[IC] - Matias 60% ALPS keyboard with Cherry-compatible PCB

[Matias]

Yes, and stabilizer holes are for hooks to hold the stabilizer (Costar style).  Four holes are shown, to support separate stabilizers for ALPS and Cherry.

See below for more detail (ALPS only shown)...

Interesting. So I take it you’ll be selling the plastic stabilizer inserts/clips and bent wires compatible with MX-mount keycaps as well? Are you willing to sell just the stabilizer parts (both MX and Alps versions) in bulk, separately from this keyboard? And if so, how soon will those be ready for sale?

For ALPS, absolutely yes.  For Cherry, probably yes.

We're still working out the details for Cherry compatibility.  It's possible that we may be able to get a single stabilizer wire to work for both.  We need to build one and test it.  Should know fairly soon.

How well do they work compared to standard Alps stabilizers or standard Costar-style stabilizers?

Equally well.  They are the same spec.  Costar used to make our boards.

I ask partly because there are several types of Alps keycaps that use MX mounts for the stabilizer inserts. It looks like this might be the first keyboard compatible (by swapping out the stabilizer parts) with both those and standard Alps keycaps.

Yes, that's our goal with this.  Just gotta finish working out the ugly details.  :-)

[jacobolus]

One thing that bothers me a tiny bit about the stabilizer inserts the way you’ve pictured them: they look like they make stabilized keycaps a lot harder to remove from the keyboard than standard Alps stabilizer inserts, which are a full slot and so let the wire just slip right out.

[Matias]

One thing that bothers me a tiny bit about the stabilizer inserts the way you’ve pictured them: they look like they make stabilized keycaps a lot harder to remove from the keyboard than standard Alps stabilizer inserts, which are a full slot and so let the wire just slip right out.

That's true, but it's also more effective as a stabilizer -- since it provides 2 axes of stabilization vs. just the one provided by standard ALPS inserts.

[dante]

Matias, Per your comments on low profile I would like:

PC
ANSI
Full Cluster-Option A
Fully Assembled

I will take 1x Clicky and 1x Quiet.

[jacobolus]

That's true, but it's also more effective as a stabilizer -- since it provides 2 axes of stabilization vs. just the one provided by standard ALPS inserts.

Hm, I’m not sure I can agree with that. This stabilizer inserts, like the Alps inserts and Costar-style MX inserts and these ones you’ve designed, has a bit of space for the wire to move forward and backward, which is required because the wire is rotating not just moving straight up and down, so needs to move laterally. Thus, the amount of stabilization along that second axis is determined mostly by how tight the top and the bottom of the plastic slot is to the diameter of the wire. Whether the slot is open at the end or not is only relevant insofar as it prevents the plastic from bending, but in my experience the Alps inserts are rigid enough that that shouldn’t really make much difference.

So I’m skeptical that your version is more effective as a stabilizer (at least, not for that reason; maybe its other tolerances / material makes it more effective). On the other hand, if someone tries to pull the keycap off with excessive force, it’ll be less likely to break the insert, and a bit more likely to break the little clip that goes in the plate, I’m guessing.

[Matias]

That's true, but it's also more effective as a stabilizer -- since it provides 2 axes of stabilization vs. just the one provided by standard ALPS inserts.

Hm, I’m not sure I can agree with that. This stabilizer inserts, like the Alps inserts and Costar-style MX inserts and these ones you’ve designed, has a bit of space for the wire to move forward and backward, which is required because the wire is rotating not just moving straight up and down, so needs to move laterally. Thus, the amount of stabilization along that second axis is determined mostly by how tight the top and the bottom of the plastic slot is to the diameter of the wire. Whether the slot is open at the end or not is only relevant insofar as it prevents the plastic from bending, but in my experience the Alps inserts are rigid enough that that shouldn’t really make much difference.

So I’m skeptical that your version is more effective as a stabilizer (at least, not for that reason; maybe its other tolerances / material makes it more effective). On the other hand, if someone tries to pull the keycap off with excessive force, it’ll be less likely to break the insert, and a bit more likely to break the little clip that goes in the plate, I’m guessing.

