[IC] PuLSE SA Keyset (GET YOUR WALLET! - GB LIVE SEPT 8th 12:00 PST)

[MiTo]

First Captain, I did bother making this discussion thread instead of launching a GB for an insane amount of reasons. Which I will list below.

Initially the PuLSE keyset was created to be applied on DCS keycaps. So, I came here to ask which kits people wanted, which keycaps, which colors, icons, legends. Some people mentioned Cherry Legends and we tried that out and also, that it would be great on SA Profile and that's why I considered it. By that time, I wasn't aware that I could select SA Profiles for each row with SP. This is not clear on their website and I thought that every single SA keyset produced by them featured a standard 1-2-3-3-3-3-4 or something like that.

So are we still discussing profiles or are you set on SA? Just because another buy did it doesn't mean you have to. And are you attached to the September date for a particular reason?

By that time, Bunny and others showed up here throwing stuff at me because I was lacking key details regarding a SA groupbuy and by that point, things escalated to what you saw today.

They claim they were trying to help, but they did it on the worst possible way, by criticizing my personna and by saying that I should reconsider everything, quit, buy SA keysets to try them out (oh ok, let me just pay $500 for a few keysets in order to start a GB, who the hell does that, probably someone but not me, seriously). That wasn't needed. Instead of doing this, why they didn't talk to me in a decent way?

Like:

"Hey  MiTo, maybe you're not aware, but SA Profile setups can be done in whatever the way you want to. And you know what, 1-2-3-3-3-4 is good but a lot of people dislike it. Let me tell you the options we've got."

Also, instead of talking to me properly regarding the hashbaz stuff (Cherry Legends ownership) they again did it on the worst possible manner. But I won't talk about that because it's in the past.

If you're talking about research on Profiles, here's my opinion. This keyset is meant to be a good fit to everybody. Typists, gamers, enthusiasts, collectors. Everyone. And I think that the balance between the setups and these people general tastes, is a good 1-2-3-3-3-4. This is what SP will be able to produce on September 8th, it would look great and feel good do use (I simply believe it will, if it's not good, why other keysets with this profile were a success?).

I really don't care about your drama and how you chose deal with it. I don't think you dealt with it that well and frankly, you could have left it to PMs if you didn't want to deal with it.

Regarding the ghetto setup, I will try to be as clear as I can.

In my understanding, every single keycap on a row gotta be on the same profile because that's what they're meant to be. You don't mix it. I understand that Honeywell, 7bit, or whatever did mix them and it was looking and feeling good at the end, but I can't see why we would do that here. Row 3 and 4 from the pictures I've seen (and I spent the entire night last night looking at them) are not THAT different when it comes to FEEL. I simply believe that making a row 4 shift row with row 3 shift keys is kind of a improvisation. And I don't want to make improvisation or so-so things with PuLSE. I want something classy, solid, remarkable.

Please, let me know if I missed something.

*Looking* at keycaps and typing on them are two different things. Have you ever typed on a set of SA? What were your thoughts about it? Did you prefer the 1-1-2-3-4-3 to the 1-2-3-3-3-4 layout? Or do you like DCS? I really can't figure out what you're into other than a sudden post saying it's SA and this layout. And since this is your project and buy, it would be nice to see what you'd like in keycaps other than the looks.

Yes I did on an industrial terminal (cabinetry company) and I don't know which profile it had. The keycaps were curved, the "Alphas" of the machine were flat and it was easy to use. That's what I can say. I like all of the profiles, DCS, DSA, all of them look good and feel good. I want something good to use and beautiful to the eyes, nothing else.

[divito]

Just noticed the interest check page at PMK still notes Cherry Replica Font; might want to have that edited so people voting aren't mislead.

[MiTo]

Just noticed the interest check page at PMK still notes Cherry Replica Font; might want to have that edited so people voting aren't mislead.

Good point, my bad.

[jdcarpe]

Check out the images in this thread and tell me if the row 3 Shifts with the row 4 keycaps looks "ghetto" to you. (This was before 7bit had SP make new molds to fix the odd sizes of the Shift keys). This keycap set was Round 4 Spherical, or "Space Cadet," which was 3-1-2-3-4-3.

