Mouse Guide: Mice with superior sensors, an overview and detailed description.

[Grim Fandango]

This topic has been moved here:

http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=56240.0

I had initially not reserved enough replies, and the guide outgrew the max nr of characters allowed for two posts.

[Grim Fandango]

This topic has been moved here:

http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=56240.0

[vun]

Nice, once you get this finished it'll be the perfect supplement to my thread, since I only really care if a mouse is big, small, heavy, light, rather than exact measurements.
I was going to add most of this to my thread eventually, but never got around to it. Looks like I won't have to now.

If there's any info I can help with, just ask.

[Elrick]

Cooler Master Storm Spawn
Sensor: Avago ADNS 3090.
Some firmware issues that impacted performance, not sure what has been addressed and fixed, and what has not. Will update soon.

That surprised me because the CM Storm Spawn is quite old released around early 2011.  Not bad that something that old can still kick butt  .

Thank you for going into detail here about the MOST important feature of these input devices - their sensors.

[Coreda]

Info I found helpful on my search for a new mouse without prediction and other issues:

- God-tier mouse guide graphic (esreality.com)

- Detailed gaming mice dimensions graphic (esreality.com)

- Guide to optimal mouse sensitivity + other detailed tips (overclock.net)

- Mouse testing software (overclock.net)

As well as countless threads on both ESR and OCN.

[Elrick]

Info I found helpful on my search for a new mouse without prediction and other issues:

- God-tier mouse guide graphic (esreality.com)

- Detailed gaming mice dimensions graphic (esreality.com)

- Guide to optimal mouse sensitivity + other detailed tips (overclock.net)

- Mouse testing software (overclock.net)

As well as countless threads on both ESR and OCN.

Oh DDDaaammmnnnnn, thank you very much  .  This all goes into my bookmarks section..... Firefox owes you big time for this  .

[Grim Fandango]

Info I found helpful on my search for a new mouse without prediction and other issues:

- God-tier mouse guide graphic (esreality.com)

- Detailed gaming mice dimensions graphic (esreality.com)

- Guide to optimal mouse sensitivity + other detailed tips (overclock.net)

- Mouse testing software (overclock.net)

As well as countless threads on both ESR and OCN.

Great links. Would you mind if I put some of them in the OP at some point? I plan to add some links that go into specific things in more detail than I will.

I should note however that the mouse graphic, or "god-tier mouse guide graphic" is a little dated and not comprehensive (it is from 2012). I also think that the category names are not entirely fair without going into detail about shortcomings some mice might have. It is good to have a peek at it, but it should not be used as a guide when choosing a mouse. There are more recent versions of that graphic floating about on the internet.

[Coreda]

Great links. Would you mind if I put some of them in the OP at some point? I plan to add some links that go into specific things in more detail than I will.

Sure, go ahead. Could help others searching 

I should note however that the mouse graphic, or "god-tier mouse guide graphic" is a little dated and not comprehensive (it is from 2012). I also think that the category names are not entirely fair without going into detail about shortcomings some mice might have. It is good to have a peek at it, but it should not be used as a guide when choosing a mouse. There are more recent versions of that graphic floating about on the internet.

As for the mouse graphic, yea, it is a little dated yet surprisingly I still found it a fairly decent and accurate starting point. The more comprehensive lists like those in the OP will be useful for the finer details 

[Grim Fandango]

Nice, once you get this finished it'll be the perfect supplement to my thread, since I only really care if a mouse is big, small, heavy, light, rather than exact measurements.
I was going to add most of this to my thread eventually, but never got around to it. Looks like I won't have to now.

If there's any info I can help with, just ask.

Thank you. My intention was to make a different kind of mouse-thread from yours. Unfortunately, I have not have tried all these mice and can not give a detailed description of my experience with them, which is what you do in your thread. Instead, this is just a compilation of information that is available and verified. I might ask you a thing or two. And of course, if there is something that you think that should be added or is incorrect, please let me know.

