O-rings with cherry profile

[asgeirtj]

I'm currently using these caps:

http://www.originativeco.com/collections/keysets/products/bsp-classic-beige

At work, I need to use o-rings.  But I find that with such low profile keys the travel distance becomes too short.

I'm using these o-rings, they are 1.5mm apx thick, 40 shore (standard hardness), and are made from silicone.

http://www.keyboardco.com/product/o-ring-switch-dampeners-for-filco-keyboards.asp

So my question is: Does there exist thinner o-rings? Also: Has anyone experienced the same with cherry profile + o-rings or is my preference weird?

I gather that these, the small kind, are 1.45mm but I'm skeptical that 0.05mm will change much.

http://imsto.cn/index.php?route=product/product&path=61&product_id=78

[JPG]

I tried some O-rings with my cherry keycaps and while functional, I now prefer them without the O-rings. There's a little difference in noise, so if you NEED it keep them, but if the noise is not so bad just remove them. When I first took my filco (brown) to the job my boss asked me to make it more quiet so after a while I added O-rings. But people got used to it and I now use a model F and trust me, the noise from this keyboard is on another level!

[pr0ximity]

You might look into dental bands. They're much softer, but very thin. I've been meaning to try them myself, as my current red WASD o-rings are a bit too thick for my liking. I also like dat clack.

[IvanIvanovich]

You could try these, they are bit harder... might get a better price elsewhere but I don't feel like hunting.

[Polymer]

WASD thin o-rings work great..the normal ones reduce travel a bit too much..

[TotalChaos]

I'm currently using these caps:

http://www.originativeco.com/collections/keysets/products/bsp-classic-beige

At work, I need to use o-rings.  But I find that with such low profile keys the travel distance becomes too short.

Don't use low-profile keys.

Use proper "OEM Height" keycaps and everything will work the way it is supposed to.

[Doesntknowwhattosay]

I'm currently using these caps:

http://www.originativeco.com/collections/keysets/products/bsp-classic-beige

At work, I need to use o-rings.  But I find that with such low profile keys the travel distance becomes too short.

Don't use low-profile keys.

Use proper "OEM Height" keycaps and everything will work the way it is supposed to.

Cherry keycaps may look like short profile, but they actually have the same travel distance as any other profile.

[swill]

I'm currently using these caps:

http://www.originativeco.com/collections/keysets/products/bsp-classic-beige

At work, I need to use o-rings.  But I find that with such low profile keys the travel distance becomes too short.

Don't use low-profile keys.

Use proper "OEM Height" keycaps and everything will work the way it is supposed to.

Cherry keycaps may look like short profile, but they actually have the same travel distance as any other profile.

You need smaller orings with cherry profile than you do with OEM. You are correct that without orings cherry and OEM have the same travel distance (4mm), but say you want a travel distance of 3.5mm, you would need to use different orings with cherry and oem to achieve that.

[TotalChaos]

Cherry keycaps may look like short profile, but they actually have the same travel distance as any other profile.

They only have the same travel distance if you forget to install padding under the keycaps.  With padding installed, the travel gets reduced with "Cherry-Profile" keycaps.

With "OEM profile", you can install soft Ergonomic shock absorbers and still get full travel distance.

[davkol]

Total chaos indeed. If you want to absorb anything, you *have to* reduce travel.

Thin dampeners are okay on keycaps with crossbars.

[swill]

I did a whole bunch of measurements and testing for this. I think Cpt'n linked my posts in the simple Q and A OP, if not I can find and link it if people are interested.

[Findecanor]

I use 3/16" medium orthodontic rubber bands with Cherry profile. They are perfect for Cherry profile, too thin for OEM profile.

Cherry keycaps may look like short profile, but they actually have the same travel distance as any other profile.

The travel distance without O-rings is always 4 mm with or without keycaps. When you bottom out, the slider hits the bottom of the switch housing, and there is still a gap between the top of the switch and the struts inside the keycap. The size of this gap is different between different types of keys, but always large enough so that the keycap never touches the switch's top housing.
When you install O-rings, you put them inside that gap and only then does the size of the gap affect the travel distance. Some keycaps, like SP's DCS profile do not even have any struts so they don't work with O-rings, and you would instead have to do the "trampoline mod" with the switches themselves to get dampening.

[Lpwl]

[...]

When you are saying : "SP's DCS profile do not even have any struts so they don't work with O-rings".

Do you mean that SP keycaps do not have any crossbar :



If so, why a big O-ring would not do the same job than a thinner O-ring + crossbar ?

