To searchers for the perfect keyboards: let me know how I can help.

[BigBlueSaw]

Simon here. I noticed a lot of people visiting our website (Big Blue Saw) from the DIY Resources thread (http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=33298.0) as well as a bunch of recent orders for keyboard base plates and the like.

My standard daily keyboard is an older model Goldtouch: I have 2 working ones and 1 that was partially dissected for a project which never quite materialized (and perhaps I need to get some help on that here...) I like the layout a lot, especially the left-hand delete and backspace, as well as the compact right-hand side which makes reaching for my trackball much easier than with a full-size KB or even one without a numeric keypad. The feel is a little mushy though and I did have to mod one of them a bit to make the keys more reliable.

Anyhow, I'm looking forward to finding out more about making the best keyboards possible. I'm fairly knowledgeable about CAD and CNC machining, especially waterjet and laser cutting, so if you've got any questions about that, please hit me up.

[jacobolus]

Hi Simon, thanks for stopping by.

The Goldtouch seems to me like a reasonable layout (not my ideal, but better than the standard shape), but I really can’t stand rubber dome keyswitches, after being spoiled by nicer switches.

You could definitely build a Goldtouch-layout discrete-mechanical-switch keyboard without inordinately much trouble, if you can waterjet a 16 gauge steel plate, do some soldering to wire a diode/switch matrix on the back, and make some kind of case (using several layers of wood or acrylic is a popular DIY method, but there are a variety of possibilities). It would be a bunch of work, but a fun learning experience. :-)

[Pacifist]

Welcome!

GH discount for plates? )

[jacobolus]

One question: if geekhack folks wanted to do a “group buy” of 25 or 50 or 100 identical (or maybe a few different styles) switch plates, all mailed out separately to different addresses, what would the pricing be like for something like that? As far as I can tell, your typical orders have all the parts mailed to the same address.

[wcass]

Welcome, BigBlueSaw.

I think you will find lots of like minded folk here. I know several members that do CAD/CAM professionally and i'm one that does it as a hobby. You will also meet programmers, graphics artists, gamers, authors, and others that rely on a computer to do what they enjoy doing.

The best keyboard is a very personal thing and is a combination of layout, switch type, and features. It sounds like you have an idea about what layout you like best. Moving on to switch type - what types have you tried and what do you like?

[jacobolus]

Another question: can you guys waterjet a steel plate and then bend it to have a curved shape? I know there are people around here who would be interested in trying to make alternate-layout Model F keyboards, if the plates were available (some pictures of the internals at http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=5492.0).

[BigBlueSaw]

You could definitely build a Goldtouch-layout discrete-mechanical-switch keyboard without inordinately much trouble, if you can waterjet a 16 gauge steel plate, do some soldering to wire a diode/switch matrix on the back, and make some kind of case (using several layers of wood or acrylic is a popular DIY method, but there are a variety of possibilities). It would be a bunch of work, but a fun learning experience. :-)

I was thinking more of a 2 part keyboard, one half for each armrest on my chair. I was going to try to mod the Goldtouch to do that, but making the extension cable looked like more work than I wanted to do at the time.  Do you know of any good 2 part designs?

GH discount for plates? )

Funny you should ask! We're running a sale on 1/4 inch aluminum next week:
http://www.bigbluesaw.com/big-blue-saw-blog/general-updates/sale-on-aluminum-coming-up-july-7-9.html

One question: if geekhack folks wanted to do a “group buy” of 25 or 50 or 100 identical (or maybe a few different styles) switch plates, all mailed out separately to different addresses, what would the pricing be like for something like that? As far as I can tell, your typical orders have all the parts mailed to the same address.

I would definitely be amenable to that, BUT based on past experience I strongly suspect you'll find that it's hard to get 25 people to agree on one thing.

Anyway, the sale (http://www.bigbluesaw.com/big-blue-saw-blog/general-updates/sale-on-aluminum-coming-up-july-7-9.html) kind of works the same way, it gives you a quantity discount on a small order.  You can register for our mailing list to be notified of sales by clicking the "Find out more" button on the home page, then filling up the pop-up registration form.