I'm hoping this is still up for discussion, as it does specifically pertain the the keyset here.

http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=46286.0

Specifically, these images (all images credit to eth0s):

[MiTo]

Check out the images in this thread and tell me if the row 3 Shifts with the row 4 keycaps looks "ghetto" to you. (This was before 7bit had SP make new molds to fix the odd sizes of the Shift keys). This keycap set was Round 4 Spherical, or "Space Cadet," which was 3-1-2-3-4-3.

I'm hoping this is still up for discussion, as it does specifically pertain the the keyset here.

http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=46286.0

Specifically, these images (all images credit to eth0s):

Show Image

Show Image

Show Image

JD, your efforts towards this thread are amazing. I'm so happy you still with us! Look at the inputs you've been doing, most of them are great. I've got great news to you, check OP. And yes, it looks ghetto to me. But I can see the classic feel you guys want PuLSE to have and clearly, it's an option. Let's see what others think.

Should we really consider Row 3 Shift keys on a Row 4 row?

[MiTo]

MASSIVE UPDATE, BREAKING NEWS, STOP EVERYTHING YOU'RE DOING AND GO READ IT!

Check OP.

[JinDesu]

Just for clarity, price shown for base is $79/67 at MOQ of 25/50? Or 50/100?

I have no issues with Row 4 with Row 3 shift.

[MiTo]

Just for clarity, price shown for base is $79/67 at MOQ of 25/50? Or 50/100?

I have no issues with Row 4 with Row 3 shift.

25/50.

EDIT: Added 25/50 info to OP. Row 4 with Row 3 Shift being ok is getting more attention.

[jdcarpe]

So, in my view, there are four groups of people who are interested in this keyset:

1. Those who want traditional sculpted, i.e. 3-1-2-3-4-3 row profiles, and won't buy if otherwise;

2. Those who want a modified sculpted, to match the row 3 Shifts, with uniform alphas, i.e. 1-2-3-3-3-4, and won't buy otherwise;

3. Those who want uniform row 3 throughout the set;

and

4. Those who just like SA-profile, like the colorway, and don't care about the specifics.

Myself and several others who have spoken in support of the traditional sculpted approach are obviously in group 1. MiTo, you seem to be in group 2, with an unknown number of others, we haven't heard from anyone in group 3 to my knowledge, and the VAST MAJORITY of prospective buyers are likely in group 4.

So what you have to weigh is, will the orders you lose by excluding the members of group 1 or 2 be significant enough to affect MOQ or pricing? They might be. Unfortunately, I don't really have a good solution for gauging what the numbers are in each group.

[MiTo]

So, in my view, there are four groups of people who are interested in this keyset:

1. Those who want traditional sculpted, i.e. 3-1-2-3-4-3 row profiles, and won't buy if otherwise;

2. Those who want a modified sculpted, to match the row 3 Shifts, with uniform alphas, i.e. 1-2-3-3-3-4, and won't buy otherwise;

3. Those who want uniform row 3 throughout the set;

and

4. Those who just like SA-profile, like the colorway, and don't care about the specifics.

Myself and several others who have spoken in support of the traditional sculpted approach are obviously in group 1. MiTo, you seem to be in group 2, with an unknown number of others, we haven't heard from anyone in group 3 to my knowledge, and the VAST MAJORITY of prospective buyers are likely in group 4.

So what you have to weigh is, will the orders you lose by excluding the members of group 1 or 2 be significant enough to affect MOQ or pricing? They might be. Unfortunately, I don't really have a good solution for gauging what the numbers are in each group.

I believe that when it comes to MOQ, group 4 and 1 could go together. Group 3 and 2 would most likely hop on the hype train since they are the minority.

[taylordcraig]

I may be a total noob, but I'm comparing my Penumbra;
the shifts seem hardly different [barely noticeable next to each other on a table from the other mods.
Different row shifts on 3-1-2-3-4-3 doesn't seem to matter much to me.

[MiTo]

I posted on PMK that the set is gonna be 2-1-2-3-4-3 SA Profile. Just to see if there's anyone aware of that there.

We are getting close to change PuLSE to 2-1-2-3-4-3 or 3-1-2-3-4-3 SA.

[MiTo]

I'm going to stay away from home for the next two days but I'll try to come here at night. Please, discuss about 2-1-2-3-4-3 or 3-1-2-3-4-3.

JD, tell me if you think that people on group 1 would accept 2-1-2-3-4-3.

Let's go guys, keep voting until Aug 27th.

