Ergo Wacom

[VimLover]

I'm a fresh graduate so I don't have any experience with wrist/hand issues, but many of the older programmers at my office do. I have read a few reviews of the Wacom Intuos Pen and Touch that state it is much more ergonomic than a mouse. I am left handed, so my choices for traditional ergonomic mice (mice in general) is limited. The idea of having the pen with application buttons and touch support is making me consider purchasing a Wacom and trying to make the switch from a Logitech M525 mouse (which is the best left handed compatible mouse I have been able to find).

Does anyone have any opinions or experiences on touchpads for ergonomics? Any comments on the idea of using an Intuos as a daily driver?

[hashbaz]

A lot of people I work with use a tablet instead of a mouse, due to RSI symptoms.  I asked one woman about it and she said she got used to it very quickly.  I think the main thing is that a pen exercises different muscles than a mouse, so it's an option for those who are already injured to continue working.  Not sure if it's fundamentally "better" for ergo (though I could be wrong).

Regardless, I think all the same principles apply.  Don't plant your wrist, keep it aligned with your forearm and move from the elbow or shoulder, avoid click-and-hold as much as possible.

[davkol]

I've recently read a few studies that concluded that pen-controlled graphic tablets were more ergonomic than mice. I think some of them are available through Google Scholar.

I've been using a Wacom tablet while taking notes for about five or six years. Certainly better than a pen&paper, especially for left-handed use, but as a pointing device? I'm not so sure. At least it keeps the wrist in a position that isn't flat... and more importantly, it always makes me rethink, whether I really want to grab it, or it isn't absolutely necessary.

[jacobolus]

I've recently read a few studies that concluded that pen-controlled graphic tablets were more ergonomic than mice. I think some of them are available through Google Scholar.

Links?

This is interesting http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/0378720694900140

Here’s one more focused on ergonomics http://www.emeraldinsight.com/journals.htm?articleid=1509291&show=abstract

[SonOfSonOfSpock]

I think a Wacom or similar tablet is more ergonomic than a normal mouse. It's so hard to say whether it is more ergonomic than well-designed ergonomic mice. There are left-handed ergonomic mice out there like the Evoluent and DXT mouse. I'm sure there are others, but off the top of my head that's the best I can do.

I like normal touchpads, but I'd personally not want to get a graphics tablet as a mouse replacement unless RSI pain required it. I'd find it the extra step of picking up the pen and grabbing it annoying. I guess if the pen somehow floated in the air I could like that.

[figit090]

I'm using the Pen and Touch Medium and I like it a lot.   I've had electromagnetic interference from some of my electronics that I've yet to fully track down but mostly I think it was my excessive LED lighting.  The nice thing though is you CAN use it as a giant touchpad and as a pen, in addition to a mouse.  I use it almost exclusively and my wrists feel a bit better although I'm trying really hard to fix my posture and use proper form, as well as often taking breaks and such.  I recommend trying a tablet, and getting a mouse like 3M's mouse:

http://www.amazon.com/3M-Ergonomic-Optical-Compatible-EM500GPL/dp/B00008KWWF/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1404784303&sr=8-1&keywords=mouse+3m

I used the small version, whichI found at a thrift store.  I like it, however I have somewhat large hands that require a larger mouse, so since the mouse was designed for small hands it didn't work.  I would probably enjoy the large model but because I work with photos a lot, my girlfriend got me a pen-and-touch and I like it.  I may have to choose some other options soon though, one is going to be a MIDI controller to help with my editing in lightroom.  that way I won't be penning for hours, or swiping/dragging for long periods.

I highly recommend and ergo keyboard (kinesis, or whichever you like, I use a classic/advantage) and learning to use multiple pointing devices as well as both hands for pointing if you can manage that.  Also, mice with a high degree of tilt to bring your palm perpendicular to the desk help, this helps your forearm straighten and reduce torsion on the bones, which ordinary mice cause.  I may get another 3m mouse someday, or something like this:

http://www.thehumansolution.com/evoluent-wireless-vertical-mouse-vm4w.html?utm_source=Google%2BShopping&utm_medium=cpc&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=Google%2BShopping&gdftrk=gdfV2929_a_7c132_a_7c5187_a_7cPRS110&gclid=CjwKEAjwiumdBRDZyvKvqb_6mkUSJABDyYOzRaINaStazTWi7-uOOwnNAXD5FAVJGT5Y_-7Kz0S5wxoCXPzw_wcB

I don't know anything about that seller but it had a picture of the evoluent, as well as a diagram of the bone structure showing how standard mice stress our skeletal structure.  that's why those ergo keyboards with adjustibility can raise up in the middle.

