Vintage Blacks are a placebo, prove me wrong.

[SpAmRaY]

So maybe we can analyze the people and the plastics!!!!

[CPTBadAss]

I think this is the start of something awesome. DrinkTea, I'm game for your statistical experiment if you are. It'd be a cool compliment to the analysis I hope to setup soon. Let me know what you're thinking here or in PMs .

[DrinkTea]

Didn't realize that's what you wanted to run. Thought you just wanted to offer people the chance to try out "vintage" Blacks vs "modern" Blacks. I'm still doing my experiment if the person is willing to help. If you want to run your tour/experiment, that'd be interesting and I'd like to take part .

Don't really know that much about placebo testing off the top of my head, maybe you can fill me in?

Basically, the simplest way to do is it kind of like a double blind clinical trial. Say we have two switches, vintage and not. Someone makes two keyboards that are uniquely identified in some way, but that doesn't give away what kind of switch it has.
Then, each person reports which keyboard felt smoother. If no one can tell a difference, we would expect people to basically guess and have a 50% chance of correctly identifying the vintages. Using the data we collect, we can see if the "people are just guessing" hypothesis is plausible.

There are more complicated variations that let us look at more things, but this is a start.

[Photoelectric]

You can't make a typing test for those, because how are you going to compare them against modern Blacks that are very well worn-in and also have lost most or all of their noticeable friction?  I thought the point was that vintage Blacks STARTED OUT being smoother than modern.  You need to compare unused vintage MX Blacks against unused modern MX Blacks, preferably from a few different batches.

[esoomenona]

Also, there has to be removed any identifying marks. Logos, larger smaller, and anything else, so people don't try popping caps and comparing. Maybe even super glue the caps onto the stems.

[SpAmRaY]

Maybe even super glue the caps onto the stems.

^^ I was thinking this.

OR setup a double blind study with random people off the street maybe we could get CM to sponsor to get the word out about mechnicals.

[DrinkTea]

Maybe even super glue the caps onto the stems.

^^ I was thinking this.

OR setup a double blind study with random people off the street maybe we could get CM to sponsor to get the word out about mechnicals.

Yes, you would need a way to prevent people from checking, but it seems doable. And actually that sponsored trial idea sounds cool. CM seems pretty down with working with enthusiasts.

And regarding picking keyboards. There are ways to compare with more than two categories. It's a little more involved, but completely doable.

[JPG]

The real problem with this is that we would need NEW vintage blacks and be able to compare them with NEW blacks. Also, it would be even more nice to have a batch of both with original spring and then another batch of both modded with the same new spring. This way, we could more easily discard the wear factor of the switch itself since there is a very possible chance that people could prefer vintage blacks for the simple reason that either the spring is different OR the switch has been used a lot and feels smoother simply because it has been used a lot.

So I would much prefer a test analysis, but this blind test could be fun anyway even if I doubt we could get an accurate conclusion because of the reasons mentioned above.

[DrinkTea]

The real problem with this is that we would need NEW vintage blacks and be able to compare them with NEW blacks. Also, it would be even more nice to have a batch of both with original spring and then another batch of both modded with the same new spring. This way, we could more easily discard the wear factor of the switch itself since there is a very possible chance that people could prefer vintage blacks for the simple reason that either the spring is different OR the switch has been used a lot and feels smoother simply because it has been used a lot.

So I would much prefer a test analysis, but this blind test could be fun anyway even if I doubt we could get an accurate conclusion because of the reasons mentioned above.

You could take vintage blacks and regular blacks and swap the springs if you want to see if that's a contributing factor.
However, we can use the power of statistics to get more accurate results!
One is that there are ways to control for these confounders. Another is that we can use more than two keyboards. What we really care about is the AVERAGE difference between vintage and regular blacks. Any two keyboards could be highly variable. But if we have enough people typing on enough keyboards, we can get a sense of the group differences. It doesn't even have to be the same people typing on each set of keyboards.

[Photoelectric]

I don't know why springs are brought up--they do nothing to change the smooth or scratchy feeling.  I've tested my vintage Blacks from 2 batches with different springs--they feel the same just lighter or heavier.

