How are cherry clones coming along?

[smolid]

I've seen some cheap keyboards using kailh/gaote on sale on chinese websites and read the thread which listed keyboards using kailh switches.

How well do the switches hold up generally. I've seen the pic of the yellow one snapping off but now there are newer blue/brown/black clones from kailh. The noppoo lolita looks tempting for the price.

Or should I get a Ducky alps 1087 instead?

[CPTBadAss]

I'm currently test driving a Keycool K5 with Kalih clones of the MX Blues. I'll be putting out a review soon. They're actually not as bad as I originally thought.

DON'T get the Ducky 1087XM. I think it's the worst keyboard I've ever bought.

[dorkvader]

The alps ducky wasn't that bad, it just had some very rattly stabilizers. I got to try one with matrias switches transplanted in it and it wasn't bad.

I do know that Kailh want to be a better switch manufacturer, so it's entirely possible that they will become even better in the future.

[CPTBadAss]

The alps ducky wasn't that bad, it just had some very rattly stabilizers. I got to try one with matrias switches transplanted in it and it wasn't bad.

The 1087XM's PCB is horrible. It feels like the pads are spraypainted on. The stock switches are meh. Either linear or this weird crunchy feeling. The caps are horrific, really thin ABS and I think they're pad printed or lasered. The case top is a complete joke; ultra flimsy. Like dorkvader said, the stabilizer were bad. And the rest of the case is so cheap feeling and light. The plate is some really cheap and thin steel I think since it bent when I tried to remove a switch. I didn't even apply that much pressure...

I really really don't like that keyboard. There's no redeeming qualities besides the layout imo.

[Grimey]

Well, the 1087XM was pretty cheap if nothing else.

In fact I actually didn't mind the switches for typing (Clickey Tactile only tried), and I sold mine to a co-worker with Dell AT101W caps transplanted.  Co-worker has enjoyed her 1087XM for probably 10 months now at this point, so my experience was quite different (but subjective of course).

EDIT: wow this got off topic, on topic I have never tried any cherry clones.

[FoxWolf1]

Or should I get a Ducky alps 1087 instead?

^ Do not buy Ducky 10__XM. Very low build quality, and the switch is not as good as other ALPS-style switches. I had a 1008XM...never again. Based on reviews of keyboards with current generation Kailh switches, they're probably a much better choice. Haven't heard much feedback yet about other MX-compatibles (Gaote, Greetech, etc.).

[microsoft windows]

How much cheaper are the clones compared to the actual Cherry key switches?

[davkol]

The switches themselves could be okay, but they're usually present on relatively cheap Chinese "gaming" keyboards.

At least some Keycool, Noppoo or PLUM keyboards have decent keycaps if nothing else. What about the others though? What about PCBs and cases?

I mean, do you remember the old iOne-made blackwidows or xarmors? These had genuine Cherry MX switches, but sucked anyway.

[SpAmRaY]

How much cheaper are the clones compared to the actual Cherry key switches?

From what I've seen prices are pretty much the same for finished keyboards.

[davkol]

That might mean only bigger margins though.

[smolid]

Thanks for the warning info about the Ducky 1087XM's.

I read that Chinese brands are having trouble sourcing cherry switches because there isn't enough to go around apparently. So keycool has a slightly cheaper Hero model.

The Newmen GM-10 is ~USD35 not including shipping on chinese websites.

[FoxWolf1]

The Newmen GM-10 is ~USD35 not including shipping on chinese websites.

GM-10 has been around for a while, though...it's got linear blue switches and has existed since before all of these newer Kailhs that follow Cherry color-coding. I don't have enough information to determine if the linear blues are of the same quality level as current Kailhs.

Interestingly, Newmen lately has been releasing some more upmarket products than previously. The keyboard they have that is part of that is the "GM500" model, and for that, they chose real Cherry MX red. Of course, that could just be for marketing reasons...

[rowdy]

It seems to me that Kailh might have been a marginal switch maker for small markets, or markets where low quality products were acceptable.

Now that they have aligned with big named keyboard manufacturers, like Razer, their quality must have improved.  I don't think Razer would voluntarily take a further hit to their quality.

[Findecanor]

^ Do not buy Ducky 10__XM. Very low build quality, and the switch is not as good as other ALPS-style switches.

Is it just the switches? What is your opinion on the rest of the keyboard?
If you got the Ducky/XM keyboard for a very low price, could it be worth it to replace the switches with Matias switches do you think?

[FoxWolf1]

^ Do not buy Ducky 10__XM. Very low build quality, and the switch is not as good as other ALPS-style switches.

