[IC] - Matias 60% ALPS keyboard with Cherry-compatible PCB

[Norwegian]

I am definitely interested.

- PC
- ISO (Nordic. Yes I do like my ÆØÅ's...)
- Option A.
- Clicky ALPS
- Fully Assembled Keyboard


What color-scheme will the case/keys come in? Perhaps you've already answered, so sorry for missing it.

[RED-404]

I just wanted to check if you planned on a nice minimal keyboard case like what's in the mockup or where you going with one of your standard old iMac stile cases? Frankly, the main reasons I have never bought a Matias is simply the look of the case.

If you're doing a minimal case like a Poker, Tex or Hammer then I will buy it, I really like the layout and have no problem with the none standard size keys.

[hjkl_over_wasd]

Hi Matias. How's the project coming along?

I have one more question/request:

I have just gotten an HHKB and I'm faced with the choice of either changing my muscle memory to hit the key right above (ANSI) enter to do a backspace, or keep using what is common ANSI and have backspace at the top right.

In other words, I might have to remap my HHKB and stay with the common layout for the backspace key.

I do understand the rationale for having backspace right above the enter key on an ANSI layout, but this will completely mess up my muscle memory. The thing is that I already am used to having ctrl and esc as caps lock in a dual role setup, but in my opinion, this it completely worth having even though it completely deviates from the standard. Since I already am using an unconventional keyboard layout, I am doomed to never feel comfortable on a default keyboard layout anyways and will most likely have to bring a 60% wherever I have to work on a computer for more than half an hour.

Then it only boils down to one factor:

(TL;DR)
Will/can there be a DIP switch setting to toggle HHKB backspace positioning for the Matias 60% keyboard?

This would flip the positions of the '\|'-key and backspace.

[hjkl_over_wasd]

One more idea:

What about mapping shift+backspace to Del?

[Matias]

Note, PBT keycaps from the 80s / early 90s (including Apple’s) don’t really experience much yellowing, or benefit from retrobrite [the cases and ABS spacebars on the other hand...]. What they do get is dirty, so I’d recommend soaking them in denture cleaner or detergent, and maybe scrubbing the especially dirty ones a bit with a sponge.

Yes, that's true.  I've changed the link to something more appropriate.

What color-scheme will the case/keys come in? Perhaps you've already answered, so sorry for missing it.

Stock colour will be black, but we'll be selling white keycaps soon, and eventually other colours.

I just wanted to check if you planned on a nice minimal keyboard case like what's in the mockup

Yes, it will be minimalist, as shown in the drawings.  I'm leaving for China on Sunday and will be working on it while I'm there.

(TL;DR)
Will/can there be a DIP switch setting to toggle HHKB backspace positioning for the Matias 60% keyboard?

This would flip the positions of the '\|'-key and backspace.

Okay, will consider adding this.  Seems a little odd, though.

What about mapping shift+backspace to Del?

Better you remap that in the OS.  I'm sure some software will conflict if we do it in the keyboard.

[geniekid]

(TL;DR)
Will/can there be a DIP switch setting to toggle HHKB backspace positioning for the Matias 60% keyboard?

This would flip the positions of the '\|'-key and backspace.

Okay, will consider adding this.  Seems a little odd, though.

I found the HHKB layout allowed me to hit backspace without moving my right hand off the home row.  I can do this on a normal layout but I have to turn my arm.

[Matias]

(TL;DR)
Will/can there be a DIP switch setting to toggle HHKB backspace positioning for the Matias 60% keyboard?

This would flip the positions of the '\|'-key and backspace.

Okay, will consider adding this.  Seems a little odd, though.

I found the HHKB layout allowed me to hit backspace without moving my right hand off the home row.  I can do this on a normal layout but I have to turn my arm.

Are all HHKB set up this way?

[geniekid]

(TL;DR)
Will/can there be a DIP switch setting to toggle HHKB backspace positioning for the Matias 60% keyboard?

This would flip the positions of the '\|'-key and backspace.

Okay, will consider adding this.  Seems a little odd, though.

I found the HHKB layout allowed me to hit backspace without moving my right hand off the home row.  I can do this on a normal layout but I have to turn my arm.

Are all HHKB set up this way?

I don't know about the JP version, but I believe all Western versions are setup this way.  Actually, by default, the key in question is set to Del and Backspace is Fn+Del.  You can toggle a dip switch to make it Backspace (with Fn+Backspace=Del).

See this picture from EK:

[hjkl_over_wasd]

After I've been using my HHKB for a week or so, I've come to realize how important the design of the keyboard case really is. The thing that really ruins it for me when it comes to the HHKB is its case. I find that the keys are angled pretty steep by default and the board comes with legs that can tilt the angle even more.