[tufty]

Been using tablets for years, mainly due to RSI issues.  They help, at least for me.

Some comments...

1 - Don't go too big.  A "medium" tablet is enough for day-to-day usage, bigger means more desk space and more arm movement.[1]
2 - Don't buy anything other than Wacom.  You really don't want one of those things with batteries in the pen.
3 - Set yourself up with an ergo keyboard at the same time
4 - The "penabled" sensors as used on "tablet" type PCs are nothing like as good as the intuos ones.

I don't have any experience with the pen & touch tablets, they could well be a good compromise

[1] That said, anyone want to buy a 12"x12" serial Intuos 1?

[islisis]

not strictly a left handed device but the penclic is a hybrid stylus-mouse. you can use it on any surface and you don't have to pick it up everytime you want to use it which is the big plus for me
http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=40776.0;nowap <- a few posts about it here

for left hand usage you would lose the thumb buttons and have a slightly awkward but reachable scroll wheel, but it's possible since the post can rotate.
without modding, the biggest disadvantages are the buttons' high force activiation and subpar placements. mod the primary click and you could use it all day. apparently a penclic 2 is in development.

[VimLover]

All this has been super helpful. Picking up the pen might definitely be problematic if I use it as the primary form of input. I have found that I spend about 85% of my time in Vim and the terminal, and then alternate for just a few seconds to a mouse to test a GUI element, so picking up the pen might reduce my productivity.  I  ordered the pen and touch small so I can use the touch option in the short burst instances.  I am seriously considering getting the bluetooth Evoluent as well.

[tp4tissue]

it' comes down to HOW you hold it..

just hold it slightly vertical.. and don't rotate you wrists deeply inwards to parallel the table.

the only case where this can't be done, is when someone has really small hands...  in which case.. get a smaller mouse


if it's a Shoulder issue... then make sure the mouse is level with your elbows.. and also that you're using a HIGH DPI 2700+, this way you don't need to lift your shoulders, and can just use your fingers to control the mouse..

with some practice.. you can do many things at 2700.. it only seems too slippery at first

[damorgue]

4 - The "penabled" sensors as used on "tablet" type PCs are nothing like as good as the intuos ones.

I don't have any experience with the pen & touch tablets, they could well be a good compromise

I have an Intous for design work at home and recently bought a laptop-fold-tablet-touch-pen device. I have no idea what to call them, but there are a few. Most use N-trig technology which have been significantly improved the last months but a few have licensed Wacom's technology. 2 months ago, I would have said go for one of the few with Wacom. Today I would recommend the n-trig ones too. When it comes to separate devices which you plug into a computer, I'd still stick with Wacom though. I can also second the motion of not going too big. I have the a4+ size Intous, and my natural drawing motion suits A5 more to be honest.

[tp4tissue]

4 - The "penabled" sensors as used on "tablet" type PCs are nothing like as good as the intuos ones.

I don't have any experience with the pen & touch tablets, they could well be a good compromise

I have an Intous for design work at home and recently bought a laptop-fold-tablet-touch-pen device. I have no idea what to call them, but there are a few. Most use N-trig technology which have been significantly improved the last months but a few have licensed Wacom's technology. 2 months ago, I would have said go for one of the few with Wacom. Today I would recommend the n-trig ones too. When it comes to separate devices which you plug into a computer, I'd still stick with Wacom though. I can also second the motion of not going too big. I have the a4+ size Intous, and my natural drawing motion suits A5 more to be honest.

one of my gdesign guys told me that for drawing, you should always go with a tablet pc, EVEN if it's smaller and less precise..

something about seeing your actions just makes the work flow smoother..

[Oobly]

4 - The "penabled" sensors as used on "tablet" type PCs are nothing like as good as the intuos ones.

