IBM Model F (122-key) converter question

[1391406]

I know Hagstrom's XT to USB converter works with 83-key Model F's, but does anyone know if it'll work with a 122-key version?

[1391406]

Specifically a 6110347 Model F.

[fohat.digs]

Probably not.

The plug is wrong for one thing, and making/wiring an adapter is likely to be harder than just hooking up a Teensy.

And, of course, a Teensy costs a third the price of a Hagstrom.

[JPG]

And with a Soarer, you can remap keys, configure layers, really worth it. You can also get a pro micro for 6-8$ on ebay and it does a great job! Just need to solder some cables to it and plug em in the keyboard or make a full external converter, your choice!

[1391406]

Probably not.

The plug is wrong for one thing

What kind of plug would I use to hook it up to a Teensy?

[fohat.digs]

No need for a plug unless you want to do it all outboard and can find a female 240 degree DIN socket.

Otherwise, you go from 4 of the pins in the lower left of this photo to the Teensy. The Teensy has a mini-USB socket so you go straight to the computer from there.

[JPG]

I also have a question that should be pretty useful for the op: Do you have a suggestion for the wire to use with the teensy to plug in the controller? I have used some cheap wire from china on my last mods and they are working, but barely. The feel weak and since I have another one to do, I would like to get some recommendation on the best wire to use.


Thx in advance!

[1391406]

No need for a plug unless you want to do it all outboard and can find a female 240 degree DIN socket.

Would this work?

Otherwise, you go from 4 of the pins in the lower left of this photo to the Teensy. The Teensy has a mini-USB socket so you go straight to the computer from there.

That's a pretty straight forward option. I've never poked around the innards of an F-122. Is the controller easy to get to? Is there anything I need to be aware of before opening the case?

[fohat.digs]

That socket would be good if you were building an outboard box.

I have also used these when I was making a pigtail to take it to a standard male AT cable.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/400301755521

To avoid soldering, if you get a Teensy "with pins" these make it very easy:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/40pcs-20cm-2-54mm-15-Male-to-Female-Dupont-Wire-Jumper-Cable-for-Arduino-Shield-/360772177921?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item53ffb29001

My F-122 ANSI guide has several diagrams and photos.

[1391406]

To avoid soldering, if you get a Teensy "with pins" these make it very easy:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/40pcs-20cm-2-54mm-15-Male-to-Female-Dupont-Wire-Jumper-Cable-for-Arduino-Shield-/360772177921?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item53ffb29001

Thanks. Those are male-to-female. Just curious, but wouldn't I want female-to-female to connect the pin outs on the controller to the pin outs on the Teensy?

[fohat.digs]

Thanks. Those are male-to-female. Just curious, but wouldn't I want female-to-female to connect the pin outs on the controller to the pin outs on the Teensy?

You are right. I just went to ebay and clicked on the first picture that came up.

If you get a Teensy with pins, you will want female-to-female.

With male-to-female, if you have a soldering iron, you could get a Teensy without pins and solder the male tips into the 4 holes you are using. That would be preferable if you want a stronger and more permanent installation.

If you are smart, you will use the same colors as the original cable to avoid confusion!

[1391406]

Thanks. All of this is very helpful. One other question, how are the the pins labeled (eg. clock, gnd, +5v, data) on the controller? Further, I'm guessing I'll be using the IBM 3179/318x/319x diagram shown in Soarer's converter documentation as a guide?

[fohat.digs]

Thanks. All of this is very helpful. One other question, how are the the pins labeled (eg. clock, gnd, +5v, data) on the controller?

Ha Ha, they are not.

But there is one pin missing from the entire bank, you can see the gap at the next-to-last one on the bottom, and the original cable plug has a blank hole, so there is only one way that it can go.

I discuss this with pictures early in my guide:

http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=48786.msg1122437#msg1122437

[1391406]

Thanks for the help, fohat.

I've decided to build an external converter, namely because I'm not even sure the F-122 I bought is functional(sold without testing), but moreover, assuming it works, there's also the possibility of finding one in better condition in the future. With an external converter, swapping them would be a cinch.

[fohat.digs]

I built an external converter box with a female AT receptacle.

Old AT keyboards as well as IBM F XTs can plug in directly, and I have bought or built adapters to accept other cable types as pigtails.

[1391406]

I built an external converter box with a female AT receptacle.

Awesome job. That looks really professional. You should sell them. There has to be a market(eg. Hagstrom). I'd love to make or buy one like it. Where'd you get the box?

[dorkvader]

I made one as well with a smaller enclosure and a very nice (and expensive) locking amphenol connector. I'll try to find a picture if you like.

I'd considered making a few, but teensies are really expensive, and I found through asking that no-one wanted to pay that much for one. Now that the arduino pro micro clones are cheap, available, and soarer compatible, I may make up some with those.