Will the case for the Matias 60% have a flat angle and relatively low profile?

The TEX aluminum case is really nice. Completely flat angle and only 13mm tall.

[hjkl_over_wasd]

You mentioned something about a fiberglass plate. Will this be the default plate material, or will it be steel? If you're going for steel plates as the default, can we choose to get a spare fiberglass plate if we're part of the group buy?

[Matias]

I don't know about the JP version, but I believe all Western versions are setup this way.  Actually, by default, the key in question is set to Del and Backspace is Fn+Del.  You can toggle a dip switch to make it Backspace (with Fn+Backspace=Del).

See this picture from EK:

(Attachment Link)

Okay, thanks.

Seems like they designed it for a specific variety of Unix user.

You mentioned something about a fiberglass plate. Will this be the default plate material, or will it be steel? If you're going for steel plates as the default, can we choose to get a spare fiberglass plate if we're part of the group buy?

Our plan is to offer steel plates, unless the MOQ is not reached for a particular layout -- in which case we would offer a fiberglass plate for that layout. 

Of course, if you have a specific request for fiberglass, that's no problem.  MOQ for fiberglass is 1pc.

After I've been using my HHKB for a week or so, I've come to realize how important the design of the keyboard case really is. The thing that really ruins it for me when it comes to the HHKB is its case. I find that the keys are angled pretty steep by default and the board comes with legs that can tilt the angle even more.

Will the case for the Matias 60% have a flat angle and relatively low profile?

The TEX aluminum case is really nice. Completely flat angle and only 13mm tall.

Yes, it will be as low profile as we can make it, with a very slight slope.  See attached.

[ Note that I edited the image originally posted, to better reflect what it'll actually look like from the side. You'll see the green part. The grey foot mounts will be positioned further inward, and mostly obscured from view. ]

Was planning to include feet, unless there are strong objections.

[FuriousGeorge]

Are the arrow keys higher than the rest of the bottom row? I had seen the earlier pictures and I think I assumed that area was raised because it was using a different switch that was shorter and needed the extra height. I realize now that with the smaller size of the switches it's probably just a normal switch and it will actually end up being taller. I'd suspect it's to make the arrow keys easier to locate by touch, but with the blank spaces to the left and right of up arrow I would think it would already be easy to pick it up. It may be too late to change, but personally I'd prefer to have the bottom row a consistent height.

[hjkl_over_wasd]

You mentioned something about a fiberglass plate. Will this be the default plate material, or will it be steel? If you're going for steel plates as the default, can we choose to get a spare fiberglass plate if we're part of the group buy?

Our plan is to offer steel plates, unless the MOQ is not reached for a particular layout -- in which case we would offer a fiberglass plate for that layout. 

Of course, if you have a specific request for fiberglass, that's no problem.  MOQ for fiberglass is 1pc.

Great! My key mashing fingers don't like hard surfaces like steel.

After I've been using my HHKB for a week or so, I've come to realize how important the design of the keyboard case really is. The thing that really ruins it for me when it comes to the HHKB is its case. I find that the keys are angled pretty steep by default and the board comes with legs that can tilt the angle even more.

Will the case for the Matias 60% have a flat angle and relatively low profile?

The TEX aluminum case is really nice. Completely flat angle and only 13mm tall.

Yes, it will be as low profile as we can make it, with a very slight slope.  See attached.

[ Note that I edited the image originally posted, to better reflect what it'll actually look like from the side. You'll see the green part. The grey foot mounts will be positioned further inward, and mostly obscured from view. ]

Was planning to include feet, unless there are strong objections.


(Attachment Link)

My wrists really don't like any angles, so if it's possible to somehow have the sloped optional, I would be very greatful. Even though the angle doesn't seem incredibly steep, I am very worried about being barred from using a brilliant keyboard simply because of ergonomic reasons.

Could you please embellish on why you want the angled slope?

[AKmalamute]

a slight angle is what every one wants/expects, so it will be more marketable.

 Having said that, a few coworkers have their under-desk kbd tray set to invert the angle. Maybe for the GB, the same could be accomplished by having the case have a matching set of holes so the PCB can be reversed? Still a slight angle, but then the feet would be *toward* the user ... achieving hjkl's desires ... and no doubt a few others' as well.

[hjkl_over_wasd]

a slight angle is what every one wants/expects, so it will be more marketable.