[fuzzybaffy]

Can I submit suggestions? AFAIK, the Roccat Kone Pure Optical has an acceleration-free optical sensor. Not sure about all the other qualities, such as jitter/angle-snapping, though.

[Grim Fandango]

Can I submit suggestions? AFAIK, the Roccat Kone Pure Optical has an acceleration-free optical sensor. Not sure about all the other qualities, such as jitter/angle-snapping, though.

Thank you. The Kone pure and Savu are on the list to be added!

[fuzzybaffy]

^ Wait! Be careful, though, because the Kone Pure and Kone Pure Optical are two different mice. The Kone Pure has a laser sensor, while the Kone Pure Optical, obviously, has an optical one.

[Grim Fandango]

^ Wait! Be careful, though, because the Kone Pure and Kone Pure Optical are two different mice. The Kone Pure has a laser sensor, while the Kone Pure Optical, obviously, has an optical one.

Will be taken into consideration.  Don't worry, I do my research before adding any mouse to the list.

[Novus]

Great thread!
I certainly wish I had this information presented concisely like this when I was rodent hunting.
The coating information is superb.
I think one thing that could be added is the quality control and reliability for each mouse. I know we all have our biases and some of us have issues with particular brands and/or certain devices but I think it's good information to have when considering a new device - especially if you've used and handled each mouse.
I think it's also worth noting when products have certain issues with particular batches/generations that have been rectified or significantly improved upon later.
 

[FoxWolf1]

Would reckon the Zealot Jr. I use could, at the least, match the other A3090 mice you've listed in terms of tracking quality...the paint tests, etc. that I did a while ago for my review of it on Overclock.net should still be up there if you're interested (you might have to scroll down a bit to see the enotus result, as I did that test a bit later).

It may be difficult to make a list like this be fully comprehensive, especially now that we're starting to see the adoption of higher-end hardware by non-Western brands, as well as a general proliferation of such brands. For instance, there are more than a few A3090 mice out there that just aren't really part of the "mouse discussion" (at least on English-language boards), but which may eventually find their way over here on eBay or similar channels. Might some of those mice meet or even exceed the performance threshold required for listing here? We don't know, one way or another, if they do or don't. It's also very difficult to get anywhere close to a truly complete picture of what exists, if you're going to include small and/or foreign brands.

Also, if you start talking about comprehensiveness, the list can begin to give people the impression that they can go, "if it's not on this list, it must not have a good sensor." That doesn't really seem fair to the products that we know that we don't know about (or that we just don't know about altogether), but which are at least stating with the right hardware.

[Elrick]

Also, if you start talking about comprehensiveness, the list can begin to give people the impression that they can go, "if it's not on this list, it must not have a good sensor." That doesn't really seem fair to the products that we know that we don't know about (or that we just don't know about altogether), but which are at least stating with the right hardware.

Too right.  We always assume that the main players Logitech, Microsoft, Razer, SteelSeries, Mionix, and such are the ONLY mice available with high performance sensors yet we ignore the myriad of these 'no-name' mice made for the asian markets.

We need to get some details down here regarding these babies as well because on Ebay there are scores of weird, never heard of before mice being sold for decent prices.   Would like to get the details of sensor it uses at least.  Never select just a handful of mice and proclaim that ONLY these are available for gamers world wide  .

[Oobly]

There are 3 Roccat Optical models: Kone Pure Optical, Savu, Kova. They list the sensor as Pro-Optic for the Kova, Pro-Optic(R3) for the Pure Optical and Savu.

May I suggest also adding the Cyborg / MadCatz R.A.T. 3 (Avago 3090) to the list. Currently my favourite mouse.

[Coreda]

On a similar point to FoxWolf's post two 10+ year-old mice I own (Apple Pro, Kensington laptop mouse) have better low sensitivity accuracy than the SS Kinzu, Razer Krait, and Gigabyte mice I bought, at least from my testing using Photoshop.

Would love to see more reviews that cover accuracy in 'regular' mice, as gaming mice are far too over-hyped for accuracy imo. Perhaps newer non-gaming mice have cheaper sensors now, but they would still benefit from such tests.