Is it just the switches? What is your opinion on the rest of the keyboard?
If you got the Ducky/XM keyboard for a very low price, could it be worth it to replace the switches with Matias switches do you think?

No, the rest of the keyboard is also bad. PCB is poor (pads/traces come off easily), plate is poor (too flexible; not a good combination with the low-quality PCB), case is poor (lots of wobble in mine), keycaps are poor (lettering fades quickly). The $15 MicroConnectors mechanical I bought afterwards felt like a quality product in comparison (though it was only 2KRO, unlike the Ducky).

Lifespan of mine was only a few months due to the above issues.

[dante]

Leopold FC200R Lite is another garbage Alps board.  Even the cheapest of the cheap MX boards are superior in quality.

[Daniel Beardsmore]

Leopold FC200R Lite is another garbage Alps board.  Even the cheapest of the cheap MX boards are superior in quality.

That's a new one on me. Another one where there seem to be no photos of the switches anywhere.

[Oobly]

Leopold FC200R Lite is another garbage Alps board.  Even the cheapest of the cheap MX boards are superior in quality.

That's a new one on me. Another one where there seem to be no photos of the switches anywhere.

http://f1nkl.tistory.com/26

Linear Green Alps?

I would still stay clear of the clones for a while longer until we have enough boards out in the wild to get a better picture of their longer term durability and feel. From some reports they seem to be quite acceptable when new, but time may yet tell.

Then again, I may just buy some loose switches myself just to try them out. I don't like to support a company that's jumping on Cherry's bandwagon without paying their dues to Cherry, though (directly copying the design, even the stem colours, sometimes selling them on boards where a newb could easily get fooled into thinking they're Cherry due to having heard of "Blue" or "Red" mechanical switches before).

[Puddsy]

the clones are getting better

but real MX is still king

[Daniel Beardsmore]

http://f1nkl.tistory.com/26

Linear Green Alps?

Those will be transplanted switches; those haven't been sold for a very long time.

[dantan]

the clones are getting better

but real MX is still king

I worked on a Razer with orange Kailh switches and they felt very good. Don't know about reliability though; never used it long enough. I think it is their attempt to replace a Cherry brown. Maybe we need time to find out.

[katushkin]

I'm currently test driving a Keycool K5 with Kalih clones of the MX Blues. I'll be putting out a review soon. They're actually not as bad as I originally thought.

DON'T get the Ducky 1087XM. I think it's the worst keyboard I've ever bought.

I'm crossing everything hoping that the Keycools are still good. Then I can keep recommending them to people

[rowdy]

I'm currently test driving a Keycool K5 with Kalih clones of the MX Blues. I'll be putting out a review soon. They're actually not as bad as I originally thought.

DON'T get the Ducky 1087XM. I think it's the worst keyboard I've ever bought.

I'm crossing everything hoping that the Keycools are still good. Then I can keep recommending them to people

My KeyCool is still going strong - if the only thing they have changed is the switches, and if the switches are of a good quality, there should still be some hope.

[johndavis33]

I don't think Razer would voluntarily take a further hit to their quality.

...Really?

Are we thinking of the same Razer?

[rowdy]

I don't think Razer would voluntarily take a further hit to their quality.

...Really?

Are we thinking of the same Razer?

The switches are about the only high quality part of the keyboard.

Were

[Hak Foo]

FWIW, the caps on the Ducky 1008XM are laser-engraved with a fill.  The fill is crappy, of low-contrast, and wears out so after a year or so you have a nearly blank key.

The plate's very thin, and a fair number of the pads pulled up when I desoldered mine.  I don't blame the board per se, because desoldering is not my forte.

The case will self-destruct-- stripping screw holes-- very easily.

OTOH, it's one of the few boards out there offering USB, a 104 layout, and NKRO that takes ALPS switches.  The only thing I can think of that compares is the impossible-to-find Leeku 3000.

[Andy_Nixeus]

the kailh keys are well made and is on par with other key switches. theres only a slight variance in feel between them. i compared this with our own Nixeus Moda brown switch mech keyboard to CM storm brown switch.

[Computer-Lab in Basement]

I think the real question here is how their longevity is in comparison to Cherrys, which is something we won't exactly know yet, since they haven't been around long enough to be thoroughly tested for that.

[davkol]

Is such data available for other switches? What kind of data is it supposed to be anyway?

The only hint would be (a) hundreds or thousands of Amazon reviews complaining about broken switches, (b) insight into manufacturing/QA processes or (c) adoption of these switches in heavy-use setting (provided some info about reliability would be available to the public somehow). That's a problem though.