 Having said that, a few coworkers have their under-desk kbd tray set to invert the angle. Maybe for the GB, the same could be accomplished by having the case have a matching set of holes so the PCB can be reversed? Still a slight angle, but then the feet would be *toward* the user ... achieving hjkl's desires ... and no doubt a few others' as well.

I definitely second this suggestion. Great idea.

[Matias]

Are the arrow keys higher than the rest of the bottom row? I had seen the earlier pictures and I think I assumed that area was raised because it was using a different switch that was shorter and needed the extra height. I realize now that with the smaller size of the switches it's probably just a normal switch and it will actually end up being taller. I'd suspect it's to make the arrow keys easier to locate by touch, but with the blank spaces to the left and right of up arrow I would think it would already be easy to pick it up. It may be too late to change, but personally I'd prefer to have the bottom row a consistent height.

You're mostly correct.  Long answer below...  (and see attached)

The switches are all the same over the entire keyboard.

The arrow keys use 0.75x1u keycaps. Because of the tighter spacing on the nearest & farthest sides, the keycap skirts are shorter -- which necessitates the case being a little higher there, to fill the gaps. Otherwise the switches would be exposed.

The farthest edge of the keycap is your point of reference for feeling where the arrow keys are. Because of the shorter skirts, that edge would not be high enough to feel -- so we fix it by using the row-4 keycap instead. It's just a little higher but easy to find by touch.

We actually did quite a lot of user testing on this. The R4 cap tested best for comfort and ease of acquisition.

Short answer...  It's designed correctly. You don't need to worry.

[Matias]

My wrists really don't like any angles, so if it's possible to somehow have the sloped optional, I would be very greatful. Even though the angle doesn't seem incredibly steep, I am very worried about being barred from using a brilliant keyboard simply because of ergonomic reasons.

Could you please embellish on why you want the angled slope?

The slight slope is there solely to accommodate thickness of the fold-out legs when they are folded in.  The only way to get rid of the slope is to get rid of the legs.

Also, most people expect a little bit of an angle.  If the desk is high, a little positive tilt helps your wrists accommodate that height.

If your desk is low (or has a keyboard tray that's lower), then flat or negative tilt is better.  The more high-end keyboard trays can be angled to eliminate the positive tilt of most keyboards.

a slight angle is what every one wants/expects, so it will be more marketable.

 Having said that, a few coworkers have their under-desk kbd tray set to invert the angle. Maybe for the GB, the same could be accomplished by having the case have a matching set of holes so the PCB can be reversed? Still a slight angle, but then the feet would be *toward* the user ... achieving hjkl's desires ... and no doubt a few others' as well.

I definitely second this suggestion. Great idea.

Unfortunately, that won't work with this design.  The case is not symmetrical, so you can't rotate the PCB.  See below for what I mean.

If you REALLY want it flat, then the only option would be to do a one-off CNC'd plastic one just for you, but that would cost several hundred dollars to do.

[FuriousGeorge]

Thanks Matias. Excellent explanation and illustrations as usual.

[jdcarpe]

Another vote for the ability to swap backspace into the position above the Enter key. HHKB has spoiled me to this, and it's available via a DIP switch setting on my KUL ES-87.

[mashby]

Another vote for the ability to swap backspace into the position above the Enter key. HHKB has spoiled me to this, and it's available via a DIP switch setting on my KUL ES-87.

Agreed. I've fallen prey to this same layout.

[Matias]

Another vote for the ability to swap backspace into the position above the Enter key. HHKB has spoiled me to this, and it's available via a DIP switch setting on my KUL ES-87.

Agreed. I've fallen prey to this same layout.

Okay, will add it.

At this rate, we're going to have more DIP switches than keys...   

[geniekid]

Another vote for the ability to swap backspace into the position above the Enter key. HHKB has spoiled me to this, and it's available via a DIP switch setting on my KUL ES-87.

Agreed. I've fallen prey to this same layout.

Okay, will add it.

At this rate, we're going to have more DIP switches than keys...   

I'm more or less vocalizing support for layout features that I enjoy.  In actuality, I would buy this no matter what tweaks were available.  My thinking goes like this - unless every single feature I want is supported, I'll still be trying to replace the controller with a fully programmable one.  Obviously I can't speak for anyone else, but the primary draw of this keyboard for me is the physical layout.

[jdcarpe]

At this rate, we're going to have more DIP switches than keys...   

[Matias]

At this rate, we're going to have more DIP switches than keys...   

Show Image

My god, I really hope that's a Photoshopped image...

[jdcarpe]

My god, I really hope that's a Photoshopped image...

Haha, yeah that's my terrible photoshop hack.

