Help Me Learn About Alps: Complicated vs Simplified

[Defect]

Just got my hands on a Focus 2001 with complicated white alps, a bag of Matias Click switches, and a Suntouch Jr. with (from what I could gather) simplified White Alps.

The complicated white alps feel stiffer (maybe not the right word) and more sluggish than the switches on the Suntouch Jr.  The Matias switches felt...I don't want to say Cheaper but they did feel Cheaper.

I'm rambling.  Here's my question:

What is the difference between Complicated Clicky Alps and Simplified Clicky Alps?  I've taken them apart so I understand there's more components and more friction points in complicated alps, but what else am I missing?  I actually prefer the simplified (or are they clones) on the Suntouch Jr. over the complicated white alps on the Focus 2001.  And prefer complicated over matias.  But I do like the Matias ones

Why do they feel different?  Which do you prefer?

Edit: Just opened up one of the switches in my Suntouch Jr.  Also looks like complicated white alps?  But it feels so different from the ones in my Focus 2001.  Now I'm ridiculously confused.

Edit 2: Images of my Suntouch Jr.

[jacobolus]

There does seem to be some variation over time (for instance, among complicated white Alps switches, there are what Daniel Beardsmore calls “pine” and “bamboo” variants, depending on whether they have little slits visible from the top). Also, age can have a big effect on switches: grit can get in making the switch more sluggish and scratchier, improper storage or heavy use can reduce the 'snap' left in leaf springs.

[BlueBär]

Some pics might help in this case.

[Defect]

There does seem to be some variation over time (for instance, among complicated white Alps switches, there are what Daniel Beardsmore calls “pine” and “bamboo” variants, depending on whether they have little slits visible from the top). Also, age can have a big effect on switches: grit can get in making the switch more sluggish and scratchier, improper storage or heavy use can reduce the 'snap' left in leaf springs.

Tried cleaning the internals of the Focus 2001.  Didn't seem to change it much.  But when I put in a spring from a Matias switch, it made it a little less sluggish.  Wonder if the springs are the issue.  Need to open the Suntouch Jr again...

Some pics might help in this case.

I really wish I could...lens on my phone broke so I have to use front cam (which blows).  Main camera is at home with my family.

They're both complicated white alps.  I haven't had time to inspect the springs yet.  It has the wider click clear used in complicated switches and the matias simplified.  Has the 10 or 12-piece backplate as well.


Thanks for the responses, guys.

[jacobolus]

Tried cleaning the internals of the Focus 2001.  Didn't seem to change it much.  But when I put in a sprint from a Matias switch, it made it a little less sluggish.

The click leaves from Matias switches are definitely a bit snappier than most of the Alps clicky-switch click leaves I’ve tried. It might partly just be because they’re newer though.

Replacing the click/tactile leaves in worn-out Alps switches with new ones from Matias switches is a good way to resuscitate them.

[Defect]

Tried cleaning the internals of the Focus 2001.  Didn't seem to change it much.  But when I put in a sprint from a Matias switch, it made it a little less sluggish.

The click leaves from Matias switches are definitely a bit snappier than most of the Alps clicky-switch click leaves I’ve tried. It might partly just be because they’re newer though.

Replacing the click/tactile leaves in worn-out Alps switches with new ones from Matias switches is a good way to resuscitate them.

My bad, typo.  I meant spring.

I'll try leaf swapping.

[Daniel Beardsmore]

"pine", "bamboo" and "plum" are Japanese terms — I got them from MouseFan's website, and Sandy explained them to me.

Drat. The page I was using as a reference on the wiki is already a 404. The correct URL:

http://www.digi-joho.com/living-japan/110-matsu-take-ume.html

I am not sure what your actual questions are, but these should help:

http://deskthority.net/wiki/Alps_SKCL/SKCM_series "complicated"
http://deskthority.net/wiki/Alps_SKBL/SKBM_series "simplified"

Hopefully the above pages will answer at least some of what you want to know.

[Daniel Beardsmore]

Wait, complicated white Alps in the SunTouch Jr? Now that's interesting … that's the first I've heard of any of the MiniTouch/SunTouch Jr family having Alps switches.