[Grim Fandango]

Thanks for the suggestions all! Will take everything into consideration and try to find out more about suggested mice with which I have no experience.

Also, if you start talking about comprehensiveness, the list can begin to give people the impression that they can go, "if it's not on this list, it must not have a good sensor." That doesn't really seem fair to the products that we know that we don't know about (or that we just don't know about altogether), but which are at least stating with the right hardware.

I agree. And it was never intended as a "if it is not on the list it is crap" kind of thing. Note that I had the exact same response to the "god-tier mouse guide graphic", which literally states "**** tier: everything else". My response was almost word for word the same as yours. Though I take it even one step further. Not only are there mice that should have been included on that list, but also  mice that are flawed in ways that might not make them completely broken or unusable. My intention is to add these mice at some point. Which is why adding more mice is on the "things to do" list.

I know that not every mouse that should be on the list is on the list. In fact, there are a number of mice that I already plan on adding, and a number of mice I added just yesterday. The only condition is that there must be reliable information out there that is accessible to us, which perhaps explains the omission of (for example) some of the mice sold primarily in Asian markets. Any information in that regard would be helpful, and I will have a look at the mouse you suggested and the review you did. I used the word comprehensive more as an indication that a lot of (though certainly not all) known and available mice with optical sensors and no acceleration and prediction are already on the list. Maybe that was not the right word to use, but I deliberately used it to give an indication that this list will not eventually include 90% of the mice you ever heard of, and give the impression that the number of mice available that avoid the most common problems is limited.

On a similar point to FoxWolf's post two 10+ year-old mice I own (Apple Pro, Kensington laptop mouse) have better low sensitivity accuracy than the SS Kinzu, Razer Krait, and Gigabyte mice I bought, at least from my testing using Photoshop.

Would love to see more reviews that cover accuracy in 'regular' mice, as gaming mice are far too over-hyped for accuracy imo. Perhaps newer non-gaming mice have cheaper sensors now, but they would still benefit from such tests.

If you have any reliable information or testing of your own that you wish to contribute please do. I will include regular mice if the performance is there. I myself have used the Microsoft Wheel Mouse Optical for a long time, which is also just a regular mouse. Whether a mouse is branded as a "gaming mouse" does not matter at all. You are right though, the sensors typically used in newer non-gaming mice are not up to par. This is however not a reason to ignore them, as we have seen with the STMicroelectronics OS MLT 04.

Keep in mind that this is a work in progress, and this is not a definitive list. There are mice that I know of that should  and will be added. Also the descriptions of mice currently on the list will be improved.

[Grim Fandango]

Great thread!
I certainly wish I had this information presented concisely like this when I was rodent hunting.
The coating information is superb.
I think one thing that could be added is the quality control and reliability for each mouse. I know we all have our biases and some of us have issues with particular brands and/or certain devices but I think it's good information to have when considering a new device - especially if you've used and handled each mouse.
I think it's also worth noting when products have certain issues with particular batches/generations that have been rectified or significantly improved upon later.
 

Thanks! I like your suggestions and they will be added. I can not comment on quality control and reliability, simply because all I have is conflicting anecdotal evidence by people on messageboards, which does not give a reliable indication. What I can do however is add information about known design issues and widespread re-occuring problems. Such as mice without stress relief where the cable gets damaged, mouse-wheels that give out consistently before any other part of the mouse, or coating material that deteriorates over time (these are examples of common issues of some of the mice in this list).

I will also add more information about different batches of mice. I already did it a little where I felt it was really important (like the G400), but will eventually also add this info for mice like the IME 3.0, which have different versions.

[Oobly]

Some more info about the RAT 3. On the old one I have (laser sensor version), the middle click started acting up after a long time. It would double press sometimes and sometimes not at all.. Found a suggestion online, tried it and was quite surprised when it worked.

You turn the mouse upside down and wack it firmly with your other hand. Fixed. 