[jdcarpe]

JD, tell me if you think that people on group 1 would accept 2-1-2-3-4-3.

I don't think it's going to keep the group 1 people from buying if the set ends up as 2-1-2-3-4-3, but neither would 1-1-2-3-4-3, or 1-1-2-3-4-4. I suggested row 3 for the top row so that people can use novelties, including the novelties in this very buy. Row 3 would probably match better with artisan caps on the F-row, as well, such as Clacks and Bro Caps.

[MiTo]

JD, tell me if you think that people on group 1 would accept 2-1-2-3-4-3.

I don't think it's going to keep the group 1 people from buying if the set ends up as 2-1-2-3-4-3, but neither would 1-1-2-3-4-3, or 1-1-2-3-4-4. I suggested row 3 for the top row so that people can use novelties, including the novelties in this very buy. Row 3 would probably match better with artisan caps on the F-row, as well, such as Clacks and Bro Caps.

Clack sand Bro Caps are a huge thing to consider. As they are kinda flat, a Row 3 on the top would be the perfect balance apparently. Gasmasks and stuff like that would fit well.

Does a significant amount of people have anything against 3-1-2-3-4-3?

We've got some days to decide this final detail. After that, we can move to the finish we will adopt and that's it, we're done. Also, make sure to submit your requests to the Ergopack and other packs here.

[taylordcraig]

I don't own any bros or clacks.
Could someone that owns either a bro or clack and an SA set take a picture of R3 next to an artisan cap? side and top view

[jdcarpe]

This is BunnyLake's image:




Now that is Calm Depths, so those numbers are row 2, with the Clack next to it, and it looks kinda strange with the angle of the row 2 caps.

[feizor]

The updated pricing is much more attractive! Do we need to vote again if we have already voted previously?

[MiTo]

This is BunnyLake's image:

Show Image

Now that is Calm Depths, so those numbers are row 2, with the Clack next to it, and it looks kinda strange with the angle of the row 2 caps.

Definitely looks weird. The little angle broke the symmetry. /r/MK apparently like 3-1-2-3-4-3.

[jdcarpe]

This is BunnyLake's image:

Show Image

Now that is Calm Depths, so those numbers are row 2, with the Clack next to it, and it looks kinda strange with the angle of the row 2 caps.

Definitely looks weird. The little angle broke the symmetry. /r/MK apparently like 3-1-2-3-4-3.

Also, I personally think it looks somewhat strange to have the entire bottom row at an angle (row 4), with the flatter row 3 spacebar (only option for spacebar).

[scubaste]

Hey folks long time lurker, but I believe I've caught the KB Fever. I've been following a couple of threads related to this group buy and initially I was mostly interested because the color was something I'd like to have. Although some of the comments got a little 'tense', it seems like all of the interest/discussion/opinions have really pushed this into a more interesting direction.

Props to MiTo on the keycap layout and being persistent. Great input from GH on top of that. I can't give much in the way of personal experience when it comes to the profile discussion, this will be my first SA set. Regardless, I feel like a strong argument has been made for sculpted alphas like jdcarpe recommended on page 7 of this thread. Is it possible that a Clack Artisans out there may make something that fit a 3-1-2-3-4-3 set up in the future? Maybe that is a consideration when it comes to catering to the standard clack profile. Admittedly, I don't know the limitations.

4. Those who just like SA-profile, like the colorway, and don't care about the specifics.

Ultimately I am in this category, but you have my continued interest.

[SL89]

This is BunnyLake's image:

Show Image

Now that is Calm Depths, so those numbers are row 2, with the Clack next to it, and it looks kinda strange with the angle of the row 2 caps.

Definitely looks weird. The little angle broke the symmetry. /r/MK apparently like 3-1-2-3-4-3.

Also, I personally think it looks somewhat strange to have the entire bottom row at an angle (row 4), with the flatter row 3 spacebar (only option for spacebar).

JD, i know they have Row 4 shift molds in the works, but do you know if there is a 'Row 5' profile for the spacebar / mods or will they generally remain Row 3

[jdcarpe]

This is BunnyLake's image:

Show Image

Now that is Calm Depths, so those numbers are row 2, with the Clack next to it, and it looks kinda strange with the angle of the row 2 caps.

Definitely looks weird. The little angle broke the symmetry. /r/MK apparently like 3-1-2-3-4-3.