Well, you could test your theory by cutting one and testing to see if it still works.  If it does, then the ALPS ones are just as good.  If it doesn't, then you know there's at least some measure of additional stabilization...

[Matias]

Matias, Per your comments on low profile I would like:

PC
ANSI
Full Cluster-Option A
Fully Assembled

I will take 1x Clicky and 1x Quiet.

Thanks, it's looking like PC users prefer Full-Cluster Option-A, and Mac users prefer Arrows-only Option-C.

[hjkl_over_wasd]

OK, I might change my mind again. Where will the navigation cluster keys be located on the FN layer on option B (PC)?

[Matias]

OK, I might change my mind again. Where will the navigation cluster keys be located on the FN layer on option B (PC)?

On the arrow keys...

      Fn Up   =   PgUp
      Fn Dn   =   PgDn
      Fn Left   =   Home
      Fn Right   =   End

[hjkl_over_wasd]

OK, I might change my mind again. Where will the navigation cluster keys be located on the FN layer on option B (PC)?

On the arrow keys...

      Fn Up   =   PgUp
      Fn Dn   =   PgDn
      Fn Left   =   Home
      Fn Right   =   End

OK, changed my mind. Going for Option B (PC).
EDIT: Modified my original "order".

[RED-404]

OK, I might change my mind again. Where will the navigation cluster keys be located on the FN layer on option B (PC)?

On the arrow keys...

      Fn Up   =   PgUp
      Fn Dn   =   PgDn
      Fn Left   =   Home
      Fn Right   =   End

OK, changed my mind. Going for Option B (PC).
EDIT: Modified my original "order".

Same order edited to Option B (PC) granted, I still like the look of Option A

BTW Matias that was your 666th post such a waste. 

[Adopta]

This sounds so awesome.

I would be interested in

option B
ISO layout
Quiet alps
Mac
Fully assembled

[dante]

Matias,

Interesting question (!)

From what I know you'll be coming out with a new Linear Alps switch soon (not sure if quiet or not).  Will it be ready by time these kits are ready to sell?  Or would you be open to making a small batch of those switches so folks can order it as an option -  test and give feedback?

If so I'd like to add a 3rd board to my order with this new switch - same specs.

[lhl]

I'm interested, is there an ETA on delivery?

Mac
Option A
ANSI
Quiet
Fully Assembled

Sounds like a lot of the layout options/concerns are being addressed, but having the mechanicals for replacing the controller for something fully programmable is a big plus!

[pasph]

interested in

option a
ISO layout
Clicky
PC
Fully assembled

[hjkl_over_wasd]

Matias, is it too late to suggest another dip switch functionality?

I really think this one feature would be great to have and it would certainly set your board apart from everything else. http://www.reddit.com/r/vim/comments/2dwvs5/little_script_to_remap_the_capslock_and_return/

It would make up for not having two ctrl keys on a cramped 60% board in an elegant way. I really hope you'll add it to the firmware as it will only require another dip switch. If you don't want to add another dip switch, could you at least add it in with the "caps-lock is ctrl" option? I mean, who spams the enter key anyways?

[Matias]

Matias, is it too late to suggest another dip switch functionality?

I really think this one feature would be great to have and it would certainly set your board apart from everything else. http://www.reddit.com/r/vim/comments/2dwvs5/little_script_to_remap_the_capslock_and_return/

It would make up for not having two ctrl keys on a cramped 60% board in an elegant way. I really hope you'll add it to the firmware as it will only require another dip switch. If you don't want to add another dip switch, could you at least add it in with the "caps-lock is ctrl" option? I mean, who spams the enter key anyways?

Interesting idea.  We can probably work it in.

BTW, we finished the mounting plate samples and the dual ALPS/Cherry switch mounting does indeed work!

The samples were a little thin though, so we're getting a second set made thicker.  Will post photos soon.

[vivalarevolución]

Matias, is it too late to suggest another dip switch functionality?

I really think this one feature would be great to have and it would certainly set your board apart from everything else. http://www.reddit.com/r/vim/comments/2dwvs5/little_script_to_remap_the_capslock_and_return/

It would make up for not having two ctrl keys on a cramped 60% board in an elegant way. I really hope you'll add it to the firmware as it will only require another dip switch. If you don't want to add another dip switch, could you at least add it in with the "caps-lock is ctrl" option? I mean, who spams the enter key anyways?