I don't have any experience with the pen & touch tablets, they could well be a good compromise

I have an Intous for design work at home and recently bought a laptop-fold-tablet-touch-pen device. I have no idea what to call them, but there are a few. Most use N-trig technology which have been significantly improved the last months but a few have licensed Wacom's technology. 2 months ago, I would have said go for one of the few with Wacom. Today I would recommend the n-trig ones too. When it comes to separate devices which you plug into a computer, I'd still stick with Wacom though. I can also second the motion of not going too big. I have the a4+ size Intous, and my natural drawing motion suits A5 more to be honest.

one of my gdesign guys told me that for drawing, you should always go with a tablet pc, EVEN if it's smaller and less precise..

something about seeing your actions just makes the work flow smoother..

Y, but why compromise, just get a Cintiq.... 

I have a 12"x12" Intuos 2 and most of the time I use it I remap it with the drivers to about A5 size. Any bigger requires too much arm movement. That said, I hardly ever use it nowadays. I bought it to try it for CAD work (and for a DIY Cintiq project), but found a mouse and SpaceNavigator work better for the type of design I do.

It IS more ergonomic than most mice, but you can find good ergonomic left handed mice that would probably suit the tasks you use it for better. Perhaps something like this?

http://shop.goldtouch.com/collections/ergonomic-mice/products/goldtouch-usb-comfort-mouse-left-handed

<edit> Just realised it's only 1000 DPI, so it requires a relatively large amount of movement, not a great idea for a so-called "ergonomic" mouse, but I guess it's okay for many people. Seems most of these ergo mice are 800 to 1000 DPI only, perhaps they skimped on the sensors to keep the costs down (and make more profit off the people who need to use an ergonomic option - borderline vulture behaviour if you ask me). I don't like to use less than 1200 to 1600 DPI. Perhaps you could squeeze the internals from a decent mouse into there... The shape and angle of the housing look good to me.</edit>

[dorkvader]

4 - The "penabled" sensors as used on "tablet" type PCs are nothing like as good as the intuos ones.

I don't have any experience with the pen & touch tablets, they could well be a good compromise

I have an Intous for design work at home and recently bought a laptop-fold-tablet-touch-pen device. I have no idea what to call them, but there are a few. Most use N-trig technology which have been significantly improved the last months but a few have licensed Wacom's technology. 2 months ago, I would have said go for one of the few with Wacom. Today I would recommend the n-trig ones too. When it comes to separate devices which you plug into a computer, I'd still stick with Wacom though. I can also second the motion of not going too big. I have the a4+ size Intous, and my natural drawing motion suits A5 more to be honest.

I would not recommend n-trig.

when it works, it's great. however, they have lots of issues staying calibrated and many whole panels just fail without notice.

Lenovo, Fujitsu both use wacom digitizers in their convertible tablet computers and they are awesome.

[jacobolus]

http://shop.goldtouch.com/collections/ergonomic-mice/products/goldtouch-usb-comfort-mouse-left-handed

Just realised it's only 1000 DPI, so it requires a relatively large amount of movement, not a great idea for a so-called "ergonomic" mouse, but I guess it's okay for many people. Seems most of these ergo mice are 800 to 1000 DPI only, perhaps they skimped on the sensors to keep the costs down (and make more profit off the people who need to use an ergonomic option - borderline vulture behaviour if you ask me).

More realistically, they designed these several years ago, and haven’t bothered updating their internal electronics because it’s a niche market so (a) the folks buying these care more about the form factor than having the newest sensor, and (b) there’s not enough demand to pay back the up front costs to reengineer everything. 1000 DPI was top-of-the-line 8 years ago, and for just everyday computer use it’s more than enough.

It’s pretty ungenerous to assume they’re making decisions maliciously.

[VimLover]

I bought a Wacom Pen and Touch Small, and here is my report.