That definitely needs photographing : )

[jacobolus]

I’m not really familiar with different types of white Alps switches. But also see:
http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=7248.msg120360#msg120360

siig minitouch = real, complicated, original, bigfoots.

one problem tho, the real complicated original bigfoots came in 2 slightly different varieties (I've had trouble pinning down the difference, which is supposed to be slight). For instance, real alps-heads (sandy comes to mind) would insist that you can only get the, er, "REAL-REAL, complicated, original, bigfoots" on the northgates and CVTs (no doubt he'd know of other obscure boards too).

The siig, also the dell at101w, and sgi etc, have the regular-real, complicated, original, bigfoots.

I think the distinction is just an age thing:
http://deskthority.net/wiki/Alps_SKCL/SKCM_series#Slits

[Daniel Beardsmore]

I dispute what wellington wrote. The MiniTouch came with two switches: "Monterey" second generation SMK switches, and what I believe are Hua-Jie AK-CN2 (since Monterey themselves told me they used Hua-Jie switches; the switches match the photo Hua-Jie sent me of the internals of an AK-CN2).

From what Defect is saying, it maybe that small batches were made with real Alps switches, but they're going to be extremely rare.

Edit 1:

However, it gets complicated. As mentioned on the DT wiki, SIIG only bought the keyboards from Monterey for one year between January 2002 and January 2003, yet the keyboard was FCC registered in 1991. My suspicion is that SIIG bought old stock up, because that would explain how they burnt through so many variations in a single year, including using SMK switches that so far as I know were long gone by that point in time. (The SIIG MiniTouch was made in two countries, used two switches, and two different legend printing methods, in various combinations.)

The Alps versions are probably the original model from 1991.

http://deskthority.net/wiki/SIIG_MiniTouch

It's only my speculation though, as we don't really know what happened. The first place to check is the dates on all the chips on the PCB to see if you can ascertain a year of manufacture.

Edit 2:

OK, so it gets worse:

http://us.usbid.ru/index.php/shopping/store/debnroo.com?ylot=m124859415

The photos won't hang around, but basically it's a Filco DFK-81E2, which is the Filco version of the MiniTouch.

What's interesting is that the box reads "Microsoft Windows® 95/98/98(SE)/Me/2000/XP", in other words it's approximately contemporary with the SIIG version.

The now-defunct Diatec page was: http://www.diatec.co.jp/cps/special/dfk-81e2.html

Switches documented that I've found so far are all four-tab clones:

http://homepage2.nifty.com/sskicr/pcreview/keyboard3.html
http://www.neotec.co.jp/syouhin/key/101etc/filco/dfk81e2.html

[Defect]

I'm not an Alps master by any means, so I could be wrong on the switch type in the Suntouch Jr.  Maybe it's a simplified White and I'm retarded.

I really want to take some high res photos when I can bring my board home and get the nice camera out.  But hold on, I'll open a switch again and take a photo with the front cam on my cellphone just because you guys are so active in responding.

Edit: Link

[jacobolus]

Yep, those are the “pine” (i.e. with slits) SKCM white switches.

[Defect]

Yep, those are the “pine” (i.e. with slits) SKCM white switches.

When I bought the board I was expecting white clones.  Everything I found on the Minitouch suggests Minitouch's have either Monterrey Blues or Simplified Click Alps Clones.  Surprised to hear you verify that the ones in my Suntouch Jr. are SKCM Whites.

Also, I love these switches.  I was originally going to swap SKCM Whites from the Focus 2001 to the Suntouch Jr.  But...I guess now I don't have to.  And I have an extra Focus 2001 with mushy SKCM Whites.  Time to figure out what's going on with that.

[jacobolus]

And I have an extra Focus 2001 with mushy SKCM Whites.

If they outwardly look the same as the ones in the minitouch, but they’re mushy, that probably means either: (a) they were used heavily, or (b) they were stored at some point with the switches pressed down for a long period of time.

If you pull the click leaf out, you’ll probably notice that the side of it that is supposed to be straight (the side facing toward the switch housing, away from the slider) has a bit of a bend to it. If you straighten that part out, you can usually restore the click, but very slight and subtle changes to the leaf have big effects on the switch feel, so it’s hard to do this consistently for a whole keyboard’s worth of switches.