Interesting idea.  We can probably work it in.

BTW, we finished the mounting plate samples and the dual ALPS/Cherry switch mounting does indeed work!

The samples were a little thin though, so we're getting a second set made thicker.  Will post photos soon.

Who needs Cherry mounts?  ALPS/Matias all the way!

[jacobolus]

BTW, we finished the mounting plate samples and the dual ALPS/Cherry switch mounting does indeed work!

How stable are the switches, compared to mounting them in an Alps-only plate?

[Matias]

BTW, we finished the mounting plate samples and the dual ALPS/Cherry switch mounting does indeed work!

How stable are the switches, compared to mounting them in an Alps-only plate?

The thin plate we did is totally stable for Cherry, and stable for ALPS horizontally but not vertically.  It works, but you need to take more care centering the ALPS switches vertically.  That was with the thin plate only, and no PCB.

See attached drawing -- thin plate shown to the left of the switch...

You can see, the fin does not make contact with the thin plate on the left, so it doesn't force it into position.

To the right of the switch, you can see that thickening the plate should fix the problem...







Having said all that, when you add in the PCB, even the thin plate is stable.  The PCB fixes the vertical alignment problem, but I'd prefer that plate-only also be stable, so we're trying the thicker plate.  I'm 95% confident this will work.

[Matias]

I'm interested, is there an ETA on delivery?

      Mac
      Option A
      ANSI
      Quiet
      Fully Assembled

Sounds like a lot of the layout options/concerns are being addressed, but having the mechanicals for replacing the controller for something fully programmable is a big plus!

No ETA yet, but yes, we're trying to do this in the most flexible way possible -- to make it easy to hack the hardware and replace the controller.

We're also releasing the offiicial PCB and plate drawings, to serve as a reference design for others wanting to support both Cherry and ALPS.

Who needs Cherry mounts?  ALPS/Matias all the way!

Gotta say, I don't disagree...  :-) 

But it's a Cherry world out there, and we'll bring more people into the ALPS tent if we can leverage hybrid support.

[jacobolus]

The thin plate we did is totally stable for Cherry, and stable for ALPS horizontally but not vertically.  It works, but you need to take more care centering the ALPS switches vertically.  That was with the thin plate only, and no PCB.
See attached drawing -- thin plate shown to the left of the switch...
You can see, the fin does not make contact with the thin plate on the left, so it doesn't force it into position.
To the right of the switch, you can see that thickening the plate should fix the problem...

Hmm, I’m not sure that seems quite right: on a typical plate (~1.5mm) doesn’t the tip of the “fin” clip in below the plate, holding the switch in place? Seems to me like the extent to which the fin snaps in or not depends mostly on how wide the switch hole is, rather than how thick the plate is per se. With a thicker plate, the tip of the fin is prevented from opening back up below the plate, so the switch is being held in by friction from the side, rather than from below from the fin tip as these were originally designed to work.

I’ve found that very thick Alps plates, especially when the switch holes are tight, tend to break the little fins off much more easily than plates that are about 1.5mm thick (16 gauge steel?) with the proper width holes for the switches to nicely clip into.

In other words, the “thin” plate in your picture might be slightly too thin, but the “thick” plate looks quite a bit too thick to me.

[Matias]

The thin plate we did is totally stable for Cherry, and stable for ALPS horizontally but not vertically.  It works, but you need to take more care centering the ALPS switches vertically.  That was with the thin plate only, and no PCB.
See attached drawing -- thin plate shown to the left of the switch...
You can see, the fin does not make contact with the thin plate on the left, so it doesn't force it into position.
To the right of the switch, you can see that thickening the plate should fix the problem...

Hmm, I’m not sure that seems quite right: on a typical plate (~1.5mm) doesn’t the tip of the “fin” clip in below the plate, holding the switch in place? Seems to me like the extent to which the fin snaps in or not depends mostly on how wide the switch hole is, rather than how thick the plate is per se. With a thicker plate, the tip of the fin is prevented from opening back up below the plate, so the switch is being held in by friction from the side, rather than from below from the fin tip as these were originally designed to work.