[Matias]

Another vote for the ability to swap backspace into the position above the Enter key. HHKB has spoiled me to this, and it's available via a DIP switch setting on my KUL ES-87.

Agreed. I've fallen prey to this same layout.

Okay, will add it.

At this rate, we're going to have more DIP switches than keys...   

I'm more or less vocalizing support for layout features that I enjoy.  In actuality, I would buy this no matter what tweaks were available.  My thinking goes like this - unless every single feature I want is supported, I'll still be trying to replace the controller with a fully programmable one.  Obviously I can't speak for anyone else, but the primary draw of this keyboard for me is the physical layout.

Okay, thanks.

And my goal with this project is to try to keep things basic as possible, but facilitate customization for people willing/able to do their own mods.  If enough people want something, I'll add it -- but I'm trying to avoid something that ends up looking like this...


http://simpsons.wikia.com/wiki/The_Homer

http://danicast83.wordpress.com/2013/09/16/the-homer

[FuriousGeorge]

It's just my opinion, but having multiple options for the function key is the most important thing for the dip switches to have since there's no way to change it in software. Other options are great and it's definitely more convenient to have them in hardware, but if it comes down to it, at least everything else can be reconfigured with something like autohotkey or registry changes.

[Matias]

Okay, I'm leaving for China in 4 hours, and will be working on the 60% keyboard while I'm there.  I should have a mockup done by the time I return.  Will post photos as soon as I have them.

Thanks to everyone for their feedback and suggestions...

[blackbox]

Cant wait to see the pictures!

[Belfong]

Sorry for being late but YES, definitely interested:
Mac and ANSI and Clicky switch!

Option C because you said that Fn and arrow keys are able to simulate Home, End, Page Up and Page Down (but I'm ok with B also)

And Fully Assembled please..

[hjkl_over_wasd]

Matias, please change my order to option C. I hope it's not too late to change the order. I have edited the post that contains my order.

[geniekid]

Matias, please change my order to option C. I hope it's not too late to change the order. I have edited the post that contains my order.

I think this project is still purely in the Interest Check phase.

[spiceBar]

At this rate, we're going to have more DIP switches than keys...   

Show Image

 LOL :)

User's manual

Volume 1/12: DIP switches 1 to 4 (324 pages)

[zxz]

Sounds interesting, will there be a usb hub like on the mini pro?

PC
ISO
Full Cluster-Option A
Quiet Switches
Fully built

[Nuum]

I'd be interested in:

Keycaps:
PC
ISO

Nav Cluster:
Option A

Switches:
Clicky ALPS

Pre-Assembled or Kit:
Both

And I would actually prefer it, if the spacebar would be centered on F and J.

[Matias]

Matias, please change my order to option C. I hope it's not too late to change the order. I have edited the post that contains my order.

I think this project is still purely in the Interest Check phase.

Yes, have not posted the GB yet, but hope to do that soon.

Sounds interesting, will there be a usb hub like on the mini pro?

No hub on this one, but you can certainly plug it into one.

[mkawa]

interested. this might be a really good board for my grandmother. she has small hands and a bad back. i think the wider spacebar and modifiers might really help her.

[luckynet]

so any new update?? imma presume matias is gonna settle the work on the matias ergo pro first before publishing a group buy for the 60% board?? anyone here preordered the ergo pro??

[Matias]

We'll be getting PCB and mounting plate samples for Option C in a few days.  If no problems, we'll then do Option A samples.  Probably will not start on the case drawing until after the GB is complete.

Been a little busy with the Ergo Pro and another project, but the 60% is still proceeding as planned.

[dante]

We'll be getting PCB and mounting plate samples for Option C in a few days.  If no problems, we'll then do Option A samples.  Probably will not start on the case drawing until after the GB is complete.

Been a little busy with the Ergo Pro and another project, but the 60% is still proceeding as planned.

Originally I was not interested in this, Matias.  However - I could regain interest if a certain criteria could be met...

Most of these mini keyboards are anywhere from 1.25"-1.6" thick.  I know you can get a wrist rest for more comfort - but some of us prefer to go without that for various personal reasons.

Is there anyway to make this much thinner than usual?  Say 1.00"-1.10" thick?  The upcoming Ducky Mini showcases this as a feature on theirs "The lowest we could possibly lower our switches."  Having a thinner keyboard could possibly wrangle in some additional purchases from folks who have shyed away from Mechanical Keyboards because it's like typing on a phone book (Blame Apple and their excellent Aluminum keyboards for this.)

[Matias]

We'll be getting PCB and mounting plate samples for Option C in a few days.  If no problems, we'll then do Option A samples.  Probably will not start on the case drawing until after the GB is complete.