[BigBlueSaw]

The best keyboard is a very personal thing and is a combination of layout, switch type, and features. It sounds like you have an idea about what layout you like best. Moving on to switch type - what types have you tried and what do you like?

I know the clicky types are very popular around here, and I'm old enough to have typed on real IBM keyboards from the 80's. The sound would drive me nuts though. I liked the action on my Microsoft Natural (original) keyboard better than on the Goldtouch. My Thinkpad feels pretty good too.

Another question: can you guys waterjet a steel plate and then bend it to have a curved shape? I know there are people around here who would be interested in trying to make alternate-layout Model F keyboards, if the plates were available (some pictures of the internals at http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=5492.0).

Getting an exact curve like that is tricky for a small run. I would suggest possibly using a material that is flexible but strong (like polycarbonate) and slotting it into some stiff side pieces to keep it under tension in the right shape.

[jacobolus]

Funny you should ask! We're running a sale on 1/4 inch aluminum next week:
http://www.bigbluesaw.com/big-blue-saw-blog/general-updates/sale-on-aluminum-coming-up-july-7-9.html

1/4 inch is way too thick for a switch plate, so unless you can machine that on a CNC mill, it’s not going to be the most useful.

A keyboard plate should be about 1.5mm thick, or maybe .06 inches. In steel, 16 gauge is good, or in Aluminum I think 15 gauge would work.

[jacobolus]

The best keyboard is a very personal thing and is a combination of layout, switch type, and features. It sounds like you have an idea about what layout you like best. Moving on to switch type - what types have you tried and what do you like?

I know the clicky types are very popular around here, and I'm old enough to have typed on real IBM keyboards from the 80's. The sound would drive me nuts though. I liked the action on my Microsoft Natural (original) keyboard better than on the Goldtouch. My Thinkpad feels pretty good too.

I recommend you try out Matias “quiet click” switches. They are quite tactile, but quieter than most other mechanical keyswitches.

[jacobolus]

One question: if geekhack folks wanted to do a “group buy” of 25 or 50 or 100 identical (or maybe a few different styles) switch plates, all mailed out separately to different addresses, what would the pricing be like for something like that? As far as I can tell, your typical orders have all the parts mailed to the same address.

I would definitely be amenable to that, BUT based on past experience I strongly suspect you'll find that it's hard to get 25 people to agree on one thing.

Anyway, the sale (http://www.bigbluesaw.com/big-blue-saw-blog/general-updates/sale-on-aluminum-coming-up-july-7-9.html) kind of works the same way, it gives you a quantity discount on a small order.  You can register for our mailing list to be notified of sales by clicking the "Find out more" button on the home page, then filling up the pop-up registration form.

Luckily there are enough people around here, that it’s sometimes possible to get 30 or 50 of them to agree on something. For instance, there was a recent very successful group buy of a custom set of keycaps recently that got up to 300+ orders.

It’s definitely possible for a community member here to organize a single big order and then re-ship out the parts to individual members, but that tends to cause a big hassle and delay for whoever is organizing things, and some group buys have their scheduled delivery dates slip by months. If you guys could handle the shipping it would make things much easier (but then you’d have to take on the hassle at your end).

[Melvang]

Awesome to have you here.  I am personally working on a project that involves bolting multiple plates together to eliminate any and all flex in the switch plate.  Details in the M-64 link in my signature.

Please refresh my memory but is ordering via your site done with your proprietary software or via submitting .dxf files?

Edit.  Just checked the site and I see user files can be submitted. 

Got a couple other questions.

Can you laser stainless up to 1/4"?

What tolerances can your shop hold with water jet/laser in ~.062" stainless and aluminim?

Can your shop water jet an already rolled piece of steel?  Possibly looking to have a stock IBM M plate water jet with cherry switch holes.  Specs on those are .551" +- .002" with max radius in the corners on .012".