Also, I personally think it looks somewhat strange to have the entire bottom row at an angle (row 4), with the flatter row 3 spacebar (only option for spacebar).

JD, i know they have Row 4 shift molds in the works, but do you know if there is a 'Row 5' profile for the spacebar / mods or will they generally remain Row 3

No, not that I know of. I think the angle would be a bit extreme for a "Row 5." :D

Row 4 spacebar would be nice, but I don't know of any plans for that, either.

Once they get the molds made for the row 4 Shifts, I think we will have pretty much everything we need for SA, going forward.

And, as I stated previously, even if SP doesn't have the row 4 Shift molds done by the time these go into production (they might!), there could always be a "Shift Key" GB later on, just for those in this colorway.

[SL89]

thank you for that clarification JD

[Badwrench]

JD, tell me if you think that people on group 1 would accept 2-1-2-3-4-3.

I don't think it's going to keep the group 1 people from buying if the set ends up as 2-1-2-3-4-3, but neither would 1-1-2-3-4-3, or 1-1-2-3-4-4. I suggested row 3 for the top row so that people can use novelties, including the novelties in this very buy. Row 3 would probably match better with artisan caps on the F-row, as well, such as Clacks and Bro Caps.

This.  I fall into group 1 as well.  SA should have a classic feel to it, which having a fully sculped set would achieve.  A single key GB later (if the mold is not done while in production) would be a simple thing. 

[Emmiya]

As part of group 4, with those new price-points im 100% in

[MiTo]

Found a bit of 3G here, I think that by this point we should indeed adopt the 3-1-2-3-4-3 profile and a future Shift only GB if needed. The statement JD made about the Clacks is really strong in my POV. I want to listen what others think about it and also, I need details about the Ergodox as some people requested more keycaps for it.

If you guys need more novelties on a specific row, let me now. Somebody on /r/MK requested a Row 2 extra Esc key because of the Poker II layout. Just let me know in the next couple of days.

[Badwrench]

Found a bit of 3G here, I think that by this point we should indeed adopt the 3-1-2-3-4-3 profile and a future Shift only GB if needed. The statement JD made about the Clacks is really strong in my POV. I want to listen what others think about it and also, I need details about the Ergodox as some people requested more keycaps for it.

If you guys need more novelties on a specific row, let me now. Somebody on /r/MK requested a Row 2 extra Esc key because of the Poker II layout. Just let me know in the next couple of days.

My only real recommendation is to also include an additional ~ and \ key in the same color as the alphas in the base set.  I know you were going for the whole symmetry look, but it just looks wrong to me.  Those keys are not function keys, so to my eye they should match the alphas. 

[ccc24]

Found a bit of 3G here, I think that by this point we should indeed adopt the 3-1-2-3-4-3 profile and a future Shift only GB if needed. The statement JD made about the Clacks is really strong in my POV. I want to listen what others think about it and also, I need details about the Ergodox as some people requested more keycaps for it.

If you guys need more novelties on a specific row, let me now. Somebody on /r/MK requested a Row 2 extra Esc key because of the Poker II layout. Just let me know in the next couple of days.

I think the ergodox set is fine, as long as you include a child buy for the blanks in the various sizes. And to separate the ergodox set from those blanks, would legends on the current setup be possible?

[justnits]

My only real recommendation is to also include an additional ~ and \ key in the same color as the alphas in the base set.  I know you were going for the whole symmetry look, but it just looks wrong to me.  Those keys are not function keys, so to my eye they should match the alphas. 

^ +1
this.

Found a bit of 3G here, I think that by this point we should indeed adopt the 3-1-2-3-4-3 profile and a future Shift only GB if needed. The statement JD made about the Clacks is really strong in my POV. I want to listen what others think about it and also, I need details about the Ergodox as some people requested more keycaps for it.

If you guys need more novelties on a specific row, let me now. Somebody on /r/MK requested a Row 2 extra Esc key because of the Poker II layout. Just let me know in the next couple of days.

just like to highlight something to you since you requested for more details regarding ergodox.

assuming if you are going for the 3-1-2-3-4-3 layout, this is what the average ergodox user will be having in their doxes.
see all those blue 1u keys? it's not included in the ergodox kit because i think someone mentioned to you that we don't need it as those can be replaced with novelty keys by using matt's granite set as reference point.
but i have to disagree with that whole point of not including blank 1u keys in the ergodox kit because, looking at the picture and looking at your novelty keys and the non-symmetrical layout rows, you'll see the problem.
we'll have grand canyons at the bottom row with mixed keys from different row due to the highly customizable nature of ergodox.