[asgeirtj]

[...]

When you are saying : "SP's DCS profile do not even have any struts so they don't work with O-rings".

Do you mean that SP keycaps do not have any crossbar :

Show Image

If so, why a big O-ring would not do the same job than a thinner O-ring + crossbar ?

Because, if I'm not mistaken, the reason for having crossbar is so that the distance between the o-ring and the top of the key will be the same.  Because different rows have different profiles the crossbar varies in size.  Hence, using o-rings without crossbars is troublesome because the effect will be different across different rows.

[Lpwl]

[...]

When you are saying : "SP's DCS profile do not even have any struts so they don't work with O-rings".

Do you mean that SP keycaps do not have any crossbar :

Show Image

If so, why a big O-ring would not do the same job than a thinner O-ring + crossbar ?

Because, if I'm not mistaken, the reason for having crossbar is so that the distance between the o-ring and the top of the key will be the same.  Because different rows have different profiles the crossbar varies in size.  Hence, using o-rings without crossbars is troublesome because the effect will be different across different rows.

You are right - I was looking at the DCS keycap and thinking about the DSA  :confused:

Thank you for clearing up the matter !

[asgeirtj]

WASD thin o-rings work great..the normal ones reduce travel a bit too much..

wtf?

You could try these, they are bit harder... might get a better price elsewhere but I don't feel like hunting.

Thx, however I wonder if 1mm will even be thick enough to silence the clack?  The only other ones this site sells which is also 5mm length are 1,2mm but a full set of them cost about 40$ fml

http://www.theoringstore.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=368_12_603&products_id=19140

If no one has any feedback on this I guess I'll try the 1mm ones, full set, and grab standalone 1,2mm with it to check them out. 

I use 3/16" medium orthodontic rubber bands with Cherry profile. They are perfect for Cherry profile, too thin for OEM profile.

Cherry keycaps may look like short profile, but they actually have the same travel distance as any other profile.

The travel distance without O-rings is always 4 mm with or without keycaps. When you bottom out, the slider hits the bottom of the switch housing, and there is still a gap between the top of the switch and the struts inside the keycap. The size of this gap is different between different types of keys, but always large enough so that the keycap never touches the switch's top housing.
When you install O-rings, you put them inside that gap and only then does the size of the gap affect the travel distance. Some keycaps, like SP's DCS profile do not even have any struts so they don't work with O-rings, and you would instead have to do the "trampoline mod" with the switches themselves to get dampening.

Are these something like that?:

http://www.amazon.com/Clear-16-4-5-Oz-Orthodontic/dp/B00A2YCR5K

Too bad they don't disclose the thickness of them.

[swill]

Just buy the Small o-rings from IMSTO and be done with it. They work perfectly on cherry profile. I use them all the time. 

[asgeirtj]

Just buy the Small o-rings from IMSTO and be done with it. They work perfectly on cherry profile. I use them all the time.

Just to be sure, you're saying that 0,05mm will make a difference?

[swill]

Just buy the Small o-rings from IMSTO and be done with it. They work perfectly on cherry profile. I use them all the time.

Just to be sure, you're saying that 0,05mm will make a difference?

Not sure what the 0.05mm reference is about.

I have measured the IMSTO Small o-rings to be 1.45mm and I have measured the travel reduction to be 0.5mm with the result of 3.5mm travel distance.

[asgeirtj]

I'm using these o-rings, they are 1.5mm apx thick.

1.5mm vs 1.45mm 0.05mm difference.

http://www.keyboardco.com/product/o-ring-switch-dampeners-for-filco-keyboards.asp

[swill]

I'm using these o-rings, they are 1.5mm apx thick.

1.5mm vs 1.45mm 0.05mm difference.

http://www.keyboardco.com/product/o-ring-switch-dampeners-for-filco-keyboards.asp

Tolerance when measuring is about +/- 0.1mm, so they are the same size. The o-ring squashes a tiny bit when you bring the caliper together on them, so that could account for a 0.05mm difference. 

[asgeirtj]

Here is a picture of a standard oem filco keycap with the red o-ring and the bsp one with it.  I hope it is apparent from the picture that the travel distance on the bsp one is a lot smaller than the oem one and that the bsp travel is pretty short overall!  I'm baffled that so few have the same problem as me with the cherry profile (bear in mind that without the o-rings, I find the travel distance too long), the travel distance with the oem size keycap and the red o-ring is perfect imo.  Swill, on a old post of yours here: http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=53174.msg1186392.msg#1186392 , you said that when using OEM keycaps you recommend an o-ring which is ~1.75mm, ~3.5mm of travel. I don't understand that because I find that this 1.5mm one is perfect   Since Imsto's are apparently identical to my 1.5mm o-rings i will need to look further.