I’ve found that very thick Alps plates, especially when the switch holes are tight, tend to break the little fins off much more easily than plates that are about 1.5mm thick (16 gauge steel?) with the proper width holes for the switches to nicely clip into.

In other words, the “thin” plate in your picture might be slightly too thin, but the “thick” plate looks quite a bit too thick to me.

I see your point...

Reducing the plate thickness to 1.5mm would probably work.

Another option would be to make the hole a little wider in the fin area.

In any case, we're getting the 2.1mm plate samples tomorrow, and will post the results...

[wupi]

Interested!!

- PC / ISO
- Full Nav Cluster (option A)
- Clicky ALPS
- Fully Assembled Keyboard

[Manchias]

I'm totally interested in this set great job

[Matias]

I really should be asleep right now, but I promised to post these, so here we go...

As you can see the hybrid ALPS-Cherry mounting plate + PCB actually works.  Blue is real Cherry.  Brown is fake (appropriately).

[Heliosphere]

I really should be asleep right now, but I promised to post these, so here we go...

As you can see the hybrid ALPS-Cherry mounting plate + PCB actually works.  Blue is real Cherry.  Brown is fake (appropriately).


(Attachment Link)



(Attachment Link)



(Attachment Link)



(Attachment Link)

Cool!

[geniekid]

Looks really good

[wetto]

I really should be asleep right now, but I promised to post these, so here we go...

As you can see the hybrid ALPS-Cherry mounting plate + PCB actually works.  Blue is real Cherry.  Brown is fake (appropriately).


(Attachment Link)

(Attachment Link)

(Attachment Link)

(Attachment Link)

I have the weirdest boner right now.

Seriously, that's gorgeous.

[hjkl_over_wasd]

Looks great.

This makes me look forward to seeing an assembled prototype.

[vivalarevolución]

I really should be asleep right now, but I promised to post these, so here we go...

As you can see the hybrid ALPS-Cherry mounting plate + PCB actually works.  Blue is real Cherry.  Brown is fake (appropriately).


(Attachment Link)



(Attachment Link)



(Attachment Link)



(Attachment Link)

Yummy.

[SpAmRaY]

I really should be asleep right now, but I promised to post these, so here we go...

As you can see the hybrid ALPS-Cherry mounting plate + PCB actually works.  Blue is real Cherry.  Brown is fake (appropriately).


(Attachment Link)



(Attachment Link)



(Attachment Link)



(Attachment Link)

Matias, what is the gray stem ALPS (Matis switch)? Is it just to differentiate between clicky and quiet?

[Heliosphere]

Hey Matias, any progress or changes you made so far? I also tried out the Matias tactile switches at Massdrop HQ for the first time and I LOVE them. If the quiet switches feel similar I will definitely choose those. Needless to say I really want to get my hands on your 60%!

[Oobly]

The thin plate we did is totally stable for Cherry, and stable for ALPS horizontally but not vertically.  It works, but you need to take more care centering the ALPS switches vertically.  That was with the thin plate only, and no PCB.
See attached drawing -- thin plate shown to the left of the switch...
You can see, the fin does not make contact with the thin plate on the left, so it doesn't force it into position.
To the right of the switch, you can see that thickening the plate should fix the problem...

Hmm, I’m not sure that seems quite right: on a typical plate (~1.5mm) doesn’t the tip of the “fin” clip in below the plate, holding the switch in place? Seems to me like the extent to which the fin snaps in or not depends mostly on how wide the switch hole is, rather than how thick the plate is per se. With a thicker plate, the tip of the fin is prevented from opening back up below the plate, so the switch is being held in by friction from the side, rather than from below from the fin tip as these were originally designed to work.

I’ve found that very thick Alps plates, especially when the switch holes are tight, tend to break the little fins off much more easily than plates that are about 1.5mm thick (16 gauge steel?) with the proper width holes for the switches to nicely clip into.

In other words, the “thin” plate in your picture might be slightly too thin, but the “thick” plate looks quite a bit too thick to me.

I see your point...

Reducing the plate thickness to 1.5mm would probably work.