Not sure yet if the newer one with the 3090 sensor has the same issue, since it hasn't happened with mine yet, but at least if it does I know how to fix it

May be handy for any other RAT 3 owners out there to know, too.

[Grim Fandango]

There are 3 Roccat Optical models: Kone Pure Optical, Savu, Kova. They list the sensor as Pro-Optic for the Kova, Pro-Optic(R3) for the Pure Optical and Savu.

May I suggest also adding the Cyborg / MadCatz R.A.T. 3 (Avago 3090) to the list. Currently my favourite mouse.

The Kova (EDIT: I mean Kova +) has not (yet) been added due to the many inconsistencies about what people claim and the discussions surrounding the sensor (Pixart PAW3305DK-H). It was shown to have problems in the kana, and some claim some of these problems carried over to the Kova+, while others claim it did not (pixel skipping, jitter and so on).

At this point I do not have enough reliable information to put it on the list, which does not mean that it does not belong. But given that it uses a sensor that has been shown to have a myriad of issues, it is better to remain skeptical until more reliable information becomes available. To an extent this also holds for the RAT3 that I just added to the list (with a warning attached that more info is needed). But I feel more comfortable adding it to the list knowing the performance of the Avago 3090 in other mice, even though the implementation of a sensor can differ between models and companies.

[Bullveyr]

Jfyi, original Kova had A3080 (3200 CPI setting was interpolated).

[Grim Fandango]

Jfyi, original Kova had A3080 (3200 CPI setting was interpolated).

My bad, the previous response was specifically for the Kova+, since it is a mouse I was already familiar with. The original Kova is still on the list of mice that might be added to the list.  I look into them one at a time whenever I have time for it.

[CPTBadAss]

I really enjoyed this guide so thank you for writing it. I think this and vun's thread are my go-to guides for mice now. I actually picked up a CM Storm Spawn based on vun's recommendations and guide. Now you've got my interest piqued for the WMO and Zowie mice .

[Oobly]

I know it doesn't really matter, but the old RAT3 didn't have a PTE sensor. It's a single laser 3200DPI sensor. Same specs as the original Kone and Logitech G9, but I don't think it's the same sensor. The G9 had detectable acceleration issues for me, laser RAT3 didn't have any acceleration or angle snapping that I could notice. I might just have to open 'er up and take a peek.

Kind of off-topic, but there ya go..

[Grim Fandango]

I know it doesn't really matter, but the old RAT3 didn't have a PTE sensor. It's a single laser 3200DPI sensor. Same specs as the original Kone and Logitech G9, but I don't think it's the same sensor. The G9 had detectable acceleration issues for me, laser RAT3 didn't have any acceleration or angle snapping that I could notice. I might just have to open 'er up and take a peek.

Kind of off-topic, but there ya go..

Thanks again for the suggestions. And it does matter, and I am glad you pointed that out. I made the mistake of assuming it was the Philips Twin Eye sensor since I read a quote by a representative of the company stating that they will be moving on from a Philips laser sensor to the Avago optical sensor. When I read Philips and laser, I automatically assumed PTE since that is the sensor used in the rest of the series. The information has been updated. I am quite interested to know what the original sensor was though.

I really enjoyed this guide so thank you for writing it. I think this and vun's thread are my go-to guides for mice now. I actually picked up a CM Storm Spawn based on vun's recommendations and guide. Now you've got my interest piqued for the WMO and Zowie mice .

Thanks CPT. There are still things to be done and the information currently available will be improved in the future.

[Bullveyr]

Jfyi, original Kova had A3080 (3200 CPI setting was interpolated).

My bad, the previous response was specifically for the Kova+, since it is a mouse I was already familiar with. The original Kova is still on the list of mice that might be added to the list.  I look into them one at a time whenever I have time for it.

Iirc it performed quite poorly (low max speed for an A3080) but I didn't test it extensively because many things felt wrong about the mouse, so it ended up in the drawer pretty quickly.