[BigBlueSaw]

I recommend you try out Matias “quiet click” switches. They are quite tactile, but quieter than most other mechanical keyswitches.

Their "ergo pro" keyboard comes with these switches looks very interesting. Too bad it's not available yet.

[BigBlueSaw]

Awesome to have you here. 

(...)

Can you laser stainless up to 1/4"?

Great to be here.

Stainless steel we would waterjet cut.

What tolerances can your shop hold with water jet/laser in ~.062" stainless and aluminim?

The waterjet stream goes to within 0.005" of where it's supposed to be, but tolerances are a bit tricky. There's taper to worry about, as well as kerf, and the lead-in/lead out points, all of which can reduce accuracy in certain spots/dimensions.

Can your shop water jet an already rolled piece of steel?  Possibly looking to have a stock IBM M plate water jet with cherry switch holes.  Specs on those are .551" +- .002" with max radius in the corners on .012".

That's probably not practical for us to do. I did suggest earlier in this thread how it might be possible to create such a thing.

[jacobolus]

Can your shop water jet an already rolled piece of steel?  Possibly looking to have a stock IBM M plate water jet with cherry switch holes.  Specs on those are .551" +- .002" with max radius in the corners on .012".

That's probably not practical for us to do. I did suggest earlier in this thread how it might be possible to create such a thing.

You mean, using polycarbonate + side supports? I suspect that’s not going to be what Melvang is looking for.

[wcass]

Can your shop water jet an already rolled piece of steel?  Possibly looking to have a stock IBM M plate water jet with cherry switch holes.  Specs on those are .551" +- .002" with max radius in the corners on .012".

That's probably not practical for us to do. I did suggest earlier in this thread how it might be possible to create such a thing.

You mean, using polycarbonate + side supports? I suspect that’s not going to be what Melvang is looking for.

Many HVAC shops have a tool called a slip roller (or slip roll) that is made for putting a curve in sheet metal. I had a sheet of 18 gauge CRS laser cut and a local shop put the curve it it for me for free! It fits very nicely.

[runcom]

Just a dumb question (I'm not a cad/3d expert so don't blame me ), can I make custom keycaps on your website?

[BigBlueSaw]

It might be doable with some design work, but they wouldn't look like regular keycaps. This could be a good thing or a bad thing.

[BigBlueSaw]

Just a quick reminder to everyone. The sale is on now and runs through Wednesday.

Take a look at some of our sample parts to get an idea of how Big Blue Saw works:
https://www.bigbluesaw.com/big-blue-saw/big-blue-saw-info/how-big-blue-saw-works.html#sampleFile

[victor]

Thanks Simon for the offer here.

I'm a new comer to this keyboard forum and looks like there is much to learn. I'm recently considering a KBT Pure and am hoping to have nice metal base with a lower profile. Most of the available ones are $100+ which I can't afford, and I've missed the group buys that lowers the price for a good portion. It would be great if I can take advantage of this discount...

I wonder if there is anyone here looking for something similar? I don't have a design with me but I guess someone must have it?

-victor

[BigBlueSaw]

Victor:
What does it look like?

[victor]

Simon:

Something like this:
http://mechanicalkeyboards.com/shop/index.php?l=product_detail&p=631

The group buy that I was referring to:
http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=47776.0

I'm not sure how the end product looks like as the only photo I found was in the front page with all the caps removed.

I was also hoping they have some sort of spacer at the bottom so I can have a more inclined keyboard (the original one has only 4 pads on a flat bottom).

[BigBlueSaw]

Looks like that  case is milled or cast. It would need some re-design to work with waterjet cutting.

[victor]

Ah I see. Thanks for the pointers. Pardon me for my ignorance in how these are manufactured.

All the best to those who can take advantage of the offer then.

[BigBlueSaw]

Hey, just a heads up: we're having a sale on stainless steel and aluminum starting tomorrow (Wednesday):
http://www.bigbluesaw.com/big-blue-saw-blog/general-updates/stainless-steel-and-aluminum-savings-august-20-22.html



This is thinner material than on the last sale, so you may find it more useful for various keyboard parts.