I think the breakdown of parts was something like this
New age enclosures 3" dongle box : something like $3-$5 from mouser (alternative use an aluminium box from eBay)
Teensy $17
Expensive Amphenol jack: $7 - $11 (for AT/XT or terminal)
 (alt. cheap midi jack: $.58 shipped from Dale Pro Audio... only for AT/XT) http://www.daleproaudio.com/p-4070-neutrik-nys325-receptacle-din-5-pin-female-180-degrees.aspx
 (alt PS/2 jack): $3 from mouser http://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Kobiconn/161-381-6-E/?qs=yPHAXQvN3brCiGR0kz2f2Q%3d%3d
solder $ negligeable
Wire from jack to teensy $ negligeable
USB cable $ a few dollars
---
So it can be expensive if you get a cable mount amphenol jack (they are really nice though.
http://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Amphenol/T-3361-001/?qs=%2fha2pyFadujRJxz3cxHJAP22WMRVxd%2fhhX0UBkR%252bwKjdRDg9VyLfng%3d%3d

a little less if you get a panel mount amphenol jack (my recommendation: they are really nice! Threads right in and locks.
http://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Amphenol/T-3363-000/?qs=%2fha2pyFadujRJxz3cxHJABipgz%2fZez9LDqNaOUKbEyMGLd%2fweFs6gg%3d%3d

even cheaper for the PS/2 jack.

More expensive for the teensy

Cheaper for the Pro micro or other.

---
Then there's time, loading it up with firmware, etc. The upshot is that they're awesome and really reliable. The downside is that the teensy is hard to mount in the box. I now recommend getting a panel mount USB jack and wiring it to the microcontroller. It's a bit more expensive but much nicer.

[mougrim]

Hmmm... nice convertor. I'm almost want to build it... or order one built to someone

[fohat.digs]

I'd love to make or buy one like it. Where'd you get the box?

I ordered almost everything (except for the Teensy) from China - dirt cheap but 3-week shipping.

If the Teensy has pins and you put it in a breadboard, it can be mounted inside. I cut off a section of a plastic wine cork and hot-glued it to the inside of the project box.

People seem reluctant to pay for the nuisance fiddling, ordering a bunch of fussy parts, and putting them together, but at the Hagstrom price point, $50, it might be worth doing.

[1391406]

People seem reluctant to pay for the nuisance fiddling, ordering a bunch of fussy parts, and putting them together, but at the Hagstrom price point, $50, it might be worth doing.

Well, time is money, as they say. For some people it may cost more in time to research and learn how to build something than to pay someone else to do it. For others, like me, they have little to no interest in tinkering with things like that and are solely interested in the end rather than the means. For some people, it's simply a hassle and worth a few extra bucks to let someone else screw with it. In my opinion, that's why a lot of people opt to buy pre-built / pre-tested PC's even though it's often a lot cheaper to build your own.

[1391406]

Oh yeah, while we're on the subject of F-122's, I meant to ask if they're 2KRO?

[mougrim]

Oh yeah, while we're on the subject of F-122's, I meant to ask if they're 2KRO?

Isn't they NKRO?

[fohat.digs]

Here are some links to some of the things that you might use in a converter box:

Fast cheap source for USB-to-mini at the Teensy
http://www.ebay.com/itm/330927661608

Adapter for PS/2 keyboard if you have a female AT jack
http://www.ebay.com/itm/330990666157

Connector for F-122 cable, if you need to build a pigtail
http://www.ebay.com/itm/331141185858

Connector for so-called "RJ45" cable if you want to build a pigtail
http://www.ebay.com/itm/400301755521

Connector for so-called "RJ45" cable if you want to build a socket into your box
http://www.ebay.com/itm/380878940383

[1391406]

Just an update...

Got the Teensy, 5 pin DIN connector, and some wires to attach the two today. Everything came together without a hitch. It took about 45 minutes, but it really was super easy, probably because I knew exactly what I was supposed to do beforehand. I'm typing this on it now. So, thanks again, I really appreciate the help!

[fohat.digs]

Everything came together without a hitch.

Always glad to hear a happy ending.

I have been using the F-122 for 2-1/2 years and never looked back.

All hail the great Soarer!

[1391406]

Fohat, quick question. I've checked your disassembly guide, but I couldn't find any information regarding removing the space bar.  The actuation force is perfect, but it tends to rattle a bit when typing normally. It's a tad wobbly. Can I pry it off without disassembling the board or ... ?

[dorkvader]

Fohat, quick question. I've checked your disassembly guide, but I couldn't find any information regarding removing the space bar.  The actuation force is perfect, but it tends to rattle a bit when typing normally. It's a tad wobbly. Can I pry it off without disassembling the board or ... ?

I can answer that.

The F122 spacebar is functionally the same as a model M spacebar. You can safely remove it just like the shift or other stabilized keys.