[esoomenona]

I don't know why springs are brought up--they do nothing to change the smooth or scratchy feeling.  I've tested my vintage Blacks from 2 batches with different springs--they feel the same just lighter or heavier.

To eliminate as many variances as possible.

[Photoelectric]

Have vintage Black springs been compared to modern Black springs?  I thought they are slightly lighter than modern just because of extra wear.  If you compare unused vintage Black switches to unused modern Black switches, the spring feel will probably be ~the same to keep up with Cherry's force diagram for MX Black (unless that's been modified over time).  But sure, for consistency's sake, could go with all modern springs.

[CPTBadAss]

From what I've read, some people think that its the spring itself that causes the different feel in vintage blacks. That's why I'm interested in them since I believe it's another variable like moose said. I think all of these are a factor when comparing the two switches:

- Housing tops
- Housing bottom
- Spring
- Stem

[Hyde]

Just out of curiosity, are vintage blacks and modern blacks identical in design?  Is it only the material used is different?

Say for example if I pop one of them open would the stem look identical?

[esoomenona]

Just out of curiosity, are vintage blacks and modern blacks identical in design?  Is it only the material used is different?

Say for example if I pop one of them open would the stem look identical?

For the most part, yes. Any piece can be swapped with another and work just fine. The debate is only whether they provide any different feel.

[IvanIvanovich]

While it is entirely possible (and I think likely) that plastic formula was changed due to environmental laws, costs or many other factors may have effect on friction. Vintage switch pieces feel different to my fingers when handling them. They seem more slippery, especially the stems which feel a lot more like ptfe than the newer ones. Pieces made in the first X period of a molds existence may be smoother from less imperfections (which I think leads to the scratchiness)  that are picked up over time over the molds life span / cleaning frequency between batch runs. Older springs may have been made out of different material/alloy ratio as I notice they seem to look more 'brassy' which may have different compression than now due to costs or other factors. Older springs do seem to have a few less turns in them too. While I still maintain that there are differences in how they feel, to many the differences will be very subtle at best. Much of it depends on how sensitive a person is to picking up small details and how familiar they are with a particular switch to start with. Same can be said of vintage blues which have the same set of so far unprovable difference factors.

I can tell personally difference quite easily on new condition keyboards in my collection made in 1980's vs 2000's quite easily. Some of the used ones are a lot harder as how much they were used and the conditions they were stored in can have a considerable effect. A couple of my really old ones with blacks made in mid 80's I could probably mistake from reds if put in front of me blind folded... while some others don't really feel too good as they were stored poorly and the switches have dirt and such inside making them feel rough and gritty.

[eth0s]

Well, I performed a scientific experiment on myself, and I preferred vintage "used" blacks to modern "new" blacks.  I didn't tell myself which one I preferred until after the test was completed.  So my results are pretty definitive:  vintage blacks are definitely better, and there is no placebo effect.  My sample set preferred the vintage blacks over the new blacks 100% of the time.  That is stated with a confidence level of 99% (which is the highest confidence interval you can get in statistics).

[Photoelectric]

Well, I performed a scientific experiment on myself, and I preferred vintage "used" blacks to modern "new" blacks.  I didn't tell myself which one I preferred until after the test was completed.  So my results are pretty definitive:  vintage blacks are definitely better, and there is no placebo effect.  My sample set preferred the vintage blacks over the new blacks 100% of the time.  That is stated with a confidence level of 99% (which is the highest confidence interval you can get in statistics).

It may be in our heads, but the feels speak for themselves

[tp4tissue]

The real problem with this is that we would need NEW vintage blacks and be able to compare them with NEW blacks. Also, it would be even more nice to have a batch of both with original spring and then another batch of both modded with the same new spring. This way, we could more easily discard the wear factor of the switch itself since there is a very possible chance that people could prefer vintage blacks for the simple reason that either the spring is different OR the switch has been used a lot and feels smoother simply because it has been used a lot.

So I would much prefer a test analysis, but this blind test could be fun anyway even if I doubt we could get an accurate conclusion because of the reasons mentioned above.

You could take vintage blacks and regular blacks and swap the springs if you want to see if that's a contributing factor.
However, we can use the power of statistics to get more accurate results!
One is that there are ways to control for these confounders. Another is that we can use more than two keyboards. What we really care about is the AVERAGE difference between vintage and regular blacks. Any two keyboards could be highly variable. But if we have enough people typing on enough keyboards, we can get a sense of the group differences. It doesn't even have to be the same people typing on each set of keyboards.