I've read about Cherry's and Topre's processes, it appeared impressive. Cherry Corp. and some of its facilities have been awarded for quality (no idea if these awards were trustworthy). Cherry MX switches are widely used in POS boards, there must be plenty of statistics... somewhere. However, I don't see any of that happening in case of Kailh, unless some insider info appears from a reliable source. Gaote might be a bit easier though, if Matias collaborates with them.

[peter.nixeus]

Is such data available for other switches? What kind of data is it supposed to be anyway?

The only hint would be (a) hundreds or thousands of Amazon reviews complaining about broken switches, (b) insight into manufacturing/QA processes or (c) adoption of these switches in heavy-use setting (provided some info about reliability would be available to the public somehow). That's a problem though.

I've read about Cherry's and Topre's processes, it appeared impressive. Cherry Corp. and some of its facilities have been awarded for quality (no idea if these awards were trustworthy). Cherry MX switches are widely used in POS boards, there must be plenty of statistics... somewhere. However, I don't see any of that happening in case of Kailh, unless some insider info appears from a reliable source. Gaote might be a bit easier though, if Matias collaborates with them.

Hi Everyone,

We appreciate everyone's feedback and concerns.

If it is okay, I can provide some input on these "Newer" Kailh switches.   

During the product development phase, we have tested several different MX Compatible switches from different manufacturers and we decided to go with these "newer" Kailh switches for our first mechanical keyboard due to better quality/durability than the others.

We are confident enough in these switches that we are backing them up with a three year warranty, which is equal to or more than most other mechanical switch keyboard brands.

[nubbinator]

Hi Everyone,

We appreciate everyone's feedback and concerns.

If it is okay, I can provide some input on these "Newer" Kailh switches.   

During the product development phase, we have tested several different MX Compatible switches from different manufacturers and we decided to go with these "newer" Kailh switches for our first mechanical keyboard due to better quality/durability than the others.

We are confident enough in these switches that we are backing them up with a three year warranty, which is equal to or more than most other mechanical switch keyboard brands.

Not to sound rude, but the three year warranty doesn't mean that you have confidence in the switch.  A warranty is a rational analysis of product life and costs of the product.  It means that you have confidence that any increase in defectiveness and servicing of the product will be below the difference in money saved by switching from Cherry to Kaihl.  Since your Moda is identical to the Zalman ZM-K500 and Genius M1 and is just an OEM board with different brands, odds are the costs are much lower than going with a Cherry based board.

I'm not bashing the rational business choice that was made, but to say that it's quality and you can tell because of the warranty isn't exactly honest. 

Also, you stated that Kaihl had better quality and durability than other knock offs.  That doesn't tell us how they stand up against Cherry brand switches.  If you could show they stand up to Cherry quality, I would buy some in a heartbeat.

If you stand behind the quality, tell us the kind of testing you did, the failure rates, and so on that made you decide to back the knock off instead of the original.  That helps us make informed decisions and really see how the switches have progressed.  Currently, I have some Kaihl switches to test, but so far I have not been impressed.

[dantan]

FWIW, the caps on the Ducky 1008XM are laser-engraved with a fill.  The fill is crappy, of low-contrast, and wears out so after a year or so you have a nearly blank key.

The plate's very thin, and a fair number of the pads pulled up when I desoldered mine.  I don't blame the board per se, because desoldering is not my forte.

The case will self-destruct-- stripping screw holes-- very easily.

OTOH, it's one of the few boards out there offering USB, a 104 layout, and NKRO that takes ALPS switches.  The only thing I can think of that compares is the impossible-to-find Leeku 3000.

It sounds as though alps is so good that you must have it even though it is such a lousy keyboard otherwise.

[berserkfan]

May I appeal to people with Kailh switches to try testing one stem with boiling water?

Geekhackers in another thread made have established that the Cherry MX stem is made of POM.

It would be good if the kailh switch could survive unscathed in boiling water. If it is made of POM it won't be a volatile plastic that deteriorates or deforms easily. As long as this is true, the stem itself won't break down.

Of course, there is also the question of what the switch housing is made of, as well as the spring. Poor quality steel springs will rust, non-gold plated leafs will corrode. If everything is made with quality materials and the only low cost things are Chinese labor then I think Kailh switches have a good chance of surviving many years.

[jacobolus]

We are confident enough in these switches that we are backing them up with a three year warranty, which is equal to or more than most other mechanical switch keyboard brands.