[1391406]

Fohat, quick question. I've checked your disassembly guide, but I couldn't find any information regarding removing the space bar.  The actuation force is perfect, but it tends to rattle a bit when typing normally. It's a tad wobbly. Can I pry it off without disassembling the board or ... ?

I can answer that.

The F122 spacebar is functionally the same as a model M spacebar. You can safely remove it just like the shift or other stabilized keys.

I was hoping that's the case. Thanks, dv.

[fohat.digs]

The F122 spacebar is functionally the same as a model M spacebar. You can safely remove it just like the shift or other stabilized keys.

The F uses a thinner wire than the M, so you can use an F spacebar on an M, but not vice versa. Otherwise, they are equivalent.

The F is very rare, and the M is very common (and also available in colors) so I have replaced the plastic hold-down inserts (which accommodate the thin wires) with home-made tabs to fit M wires, on some of my conversions.

Wcass has developed an extremely elegant solution where larger "sleeves" are added to the spacebar ends of the stabilizer wire such that the thin center section will still fit the original F tabs.

[1391406]

I ended up bending the wire stabilizer upwards (in the center) just a bit to take out the slack. No more rattle or wobble.

[fohat.digs]

I ended up bending the wire stabilizer upwards (in the center) just a bit to take out the slack.

I think that is the opposite of Akimbo's method for lightening the spacebar pressure on the XT and AT.

[mougrim]

I ended up bending the wire stabilizer upwards (in the center) just a bit to take out the slack.

I think that is the opposite of Akimbo's method for lightening the spacebar pressure on the XT and AT.

So stock XT and AT boards really have that beast of a spacebar?

[JPG]

I ended up bending the wire stabilizer upwards (in the center) just a bit to take out the slack.

I think that is the opposite of Akimbo's method for lightening the spacebar pressure on the XT and AT.

So stock XT and AT boards really have that beast of a spacebar?

Yes they do, but when you type on it for a while you somewhat get used to it. At home I use my XT mainly for gaming and at job I use my F122 to code and while I prefer my F122 because of the better layout and the "normal" spacebar, I still like to use my XT for gaming and the stiff spacebar does not bother while gaming. It might be more problematic for typing on a regular basis but it might be good for your thumb muscles

[1391406]

Just got through programming a number of keys and replacing some of the stock keys with Model M key caps. I'd love to have a full ANSI layout, but I'm too timid to perform Fohat's ANSI mod. Nevertheless, this is the layout I've decided on heretofore:



To get closer to the Model M layout, right shift is now two keys(right shift + the key beside it). The middle arrow key now serves as the down arrow, which is a duplicate of the down arrow that was already present. While the stock CTRL and ALT keys weren't bad, per se, I do prefer the Model M's versions . Other changes are obvious with the exception of the Windows key, calculator, and My Computer shortcut keys. That said, I may end up moving the Escape key to F13.

Overall, I can definitely live with that layout, and to have it in Capacitive Buckling Spring is awesome!

[mougrim]

I ended up bending the wire stabilizer upwards (in the center) just a bit to take out the slack.

I think that is the opposite of Akimbo's method for lightening the spacebar pressure on the XT and AT.

So stock XT and AT boards really have that beast of a spacebar?

Yes they do, but when you type on it for a while you somewhat get used to it. At home I use my XT mainly for gaming and at job I use my F122 to code and while I prefer my F122 because of the better layout and the "normal" spacebar, I still like to use my XT for gaming and the stiff spacebar does not bother while gaming. It might be more problematic for typing on a regular basis but it might be good for your thumb muscles

Got my AT today. It *really* has that stiff space bar. But I dont mind, as my typing method for now is "two-finger method with occasional strokes with thumbs"

[1391406]

Got my AT today. It *really* has that stiff space bar. But I dont mind, as my typing method for now is "two-finger method with occasional strokes with thumbs"

Congrats on the AT. The one I acquired some time back has a slightly firmer space bar than my Model M's, but it's not bad. Have you considered the space bar mod others have mentioned?

[mougrim]

Got my AT today. It *really* has that stiff space bar. But I dont mind, as my typing method for now is "two-finger method with occasional strokes with thumbs"

Congrats on the AT. The one I acquired some time back has a slightly firmer space bar than my Model M's, but it's not bad. Have you considered the space bar mod others have mentioned?

Thankee Only Model M I got is my Unicomp one, and Model F space bar is much stiffer. But I think I'm going to like it - at least it have totally different feeling from all other keys.

About space bar mod - well, I'll consider it, but... for now I'll try to do with the stock one. One modding I considered was ANSI-mod, but I got one already ANSI-modded. And dental floss modded. So far- so good. But  my motherboard just didn't had enough juice for AT - it won't work woth PS/2 adaptor. But seller kindly included PS/2 to USB one - it works. Maybe I'll do Soarers some point later, but not now.

Now I just need 122 Model F. And bigger desk