I know it doesn't really matter, but the old RAT3 didn't have a PTE sensor. It's a single laser 3200DPI sensor. Same specs as the original Kone and Logitech G9, but I don't think it's the same sensor. The G9 had detectable acceleration issues for me, laser RAT3 didn't have any acceleration or angle snapping that I could notice. I might just have to open 'er up and take a peek.

Kind of off-topic, but there ya go..

Thanks again for the suggestions. And it does matter, and I am glad you pointed that out. I made the mistake of assuming it was the Philips Twin Eye sensor since I read a quote by a representative of the company stating that they will be moving on from a Philips laser sensor to the Avago optical sensor. When I read Philips and laser, I automatically assumed PTE since that is the sensor used in the rest of the series. The information has been updated. I am quite interested to know what the original sensor was though.

Afaik (not sure) Cypress Ovation ONS I, like the Ikari Laser for example.

[Oobly]

...

Afaik (not sure) Cypress Ovation ONS I, like the Ikari Laser for example.

You called it CYONS2001, Cypress Ovation ONS 2001 sensor. The strange thing is the datasheet says the 2001 is a 1600DPI sensor.

In case anyone is interested, the left and right button switches are ZHIJ (still working nicely after a few years with some hard use):



Something to note is that the PCB mentions using the CYONS2100 which IS a 3200DPI sensor.

Testing on a Steelseries S&S hard plastic pad and SX alumimium pad I haven't detected any negative or positive acceleration at 1600DPI. It also has really good lift-off-distance (very low).

If you undo this screw here you can set the palm rest to any position, like on the other RAT series mice:



You can probably tell I really like this mouse. This one and the optical version are my favourites. Comfortable, accurate and light.

[Oobly]

I can open up my optical version this evening to check the switch type.

[Grim Fandango]

Adding "quality and design issues" for every mouse, as well as updating the formatting so it is easier to read. Will take a while before I have done this for every mouse on the list. Some mice still need to be added.

@Bullveyr & Oobly, thanks for finding out that information about the sensor. Eventually I will do a contributors list.

[platypus]

You mention that some people have reported their abyssus developing jitter over time, this is likely because of dust accumulating in the lens/sensor area, a puff of compressed air will get it out The abyssus jitter is due to factory loaded firmware, and the old version had jitter, the new one does not. Nowadays, if you buy an abyssus, you probably won't get one loaded with the "jitter" firmware, but there is a chance. It's really a shame, it's my favourite mouse.

[Elrick]

Nowadays, if you buy an abyssus, you probably won't get one loaded with the "jitter" firmware, but there is a chance. It's really a shame, it's my favourite mouse.

Not a Razer fan at all but if you MUST purchase this rodent better get it from a brick & mortar establishment because if you get one that's faulty simply return it.  What ever you do don't buy off Ebay because there is a high chance of getting an older 'dodgey' sensor, and the cost of shipping that beggar back to country of origin wouldn't be worth it.

[Novus]

Nowadays, if you buy an abyssus, you probably won't get one loaded with the "jitter" firmware, but there is a chance. It's really a shame, it's my favourite mouse.

Not a Razer fan at all but if you MUST purchase this rodent better get it from a brick & mortar establishment because if you get one that's faulty simply return it.  What ever you do don't buy off Ebay because there is a high chance of getting an older 'dodgey' sensor, and the cost of shipping that beggar back to country of origin wouldn't be worth it.

+1
and I think there's a bunch of Chinese fakes too.

[Grim Fandango]

I changed the text so it reflects some of the uncertainty we have about the Abyssus and the "jitter" problem. There is a lot of conflicting information about it. Some people claim they have tried multiple new abyssus and they all had the problem. Others tried only one and found the problem was not there. Yet others claim that the problem only exist on certain surfaces etc. The one thing we know is that when you get an abyssus, there is a chance that the "jitter-problem" will be present.

I am actually not sure whether it can develop jitter over time. But I have seen this being mentioned a lot.

One of the possible consequences of the "design/quality problems" added is that a lot of people will see their mouse and disagree that there is any problem. Or they will have another problem that they feel should be added. I try to keep it fair by limiting it to well-known, wide-spread and persistent problems that a lot of people have experienced.