EDIT: the 1u blanks on the dox can be GEW colour as well...doesn't have to be BBJ, its up to you to design it. i'm just putting all of the essential ergodox key to BBJ to indicate them.

again, i've no experience with SA keyset on ergodox but i have used OEM/Filco layout on ergodox and it isn't that pretty and even worse if you have a bit of OCD like me
people who uses SA keys on ergodox, do kindly step forward with your inputs if there's any.

on another note regarding the problem for 60% boards seeing the profile for num row is 1 (assuming 3-1-2-3-4-3)
how about having a separate kit for 60%? like row 3 for the whole stretch of numrow (including row 3 backspace) so your cc and bb and whatever novelty doesn't look awkward on 60% boards with SA  )

[Manchias]

This is BunnyLake's image:

Show Image

Now that is Calm Depths, so those numbers are row 2, with the Clack next to it, and it looks kinda strange with the angle of the row 2 caps.

 Looks weird. The Clack looks totally different with all the other keys. I mean about the height and the angle.

[Elrick]

If you guys need more novelties on a specific row, let me now. Somebody on /r/MK requested a Row 2 extra Esc key because of the Poker II layout. Just let me know in the next couple of days.

Great you're offering extra 'novelty keys' because this is after all Geekhack  .

Be fully aware though that 'if' the prices start rising on these then we'll see who are the real lovers of this key-set design and whether it'll indeed tip in time.  The 'Nuclear Set' is cheap hence it's numbers have increased substantially and it looks like an easy tipping point to reach.  The main reason for this would have to be the low price point that offers a whole set of keys to fill 80% of standard keyboards out there.

You'll need to decide whether you want to appeal to full on customizers or newbies wanting to decorate their keyboard for the first time.

[MiTo]

If you guys need more novelties on a specific row, let me now. Somebody on /r/MK requested a Row 2 extra Esc key because of the Poker II layout. Just let me know in the next couple of days.

Great you're offering extra 'novelty keys' because this is after all Geekhack  .

Be fully aware though that 'if' the prices start rising on these then we'll see who are the real lovers of this key-set design and whether it'll indeed tip in time.  The 'Nuclear Set' is cheap hence it's numbers have increased substantially and it looks like an easy tipping point to reach.  The main reason for this would have to be the low price point that offers a whole set of keys to fill 80% of standard keyboards out there.

You'll need to decide whether you want to appeal to full on customizers or newbies wanting to decorate their keyboard for the first time.

Instead of adding the Row 1 Esc keycap (for 60% users) I think it's right to add a 60% Stripe Pack to the keyset. It's gonna feature an entire number row on row 3, specially for the 60%ers.

[LechnerDE]

Reading a bit more about the posssible rows I might give SA another chance.

I really like the looks of my Commando 23 set, but I simply don't like typing on it.

Maybe I like the 3-1-2-3-4-3 setup more?!

[MiTo]

The updated pricing is much more attractive! Do we need to vote again if we have already voted previously?

Probably not, but more votes would be nice. We gotta keep pushing it forward!

[MiTo]

Reading a bit more about the posssible rows I might give SA another chance.

I really like the looks of my Commando 23 set, but I simply don't like typing on it.

Maybe I like the 3-1-2-3-4-3 setup more?!

Leave the gun, pick the canolli.

[MiTo]

Hey folks long time lurker, but I believe I've caught the KB Fever. I've been following a couple of threads related to this group buy and initially I was mostly interested because the color was something I'd like to have. Although some of the comments got a little 'tense', it seems like all of the interest/discussion/opinions have really pushed this into a more interesting direction.

Props to MiTo on the keycap layout and being persistent. Great input from GH on top of that. I can't give much in the way of personal experience when it comes to the profile discussion, this will be my first SA set. Regardless, I feel like a strong argument has been made for sculpted alphas like jdcarpe recommended on page 7 of this thread. Is it possible that a Clack Artisans out there may make something that fit a 3-1-2-3-4-3 set up in the future? Maybe that is a consideration when it comes to catering to the standard clack profile. Admittedly, I don't know the limitations.

4. Those who just like SA-profile, like the colorway, and don't care about the specifics.

Ultimately I am in this category, but you have my continued interest.