Another option would be to make the hole a little wider in the fin area.

In any case, we're getting the 2.1mm plate samples tomorrow, and will post the results...

I believe the Alps SKCL/SKCM datasheet specifies a 1.2mm plate thickness, with 4.5mm between the top of the PCB and top of the plate. Cherry MX specifies 1.5mm plate and 5mm between the top of the PCB and top of the plate.

I think a plate thicker than 1.2mm won't allow the Alps tabs to pop out under the plate, whereas a plate thinner than 1.5mm won't lock a Cherry MX switch into place firmly. So it may be best to use a different plate for each type of switch, unless you use a 1.5mm plate and make the Alps switch holes just a touch wider to accomodate the tabs (they should be slightly compressed to locate the switch firmly, but not too much so that they break easily). Probably best to find the "sweet spot" by experiment by making a test plate of 1.5mm thickness and holes with different widths and see which width allows the switch to locate firmly without putting undue pressure on the tabs.

In terms of height, both switch types can live on the same plate / PCB if you allow the Alps switches to be 0.5mm off the surface of the PCB (the contact legs are long enough not to cause an issue).

[Matias]

Thanks for all the suggestions...

I fly back to Canada tomorrow, so will probably start the group buy soon after.  I think we've moved things far enough along that the basic concepts are nailed down.  Now we just need to execute.

Cherry and ALPS on the same board is certainly do-able -- though still some details to work out.

[dustinhxc]

Man I really want a 60% ALPS but why the huge spacebar.. Could have done the arrows like other 60% boards have done..

[Matias]

Man I really want a 60% ALPS but why the huge spacebar.. Could have done the arrows like other 60% boards have done..

Good news, you got your wish, courtesy of KBParadise -- ETA: September 26th - October 17th, 2014....   :-)


            http://geekhack.org/?topic=61966.0

            http://mechanicalkeyboards.com/shop/index.php?l=product_detail&p=987

            http://mechanicalkeyboards.com/shop/index.php?l=product_detail&p=988

            http://mechanicalkeyboards.com/incoming.php

[divito]

Just need a mini-tactile PC version.

[dustinhxc]

Man I really want a 60% ALPS but why the huge spacebar.. Could have done the arrows like other 60% boards have done..

Good news, you got your wish, courtesy of KBParadise -- ETA: September 26th - October 17th, 2014....   :-)


            http://geekhack.org/?topic=61966.0

            http://mechanicalkeyboards.com/shop/index.php?l=product_detail&p=987

            http://mechanicalkeyboards.com/shop/index.php?l=product_detail&p=988

            http://mechanicalkeyboards.com/incoming.php

 

WHOA! This is great.. Thank You! So any ALPS keysets work on your switches? Thanks!

[eli42291]

Man I really want a 60% ALPS but why the huge spacebar.. Could have done the arrows like other 60% boards have done..

Good news, you got your wish, courtesy of KBParadise -- ETA: September 26th - October 17th, 2014....   :-)


            http://geekhack.org/?topic=61966.0

            http://mechanicalkeyboards.com/shop/index.php?l=product_detail&p=987

            http://mechanicalkeyboards.com/shop/index.php?l=product_detail&p=988

            http://mechanicalkeyboards.com/incoming.php

So I'm just looking into buying my first mechanical keyboard. I'd like to get one pretty soon. This 60% keyboard looks great, but I'm not sure if you guys will be selling the pre-assembled version anytime soon. Will you be? Thanks!

[Hypersphere]

I just now discovered this. When is the ETA for the kit and pre-assembled versions? Prices?

I haven't read through the entire thread, but I am hoping for the possibility of a HHKB layout but with a choice of either clicky or silent Matias switches.

Edit:

Keycaps: Mac / ANSI

Nav Cluster: Option B (although would prefer HHKB layout with no dedicated arrow keys); would want to be able to remap the Delete key to Fn, and remap Fn to Control.

Switches: would like to try both clicky and quiet.

Assembly: first choice assembled, but might like to try the DIY kit.