Since your Moda is identical to the Zalman ZM-K500 and Genius M1 and is just an OEM board with different brands, odds are the costs are much lower than going with a Cherry based board.

Hey, to be fair, it’s not *identical* to the Zalman. The Moda has extra little markings in the plastic that make it look a bit more like a transformer robot toy, and the keycap legends are a different uglier design. [I guess hiring a graphic designer for a few hours was also out of budget.]

More generally, why are almost all computer keyboard makers so horrifically bad at basic typography? Awful illegible typeface choices, misalignment all over, no kerning, symbols in various styles that don’t make any sense together, mixes of multiple typefaces on different keycaps, odd size inconsistencies, squashed/stretched letterforms, etc. etc. Ugh.

[Hak Foo]

FWIW, the caps on the Ducky 1008XM are laser-engraved with a fill.  The fill is crappy, of low-contrast, and wears out so after a year or so you have a nearly blank key.

The plate's very thin, and a fair number of the pads pulled up when I desoldered mine.  I don't blame the board per se, because desoldering is not my forte.

The case will self-destruct-- stripping screw holes-- very easily.

OTOH, it's one of the few boards out there offering USB, a 104 layout, and NKRO that takes ALPS switches.  The only thing I can think of that compares is the impossible-to-find Leeku 3000.

It sounds as though alps is so good that you must have it even though it is such a lousy keyboard otherwise.

Bingo.  ALPS enthusiasts have to deal with constant compromises and limited choices... but we keep coming back.

[dantan]

FWIW, the caps on the Ducky 1008XM are laser-engraved with a fill.  The fill is crappy, of low-contrast, and wears out so after a year or so you have a nearly blank key.

The plate's very thin, and a fair number of the pads pulled up when I desoldered mine.  I don't blame the board per se, because desoldering is not my forte.

The case will self-destruct-- stripping screw holes-- very easily.

OTOH, it's one of the few boards out there offering USB, a 104 layout, and NKRO that takes ALPS switches.  The only thing I can think of that compares is the impossible-to-find Leeku 3000.

It sounds as though alps is so good that you must have it even though it is such a lousy keyboard otherwise.

Bingo.  ALPS enthusiasts have to deal with constant compromises and limited choices... but we keep coming back.

I seriously don't understand you people.

There are not many alps keyboards and the keycap choices are very, very few. And the quality is also lower by reputation. Just what makes alps so good for some people? If you tell me I might become a convert too.

[nubbinator]

I seriously don't understand you people.

There are not many alps keyboards and the keycap choices are very, very few. And the quality is also lower by reputation. Just what makes alps so good for some people? If you tell me I might become a convert too.

The quality of Alps is not lower in any way.  Some of the switches don't feel great, but others feel awesome.  Linear Alps are, IMO, superior in smoothness to linear MX switches.  Orange Alps are fantastic feeling as well and are the closest mechanical switch in feel to Topre.  Blue Alps are probably some of the best clicky switches out there, though I'm partial to click modded Orange Alps over Blue Alps and others swear by White Alps. 

If the only Alps you've tried are clones or Black Alps, you'll have a poor impression of them.  Once you try a good switch, you'll start to see why some people (like me) have become Alps converts.

Yes, there is less customization, but they are such fun switches.

[False_Dmitry_II]

I seriously don't understand you people.

There are not many alps keyboards and the keycap choices are very, very few. And the quality is also lower by reputation. Just what makes alps so good for some people? If you tell me I might become a convert too.

There is a somewhat limited selection currently. But it doesn't matter, because Alps are awesome. There are also several custom ones in the works, mainly 60%. Keycap choice, at least by material will be going up if Matias has anything to say about it. There's also at least one RGB LED Matias switch keyboard on the horizon.

Currently my favorite Alps is a Dell AT101 which I've placed Clicky Matias switches into. I don't actually use any MX normally, just Alps and other various switch types.

[Matias]

I seriously don't understand you people.

There are not many alps keyboards and the keycap choices are very, very few. And the quality is also lower by reputation. Just what makes alps so good for some people? If you tell me I might become a convert too.

There is a somewhat limited selection currently. But it doesn't matter, because Alps are awesome. There are also several custom ones in the works, mainly 60%. Keycap choice, at least by material will be going up if Matias has anything to say about it. There's also at least one RGB LED Matias switch keyboard on the horizon.

BTW, there's a German group that's been talking to us about doing an RGB TKL...

https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=de&tl=en&js=y&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.computerbase.de%2Fforum%2Fshowthread.php%3Ft%3D1395176&edit-text=