Been a little busy with the Ergo Pro and another project, but the 60% is still proceeding as planned.

Originally I was not interested in this, Matias.  However - I could regain interest if a certain criteria could be met...

Most of these mini keyboards are anywhere from 1.25"-1.6" thick.  I know you can get a wrist rest for more comfort - but some of us prefer to go without that for various personal reasons.

Is there anyway to make this much thinner than usual?  Say 1.00"-1.10" thick?

It's already that thin now.  I just measured it...

Distance from the bottom of the case to the top of the Row1 keycap is 27.5mm or 1.08".

Having a thinner keyboard could possibly wrangle in some additional purchases from folks who have shyed away from Mechanical Keyboards because it's like typing on a phone book (Blame Apple and their excellent Aluminum keyboards for this.)

Yes, we're well aware of this.  Not everyone is into the classic styling + hubs.  That's why our 60% is going aggressively thinner and more minimalist, in size and styling.

[RED-404]

Yes, we're well aware of this.  Not everyone is into the classic styling + hubs.  That's why our 60% is going aggressively thinner and more minimalist, in size and styling.

Me reading this.   

[hjkl_over_wasd]

I agree with dante. It's easier to raise a keyboard than it is to lower it. It's like salt in food..

It's already that thin now.  I just measured it...

Distance from the bottom of the case to the top of the Row1 keycap is 27.5mm or 1.08".

What row is "Row1"? Space row, shift row, enter row, tab row, or number row? Can you please share the measurements for the tallest point of the keyboard and the lowest point of the keyboard?

Looking forward to seeing the group buy soon. Any idea of how much this will cost, or is this still too early to tell? Ballpark figure of course..

[Matias]

What row is "Row1"? Space row, shift row, enter row, tab row, or number row? Can you please share the measurements for the tallest point of the keyboard and the lowest point of the keyboard?

Looking forward to seeing the group buy soon. Any idea of how much this will cost, or is this still too early to tell? Ballpark figure of course..

Spacebar and Shift key rows are Row1 height = 27.5mm from keycap tip to bottom case.

Numbers/Backspace row is Row4 height = 28.5mm from keycap tip to bottom case.

The supports for foldout legs will protrude from the bottom about 8 or 9mm, in the two spots where the legs are.

It's too early to know the cost, but I'd guess in the $100 to $150 range, depending on how many people buy.

[Matias]

Further to my previous post, and to give you a better idea of how slim it will be, below is a screen snap of the mounting plate...

We're going right to the edge of what's possible.  You can see (especially near the Nav Cluster) that it's as slim as it can be.

[nuclearsandwich]

Further to my previous post, and to give you a better idea of how slim it will be, below is a screen snap of the mounting plate...

We're going right to the edge of what's possible.  You can see (especially near the Nav Cluster) that it's as slim as it can be.


(Attachment Link)

How is the plate going to be mounted? Or is this going to be a caseless bent stainless build?

[jacobolus]

Show Image

This is the plate for use with MX switches outside the bottom row? How do those stabilizer holes work?

[Matias]

Show Image

This is the plate for use with MX switches outside the bottom row? How do those stabilizer holes work?

Yes, and stabilizer holes are for hooks to hold the stabilizer (Costar style).  Four holes are shown, to support separate stabilizers for ALPS and Cherry.

See below for more detail (ALPS only shown)...

[Matias]

Further to my previous post, and to give you a better idea of how slim it will be, below is a screen snap of the mounting plate...

We're going right to the edge of what's possible.  You can see (especially near the Nav Cluster) that it's as slim as it can be.


(Attachment Link)

How is the plate going to be mounted? Or is this going to be a caseless bent stainless build?

It will sit on posts, and will be held in place by screws that screw into the bottom case.  See IC for case drawings...  http://matias.ca/60

[jacobolus]

Yes, and stabilizer holes are for hooks to hold the stabilizer (Costar style).  Four holes are shown, to support separate stabilizers for ALPS and Cherry.

See below for more detail (ALPS only shown)...

Interesting. So I take it you’ll be selling the plastic stabilizer inserts/clips and bent wires compatible with MX-mount keycaps as well? Are you willing to sell just the stabilizer parts (both MX and Alps versions) in bulk, separately from this keyboard? And if so, how soon will those be ready for sale?

How well do they work compared to standard Alps stabilizers or standard Costar-style stabilizers?

I ask partly because there are several types of Alps keycaps that use MX mounts for the stabilizer inserts. It looks like this might be the first keyboard compatible (by swapping out the stabilizer parts) with both those and standard Alps keycaps.