[Daniel Beardsmore]

Slits ... Those are pine switches, so that keyboard was made in 1993 or earlier. The controller chip on mine (with AK-CN2 switches) reads "C32304AE MONTEREY ANC88492 9615 ⓜ© INTEL 1980", suggesting that it was manufactured in 1996 week 15. What date does the controller chip on yours appear to have?

The switches could be transplants, of course, but if the keyboard appears to have a manufacture date between 1991 and 1993, the switches are probably the originals.

A photo of the label on the back would be really helpful, too. They never have a year on, but it should give at least the FCC ID and maybe the model number as well.

The SunTouch Jr — as I understand it, the SunTouch (a Chicony KB-5181) and SunTouch Jr (the little Monterey keyboard) are Sun protocol keyboards — is this the case with yours? (I am not sure it's ever been "officially" confirmed.)

[Defect]

Slits ... Those are pine switches, so that keyboard was made in 1993 or earlier. The controller chip on mine (with AK-CN2 switches) reads "C32304AE MONTEREY ANC88492 9615 ⓜ© INTEL 1980", suggesting that it was manufactured in 1996 week 15. What date does the controller chip on yours appear to have?

The switches could be transplants, of course, but if the keyboard appears to have a manufacture date between 1991 and 1993, the switches are probably the originals.

A photo of the label on the back would be really helpful, too. They never have a year on, but it should give at least the FCC ID and maybe the model number as well.

The SunTouch Jr — as I understand it, the SunTouch (a Chicony KB-5181) and SunTouch Jr (the little Monterey keyboard) are Sun protocol keyboards — is this the case with yours? (I am not sure it's ever been "officially" confirmed.)

Not opening this board up yet because I was SO impressed with it that I actually do want to take photos of it before I start playing around with internals.  It was supposed to be a zombie board but I really like the feel.

Here's the sticker on the back:

More

Edit: Searches on FCC ID suggest this should be Simplified White Alps.  But...those are for the Ortek branded versions.

Edit 2: Screw it you guys are so helpful I owe you at least this:

More

Ortek 1977?

[terrpn]

daniel.................you got it going on brother

[Daniel Beardsmore]

Ha. As soon as I saw that FCC grantee code I knew something was wrong. I hadn't paid any attention to the first photo — which does in fact clearly show a keyboard in the Ortek MCK-84 series. SIIG have therefore badged two different keyboards as the Suntouch Jr — an Ortek MCK-84 variety (hence the metal label Ortek always used), and some product from Monterey that we have yet to identify. The MCK-84 series is well-known; I don't know whether any ever came with real Alps switches though. Ortek are also still around and I've been trying to find out whose Alps clone switches they used, without any success.

The 1977 copyright date refers to the year that Intel designed that controller chip, though I don't think that's really a 1977 design, as XT wasn't even invented then, let alone AT.

I don't like the way Ortek labelled their chips, since the numbers are so hard to read. "ORTEK96" would be far too new for those switches, but it could be "ORTEK90", which would tie in with the FCC ID. The FCC ID on the label is a misprint, and it should read "GM8MCK-84KBPAD", which was registered in 1990. I don't know whether "ORTEK90" means "made in 1990" (which or would be a perfect match for those switches, suggesting that they're original) or "designed in 1990".

[Defect]

Ha. As soon as I saw that FCC grantee code I knew something was wrong. I hadn't paid any attention to the first photo — which does in fact clearly show a keyboard in the Ortek MCK-84 series. SIIG have therefore badged two different keyboards as the Suntouch Jr — an Ortek MCK-84 variety (hence the metal label Ortek always used), and some product from Monterey that we have yet to identify. The MCK-84 series is well-known; I don't know whether any ever came with real Alps switches though. Ortek are also still around and I've been trying to find out whose Alps clone switches they used, without any success.

The 1977 copyright date refers to the year that Intel designed that controller chip, though I don't think that's really a 1977 design, as XT wasn't even invented then, let alone AT.

I don't like the way Ortek labelled their chips, since the numbers are so hard to read. "ORTEK96" would be far too new for those switches, but it could be "ORTEK90", which would tie in with the FCC ID. The FCC ID on the label is a misprint, and it should read "GM8MCK-84KBPAD", which was registered in 1990. I don't know whether "ORTEK90" means "made in 1990" (which or would be a perfect match for those switches, suggesting that they're original) or "designed in 1990".