    First of all, the power cord is way too short, but luckily my work's help desk hooked me up with an extender. My first impression was a solid design, and a relief that I hadn't purchased anything bigger. This thing is the same size that you would expect from a stand alone touch pad mouse, but maybe slightly wider. Anything else would have just increased fatigue. I love that the pen has two buttons and the pad has four. That gives me plenty of places to map, and already makes the set up more efficient than a mouse (keep in mind my selection of mice is limited, I can't buy a mouse with twenty buttons).
    The pen takes some getting used to. Using your fingers to touch works exactly like any other touchpad, with similar mapping as a Macbook. It's great for quick adjustments while I'm coding. When I'm really using the GUI, however, I pick up the pen and it's great. It takes some getting used to, about a full day of programming plus a few hours of Rome 2 (playing strategy games with a pen is excellent). Once I mad the adjustment, it really is faster and more comfortable than a mouse. I still dislike using GUI's in general, but the Pen is so natural for a person to use.
   As an aside, the driver's on Windows are supposed to download automatically, after all, Wacom wrote and tested them. I had to go to the website and get the driver, and install in manually. I switched to Ubuntu, praying that the drivers would be an easy install, and wouldn't you know if the kernel already had some open source drivers ready to go for me. Ain't Linux great?
    The Wacom is, of course, a blast to use with Gimp, photoshop, blender, etc. I definitely give the thing my recommendation if you're looking for an alternative to a mouse, although I obviously cannot speak to whether the use of a pen or touchpad will save your wrists. Only time will tell.

   To give another wacky alternative to a mouse, I also own a leap motion plus. I keep it on the side of my desk, and when I'm on a web page I use my finger to go back and scroll up and down. I definitely don't recommend switching a mouse out for one, they have terrible accuracy for on screen clicking and pointing, but mapping general hand movements to one can allow you to go literally hands frees. What's more ergonomic than that?

[tufty]

one of my gdesign guys told me that for drawing, you should always go with a tablet pc, EVEN if it's smaller and less precise..

something about seeing your actions just makes the work flow smoother..

Sack your graphic design guy.  The penabled sensors are half as precise (no big deal, really), have half as many pressure levels (slightly more of an issue), and have no tilt or rotation detection (big deal for drawing, and maybe even for other tablet tasks).  They're **** for doing serious drawing on.  Plus they aren't multiplatform, and don't go up to humungous sizes.

For "Art" work, you get a cintiq.  Older models are relatively cheap now, and even a modern one (for example a 13HD) isn't going to be more expensive than a decent tablet pc with a similar screen.

[jacobolus]

one of my gdesign guys told me that for drawing, you should always go with a tablet pc, EVEN if it's smaller and less precise..

something about seeing your actions just makes the work flow smoother..

Sack your graphic design guy.

I’m guessing his “gdesign guys” meant get a tablet that has a screen (as e.g. either a tablet PC or a Cintiq has), instead of getting one without a screen (e.g. an Intuos). That advice doesn’t sound too unreasonable to me.

[figit090]

I want to mention that if you want 1:1 mapping for uniformity in horizontal and vertical movement (forcing proportions to match the active area of the tablet to the screen aspect ratio/size), consider that a medium tablet will be better suited for dual-screen applications or extra wide applications.  A small tablet would possibly be inconveniently thin in width, so you must consider your specific needs.  If you've used tablets before and don't mind a wide-aspect desktop being mapped on a tablet that's got a taller aspect ratio, no biggie.  OF if you want to use a hotkey on the tablet to switch programs, or screens, no biggie.  For my double 21.5" monitor setup, the medium tablet mapped to 1:1 (forced proportions) gives my hand a nice area to slide on, roughly half of the tablet.  Then, a half of that half (1/4 of the tablet) is one screen, like this:



For example of a 21.5" 1920x1080 resolution monitor mapped 1:1 (force proportions on) on the medium tablet here's another screenshot from my wacom:


Please note that the pen-and-touch model does not have any considerable wrist rest like the high level wacom tablets, so you may want to devise one of your own if you will be penning a lot near the base and need your palm to drag.  I personally write and pen with my hand lightly on the surface so when I used the whole tablet, I had to devise a stack of cut paper to be in front of the tablet and just as thick, to create a border for my palm to rest on.  Now that I map 1:1 I no longer need that because I only use half of my tablet.

If you have one screen you'll use anywhere from 2/3 to most of the tablet, depending on the ratio, and should have a decent space to rest your hand.

For further reference of how mapping works, this is both of my monitors with "forced proportions" turned off.  As you can see, horizontal movement would be greatly exaggerated, and vertical movement comparably slow and cumbersome, spanning the entire height of the available active surface.  This will likely cause an incongruity with your hand-eye coordination that I would not recommend based on common sense, especially if you intend to use a mouse (which uses equal horizontal and vertical proportional movement) in tandem with this setup.  Also, you will calibrate your muscle coordination to want to move oddly when drawing on ordinary paper, lol.  Imagine having to draw an oval to get a circle, by habit!  Yikes!