Drinktea... We already know that they "could" feel "VERY" different..   There is no doubt that "SOME" vintage black switches do feel smoother...

In my tests..

100% of the time..

If I pull a stem from an already "very smooth" switch, and put it into the housing of a "very scratchy" switch.. (both vintage blacks)... The result is a "scratchy feel"..

Conversely,  If I pull a stem from a "very scratchy" switch, and put it into the housing of a "very smooth" switch.. (both vintage blacks)... The result is a "smooth feel"..


I also put the stems from smooth switches into heavily used switch key housing on my ergodox..

The result is ,

Smooth feel in the heavily used keys.. e, a ,s ,t etc,.

Scratchy in the lesser used keys like layer toggle, capslock certain punctuations, and function keys, prt scrn..

To go further... we would need some sort of machine to sort things out with accurate smoothness measures..  AND a way to get a relatively-reliable manufacture date on the switches..

The measuring machine is required because the differences between "springs" / stems/ are too minute..

[Photoelectric]

I've had a different experience from you, tp4.  I've found that housing doesn't make much of a difference--at least the bottom housing (unsure about top).  Stems are what creates the scratchy feeling on the switches I've tested.  Transparent switch tops (not produced by Cherry) are a tad tighter around the stems and increase friction, but I don't think regular Cherry tops have this issue.  In other words, I can put a stem into vintage Black housing bottom with a spring, and depending on which stem I place, the switch ends up either smooth or with noticeable friction.

For reference,  I've done a lot of stem swapping and switch swapping.  Like my LZ-GH currently has smooth vintage Blacks, stock Clears (new), and ergo-Clears in vintage Black housings, all mixed, because I'm still undecided what I'll end up using >.>  (Oh yes, also 3 Jailhouse Blue switches).

[cgbuen]

It's always a weird feeling to agree with tp, but for several months, I myself have thought it was the bottom housing all along too: http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=37987.msg765987#msg765987

My thought has been that it's not necessarily (just) the side rails of the housing, but the tension of the gold contacts against the stem legs - maybe by design, or maybe by wear.

[noisyturtle]

Vintage any MX switch is hipster placebo bull**** imo. If anything they're worse because they've been used a lot, thus reducing the lifetime actuation's.

[Photoelectric]

It's always a weird feeling to agree with tp, but for several months, I myself have thought it was the bottom housing all along too: http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=37987.msg765987#msg765987

My thought has been that it's not necessarily (just) the side rails of the housing, but the tension of the gold contacts against the stem legs - maybe by design, or maybe by wear.

I've tested it not to be the case, at least with my switches.  I have 2 batches of vintage Blacks.  The stems make the difference, not the housings.

[esoomenona]

Differing opinions on what makes them smoove? D: Nooo...

[tp4tissue]

It's always a weird feeling to agree with tp, but for several months, I myself have thought it was the bottom housing all along too: http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=37987.msg765987#msg765987

My thought has been that it's not necessarily (just) the side rails of the housing, but the tension of the gold contacts against the stem legs - maybe by design, or maybe by wear.

I've tested it not to be the case, at least with my switches.  I have 2 batches of vintage Blacks.  The stems make the difference, not the housings.

How large of a sample did you test....  I know you had 2 batches.... but how many did you actually swap..

I sorted 110 switches

25% very smooth 35% very scratchy...  the rest were in-between-ers.

I took ALL of the smooth switch stems out and put them in the scratchy switch housings.

ALL of them resulted in scratchy


I find it terribly unlikely that with this much consistency in my experiment, that there could be a contrary-view...


Did you sort your switches out to represent the more polar "extremes"  of scratchy vs smooth....  (if I had done my experiment with the (in-between-er) switches... I really wouldn't be able to tell if the result was better or worse in terms of smooth/scratchy...


It's not that I do not believe you... It's just that if what you said is true... it means I'm crazy... and/or I have broken vibration sensors at my finger tips.

