tab).

Of course this requires a complete keyboard design... I am working on it Using a Teensy 2.0 so I can code my own firmware, no modifier limitations, etc. Currently testing thumb cluster placement and angle. I may start a thread

[Piotr Dobrogost]

I have testing thumb cluster layouts and have come up with a nice combination for my own thumbs. (...)

I have hard time tying to image how it looks. Could you post some picture or create at least ASCII art showing your layout of thumb clusters?

[Oobly]

I have testing thumb cluster layouts and have come up with a nice combination for my own thumbs. (...)

I have hard time tying to image how it looks. Could you post some picture or create at least ASCII art showing your layout of thumb clusters?

I posted pics today in this thread: http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=48176.msg1048642#msg1048642

The left cluster shown has Shift and AltGr on the keys closer to the main plate, Backspace and Tab on the further two. Right side is a mirror image with Space and Enter on the closer keys, Ctrl and Alt on the further ones.

[Piotr Dobrogost]

Some pictures of work in progress.
I have hard time finding any buttons that would go on top of micro switches. If you have any idea please let me know.

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These buttons look nice (available at http://www.aliexpress.com/store/product/have-stock-metal-ABXY-buttons-for-xbox360-slim-replace-key-wireless-controller-shell-for-XBOX360-white/505192_1284529151.html)

[xmagusx]

It looks more than a bit awkward. I'm inclined to agree with the idea that thumb clusters may be a better solution.

Alternately, I was wondering if you had considered a foot pedal, as even a three or four button model could completely remove the modifier burden from your hands entirely.