[Elrick]

One of the possible consequences of the "design/quality problems" added is that a lot of people will see their mouse and disagree that there is any problem. Or they will have another problem that they feel should be added. I try to keep it fair by limiting it to well-known, wide-spread and persistent problems that a lot of people have experienced.

Just be careful that when it comes to certain geekhackers input devices, they will get agro if you cast dispersions upon their chosen mouse.  In the ESR forums it's routine for name calling and threats to become the status quo.  Pity though because some of the info required is important, rather then getting involved in a furious keyboard slanging match (as only the internet can provide)  .  ESR are quite passionate about their mice.....

[Grim Fandango]

One of the possible consequences of the "design/quality problems" added is that a lot of people will see their mouse and disagree that there is any problem. Or they will have another problem that they feel should be added. I try to keep it fair by limiting it to well-known, wide-spread and persistent problems that a lot of people have experienced.

Just be careful that when it comes to certain geekhackers input devices, they will get agro if you cast dispersions upon their chosen mouse.  In the ESR forums it's routine for name calling and threats to become the status quo.  Pity though because some of the info required is important, rather then getting involved in a furious keyboard slanging match (as only the internet can provide)  .  ESR are quite passionate about their mice.....

I realize that this is a possibility. Though I think I should be safe as long as I just stick to those issues that have been confirmed so many times, and experienced by so many people, that they can not be denied. For example, even people who love the WMO more than any other mouse in the world will not argue that the mouse-wheel jump does not exist. If people are really passionate about a peripheral and use it intensively for a long time, then they should be more aware of whatever flaws it has than anyone else.

[osi]

Great info in the OP. Thanks for putting it all together!

[CeeSA]

to quote w0ll3 (not in exact words), the R.A.T 3 with A3090 is messed up by lense and or Firmware. It's only fine with the native resolutions of the A3090 1800 and 3500dpi.

[Oobly]

to quote w0ll3 (not in exact words), the R.A.T 3 with A3090 is messed up by lense and or Firmware. It's only fine with the native resolutions of the A3090 1800 and 3500dpi.

Very interesting. I use it at the centre setting, which I assume is 1800, so that may be why I haven't noticed anything weird. The older, laser version is looking better than the new optical as I dig deeper.

[Grim Fandango]

to quote w0ll3 (not in exact words), the R.A.T 3 with A3090 is messed up by lense and or Firmware. It's only fine with the native resolutions of the A3090 1800 and 3500dpi.

Thanks. Do you maybe have a link to the original post? I have the mouse listed now, but really we need to know more about it before it deserves to be on the list.

[CeeSA]

http://www.overclock.net/t/1336919/new-mionix-naos-8200-dpi-gaming-mouse/0_30#post_18809091

He also says: " i got 2.4 m/s on QCK+ and the cursor fidelity isnt as good as the old Version, also the tracking feels a bit weird to me"

[daetsid]

great guide.

I own a IE 1.1, 3.0  and a 2 G400 (with and without prediction). Love them all. However, IE sensors cannot deal with my low sens + high G's (acceleration) unless the USB freq is setted up on 500mhz

[Novus]

I noticed a typo 
You put this:
Quality/ Design issues: Currently there are no known frequently recurring problems with the Kana v2
under the Mionix Avoir 7000

[Grim Fandango]

I noticed a typo 
You put this:
Quality/ Design issues: Currently there are no known frequently recurring problems with the Kana v2
under the Mionix Avoir 7000

Ah thanks 

[dmbr]

Why no laser mice? I know about the built-in accel problem, but isn't that only on soft pads?

[vun]

Why no laser mice? I know about the built-in accel problem, but isn't that only on soft pads?

No, the accel is on all pads, but certain surface/colour combos do reduce the amount of accel.

[dmbr]

What about the Corsair m40 and m45?

[Elrick]

What about the Corsair m40 and m45?

Yeah, the M40 really looks interesting, especially for the price  .

[daerid]

Looks like the M30 is Corsair's entry into the IE3 clone market?