The PCB doesn't appear to be modified, and AFAIK that would be the only way to swap in SKCM Alps in place of the clones.  Could this be a clone of complicated alps?

I also saw that the FCCID is missing the "M" in GM8MCK.  Searching with the M takes me to Ortek boards as you mentioned.

What's interesting is that there is also a Suntouch Jr. that looks exactly like the minitouch (with small F-row and everything).

Man...they really don't know how to use names properly O.O

Either way, I love the feel of the switches.  But now I got to know what SKCM blues feel like...since everyone says they're better

[Daniel Beardsmore]

I don't think anyone's ever cloned complicated Alps. No-one's going to go to that sort of expense ; )

[Daniel Beardsmore]

I think we can debunk the claim of "Sun" meaning "Sun Microsystems". There's a Suntouch Mac, which would make no sense if Sun meant the computer company:

http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=15667.0

"Suntouch" just seems to be their name for their full-size keyboards; it looks like they couldn't make their mind up over what to call the little one, using variously MiniTouch (with an inconsistent capital 'T'), and Suntouch Jr.

(Then again, the Suntouch Mac is another Ortek, while the regular Suntouch is a Chicony.)

There was also a Suntouch Jr numeric keypad, but all that's left of this a broken eBay auction with all the images missing, and a few cached Google thumbnails.

Auction: http://www.ebay.com/itm/181241268214 (last glance before the rest of the page disappears for good)

Having seen that, I did then wonder if this is what the modular jack on the back is for (mine's not wired up) but the photo cached on Google shows what appears to be a D-subminiature plug instead, so I have no idea where that goes. It doesn't go into either a PC or into the back of a MiniTouch.

[Daniel Beardsmore]

One More Thing™:

If your Suntouch Jr has the DA-15 socket on the back for a numeric keypad, here's the gen on it:

http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=13826.0

The connector extends out the matrix directly into the external keypad. That explains why it uses a connector with so many pins.

[Defect]

Thanks for all your help.  Exciting experience!

Now I just need...MORE ALPS

[Daniel Beardsmore]

Does yours have the DA-15 rear socket?

Looking forwards to some high quality photos of the keyboard; there's a new page waiting for them:

http://deskthority.net/wiki/SIIG_Suntouch_Jr.

Photos of the Suntouch Jr are surprisingly scarce.

[Defect]

Does yours have the DA-15 rear socket?

Looking forwards to some high quality photos of the keyboard; there's a new page waiting for them:

http://deskthority.net/wiki/SIIG_Suntouch_Jr.

Photos of the Suntouch Jr are surprisingly scarce.

There is a 15 pin connector on the back.

[Daniel Beardsmore]

I've added at least most of the common compact Orteks to the wiki:

http://deskthority.net/wiki/Ortek_compact_series

I'm guessing yours is a derivative of the Ortek MKB-84, as it appears to be 84-key with ISO enter (the SIIG model number of K84Jr. implies this also, assuming it's more accurate than Ortek's model numbers!), but it would be useful to have a full top photo for proper identification.

[Defect]

15 Pin Connector:

More

Full Board:

More

[jacobolus]

Via reddit, this looks like the numpad that goes with it:
https://imgur.com/a/I5Iil

[Daniel Beardsmore]

Defect: So, that makes yours an MKB-84 SX. It seems that SX were the more expensive versions with Alps switches and FX were were cheaper versions with clone switches.

jacobolus: Interesting how that just appeared yesterday; yes, that matches the one on eBay, except that the SIIG branding has come off the front. Interestingly it doesn't have any model number, SIIG or Ortek, or an FCC ID. Switches appear to be genuine Alps, but I can't tell if they're SKCM or SKBM. Whoever took that photo needs a flash on his or her camera.

[jacobolus]

You might be able to get the poster to take a better picture. Here’s the reddit thread:
http://www.reddit.com/r/MechanicalKeyboards/comments/29d9qa/picked_up_a_keypad_today_looking_to_learn_more/

[Daniel Beardsmore]

Ugh, I've joined Reddit ...

Apparently I am "doing that too much. try again in 4 minutes" — I am doing what too much? Maybe I used too many real words, especially as they accidentally a few words out.