[davkol]

FWIW I have a Cherry G80-1000HAD/14. Nothing extraordinary, except... As I've mentioned elsewhere, switches have *new* style logos, unless I'm blind, although keyboard's date code is A29; and they feel extremely smooth, almost like filled with some fluid (I suck at analogies)—consistently on all switches and note that nearly all keycaps are in mint condition.

For comparison, I own a NIB 2004 G80-11900 and a heavily used 2006 G80-1851. Switches on the latter are a bit lighter, but both boards are much scratchier than the vintage one.

[Photoelectric]

I've not had any "scratchy" housings.  I've used about 200 vintage Black switches.  ~120 from various used WYSE terminal boards and 87 from my LZ-GH that come from a different source (unknown).  The vintage Blacks in LZ-GH were "scratchy".  I took them apart, cleaned the stems and housing tops completely, and cleaned the bottoms as much as possible with alcohol + swabs--still scratchy.  Out of my 120-switch vintage Blacks from WYSE boards, most are very smooth, maybe 30% have some noticeable friction, though not much.   I used the smoothest stems from my WYSE batch in the LZ-GH (using them right now)--very smooth, despite the bottom housing + tops being the same.  So in my case, it's the stems that make the difference.

[DrinkTea]

I think you guys are missing the point... anecdote and hearsay don't show anything. There are some things that you can test easier than others, but as long as you specify the question clearly, we can test it properly.

[Photoelectric]

Most people talking in this thread are not sharing hearsay and anecdotes--we're sharing our experiences, albeit limited.

[DrinkTea]

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/anecdote
OK, so I guess "personal anecdote" is more accurate and hearsay isn't correct if it's personal experiences.
But I guess my point was that it drives me bonkers when people debate something that can actually be quantified and answered.
I'm happy to help with experimental design and analysis. The important thing is science!

[Photoelectric]

I guess I was just trying to say, as someone who is a scientist by profession, that your assessment was a bit off to say that we're just speculating with no evidence whatsoever    But while we don't have any definitive composition and surface imaging tests, we can still speculate about our experiences and simplified tests.  That's science too.

[tp4tissue]

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/anecdote
OK, so I guess "personal anecdote" is more accurate and hearsay isn't correct if it's personal experiences.
But I guess my point was that it drives me bonkers when people debate something that can actually be quantified and answered.
I'm happy to help with experimental design and analysis. The important thing is science!

I did quantify it.. 

http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=50149.0

[WhiteFireDragon]

I tested this "vintage black vs modern black" a while ago, and here's what I found. First off, for those that test a switch or two and make the claim that one is smoother than the other, is bogus. Not only do you need to test very large sample sizes, but you need to be sensitive enough to differentiate between scratchy and smooth.

I had 300 vintage blacks and 400 modern blacks, tested each one individually, and separated each type into 4 different boxes: extremely smooth, smooth, average, and scratchy. The vintage blacks had a higher percentage of smooth switch than modern switches (also implying that the modern blacks had a higher percentage of average and scratchy switches than vintage blacks). You can conclude that you'll have a higher chance of getting smooth switches if you use vintage blacks, but this doesn't guarantee that every vintage black switch you use will be smoother than every modern black switch. I had a pile of smooth modern blacks, likewise I also had a pile of scratchy vintage blacks.

My personal keyboard uses both vintage blacks and modern blacks, but only the smooth ones. The extremely smooth switches went into the home keys (A,S,D,F) and most common letters (E,T,O,I,etc) according to HERE.

ive tried new and old switches and i truthfully feel no difference. no linear switch has felt scratchy at all.

I can say with 100% confidence that there are clear differences between the smoothest ones and scratchy ones. It's no placebo. If you can't feel the difference, then simply your fingers are not sensitive to these things, so this whole topic is irrelevant to people that are less sensitive.


PS - moose and Dubsgalore, just get a room and go have sex already.

[Photoelectric]

Thank you for sharing, WFD (and welcome back, again!).  This confirms other reports, including mine.  Now we just need to learn whether vintage MX Blacks start out smoother on average due to different plastic or what not, or if they just have a higher probability of being smoother due to being mostly used (and thus, smoothed out via mechanical friction over time).  According to IvanIvanovich, the former could be true.

Update: some more recent evidence in favor of BIN vintage Blacks being smoother:
http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=52458.msg1165081#msg1165081