You're very welcome to the discussion, I'm also new here!

About the Clacks, I believe that they can fit nicely on Row 3. Gotta hear from owners though.

[MiTo]

JD, tell me if you think that people on group 1 would accept 2-1-2-3-4-3.

I don't think it's going to keep the group 1 people from buying if the set ends up as 2-1-2-3-4-3, but neither would 1-1-2-3-4-3, or 1-1-2-3-4-4. I suggested row 3 for the top row so that people can use novelties, including the novelties in this very buy. Row 3 would probably match better with artisan caps on the F-row, as well, such as Clacks and Bro Caps.

This.  I fall into group 1 as well.  SA should have a classic feel to it, which having a fully sculped set would achieve.  A single key GB later (if the mold is not done while in production) would be a simple thing.

For this reason I want to go 3-1-2-3-4-3. Seems the obvious choice right now. After taking a closer look on the pictures, I believe that collectors, gamers and typists would be ok with this setup. Space Cadet was a good example and the Clacks POV is also really strong.

[MiTo]

Found a bit of 3G here, I think that by this point we should indeed adopt the 3-1-2-3-4-3 profile and a future Shift only GB if needed. The statement JD made about the Clacks is really strong in my POV. I want to listen what others think about it and also, I need details about the Ergodox as some people requested more keycaps for it.

If you guys need more novelties on a specific row, let me now. Somebody on /r/MK requested a Row 2 extra Esc key because of the Poker II layout. Just let me know in the next couple of days.

My only real recommendation is to also include an additional ~ and \ key in the same color as the alphas in the base set.  I know you were going for the whole symmetry look, but it just looks wrong to me.  Those keys are not function keys, so to my eye they should match the alphas.

As you wish! Will add those keys to the Base Set.

I'm picking the most interesting inputs and considering them.

[MiTo]

Found a bit of 3G here, I think that by this point we should indeed adopt the 3-1-2-3-4-3 profile and a future Shift only GB if needed. The statement JD made about the Clacks is really strong in my POV. I want to listen what others think about it and also, I need details about the Ergodox as some people requested more keycaps for it.

If you guys need more novelties on a specific row, let me now. Somebody on /r/MK requested a Row 2 extra Esc key because of the Poker II layout. Just let me know in the next couple of days.

I think the ergodox set is fine, as long as you include a child buy for the blanks in the various sizes. And to separate the ergodox set from those blanks, would legends on the current setup be possible?

I don't want to split the Ergo too much. Want it as condensed as possible, so it can easily tip. You are recommending me to add legended mods to it? I'm sorry, but when it comes to Ergo, I need an ELI5.

[LechnerDE]

Found a bit of 3G here, I think that by this point we should indeed adopt the 3-1-2-3-4-3 profile and a future Shift only GB if needed. The statement JD made about the Clacks is really strong in my POV. I want to listen what others think about it and also, I need details about the Ergodox as some people requested more keycaps for it.

If you guys need more novelties on a specific row, let me now. Somebody on /r/MK requested a Row 2 extra Esc key because of the Poker II layout. Just let me know in the next couple of days.

My only real recommendation is to also include an additional ~ and \ key in the same color as the alphas in the base set.  I know you were going for the whole symmetry look, but it just looks wrong to me.  Those keys are not function keys, so to my eye they should match the alphas.

As you wish! Will add those keys to the Base Set.

I'm picking the most interesting inputs and considering them.

I thought this was already included?

These two keys always split the community - that's why I strongly recommended to include both options as you can satisfy everyone without adding significant costs and that's why every major GB features both options 

[MiTo]

My only real recommendation is to also include an additional ~ and \ key in the same color as the alphas in the base set.  I know you were going for the whole symmetry look, but it just looks wrong to me.  Those keys are not function keys, so to my eye they should match the alphas. 

^ +1
this.

Found a bit of 3G here, I think that by this point we should indeed adopt the 3-1-2-3-4-3 profile and a future Shift only GB if needed. The statement JD made about the Clacks is really strong in my POV. I want to listen what others think about it and also, I need details about the Ergodox as some people requested more keycaps for it.