Regarding dental bands,  Are they harder than the "red type wasd" which seems to be the standard for soft o-rings? That would be worse since i dislike hard o-rings, i like the soft cushioning of soft o-rings better, and the hardness make the travel distance shortening feel more severe imo. 

[swill]

Here is a picture of a standard oem filco keycap with the red o-ring and the bsp one with it.  I hope it is apparent from the picture that the travel distance on the bsp one is a lot smaller than the oem one and that the bsp travel is pretty short overall!  I'm baffled that so few have the same problem as me with the cherry profile (bear in mind that without the o-rings, I find the travel distance too long), the travel distance with the oem size keycap and the red o-ring is perfect imo.  Swill, on a old post of yours here: http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=53174.msg1186392.msg#1186392 , you said that when using OEM keycaps you recommend an o-ring which is ~1.75mm, ~3.5mm of travel. I don't understand that because I find that this 1.5mm one is perfect   Since Imsto's are apparently identical to my 1.5mm o-rings i will need to look further.

Regarding dental bands,  Are they harder than the "red type wasd" which seems to be the standard for soft o-rings? That would be worse since i dislike hard o-rings, i like the soft cushioning of soft o-rings better, and the hardness make the travel distance shortening feel more severe imo.

The 'red o-rings' I am referring to in my post are IMSTO 'small' o-rings there are many sizes of red o-rings is not a good way to identify o-rings.

Another point is that every person will like something a bit different, it is personal taste. For me, I like to reduce the 4mm travel to about 3.5mm. For my cherry profile thick PBT caps, that was a 1.45mm o-ring. To get the same 3.5mm travel distance I like with OEM caps, I had to use 1.75mm o-rings.

A 1.45mm o-ring on OEM caps barely changed the travel distance at all. It reduced the travel distance by 0.05mm. Keep in mind that the tolerance for measuring o-rings is about +/- 0.1mm given their tendency deform when measured.

[swill]

Here is a picture of a standard oem filco keycap with the red o-ring and the bsp one with it.  I hope it is apparent from the picture that the travel distance on the bsp one is a lot smaller than the oem one and that the bsp travel is pretty short overall!  I'm baffled that so few have the same problem as me with the cherry profile (bear in mind that without the o-rings, I find the travel distance too long), the travel distance with the oem size keycap and the red o-ring is perfect imo.  Swill, on a old post of yours here: http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=53174.msg1186392.msg#1186392 , you said that when using OEM keycaps you recommend an o-ring which is ~1.75mm, ~3.5mm of travel. I don't understand that because I find that this 1.5mm one is perfect   Since Imsto's are apparently identical to my 1.5mm o-rings i will need to look further.

Regarding dental bands,  Are they harder than the "red type wasd" which seems to be the standard for soft o-rings? That would be worse since i dislike hard o-rings, i like the soft cushioning of soft o-rings better, and the hardness make the travel distance shortening feel more severe imo.

The 'red o-rings' I am referring to in my post are IMSTO 'small' o-rings there are many sizes of red o-rings, so this is not a good way to identify o-rings sizes. 

Another point to make is every person will like something a bit different, it is personal taste. For me, I like to reduce the 4mm travel to about 3.5mm. For my cherry profile thick PBT caps, that was a 1.45mm o-ring. To get the same 3.5mm travel distance I like with OEM caps, I had to use 1.75mm o-rings.

A 1.45mm o-ring on OEM caps barely changed the travel distance at all. It reduced the travel distance by 0.05mm. Keep in mind that the tolerance for measuring o-rings is about +/- 0.1mm given their tendency deform when measured.

[Oobly]

Just buy some of these from IMSTO and put them in the switches: http://imsto.cn/index.php?route=product/product&path=61&product_id=88

Don't need to play with orings any more. They feel better, too.

[swill]

Just buy some of these from IMSTO and put them in the switches: http://imsto.cn/index.php?route=product/product&path=61&product_id=88

Don't need to play with orings any more. They feel better, too.

Ya, I have a whole bunch of those coming so I can test.

Even with those, it will be perfect for some and not to others taste, so they probably will not completely replace orings.

[Oobly]

Just buy some of these from IMSTO and put them in the switches: http://imsto.cn/index.php?route=product/product&path=61&product_id=88

Don't need to play with orings any more. They feel better, too.