[jacobolus]

What about 16 gauge steel? 10 gauge is still more than twice as thick as a keyboard plate needs to be.

[BigBlueSaw]

I'll put it on the list to consider for the next sale.

What are  your ideal materials & thicknesses?

[jacobolus]

The thickness should be about 1.5mm thick, regardless of material (any plate thinner than about 1.3mm gets a bit flimsy, and once a plate gets thicker than about 1.6mm it doesn’t properly clip switches in anymore; exactly the limit depends on the type of switch). Sometimes people get aluminum plates, because it’s cheap, but it’s not as stiff as most people here would prefer. Stainless steel is good, or sometimes people get fancy with titanium plates (stiff and sturdy but lightweight).

[BigBlueSaw]

Understood. I'll strongly take that into consideration.

[BigBlueSaw]

We've added a bunch of new thicknesses of stainless steel to the website. Read about it here:

http://www.bigbluesaw.com/big-blue-saw-blog/general-updates/7-new-thicknesses-of-stainless-steel-available.html

Keep in mind that there aren't a lot of standard materials made between 1.3 mm and 1.6 mm thickness. Your best bet is to either go with 0.06" thick material OR stack two layers together of thinner material.

The thickness should be about 1.5mm thick, regardless of material (any plate thinner than about 1.3mm gets a bit flimsy, and once a plate gets thicker than about 1.6mm it doesn’t properly clip switches in anymore; exactly the limit depends on the type of switch). Sometimes people get aluminum plates, because it’s cheap, but it’s not as stiff as most people here would prefer. Stainless steel is good, or sometimes people get fancy with titanium plates (stiff and sturdy but lightweight).

[AverageHybrid]

Hey man, I have posted my question along with my introductions in the new members section, would be cool if you checked that out.

[BigBlueSaw]

Sorry, I don't know much about switches. I'm more well versed in the mechanical aspects of designing and building things.

Hey man, I have posted my question along with my introductions in the new members section, would be cool if you checked that out.

[esoomenona]

Thanks for joining, and welcome to geekhack.

There is much to be said for a vendor who goes outside the box to interact with their prospective customers and to make an attempt to cater to/help them. Even if I never personally use your services or products, I know many here may, so I hope this: if your products/services and customer service deserve it, you see success here. Good luck!

[BigBlueSaw]

Thanks, esoomenona! Be sure to tell your friends about  us.

[BigBlueSaw]

We've got another sale coming up September 22-24, Monday through Wednesday.

At the suggestion of various keyboard aficionados, we're putting 0.06" stainless steel on sale. We've got 0.188 aluminum as part of this sale as well. Read more about it at http://www.bigbluesaw.com/big-blue-saw/big-blue-saw-special-info/save-on-aluminum-and-stainless-steel-september-22-24.html .

[BigBlueSaw]

It's the last day of the sale, so come to the website now, or you'll have missed out.

[BigBlueSaw]

We've got a sale going on now through Friday on waterjet cut aluminum 6061 parts.

This is a great time to get brackets, braces, and the like. Let me know via e-mail or in this thread if  you have any questions.

By the way, is this thread the appropriate place to put these announcements?

[CPTBadAss]

By the way, is this thread the appropriate place to put these announcements?

I don't think so. Typically there's not a lot of attention or traffic in the new members forum. I know I missed your previous updates. Perhaps you can PM a friendly moderator such as HoffmanMyster for some help in advertising your services .

[esoomenona]

.

[BigBlueSaw]

I've contacted a moderator, thanks.

No, I'm not going to post to every thread.

[BigBlueSaw]

I'm still not sure of the correct place to post.

Inspired by keyboard builders, we've created an article on making cases/enclosures using waterjet or laser cut parts:
http://www.bigbluesaw.com/big-blue-saw-blog/general-updates/creating-electronics-enclosures-with-laser-and-waterjet-cut-parts.html

In case you haven't noticed, we've also been working with swill on his keyboard and keyboard builder tool:
https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=65189