My wish would be essentially a HHKB with Matias clicky or slient switches, but if this is not to be, I might try the Matias layout, as long as I could remap to a HHKB/Mac layout (swap Backspace and Backslash; reassign CapsLock as Control; put Fn to the right of Right Shift; bottom row = Control - Opt - Command - Space - Command - Opt - Control.

[sw]

I would like to purchase this keyboard with clicky Matias switches

Preferences:

Keycaps: Mac / ANSI
Nav Cluster: Option A
switches: Clicky Matias (ALPS-like) switches
Assembly: Pre-assembled

[dante]

I fly back to Canada tomorrow, so will probably start the group buy soon after.  I think we've moved things far enough along that the basic concepts are nailed down.  Now we just need to execute.

Soon?

[Tiramisuu]

I hate having choices

[Matt3o]

Man I really want a 60% ALPS but why the huge spacebar.. Could have done the arrows like other 60% boards have done..

Good news, you got your wish, courtesy of KBParadise -- ETA: September 26th - October 17th, 2014....   :-)


            http://geekhack.org/?topic=61966.0

            http://mechanicalkeyboards.com/shop/index.php?l=product_detail&p=987

            http://mechanicalkeyboards.com/shop/index.php?l=product_detail&p=988

            http://mechanicalkeyboards.com/incoming.php

 

WHOA! This is great.. Thank You! So any ALPS keysets work on your switches? Thanks!

the kbparadise has the worst FN layer ever conceived by human being... (PS: I have the MX version)

[Tiramisuu]

Worse than the poker?   Worse than the Manila?
Or worse than a ten keyless?

I've been trying to pick a 60% board all week and while they all have
compromises with the fn layers,  this one is a good price,  good basic key layout and excellent switches for my use cases (multiple office environments with managed environments that don't allow software installation,  home,  portable,   alternate key layouts (colemak),  document writing,  code and data readimg).

Personally I'd like fully programmable,  quiet,  Bluetooth,  rugged case with plate and a hhkb type 60% layout, Pbt keys caps without being $600 but the reality is that I can't get all the hardware a d software features without leaving boxes unchecked that I can currently find on the market.

This keyboard at this price with the Matias switches seems like a fairly decent place to buy in and solder in a teensy and Bluetooth module.   I'm all ears for the list of better 60% solutions if you have suggestions.   

[dante]

I'm all ears for the list of better 60% solutions if you have suggestions.

Get rid of predetermined layouts - or - those programmable on board.  Why not come up with a GUI utility that lets you code/share your own layout and upload it to your board?

[Matias]

Took a few days off after getting back from China, and am just now getting back into the swing of things...

I don't have a firm date on when the 60% will be available, but I have more time now and will be posting updates as things progress.

I spent a few hours today going over the switch drawings, to see how best to deal with the ALPS tabs inserted into a 1.5mm-thick mounting plate.

The Cherry spec calls for a 1.5mm plate, whereas the ALPS spec dictates a 1.0-1.2mm plate.  I want to try both again before making the final call.

On the current samples, the ALPS mounting holes are 15.5x12.8mm (the ALPS spec).  On the 1mm plate, this size was a little big along the 12.8mm axis.  On the 1.5mm and 2mm plates, the tabs bent inward.

For the 1.5mm plate, I'm going to try ALPS mounting holes in the range of 16.5-16.8mm by 12.2-12.5mm.

For the 1.0mm plate, ALPS mounting holes of 15.5mm by 12.2-12.5mm should tighten things up.

[jacobolus]

The Cherry spec calls for a 1.5mm plate, whereas the ALPS spec dictates a 1.0-1.2mm plate.  I want to try both again before making the final call.

Plenty of old Alps keyboards have 1.5mm thick plates. I think the size of the hole needs to be carefully matched to the thickness of the plate to make sure the switches clip in properly though, as you say.

[Matias]

The Cherry spec calls for a 1.5mm plate, whereas the ALPS spec dictates a 1.0-1.2mm plate.  I want to try both again before making the final call.

Plenty of old Alps keyboards have 1.5mm thick plates. I think the size of the hole needs to be carefully matched to the thickness of the plate to make sure the switches clip in properly though, as you say.

I also suspect that plenty of Cherry boards have 1mm thick plates -- though I haven't checked yet.

In either case, I'm sure I can get it to work...