If you guys need more novelties on a specific row, let me now. Somebody on /r/MK requested a Row 2 extra Esc key because of the Poker II layout. Just let me know in the next couple of days.

just like to highlight something to you since you requested for more details regarding ergodox.
[ Attachment Invalid Or Does Not Exist ]
assuming if you are going for the 3-1-2-3-4-3 layout, this is what the average ergodox user will be having in their doxes.
see all those blue 1u keys? it's not included in the ergodox kit because i think someone mentioned to you that we don't need it as those can be replaced with novelty keys by using matt's granite set as reference point.
but i have to disagree with that whole point of not including blank 1u keys in the ergodox kit because, looking at the picture and looking at your novelty keys and the non-symmetrical layout rows, you'll see the problem.
we'll have grand canyons at the bottom row with mixed keys from different row due to the highly customizable nature of ergodox.

EDIT: the 1u blanks on the dox can be GEW colour as well...doesn't have to be BBJ, its up to you to design it. i'm just putting all of the essential ergodox key to BBJ to indicate them.

again, i've no experience with SA keyset on ergodox but i have used OEM/Filco layout on ergodox and it isn't that pretty and even worse if you have a bit of OCD like me
people who uses SA keys on ergodox, do kindly step forward with your inputs if there's any.

on another note regarding the problem for 60% boards seeing the profile for num row is 1 (assuming 3-1-2-3-4-3)
how about having a separate kit for 60%? like row 3 for the whole stretch of numrow (including row 3 backspace) so your cc and bb and whatever novelty doesn't look awkward on 60% boards with SA  )

Amazing input mate, that's what I need. As I mentioned, I'm a full noob when it comes to Ergo. But I'm on mobile and can't do much atm. I gotta think and look to a bigger screen to fully understand what you tried to explain. I gotta see what I'll need to change on the ErgoPack looking at the svgs file. I don't know if I gotta add legended mods to it, blanks 1us with specific profiles... I will solve this on Monday.

[taylordcraig]

Yes the off color ~ and \ are important.
row 3 for artisan caps seems important too.

[MiTo]

Found a bit of 3G here, I think that by this point we should indeed adopt the 3-1-2-3-4-3 profile and a future Shift only GB if needed. The statement JD made about the Clacks is really strong in my POV. I want to listen what others think about it and also, I need details about the Ergodox as some people requested more keycaps for it.

If you guys need more novelties on a specific row, let me now. Somebody on /r/MK requested a Row 2 extra Esc key because of the Poker II layout. Just let me know in the next couple of days.

My only real recommendation is to also include an additional ~ and \ key in the same color as the alphas in the base set.  I know you were going for the whole symmetry look, but it just looks wrong to me.  Those keys are not function keys, so to my eye they should match the alphas.

As you wish! Will add those keys to the Base Set.

I'm picking the most interesting inputs and considering them.

I thought this was already included?

These two keys always split the community - that's why I strongly recommended to include both options as you can satisfy everyone without adding significant costs and that's why every major GB features both options 

It was included on the Cherry Legended version I believe, not sure because I'm on mobile and can't check the old mockups. But I'll certainly add those keys to the new Base Set!

[justnits]

Found a bit of 3G here, I think that by this point we should indeed adopt the 3-1-2-3-4-3 profile and a future Shift only GB if needed. The statement JD made about the Clacks is really strong in my POV. I want to listen what others think about it and also, I need details about the Ergodox as some people requested more keycaps for it.

If you guys need more novelties on a specific row, let me now. Somebody on /r/MK requested a Row 2 extra Esc key because of the Poker II layout. Just let me know in the next couple of days.

My only real recommendation is to also include an additional ~ and \ key in the same color as the alphas in the base set.  I know you were going for the whole symmetry look, but it just looks wrong to me.  Those keys are not function keys, so to my eye they should match the alphas.

As you wish! Will add those keys to the Base Set.

I'm picking the most interesting inputs and considering them.

I thought this was already included?

These two keys always split the community - that's why I strongly recommended to include both options as you can satisfy everyone without adding significant costs and that's why every major GB features both options 

really? i thought the one that split the community was winkey  )

My only real recommendation is to also include an additional ~ and \ key in the same color as the alphas in the base set.  I know you were going for the whole symmetry look, but it just looks wrong to me.  Those keys are not function keys, so to my eye they should match the alphas. 

^ +1
this.

Found a bit of 3G here, I think that by this point we should indeed adopt the 3-1-2-3-4-3 profile and a future Shift only GB if needed. The statement JD made about the Clacks is really strong in my POV. I want to listen what others think about it and also, I need details about the Ergodox as some people requested more keycaps for it.