Ya, I have a whole bunch of those coming so I can test.

Even with those, it will be perfect for some and not to others taste, so they probably will not completely replace orings.

That's true.. I guess I should have rather said "they feel better to me / suit me more".

[swill]

Just buy some of these from IMSTO and put them in the switches: http://imsto.cn/index.php?route=product/product&path=61&product_id=88

Don't need to play with orings any more. They feel better, too.

Ya, I have a whole bunch of those coming so I can test.

Even with those, it will be perfect for some and not to others taste, so they probably will not completely replace orings.

That's true.. I guess I should have rather said "they feel better to me / suit me more".

. Where did you get yours from?

[Oobly]

Bought them from IMSTO. Got a nice aluminium plate for my Pure at the same time

I bought 7 bags (around 200 in each bag), so I have enough for quite a few boards!

After using them for a while I think I prefer them to the rubber sheet "trampolines" I made. I kind of like the oring pieces (cut from red orings and popped into the tubes) even more, but they're not as consistent as using these balls. what I like about this mod is that you can tailor it to your own tastes (by using longer or shorter, softer or harder pieces of rubber). The balls work well as a drop-in solution. They damp the bottom out sound and shock well. I think they feel the most like orings (OEM medium PBT caps with red orings) of the three types I have tried, but not quite the same.

I definitely prefer them to orings in terms of feeling and it's nice not to have to fiddle with orings when changing caps, especially when installing DCS profile caps.

[asgeirtj]

Bought them from IMSTO. Got a nice aluminium plate for my Pure at the same time

I bought 7 bags (around 200 in each bag), so I have enough for quite a few boards!

After using them for a while I think I prefer them to the rubber sheet "trampolines" I made. I kind of like the oring pieces (cut from red orings and popped into the tubes) even more, but they're not as consistent as using these balls. what I like about this mod is that you can tailor it to your own tastes (by using longer or shorter, softer or harder pieces of rubber). The balls work well as a drop-in solution. They damp the bottom out sound and shock well. I think they feel the most like orings (OEM medium PBT caps with red orings) of the three types I have tried, but not quite the same.

I definitely prefer them to orings in terms of feeling and it's nice not to have to fiddle with orings when changing caps, especially when installing DCS profile caps.

Do they shorten the travel distance?

[Oobly]

Bought them from IMSTO. Got a nice aluminium plate for my Pure at the same time

I bought 7 bags (around 200 in each bag), so I have enough for quite a few boards!

After using them for a while I think I prefer them to the rubber sheet "trampolines" I made. I kind of like the oring pieces (cut from red orings and popped into the tubes) even more, but they're not as consistent as using these balls. what I like about this mod is that you can tailor it to your own tastes (by using longer or shorter, softer or harder pieces of rubber). The balls work well as a drop-in solution. They damp the bottom out sound and shock well. I think they feel the most like orings (OEM medium PBT caps with red orings) of the three types I have tried, but not quite the same.

I definitely prefer them to orings in terms of feeling and it's nice not to have to fiddle with orings when changing caps, especially when installing DCS profile caps.

Do they shorten the travel distance?

The stem touches them about 1mm from the bottom and the pressure increases until "bottom out". I would say you lose about 0.2mm to 0.4mm travel distance in total depending on how hard you press when bottoming out.

If you use cut pieces of oring you can adjust the progressiveness and bottom-out position by changing the thickness, softness and length of the piece you use.

[asgeirtj]

OK so update guys

I bought LIGHT dental bands

http://www.ebay.com/itm/141017868922

and they were PERFECT for what i was looking for.  I also bought the MEDIUM dental bands which somebody recommended and they were the same as the 1.5mm o-rings.  I also bought 1mm and 1.2mm o-rigns from the o-rings store and found out that 1mm are ineffective (you still bottom out) while the 1.2mm feel the same as the light dental bands so I reckon the light dental bands are around that width.  With the light dental bands with cherry keys the effect on travel is not much, just a tad, which is perfect for me.  I really don't understand how anyone of you can use 1.5mm o-rings with cherry profile since the travel shortening is so severe imo. 

[intelli78]

Thanks for the link. I just ordered some, will be interested to see how these work with Cherry profile caps.

[neverlast74]

one question regarding the IMST silicon balls: I have silicon made o-rings and after 2 years they have cracks and slowly fall apart. maybe they get too try while being pressed. how knows...

So you think this could happened to the IMST balls as well? or are they made out of a indestructible silicon?