If you guys need more novelties on a specific row, let me now. Somebody on /r/MK requested a Row 2 extra Esc key because of the Poker II layout. Just let me know in the next couple of days.

just like to highlight something to you since you requested for more details regarding ergodox.
(Attachment Link)
assuming if you are going for the 3-1-2-3-4-3 layout, this is what the average ergodox user will be having in their doxes.
see all those blue 1u keys? it's not included in the ergodox kit because i think someone mentioned to you that we don't need it as those can be replaced with novelty keys by using matt's granite set as reference point.
but i have to disagree with that whole point of not including blank 1u keys in the ergodox kit because, looking at the picture and looking at your novelty keys and the non-symmetrical layout rows, you'll see the problem.
we'll have grand canyons at the bottom row with mixed keys from different row due to the highly customizable nature of ergodox.

EDIT: the 1u blanks on the dox can be GEW colour as well...doesn't have to be BBJ, its up to you to design it. i'm just putting all of the essential ergodox key to BBJ to indicate them.

again, i've no experience with SA keyset on ergodox but i have used OEM/Filco layout on ergodox and it isn't that pretty and even worse if you have a bit of OCD like me
people who uses SA keys on ergodox, do kindly step forward with your inputs if there's any.

on another note regarding the problem for 60% boards seeing the profile for num row is 1 (assuming 3-1-2-3-4-3)
how about having a separate kit for 60%? like row 3 for the whole stretch of numrow (including row 3 backspace) so your cc and bb and whatever novelty doesn't look awkward on 60% boards with SA  )

Amazing input mate, that's what I need. As I mentioned, I'm a full noob when it comes to Ergo. But I'm on mobile and can't do much atm. I gotta think and look to a bigger screen to fully understand what you tried to explain. I gotta see what I'll need to change on the ErgoPack looking at the svgs file. I don't know if I gotta add legended mods to it, blanks 1us with specific profiles... I will solve this on Monday.

no problem. if there's anything that you don't understand, can always ask. i'll try to explain if i can 

[MiTo]

Concave J-F for bumps on the Novelty Pack?

[MiTo]

Check out the images in this thread and tell me if the row 3 Shifts with the row 4 keycaps looks "ghetto" to you. (This was before 7bit had SP make new molds to fix the odd sizes of the Shift keys). This keycap set was Round 4 Spherical, or "Space Cadet," which was 3-1-2-3-4-3.

I'm hoping this is still up for discussion, as it does specifically pertain the the keyset here.

http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=46286.0

Specifically, these images (all images credit to eth0s):

Show Image

Show Image

Show Image

JD, do you know if the top arrow on the arrow cluster is Row 4?

[jdcarpe]

Check out the images in this thread and tell me if the row 3 Shifts with the row 4 keycaps looks "ghetto" to you. (This was before 7bit had SP make new molds to fix the odd sizes of the Shift keys). This keycap set was Round 4 Spherical, or "Space Cadet," which was 3-1-2-3-4-3.

I'm hoping this is still up for discussion, as it does specifically pertain the the keyset here.

http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=46286.0

Specifically, these images (all images credit to eth0s):

Show Image

Show Image

Show Image

JD, do you know if the top arrow on the arrow cluster is Row 4?

The UP arrow key should also be in row 3 profile. Good catch!

[MiTo]

Check out the images in this thread and tell me if the row 3 Shifts with the row 4 keycaps looks "ghetto" to you. (This was before 7bit had SP make new molds to fix the odd sizes of the Shift keys). This keycap set was Round 4 Spherical, or "Space Cadet," which was 3-1-2-3-4-3.

I'm hoping this is still up for discussion, as it does specifically pertain the the keyset here.

http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=46286.0

Specifically, these images (all images credit to eth0s):

Show Image

Show Image

Show Image

JD, do you know if the top arrow on the arrow cluster is Row 4?

The UP arrow key should also be in row 3 profile. Good catch!

Symmetry on arrow cluster is indeed important.

EDIT: I'll remove the inverted arrows, because right now we've got texted arrows on blue and iconed arrows on grey (on the novelties). No reason for inverted arrows at this point, I believe.

[pasph]

A good reading about SA arrow cluster
http://deskthority.net/group-buys-f50/spherical-cursor-key-profile-the-poll-t6761.html